Round 3: Mr. Steve v Franchize1990

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2010' started by D-Man, Aug 15, 2010.

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  1. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Which company would be the better benefit for Bryan Danielson once his 90 day no compete clause is up, WWE or TNA?

    This is a third round match in the Debater's League. Mr. Steve is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate they will be on and who debates first, but they have 24 hours to make their choice.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    Good luck.​
     
  2. Mr. Steve

    Mr. Steve Everybody calls me Ruxin, Rupert.

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    The best of luck to you, Franchize.

    We need a recap about this: Yes, The 'E released Danielson. But, they were kind enough to let him appear on pay-per-views and indies that don't have a television contract. The result: Bookings. Bookings everywhere. The guy's been hot after his release, since he quite literally became "the man too violent for WWE." People are wanting to get autographs of him choking them with ties, and bookers are realizing that. Thus, we arrive at the predicament we're in today. Danielson's won a title around his third booking, which was his IWA debut here in Puerto Rico.

    WWE will better benefit from Danielson, and NOT TNA

    Let's look at the facts.

    Chants. Chants Everywhere



    Throughout that pay per view, as well as the RAW shows leading up to it, people where chanting Bryan's name (well, his 'E name, anyway). The dude already has both feet in the door of the 'E, since it is reported that McMahon wants him back. The reason for his release was because of preventative measures, and he was praised for his execution of the angle in the first place. Besides, knowing them, they must have agreed to resign as soon as the 90 days are up. They realize that the young man can shine brighter in the WWE than anywhere else, and they should have capitalized on it.

    He'll get lost in TNA

    Take a look in what is going on in TNA. Right now, it's just rehash after rehash after rehash of WCW storylines and ECDub performers (all of them older than the ring they're wrestling in) Look at Wolfe. The guy can go, and should be on the title picture already (if they did it to RVD, they could do it with him, and do an excellent job). Where is he at right now? filling up the midcard with Magnus to challenge for the TNA Tag titles, in their second show, no less.

    All I'm saying is, Danielson should and is likely looking at his options. But at the end of the day, Danielson really knows that he can benefit more in the very company that released him, just as they can benefit from him.
     
  3. Franchize1990

    Franchize1990 Pre-Show Stalwart

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    TNA: Bryan's Better Benefit​


    Bryan Danielson is one of the internet darlings that is just now getting into the mainstream television market. With recent actions a few months ago, Bryan was released from his contract with the WWE. In this post, I will be debating that going to the WWE will not benefit Danielson’s career as opposed to him moving to TNA.

    1.) ROH Stars Don't Fare Well in the WWE

    Whether it's because Vince prefers home grown talent over independent stars or because the casual fan isn't as interested in the wrestler as we are, stars from other promotions, ROH in this case, have had a less than stellar track record in the WWE. Out of the 4 ROH champions who have had a roster spot in the WWE, only one can truly say he was successful at it in terms of titles and notoriety. The other three, BD included, have done nothing real note-worthy in the WWE as of late. Jamie Noble's highlight came when he won the Cruiserweight Championship and Kaval and Danielson have a combined record of 2-15 on NXT. Maybe Bryan might break through but the chances that he would aren't likely and he wouldn't benefit from going back into the WWE.

    2.) Danielson Statically Would Have a Better Career in TNA

    As stated in the previous paragraph, ROH wrestlers have had trouble finding success in the WWE organization but it’s a little bit easier to have success in TNA. There have also been four former ROH Champions in TNA and all with the exception of Aries, have either won multiple championships or are in line for a title shot. So compared to the 25% who have done well in the WWE, 50% (potentially 75% give or take a few years in Wolfe’s case) have done just as well, if not better in TNA. Bryan Danielson’s chances to have a great career would benefit more if he went to TNA instead of returning to the WWE.

    3.) BD Part of a Possible Trend in the WWE

    With his recent return at SummerSlam last night, Bryan Danielson is probably one of the hottest things on the market in the WWE right now. The question is, how long will he stay hot in the WWE? We’ve seen guys who were the talk of a show for a few weeks before falling back into the midcard area again, most recently with Kofi Kingston around the end of 2009. Bryan is now getting the same type of notoriety but, the way the WWE books, he is most likely not getting a world title shot anytime soon. Danielson would have a better shot at becoming a world championship match in TNA, since the popular wrestlers there tend to get a title shot pretty quickly.

    So in conclusion, if Bryan Danielson wants to have a better career, he would benefit more by going to TNA rather than the WWE.
     
  4. Mr. Steve

    Mr. Steve Everybody calls me Ruxin, Rupert.

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    Yeah, they do. The ones that can adjust accordingly to what is expected of them in terms of working matches, connecting with the crowd, etc.

    The trick to this debate is this: "Have they/can they connect with the crowd?" That is the question the WWE has to ask itself before putting them to work. By the way, let's look at the list of Ring of Honor champions.

    • Bryan Danielson
    • CM Punk
    • Evan Bourne
    • Jamie Noble
    • Low-Ki/Kaval

    Not bad, right? Let's look at them now.

    Evan Bourne is over. Yessir he is. Doesn't have a title, yet he's getting people to cheer for him, and it's proven that he can get the company some cash. Which, in the end is what any promotion would want from their workers.

    CM Punk...can get heel heat from Ghandi himself if he were alive. Hell, he literally brought Luke Gallows from the depths of the Possible Future Endeavors list, and because of that, he's been given some level of relevancy in the SES (the first one to convert)

    Yeah, Jamie Noble is retired. But, really he wasn't one to actually be true from Ring of Honor since he got fired from the 'E and went there. He won their World championship, until he lost it to...

    Daniel Bryan Danielson. Ah, yes. The man of the hour. We're debating about him, right? The guy that's been given a feud with the Miz (who's basically putting him even more over by attacking him unawares). Oh, and Daniel beat him clean, remember? Their dynamic of NXT Season one was pretty much the highlight of the show, and little by little, he started to get the crowd behind him.

    We know the story: He got released, he worked the indies with a FUCKTON of steam, and then...

    Doubt it. Hell, I just can't see in any way shape or form that they can fuck it up somehow.


    Thanks for agreeing.

    Going on two days now. Then again, that's just because he got back. The night he came back, he was a number one trending topic worldwide on twitter. He was asked to return on Team WWE, and he eliminated two of the Nexus.

    Yeah, that's cause he got drafted. Bryan got released, and came back and STILL got relevant. That just shows how booking can go in the WWE. Kingston should have stayed on Raw, or gotten a high profile feud on Smackdown. But yeah, this is irrelevant.

    You serious? He got back, for christ's sake! Hell, he's most likely going to challenge for the US title to take it off the Miz. He's not going to leave anytime soon, mate. Especially knowing that he can do a hell of a job if given the chance to go.

    Yeah, the flash in the pan trick doesn't work. Hasn't work, and will most likely kill any momentum anyone will have for the title. Danielson wouldn't benefit either, since it would make him look like delicate goods, and basically weaken eveyrone in the TNA title contention by challenging and winning. TNA isn't the indies, kid. Hell, by the time the 90 days would be up, the momentum he had and has would just be dead by then. It's why he was wrestling on non-televised shows (Pay Per Views were allowed, I think.)

    No he didn't. He went to the WWE since he knows that he can benefit from them and they can benefit from him. He's a guy that they want around in the locker room, and he's a damn good worker. TNA keeps the good workers down (AJ).
     
  5. Franchize1990

    Franchize1990 Pre-Show Stalwart

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    And to you.

    Those same fans that were chanting his name on RAW and throughout the pay-per-views can be found at the iMPACT Zone in Orlando week in and week out. He would've been just as over in TNA as the WWE especially since he had a rep for getting released for being "non-PG". It's a better move for the WWE because they get to keep a star away from TNA but isn't the better move for Danielson in the long run.

    Desmond was in the World Title picture already. He got his first title shot in less than 5 months as the Wolfe character, which was after a high profile feud with Kurt Angle, and he was the owner of the #1 ranking in the first ever Championship Rankings poll. Now he's still in a title picture, in line for a shot against the MCMG for the tag titles.

    Only one has been able to connect with the crowd so far and turn that into success.

    Yes, let's.

    Bourne is over because he has a very flashy move set not because he can connect personally with the crowd. Usually faces that are as over as you say he is with the fans don't get beat cleanly often. His last victory on RAW came a little over a month ago and his last clean one-on-one victory Borune had was way back in May against Zack Ryder. Borune's gear is nowhere near the WWEShop's top sellers at the moment and he only has four items on the site for sale. So Bourne might make some money through selling some merchandise but, not enough to say that he's connected with the fans that much. Also, I wouldn’t call Bourne a ROH champion since he never held the World Title.

    I mentioned this in my opening argument already and stated that he was the one person on that list that was able to connect with the fans and translate it into success in terms of titles and main event feuds.

    During his initial run in the WWE, he won his only title there, feuding with the likes of Rey Mysterio and Tajiri. After his run in ROH was over and he came back to the WWE, he was pretty much there to job to the other cruiserweights in the business, like Hornswoggle. This proves my point that ROH guys really aren’t too successful in the WWE.

    Let’s also not forget that Danielson was pretty much beaten by everybody on the NXT roster before he got eliminated. He was pretty much out of the WWE picture until the whole Nexus fiasco happened. As big a name Danielson is, I could almost guarantee that he wouldn’t have been treated as a jobber on the lower-tier show in TNA.

    Don't know how working all of those indy promotions really fits into the debate since I don't see how it would affect his momentum when his clause would have been up. He was going to be big no matter if he went to TNA or the WWE.

    It’s a surprise return so, of course he’s going to be hot at the moment. Let’s see where he is after his initial buzz dies down.

    It’s not irrelevant because the buzz Kingston had after the show in Madison Square Garden is similar to the buzz Danielson is getting now. Everybody on these forums thought that Kingston was on the way to superstardom on RAW. After getting beat by Orton for the fourth time, the buzz had ultimately died down hence, the reason he got drafted to the B show. The way the WWE books, it wouldn’t be impossible to believe that DBD would be in the same boat in the long run.

    See Bourne and Kingston.

    Didn’t hurt any of the contenders when RVD won the Heavyweight Title in about a month nor did it hurt any of the contenders to the title contenders when Kurt Angle held all of those titles in under a year. And he wouldn’t have lost any momentum while sitting out the 90 days. Just ask Mr. Kennedy/Anderson, who sat out the full 90 about how over he is in the iMPACT Zone.

    Styles is currently the TNA Television Champion, is a part of the Fortune group, and is in the middle of TNA's current big storyline with Fortune vs. EV 2.0. With RVD most likely vacating the World Title, I wouldn't be surprised to see Styles around the title picture in a couple of weeks or months at the latest. So, if that's keeping the good workers down, then imagine the push Bryan would've gotten being billed as the man who was too restricted for the WWE after his 90 day clause was up.
     
  6. Mr. Steve

    Mr. Steve Everybody calls me Ruxin, Rupert.

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    Yes, but isn't that the point? To be able to utilize a star of Danielson's caliber and potential to go far in the WWE in a better, and more lasting way than TNA? It is the better run since TNA has been very erratic these past few months. They pay for appearance, and that means that if he gets over the limit with a title, he has to drop it and wait it out. It's just an erratic pattern (look at RVD)

    But look at the gap from there to the main event? It's huge. If he were that important, he would have stayed number 1 in the polls. It's kinda disheartening to look at his feud with Kurt which was high up in the card, then to his feud with Abyss, which can be said it's upper mid card. Then to ask to be included in Fortune, only to be denied and end up teaming with Brutus on the show. You'd think it'd be backwards when he got booked. But to me, it just seems like a stunted growth. Something that Danielson CANNOT need in his career.


    No, I think four of them have: Punk, bourne, Kaval and Danielson.


    So if he holds the tag titles, he isn't a champion? What? Besides you're pretty much agreeing with me since you said what I just bolded. So is it enough to sell, but not enough to connect with the audience.

    Yes, but Kaval and Danielson are getting their feet wet. They're also getting reactions, and in the eyes of the WWE universe, they're rookies.

    Yes they can. They just need to have enough talent to be able to capitalize on the chance they're given and look good and connect with the audience. Evan Bourne may sell a clothesline like a freight train hit, but it's part of what of his appeal. He's very underdog, has a flashy moveset, and people pop when he hits his Air Bourne. Is that not connecting with the crowd? Yes it is. Why? Because he's using his moveset to appeal to the crowd.

    And I could guarantee he would most likely be ending up in the same position as Wolfe. Besides, he got eliminated by management on NXT, not for being low on the polls. He was dominating at number one for a few weeks, for christ's sake. Besides, it was evident that Miz and Danielson would feud at some point. Better now that he's returned since it gives it all the more steam because Miz was the reason he got eliminated in Summerslam, and th reaosn he lost on Monday.

    And who says you need to win to get noticed? He made everyone he had a match with seem legit at the time (which says a lot about him as a worker).


    It's a feud with Miz. If there's anything it won't do, it's lose buzz. Cole cheers the Miz, and Miz is feuding with Bryan. That equals Cole bashing him (givign Cole some personality) and that just escalates the feud.

    lol, and you think that TNA's booking direction is any better? You serious? Besides, Kingston is a different case. His draft came at a bad time, but he's pretty much building himself back up by his feud with Ziggler for the title. Orton was in the same boat in 2004. Granted, it was because he got kicked out of Evolution and he turned face too early, but still. He built himself back up. What, you think Kingston can't do the same?

    See my rebuttals

    Oh, yes it did. yes it did. He gets the title a month and a few days after he's hired to work in TNA. I think Angle took a lot longer than that.

    He had to build himself up from scratch, remember? He wasn't known as Mr. Anderson at first, he was pretty much getting "Kennedy" chants. Besides, he debuted as a heel getting face chants, which is pretty much the norm at TNA.

    Erratic. What's the point of the group if they don't have the gold in TNA? Besides, this just proves that if Danielson were to be hired, he'd be pretty much cast aside, same as Wolfe.

    I wouldn't be surprised if he jobs to someone. We differ in philosophies, apparently.

    Oh, right. That's the norm of TNA: mention anything to give the 'E publicity. Remember the "fuck you, Vince" chants at Hardcore Justice? That does not help TNA. Danielson going to TNA would just be this gigantic fuck you to the work he put in WWE, and it wouldn't last. Nothing lasts in TNA.
     
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  7. Franchize1990

    Franchize1990 Pre-Show Stalwart

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    RVD's situation is similar to Drew McIntyre's in the sense that the guys upstairs took a blind eye to the fact that the competitors VISA/contract was expiring. All it took was a simple extention to keep them on the show. Also, I wouldn't call the world title scene erratic. Pretty much all of the champions have had reigns that've lasted over 100 days.

    If Danielson were that important in the WWE, he would've won NXT instead of being a part of the first group of eliminations. Bryan's still losing matches, which is something that he doesn't need in his career.


    Bourne hasn't been successful if the only guy you can beat one-on-one on RAW is Zach Ryder. Kaval and Danielson haven't had enough time for us to determine if they are successes or not. Again, the only one that has been successful out of ROH as of right now has been C.M. Punk.


    I was talking about the ROH World Champions, which Bourne never was. But, if other champions can be included in the debate then we need to talk about other ROH champs that didn't make it in the WWE like Colt Cabana, Tony DeVito, and John Stagikas. And for every one of those champs that never made it in the WWE, there is a ROH champion who had a good career in TNA like Christopher Daniels (a 3 time X Division Champion), an Amazing Red (another mulitple X Division title holder), the current X Division Champ Doug Williams, and a Jay Lethal (a three time X Division Champion himself). Again, Danielson's chances to have a successful career would be better if he wnet to TNA. To connect with the audience, one would need to talk to have some sort of emotional connection with the fans. Without it, the crowd only pops when he's gearing up for the SSP. I wouldn't call Cody Rhodes a success quite yet but even he sells a few things himself.

    Fans will pop for people using high flying moves. Justin Gabriel, without saying a word or knowing really anything about him, in his first match in NXT got the crowd to pop for him when he did his 450 splash. Normally, during an Evan Bourne match, the crowd begins to get to their feet only when he is setting up for the SSP. That's not really connecting with the fans.

    There was only one poll out before Bryan was eliminated, so he only dominated for one week not a number of weeks. Why did management decide to let Bryan go? He had said that he should be the first to go. Why did he say he should be the first one to go? Because he had not won a match until the night before.

    You don't need to win to get noticed. You do, however, need to win to have a better career. Shelton Benjamin was a good worker but had a average career at best in the WWE.

    The feud with The Miz that's coming up is still a part of his initial buzz.

    Never said he couldn't. Just saying that after Kofi's hype died down he was moved back down to the midcard on the B show. Danielson has that same type of hype and all I'm saying is after his hype dies down, let's see where he ends up and see if his run in the WWE can be considered a success or not.

    Still don't see how those two winning the titles so fast hurts the contenders. Angle and RVD have been built up as superstars before they reached TNA so them getting put into the spotlight with the other contenders made since.

    Still riding the momentum of his WWE run while sitting out the 90 days. So since you said Bryan had a successful run in the WWE before he got released the first time, he would've had the Kennedy like run in TNA which has been pretty good so far.

    How is that Erratic, Styles has been with Flair ever since he came to TNA back in January. And, the Fortune Faction had gold in the group already with AJ Styles and just added the X Division champion in Williams. Again, Danielson is a bigger name than Wolfe so TNA was going to use him regularly on the show.

    Didn't watch the show.

    All the more reason he would be insanely over in TNA. You think that the people at TNA would be dumb enough to steal one of the top workers in the wrestling world from the WWE and then not use him as one of the top wrestlers in TNA? I know it's TNA but they are smarter than you're giving them credit for.
     
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  8. Mr. Steve

    Mr. Steve Everybody calls me Ruxin, Rupert.

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    True, but it hurt the guy that was holding the title before RVD, which was the "face" of the company, AJ Styles. That same man has to now get a lower tier title and bring from all the way there to the top. That's not an easy job given the fact that he just lost last night, didn't he?

    Miz is winning matches, and he isn't defending the title. He's giving cred to that very title by winning MITB. In a sense, he's saying "This is the title that's getting me the attention, as well as getting me noticed."

    Actually, it didn't matter shit who won NXT. Bryan was over enough. Sometimes, you lose and get more popularity. Steve Austin/Bret Hart Wrestlemania 13, Chris Benoit/Kurt Angle at the 2003 Royal Rumble.

    Yeah, you can argue that those guys didn't have to lost, but did. But so did Bryan. For every loss that Bryan had, there was Cole bashing and Miz coming in the ring and beating him. Which got him more of a following, which he retained. And it just culminated when he beat the Miz CLEAN (which says something about the Miz: He can't beat a rookie unless it's taking him out from behind). After that, said rookie got the upper hand when The Miz was about to make him "apologize" by throwing the Miz into Michael Cole.

    The Result: Cheers. Cheers Everywhere

    Which just nulls your argument. They haven't had enough time, so how come you're telling me that TNA could have done a better job? Talk to me when we see Night of Champions

    Again, it comes down to the long run, not the short term. Which is TNA's specialty.

    The following is a quote from my good friend Dave

    Did the fans connect with him on that level? They did?

    Reeeealy? :blush:

    That's the point of it. He got started by making them get behind him. He uses the 450 to either pop or boo (yes he does. Don't lie and say he don't).

    Wait....why the fuck are we talking about Bourne? Borne =/= Danielson

    Part of the storyline. He went there next week and pretty much went apeshit on Cole. The feud continued, and guess what? He kept appearing in NXT, didn't he?

    Also, he beat The Miz on his one night contract. :D

    :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

    No it's not.

    He'll end up with the U.S. Championship getting some good matches out of the guys and bringing the title up from the depths of the unificacion sea. If that isn't success, let me know.

    But Angle and RVD have a difference" Kurt built himself up longer. It makes him look legit when it comes to challenging for the title.

    Yeah but it wasn't something that was well planned. Had Fortune been made with AJ as the TNA World Champion, it would have been better. Trick is, TNA books on a show by year basis, don't they? He overuses his appearances, he's out until the year after.

    Lol I like you already.

    No they're not. They're dumb enough to ignore their originals to make way for the exports. If they were a country, they'd have shitty export/import policies.

    Thing is, that it wouldn't be healthy for Danielson to be in that type of company. If there aren't any well-built originals (or any in the process, really) then what's the point? He doesn't have anyone to rub off, and he'd end up doing something we'd be pissed off at as a collective hive mind (that is composed of the IWC)
     
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  9. Phoenix

    Phoenix WZCW's First Triple Crown Champion

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    Clarity of debate: Mr. Steve
    Steve opened and had at least had a feeling of closure, he kept good on keeping with the subject at hand.

    Punctuality: Franchize1990
    Both men took a while to post, but Mr. Steve exceded over 24 hours.

    Informative: Franchize1990
    Franchize seemed to use more information, certainly to correct certain aspects, while Steve did it as well, Franchize did it more with correct info.

    Persuasion: Mr. Steve
    That being said with the information, where Franchize made corrections on info, Steve made responses to Franchize's points and carried them with conviction and certainly made me agreeing with him more. Naturally I do take into account that the unexpected return of BD did affect things but these two didn't let that affect them. Great stuff

    Final Score
    Mr. Steve: 3
    Franchize1990: 2
     
  10. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    Clarity: Franchize's opening posts are still as pretty as they were last year. Bolded, clear, short and sweet. Steven had a great open and a bit of a close. I'll have to split this.

    Point: Split

    Punctuality: Steven was tardy twice.

    Point: Franchize1990

    Informative: What Phoenix said.

    Point: Franchize1990

    Persuasion: I have to agree with Phoenix. Franchize used his information well, but Steven was better at countering that. It's difficult looking at the fact that Danielson did return to the WWE, but Steven was able to sway me regardless. Excellent debate though.

    Points: Mr. Steve

    CH David scores this Franchize1990 2.5, Mr. Steve 2.5
     
  11. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Clarity of debate: Franchize1990
    No one beats Franchize1990 when it comes to organization and clarity (well, maybe Ferbian and Steamboat Ricky...we'll see what happens when Franchize1990 and Ferbian meet up).

    Punctuality: Franchize1990
    What Phoenix said.

    Informative: Franchize1990
    Is Franchize1990 channeling his inner IrishCanadian25? He's able to bring lots of information without losing his grip on clarity...I might be on to something here.

    Persuasion: Split
    Franchize1990 owned with his opening posts, and Steve did a great job in his rebuttals. I'm splitting the points here.

    Final Score
    Mr. Steve: 1
    Franchize1990: 4
     
  12. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Another great debate that involved Steve and Franchise. I need to keep a close eye on these two. Here are my scores:

    Clarity: Franchize1990
    Punctuality: Franchize1990
    Informative: Franchize1990
    Persuasion: Split

    Final Score
    Franchize1990: 4
    Mr. Steve: 1
     
  13. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    After a complete judge's tally, Franchize1990 is the victor with 12.5 points to Mr. Steve's 7.5.

    Congratulations and great debating from the both of you!
     
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