Round 4: Papa Grande -vs- Numbers

[D-Man]

Yes or No: Should wrestling fans be allowed to know goes on behind the scenes with WWE, TNA, ROH or any company?

This is a fourth round match in the Debater's League. Papa Grande is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate they will be on and who debates first, but they have 24 hours to make their choice.

This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

Good luck.​

 

[Megatron]

I will argue that they shouldn't know what goes behind the scenes, and Numbers can go first.

 

[a0161613]

In the era of the interwebz and generally advancing technology, people find out more, a lot quicker, than ever before. It’s simple truth. From “inside sources” in politics to a “source close to” something happening in sports, journalism has become speculative; more Chinese whispers behind closed doors than someone coming flat outright and saying it.

You could argue that Kayfabe was broken by the internet. It let the fans in.

Has this affected the wresting industry? Hell yes.

Has this hurt the industry? God no.

Was kayfabe that important? Do you yearn for the days of not knowing what was happening? What negative effect has this had on the wrestling industry? What makes wrestling so different to sport and politics?

Look forward to talking about these points and more.

 

[Megatron]

Before I begin, I wish you good luck Numbers, this looks like an interesting topic.
--------------------------------------
The wrestling business has always had it's share of behind the scene rumors that internet fans seem to find out. However, these fans shouldn't have access to what happens behind the scenes, for a few reasons.

They don't need to know what happens The fans shouldn't be informed of who's dating who, who's a fan of who, or who's fighting with who. These wrestlers have private lives too, and things like that shouldn't be let out to the public if they don't want it to. I'm sure you wouldn't like people know who you're dating/feuding with and such, and it should be the same for professionals. They are people too.

It alters the fans views of the superstars Fans finding out about rumors, such as Triple H having an alleged pull within the copmany, have changed their views on the man. Many people don't like the man because of his 'burial' of superstars, despite them only being rumors. Before these fans found out, they may have been fans of the game. But now that they heard these rumors, they're gonna boo him whenever they get the chance to. I'm not saying they can't boo him if they don't enjoy him, but to boo him for a ridiculous reason backstage shouldn't be why they do. It's bad for the company.

Was kayfabe that important?

I'd say yes. I know I enjoyed the product much more then I do now because I didn't know what was going on backstage. Obviously I knew it wasn't real, but it did suspend my belief, which is what kayfabe is about. And I know there's a whole bunch of people that enjoyed wrestling more before they came on the internet and found of dirt sheets.

Do you yearn for the days of not knowing what was happening?

Yes, because it makes the product more exciting and more must-see TV. Take the Nexus angle, nobody saw it coming, and a lot of people are praising it as a great angle.

What makes wrestling so different to sport and politics?

Because it's a form of entertainment. It's not a sport. Would you like to know the spoilers to an episode of Lost before it happened? No, because then it ruins your excitement and suspension of belief because you know what will happen.

 

[a0161613]

They don't need to know what happens The fans shouldn't be informed of who's dating who, who's a fan of who, or who's fighting with who. These wrestlers have private lives too, and things like that shouldn't be let out to the public if they don't want it to. I'm sure you wouldn't like people know who you're dating/feuding with and such, and it should be the same for professionals. They are people too.

What makes them any different to other celebrities? Film stars have their life exposed on a daily basis.

It alters the fans views of the superstars Fans finding out about rumors, such as Triple H having an alleged pull within the copmany, have changed their views on the man.

I’m one of them but it’s up to the company and the man himself to change their perception.

Many people don't like the man because of his 'burial' of superstars, despite them only being rumors.

Burial on PPV is hardly a rumour.

Before these fans found out, they may have been fans of the game. But now that they heard these rumors, they're gonna boo him whenever they get the chance to. I'm not saying they can't boo him if they don't enjoy him, but to boo him for a ridiculous reason backstage shouldn't be why they do. It's bad for the company.

That’s hardly true. He is still massively popular amongst the non IWC and as they make up the majority of the WWE audience, why should anyone care?

It is up to the superstars themselves to help maintain the public image of the company just like a sports star or actor.

I know I enjoyed the product much more then I do now because I didn't know what was going on backstage. Obviously I knew it wasn't real, but it did suspend my belief, which is what kayfabe is about. And I know there's a whole bunch of people that enjoyed wrestling more before they came on the internet and found of dirt sheets.

You aren’t forced to read kayfabe breaking stories or read the dirt sheets. And if your suspension of disbelief cannot last for two, four or six hours a week, then does that mean you can’t enjoy great TV or films because of the same problem?

Yes, because it makes the product more exciting and more must-see TV. Take the Nexus angle, nobody saw it coming, and a lot of people are praising it as a great angle.

The Nexus angle was huge to begin with and is continuing strongly now. I don’t remember reading any spoilers about it and this very forum was buzzing because of the very fact that WWE kept it very quiet.

Even if we knew about it, I’d say the performers deserve credit for making the angle so much better than it actually could have been. It could have died on its feet. It shows that when WWE works at something, it can achieve something brilliant and inspired, which equals must see TV. Reading the spoilers had no effect and made me want to see it happen even more.

Because it's a form of entertainment. It's not a sport. Would you like to know the spoilers to an episode of Lost before it happened? No, because then it ruins your excitement and suspension of belief because you know what will happen.

Vince would have you believe it is both sports AND entertainment.

A creative angle or a great wrestling match can capture your imagination, keep your excitement and maintain a suspension of disbelief for as long as it needs to. I’m sure plenty of people read spoilers for the last episode of Lost but still read it and enjoyed it.

Knowing what will happen shouldn’t spoil a show, because if you hear great things, it can make you catch up, want to tune in to the next show and keep emotionally involved to the product.

 

[Megatron]

What makes them any different to other celebrities? Film stars have their life exposed on a daily basis.

Many WWE/TNA/ROH superstars are in character when they are out making public appearacnes. The heels, specifically. You won't see Slyvester Stallone act as Rocky or Rambo out in public appearances, because people know that he's not really Rambo. If WWE/TNA/ROH/any superstars want to keep their things private, they should.

I’m one of them but it’s up to the company and the man himself to change their perception.

How? By going out of character on RAW and saying that 'I don't bury superstars. I didn't bang the bosses daughter to get my way to the top.'? That's ridiculous, especially since we don't even know if it's true.

Burial on PPV is hardly a rumour.

If you have a PPV match with HHH that's hardly a burial, win or lose. Just because you lose a match doesn't mean you've been buried.

That’s hardly true. He is still massively popular amongst the non IWC and as they make up the majority of the WWE audience, why should anyone care?

Because you could still get that one little section in the show that decides to boo Triple H for a dumb reason like he buries people backstage. That could ruin the enjoyment for the people around them because of their obnoxiousness.

It is up to the superstars themselves to help maintain the public image of the company just like a sports star or actor.

If fans get that theory that 'All Triple H does is bury guys, like my favorite superstar' then it's kinda hard to change that perception.

You aren’t forced to read kayfabe breaking stories or read the dirt sheets.

Obviously you don't, but anyone on this board will stumble into a spoiler at least once in their time here. It's inevitable. Some times it's beyond their control.

And if your suspension of disbelief cannot last for two, four or six hours a week, then does that mean you can’t enjoy great TV or films because of the same problem?

If you already know whats gonna happen how is your belief suspended?

The Nexus angle was huge to begin with and is continuing strongly now. I don’t remember reading any spoilers about it and this very forum was buzzing because of the very fact that WWE kept it very quiet.

Exactly my point. Everyone was going wild about this storyline because it came out from left field. NO ONE knew of any possible storyline brewing, and that's what made this angle get even bigger.

Even if we knew about it, I’d say the performers deserve credit for making the angle so much better than it actually could have been. It could have died on its feet. It shows that when WWE works at something, it can achieve something brilliant and inspired, which equals must see TV. Reading the spoilers had no effect and made me want to see it happen even more.

I'm pretty sure the show was live, so obviously there wasn't any spoilers. But you're gonna tell me that, if you knew of what was to happen beforehand, you'd feel the same kind of excitement when it happened? Please.

Vince would have you believe it is both sports AND entertainment.

It's a sport form of entertainment. If it was a sport, they'd be called wrestlers, not superstars. It's 98% entertainment, 2% sports.

A creative angle or a great wrestling match can capture your imagination, keep your excitement and maintain a suspension of disbelief for as long as it needs to. I’m sure plenty of people read spoilers for the last episode of Lost but still read it and enjoyed it.

If you know how an angle or match ends before it even occurs you aren't gonna be nearly as high in the excitment/suspension of belief category as you would if you didn't know, because there's no surprise. You aren't as excited because you read X beat Y 5 hours earlier then if you saw it live.

Knowing what will happen shouldn’t spoil a show, because if you hear great things, it can make you catch up, want to tune in to the next show and keep emotionally involved to the product.

Wrestling is a form of entertainment. Entertainment is supposed to get you excited and suspend your belief. How can that happen if you already know what happen? It's not the same feeling if you already know what is going to happen.

 

[a0161613]

Many WWE/TNA/ROH superstars are in character when they are out making public appearacnes. The heels, specifically. You won't see Slyvester Stallone act as Rocky or Rambo out in public appearances, because people know that he's not really Rambo. If WWE/TNA/ROH/any superstars want to keep their things private, they should.

I fail to see the point. it is their choice. In public appearances, Kane is Glen Jacobs and the Miz is The Miz. That’s a personal choice but it’s not the fans fault. It’s up to them. And if their gimmick makes it easy to do so.

This doesn’t affect if the fans should know what is going on backstage.

How? By going out of character on RAW and saying that 'I don't bury superstars. I didn't bang the bosses daughter to get my way to the top.'? That's ridiculous, especially since we don't even know if it's true.

It’s common knowledge that they are happily married. The Orton build to their WM match preyed on the fact. It’s obvious he has used that power at times. He will never come out and say that but enough people have publicly criticised him in the past to justify the belief.

If you have a PPV match with HHH that's hardly a burial, win or lose. Just because you lose a match doesn't mean you've been buried.

Sheamus may agree, but Booker T won’t given how HHH destroyed his momentum in their WM19 match.

Because you could still get that one little section in the show that decides to boo Triple H for a dumb reason like he buries people backstage. That could ruin the enjoyment for the people around them because of their obnoxiousness.

That’s absolute speculation, exaggeration and assumption. It could ruin the enjoyment for one moment but it could just as likely not affect anyone. It’s an absolute minority that is unlikely to be heard.

If fans get that theory that 'All Triple H does is bury guys, like my favorite superstar' then it's kinda hard to change that perception.

Is it? His pops and general reaction would make that questionable.

Obviously you don't, but anyone on this board will stumble into a spoiler at least once in their time here. It's inevitable. Some times it's beyond their control.

I’m a hardened internet wrestling fan. I don’t have the means to watch wrestling live and so rely on spoilers and features that the main page provides. But there is no way you can tell me that it is not possible to avoid spoilers. Like I said, you aren’t forced to read spoilers or dirt sheets. And one tiny little spoiler is never going to harm anyone’s enjoy or affect their suspension of disbelief for an entire show.

If you already know whats gonna happen how is your belief suspended?

You’re telling me that you can’t enjoy a rewatch of a wrestling DVD even when you know what is going to happen? I can still watch the main event of WM20 and enjoy the fantastic display of wrestling on show, no matter that the outcome is identical.

So you are saying that the entertainment aspect of a show only has a one-time effect on you and you enjoy it less on each re-watch?

Exactly my point. Everyone was going wild about this storyline because it came out from left field. NO ONE knew of any possible storyline brewing, and that's what made this angle get even bigger.
I'm pretty sure the show was live, so obviously there wasn't any spoilers. But you're gonna tell me that, if you knew of what was to happen beforehand, you'd feel the same kind of excitement when it happened? Please.

I didn’t see any hint that the angle was going to take place. And my knowledge of it came from seeing how frantic and active the forums were. But even knowing what was going to happen, I felt compelled to watch it because of the reaction it got.

Knowing it happen had no effect on my viewing pleasure. But even if I had read exactly what was going to happen then I would absolutely want to see it in some form. I can’t imagine any wrestling fan would feel differently about an angle that was done so effectively. Because just life the NWO at Bash at the Beach, hearing about it doesn’t do it justice compared to the actual footage.

It's a sport form of entertainment. If it was a sport, they'd be called wrestlers, not superstars. It's 98% entertainment, 2% sports.

That percentage HAS to be fifty fifty. But these people are athletes first and foremost as most of them are borne from physical competition like American football or other sports.

If you know how an angle or match ends before it even occurs you aren't gonna be nearly as high in the excitment/suspension of belief category as you would if you didn't know, because there's no surprise. You aren't as excited because you read X beat Y 5 hours earlier then if you saw it live.

While I agree that occasionally some matches lack heat when the outcome is obvious (HBK / Taker II, AJ vs Sting at Bound for Glory 09) This is generally rubbish because those matches were harmed by their build up, which made it look predictable.

Wrestling is a form of entertainment. Entertainment is supposed to get you excited and suspend your belief. How can that happen if you already know what happen? It's not the same feeling if you already know what is going to happen.

But a truly great angle or classic match will maintain interest and peak suspension of disbelief.

Maybe we both need to drag this back on track. The fact is the fans don’t need to know what is going on backstage. Most of the WWE Universe (hate that term) are not involved in the IWC and as such, they know very little of what goes on. Most of them truly don’t care about what goes on backstage, about who is doing who and how it is affecting their on-screen time. They don’t let it affect their enjoyment and it shouldn’t affect what they perceive as entertainment.

So long as the product is good, what happens backstage doesn’t matter to the fans. This is most fans’ issue with TNA. They know backstage relationships and deals are causing the program to suffer.

 

[Megatron]

Some of this has gone a little off topic, so I apologize and will only really go after stuff that is on topic for my final reply. I shall have up a closing argument sometime tommorow.

That’s absolute speculation, exaggeration and assumption. It could ruin the enjoyment for one moment but it could just as likely not affect anyone. It’s an absolute minority that is unlikely to be heard.

Maybe for a guy like Triple H, since there are many casuals that still like him, but for a guy like Cena it's almost always 50-50. Jericho sometimes as well.

Is it? His pops and general reaction would make that questionable.

I was referring to the internet fans and unable to change their views because of the bullshit 'politics' rumor that's been attached to HHH since like 99 when he first won the belt.

But there is no way you can tell me that it is not possible to avoid spoilers. Like I said, you aren’t forced to read spoilers or dirt sheets. And one tiny little spoiler is never going to harm anyone’s enjoy or affect their suspension of disbelief for an entire show.

Really? You could just be browsing a forum just like this and the title of a thread could say 'New WWE Champion' from a most recent PPV. You wouldn't even have to read it to know who it's about, most of the time, since it's 1 on 1 matches. That's a clear spoiler while unintentionally looking for it. And if that guy is your favorite wrestler, you'll be happy, but when you see it you can't tell me you'll feel as much of a thrill as you would if you didn't know the result.

You’re telling me that you can’t enjoy a rewatch of a wrestling DVD even when you know what is going to happen? I can still watch the main event of WM20 and enjoy the fantastic display of wrestling on show, no matter that the outcome is identical.

Yes, you can, but your suspension of belief isn't even close because you know how the result is. Which, in turn, could kill your excitement. Not that you can't be entertained, but you can't tell me you enjoyed a match like, Austin/Hart, the 60th time more then you would the 1st.

So you are saying that the entertainment aspect of a show only has a one-time effect on you and you enjoy it less on each re-watch?

You can still be entertained, but your excitement and suspension of belief won't be nearly as high.

I didn’t see any hint that the angle was going to take place. And my knowledge of it came from seeing how frantic and active the forums were. But even knowing what was going to happen, I felt compelled to watch it because of the reaction it got.

You can't tell me you were as shocked as you would be had you not known about what happened beforehand, though.

Knowing it happen had no effect on my viewing pleasure. But even if I had read exactly what was going to happen then I would absolutely want to see it in some form. I can’t imagine any wrestling fan would feel differently about an angle that was done so effectively. Because just life the NWO at Bash at the Beach, hearing about it doesn’t do it justice compared to the actual footage.

I'm not saying you can't be entertained, but it wasn't nearly as exciting and suspending your belief as it would had you not known about it when you watched the show.

That percentage HAS to be fifty fifty. But these people are athletes first and foremost as most of them are borne from physical competition like American football or other sports.

If that was the case then we'd see more wrestling on a TV show. But we don't. It's promos, promos, and buildup to entertain you and excite you for the match. Entertainment is more important then putting on a great match.

But a truly great angle or classic match will maintain interest and peak suspension of disbelief.

Probably because you don't know what's gonna happen.

Maybe we both need to drag this back on track. The fact is the fans don’t need to know what is going on backstage. Most of the WWE Universe (hate that term) are not involved in the IWC and as such, they know very little of what goes on. Most of them truly don’t care about what goes on backstage, about who is doing who and how it is affecting their on-screen time. They don’t let it affect their enjoyment and it shouldn’t affect what they perceive as entertainment.

Exactly. So what is the need for dirtsheets?

So long as the product is good, what happens backstage doesn’t matter to the fans. This is most fans’ issue with TNA. They know backstage relationships and deals are causing the program to suffer.

Exactly, since they like to believe they know whats going on, how is that good for business? Keep the dirt sheets away if you don't want dumb fans affecting your presentation of the show.

 

[a0161613]

I’ve got a feeling both me and PG have not realised the deadline was today......As I was halfway through writing this when I realised, I think I should finish it. My concluding arguement won’t truly be complete as I don’t think it fair on PG.

Maybe for a guy like Triple H, since there are many casuals that still like him, but for a guy like Cena it's almost always 50-50. Jericho sometimes as well.

All perfectly explainable. Cena gets booed because of his crap punches, the No-Pressure STF and his superman gimmick. A talented and popular guy but there are other factors that attribute to his being booed. None of this has to do with what we know of him backstage because all we know is that he is a hard working company guy, who does what he is told without question.

I was referring to the internet fans and unable to change their views because of the bullshit 'politics' rumor that's been attached to HHH since like 99 when he first won the belt.

Again, this is irrelevant because the IWC are a tiny percentage of the companys’ audience. HHH was a future champion regardless and the politics didn’t start until the McMahon Helmsley era was in full swing in late 2000.

Really? You could just be browsing a forum just like this and the title of a thread could say 'New WWE Champion' from a most recent PPV. You wouldn't even have to read it to know who it's about, most of the time, since it's 1 on 1 matches. That's a clear spoiler while unintentionally looking for it. And if that guy is your favorite wrestler, you'll be happy, but when you see it you can't tell me you'll feel as much of a thrill as you would if you didn't know the result.

A casual fan who watches all programming live might be upset but really, it’s no great deal. Spoilers are banned here for that reason.

Yes, you can, but your suspension of belief isn't even close because you know how the result is. Which, in turn, could kill your excitement. Not that you can't be entertained, but you can't tell me you enjoyed a match like, Austin/Hart, the 60th time more then you would the 1st.

It could but if the angle is successful, it will keep you watching and surely that is what defines entertainment, something to keep you coming back. Surely a classic is a classic for that very reason. Something you could watch repeatedly and always enjoy.

You can still be entertained, but your excitement and suspension of belief won't be nearly as high.

You can't tell me you were as shocked as you would be had you not known about what happened beforehand, though.

I'm not saying you can't be entertained, but it wasn't nearly as exciting and suspending your belief as it would had you not known about it when you watched the show.

Suspension of disbelief is not a necessity or a pre-requisite for watching pro wrestling. Can knowing the goings-on backstage really affect your enjoyment of wrestling so much? If Jeff Jarrett (for example as the HHH of TNA) comes out and wins the world title again, are you able to take him credibly? Of course not, but it’s because of his average ring work and because there are always a multitude of better candidates. Suspension of disbelief has nothing to do with that. It’s just poor booking.

If that was the case then we'd see more wrestling on a TV show. But we don't. It's promos, promos, and buildup to entertain you and excite you for the match. Entertainment is more important then putting on a great match.

This is nothing to do with fans knowing what goes on backstage. This is how a company decides to build to its PPVs.

Exactly. So what is the need for dirtsheets?

A necessary evil. It’s simple the result of technology. Fifteen years ago, HHH and Stephanie’s marriage would never have been a huge thing because the technology didn’t exist to spread it like wildfire. Now, every single picture of them together is spread around, no matter what the significance.

Exactly, since they like to believe they know whats going on, how is that good for business? Keep the dirt sheets away if you don't want dumb fans affecting your presentation of the show.

I simply question how much importance and relevance that you are putting on what we know via these external sources. It simply isn’t that important. What we know doesn’t really affect the wrestling companies. Vince doesn’t allow his writers to write shows for the benefits of the IWC. Far from it actually, as we know (via the “backstage sources” of dirtsheets) the WWE world is a fish bowl. A fish bowl that has said such gems as “CM Punk doesn’t know how to work.”


**

Can knowing the goings-on backstage really affect your enjoyment of wrestling so much? Does the internet really affect wrestling? Are the “dirt sheets” ruining the enjoyment of wrestling for the general public?

I say no. Throughout history, the advances of technology change how we look at things and how things are available to the world. In this instance, where the internet has such wide ranging influence, its effect on wrestling is inevitable. Leaks were going to happen and business would be exposed.

 

[Phoenix]

Clarity of debate: Numbers
Both guys had good openings and debated well. However Numbers recognised when things lost track and also gave a wrap up, understandably minor to show leeway to Papa Grande.

Punctuality: Papa Grande
Despite both of them exceding over 24 hours at one point, Numbers took longer with one post. Point goes to Papa.

Informative: Draw
Both guys gave an equal amount of information and also brought in new examples as each post went on, can't fault either on it.

Persuasion: Numbers
That being said I felt that Numbers kept getting stronger as the debate went on and Papa was trying to come back from behind but didn't get the chance to reach it in time. Numbers kept a solid argument going and didn't look back, and convinced me through this that we should be allowed to know what goes on backstage.

Final Score
Papa Grande: 1.5
Numbers: 3.5

 

[CH David]

Clarity: Gotta go with Numbers on this one. Tried to get it back on track after realizing it got off. Papa had a good open, but Numbers overall was clearer.

Point: Numbers

Punctuality: Both guys were late.

Point: Split

Informative: Both used their information well, and brought new info in as it went along.

Point: Split

Persuasion: Numbers did a good job taking control of the debate and going full throttle. Papa Grande was behind the 8-Ball after his opener, not because anything he said or didn't say, but because Numbers turned on the jets. Papa tried his damndest to attack, but Numbers kept arguing his points. Althought it damn sure isn't due to a lack of effort that Papa isn't getting these.

Points: Numbers

CH David scores this Numbers 4, Papa Grande 1.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Clarity: I thought Numbers's opening argument was the clearer of the two.

Point: Numbers

Punctuality: Read what Phoenix wrote.

Point: Papa Grande

Informative: Shame Papa Grande had to drop out...he was an excellent researcher.

Point: Papa Grande

Persuasion: Although late, Numbers just got edged out by Papa Grande in the informative criterion. He did present the better overall argument, though, so he gets both points here.

Point: Numbers

Final Score

Numbers: 3
Papa Grande: 2

 

[D-Man]

Clarity: Numbers has clearer arguments througout.
Point: Numbers

Punctuality: What Phoenix said.
Point: Papa Grande

Informative: Papa Grande came out with some good info in this debate. Like tdigs said, it's a shame that he dropped out.
Point: Papa Grande

Persuasion: Even though Papa Grande brought more information here, Numbers made me believe his argument more.
Point: Numbers

Final Score
Numbers: 3
Papa Grande: 2

 

[D-Man]

After a complete judge's tally, Numbers is the victor with 13.5 points to Papa Grande's 6.5.

Congratulations and great debating from the both of you!