CAN I VOTE FOR SLYFOX VS OGERZ AS FUED OF THE YEAR?!
Meh, he has to get in line behind Justinsayne, Death Is a Right, Big Wes, Captain Charisma, IrishCanadian, RVDgurl and probably a whole host of others.
BS. You were caught in your own fairytale world. Your constantly talking in circles trying to make me look bad when its YOU that are looking bad. You make one claim and go back on it all in one post. I am beginning to see your age showing.
No, I meant that at the very time. Go back and just read the posts concerning Vader, which is why it came up in the first place. Why would I have brought up Vader, and then in your response to how Vader was only successful in WCW and not at all in WWF, mention that other countries don't count, when Vader's greatest successes came in Japan? It would make no sense.
Go back and read. I assure you, it was completely sarcasm.
And, you don't even know how old I am, so I see no need to bring that up.
OK, for the last time (as I am through with trying to explain it to someone that needs to really read the post and not go directly to the belittling), My definition of a LEGEND is, a person who made an impact on wrestling with not just accomplishments, but their stature in the wrestling world as a whole. I know, I know, *In my best Slyfox impersonation* "fully explain the impact Owen Hart had on the business". BTW, I have explained this 3 times, and here goes NUMBER 4. READ THIS THIS TIME. UNDERSTAND IT before your make more dumb comments without thinking first.
And my definition of a legend is someone who irreplaceable. Someone who could do something that others could not, and accomplished things beyond what the majority of other professional wrestlers could do. Someone who truly was unique and set himself apart from all others.
This does not describe Owen Hart.
Owen was a 2 time IC champ, European Champion, 4 time Tag team Champion, & WWE KING of the RING. He accomplished more than MOST in the wrestling world.
While I realize this is only part of your justification, I want to point out that scripted titles runs in a scripted entertainment venue is not an indicator of greatness. Especially, when none of those titles claim Owen as the best in the company, at least at one time, such as being the WWF/E champion.
Here's the tricky part here sly, pay attention to this. Owen was a ring GENERAL as his in-ring capabilities far surpassed AUSTIN, BRUNO, & PIPER. He was as technically sound as Bret if not more. He was well like not just by fellow wrestlers, but by THE FANS.
And yet, at NO point in his career did he ever have a match with anyone, save perhaps his brother, that would rival a crowd reaction like Austin, Bruno and Piper got a continual basis.
Now, this is an OPINION Sly. This is NOT GOSPEL. This is how I FEEL. I don't care if you agree with me or not. It matters NOT to me.
If it didn't matter to you, then why have you spend the last several posts arguing it with me?
Obviously, it matters to you. And, that's fine. It matters to me too.
Let's see, you have called me IGNORANT and a DUMMY in these two statements. Seems to me that, That WOULD BE FLAMING. Practice what you preach.
Ignorant is not an insult. It simply means a lack of awareness. It does not mean "stupid" which is what it is commonly misinterpreted as.
And, the "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Pro-Wrestling" is an actual book, written by Lou Albano. I own it myself...somewhere. It is a really good book, and explains pro-wrestling basics. Look it up on Amazon. It is a real book.
HAHAHAHA
That's funny. I could see where the miscommunication came in. I assure you, neither of those were insults.
Spoken like a someone that is arrogant. Tell me ONE TIME that I said your OPINION is inferior? For that matter, when did I attack your opinion and say it was wrong? I gave my opinion and you ATTACKED ME. Ever since, I have been trying to explain to you why I feel Owen was underrated and should be considered a legend. Basically, defending myself against your immature and none understanding of the FACTS that this ENTIRE THREAD is about OPINION and NOT FACT. Since you ATTACKED my opinion, I gave it back with the whole VADER as a Legend thing, and I seemed to hit a nerve with you that someone is actually dishing it back to you they way you so much like dishing it out. You could have just asked me why I felt that way, but NOOOOO Sly can't handle the FACT that people like certain wrestlers for more that "DRAW & TITLES". How could they POSSIBLY think someone is a legend that doesn't meet YOUR STANDARDS?
Now you will make a snappy comeback saying some along the lines of "Your standards are low". Right? Sorry to beat you to the punch on this one. My standards are MINE. NOT YOURS OBVIOUSLY.
I'll send you a PM to discuss this.
You set a bar that very few will hit in the political world of wrestling. They must make the company billions by selling out an arenas (who's to say all those years Austin was top dog, that people weren't paying to come see someone ELSE and not him?). They MUST be a heavyweight champion to also be included (if your not a favorite of the promoter, there goes that oppurtunity to be a legend). I am entitled to have my standards whether you like them or not.
But...that IS what makes a legend. That's the whole point.
I mean, Rafeal Palmeiro was good baseball player. A very good one. But, he wasn't a legend. Nobody is going to look back 40 years from now and list Rafeal Palmeiro one of the best players of his era.
Just like no one will look back 30 years from now and talk about Owen Hart. They'll talk about Hogan, Savage, Flair, nWo, DX, Austin, Rock, Cena, Triple H...etc. Owen Hart will be the guy known as Bret Hart's brother.
That's not what makes a legend.
BECAUSE OPINIONS DON'T NEED FACTS UNLESS THEY WERE ASKED FOR. I gave what facts I felt would justify his belonging and my facts were not GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU. My facts in your OPINION do not support what I am saying! Plus, your talking about a wrestler who did not get to retire and look back and say what he did or did not do. So, In the case of OWEN HART, all you can do is give your heart felt OPINION. Who's to say that Vince told Owen that if he dawned the mask again and became the Blue Blazer again, that a title oppurtunity would be in his near future? Do you know that for a FACT?
But, what he COULD have done has nothing to do with what he DID do. We're not talking about his potential. We're talking about what he accomplished.
I could sit here and tell you that Len Bias had all the ability in the world and was a surefire Hall of Famer. However due to his death, he never got to show it. But, that has nothing to do with whether he was a legend or not. Len Bias is not an NBA legend, despite all the ability and talent in the world. He never accomplished that plateau.
Just like Owen never accomplished that level of greatness. You can't judge a guy on hypothetical success.
I know that I have no idea what could have happened or what could not have happened, but his career ended on a tragic note. We will NEVER know what could have been. So, once again, your basing everything your saying on what happened while he was alive
Exactly! Because that's the only way you can judge him. You can't judge a person on "What If". What if Ricky Steamboat hasn't quit the WWF to be with his wife? What if Hogan had never left the AWA? What if Rick Martel has been given the Hulk Hogan push?
You can't judge on "what if". Only on what they did accomplish. A "what if" has nothing to do with determining if they are a legend.
he was not given the chance to finish out his career like the Hogans, Austins, Rocks, Brunos, Pipers, Stings, Flairs, and Savage's of the world. He was robbed of that oppurtunity by an accident.
With regards to the discussion of him being given respect and being a legend, tough. Just because he died doesn't mean he gets a free pass.
The facts, plain and simple, are that he was never a major draw, never trusted to hold the company's highest title, never was good in promos, never asked to carry the company, and he toiled in the midcard his entire career.
So, don't sit here acting all godly with your FACTS based on a PARTIAL career. How about adding a new CATAGORY to you oh so precious list, called the Owen Hart's? Wrestlers that died early that acommplished alot, but never got a chance to have a full career showcasing everything he was capable of? Would you add Louie Spicoli to that list? How about Chris Candito?
Um...what? I don't understand what that has to do with this conversation. And, both Spicolli and Candido are completely overrated as well. Well, Candido is, as nobody actually remembers who Louie Spicolli is (understand that "nobody" refers to the majority of wrestling fans).
I never said that Owen was the best walking the planet like your putting me out as saying. I said that Owen, in his short career, accomplished enough for him to be remembered as more than a "Guy that fell and broke his neck". You have NO RESPECT. Maybe you should avoid threads like this as you have NO CLUE what anyone is trying to get you to understand here.
No, I understand completely. And, comments like him being a legend is vastly overrating him.
Which has been my point all along.
I am far from a big time fan of Owens. Once again, those are YOUR words. Obviously my parents taught me respect. You must have been sleeping for that class.
*sigh*
I'm trying really hard to keep this conversation civil. I ask that you do the same.
I respect what Owen did in his short career and the sacrifices he made to the wrestling world including giving his life to it. While this is what I believe, you consistant belittle me for having those feelings. Being arrogant enough to ask me for FACTS when how can you really base this on facts when its a partial career?
Wait.
I'm being arrogant because I'm asking you to use facts to support your position?
It should make sense to you as DRAW AND TITLES is all that matters with you. Again, Who's knows what wrestler people came to see? Do you know? Have you been standing outside of EVERY arena asking fans as they were leaving who they paid money to come see? Or as they were coming in? Just because WWE or whatever wrestling website says it doesn't make it FACT.
Ok, here you go then.
1. When WWF Raw comes on television, the Neilson ratings measures how many fans watch through each quarter hour. Those numbers are compiled by Neilson and the WWF/E reviews them. They can see how many viewers were gained and lost through each segment. So, when they see that a Funaki segment loses 200,000 viewers, and a Steve Austin segment gains 600,000 viewers, they know that Steve Austin is a draw, particularly when it happens time and again.
2. The WWF/E gauges house show attendance to see who are draws. It's a well known fact that the main-eventers are what draw attendance to shows (and I'll explain that in a second). So, when a draw that features John Cena draws better than a show that features a King Booker, they know that John Cena is the bigger draw.
3. Merchandise sales are a great indicator of drawing ability. People, in general, are going to buy the merchandise of their favorite wrestlers. Those who bring in more merchandise money, are the bigger draws.
4. Crowd involvement in matches are another indicator of drawing ability. If a crowd is hot for a wrestler, and remains so throughout a match, it shows the guy is obviously a person that fans want to see, or, in the case of a heel, a guy that crowd wants to see get beat up.
5. Those who rate high in those areas are the ones who get the pushes. WWF saw that Steve Austin ratings drew well, house show attendance went up when he was around, he sold merchandise and had great crowd involvement in his matches. So, they pushed him to the main-event, and he became the second greatest draw the business has ever seen.
SOOO, when I see guys who are in the main-event, and being given runs as the top guy in the company, I know that they had to pass all those other stages to get there, as the WWE is not going to put a guy in the main-event slot who does not maximize their financial bottom line.
That's how a person knows who the crowd came to see.
Do you have any FACTS to support that claim? Come on, your a guy all about FACTS. Surely you have something to back up what your saying. Who's to say their not stealing his writings and changing words around on him? Give us all your facts. For your sake, and for the sake of this thread, you should stop FLAMING WZ employee's.
Because, it comes out in the Wrestling Observer before he ever posts it? Because when WZ has something that others don't, they make sure they point out it's a WZ exclusive? Because Dave Meltzer actually has sources in the wrestling industry and has for many many years? Because Ryan Clark actually cites The Wrestling Observer or PWInsider for some of his reports?
As far as the altering things around, you have to own the Wrestling Observer, or know someone who does. Your facts are right in there.
Once again, I never said he was a GOLDBERG TYPE charactor, I said he was LIKE it. TOTALLY DIFFERENT. But you won't understand that.
Yes...totally different...
Already explained
You shouldn't have started what you can't finish.
HAHAHAHA
Yeah, that's it. You sure did get the best of me, and I just can't hang with someone of your expertise. You are so much better at flaming people than I am. Congratulations.
Now that we got that out of the way, do you think you can drop the sillyness and just talk about the topic?
*Runs down to ringside in Sly's corner*
Its my opinion, too. The only people I talk to that truly revere the Hart's are either complete Hart fanboys that will praise anything to do with them, period... and people that specifically marked out for Owen Hart. I've never talked to anyone in real life that would lump Owen Hart into a legend grouping or that he was ever under-rated at all.
Exactly.
Did Owen have some great moments? Sure he did. So did Spike Dudley, but he's probably not heading into the Hall of Fame. Lots of people do awesome things and have awesome moments - its what they get paid to do and why they are still employed. Merely being good at your job doesn't make you Employee of the Year. Could Owen have made World Title Status if he hadn't died? Maybe, but we'll never know because he never did. He died, and the outpour of sympathy elevated him to an epic level of status. But it was out of sympathy. Its the same line of logic and thought that gives Rey Mysterio title runs in the wake of the Eddie Guerrero death.
Owen Hart was a WWE superstar. He entertained, like countless others. By today's standards.. alongside people like Khali and Mark Henry... Owen would look like Steve Austin in terms of stardom. From a 20 year standpoint though, I fail to see justification for the never ending outcry for more and more respect for Owen Hart.
Wonderful post. Well said.
to a legend list? LMFAO OMG, that proves how insane you truly are! Vader was prominent in WCW and did JACK AND SHIT in the WWE. Please. That just proves that your ego can't handle the truth or VALID points.