Remember Who We're Dealing With

[Dexter]

Someone in another thread recently reminded me who's behind the wheel at TNA. Of course I knew, but I forgot what kind of people they were and how they operate.

Specifically, I'm talking about Russo and Bischoff... two of the most controversial, and arguably two of the most brilliant minds in wrestling history. I fully expect to be called an idiot for saying that, but that just proves the first point. Controvery. Bischoff says it creates cash, and he's absolutely right.

To that end, I wanted to remind everyone here that you can't believe the vast majority of what you see on TV from these guys, and even less of what you read online. In light of that, lets keep the subjects of Kong/Bubba, Borash, and even the mini-feud with the fans in perspective. They've all been highly controversial, which makes it highly likely that they're works.

I know it's a bit of a stretch to say that, particularly about the fan situation, but you have to admit, if it was a work, it'd be a brilliant way to get over as a heel without coming out and cutting a cheap heat promo about Orlando sports teams.

My point here is, lets be on our guard and not believe everything we read on a dirt sheet, because Russo and Bischoff LOVE working the internet crowd. By all means, lets enjoy the product and suspend our disbelief as we always have, but lets temper our reactions with the very real possibility that "Random infuriating thing we read on the internet this morning" is a work.

 

[Arkham Noir]

I really don't see where your coming from on this. Are we supposed not belive things? Is that the point of this thread?I thought something productive was gonna come out of a title like "remeber who we're dealing with". TNA's stabs at getting noticed are pathetic if you take them out of the context of the wrestling world.I wish I could forget who we're dealing with,but they won't let us because they come out week after week and try to re-create WCW.I'm ashamed for them.

 

[SinCityBlitz]

Bischoff really never had a brilliant wrestling mind. He had an ATM machine that was filled by Ted Turner's bank account.

He copied the nWo off of Japan. WCW made it's living off the back of ex WWF guys who Bischoff bought with Ted's money. Let's not forget all the original ideas like Mr. T, Zeus and the screw job.


The thing Bischoff should get credit for are the Cruiserweights, getting Nitro on Monday nights(the biggest thing he did) and getting to Ted's money.

I don't think any wrestling promoter should be considered brilliant.

 

[bigbootydaddyV]

if the whole thing is a work...then exploiting what happened in Haiti is beyond controversial...it's disgusting...i really hope for TNAs sake it was not a work

 

[Dexter]

if the whole thing is a work...then exploiting what happened in Haiti is beyond controversial...it's disgusting...i really hope for TNAs sake it was not a work

You're right, and I seriously doubt that part was... seems like Bubba is just a bit of a douche. But since it happened, they might have just decided to work it into a storyline and have Bubba get his ass kicked on tv at some point in the future rather than fire him. Of course this is 100% speculation on my point and I base it on absolutely nothing other than a knowledge of how Russo and Bischoff have worked in the past.

 

[wolvdog316]

Russo a genius? Thats the biggest pile of crap I've ever heard. Not a damn part of him is intelligent. He always claims he made attitude, well sure go ahead and claim that. Nevermind Austin, Taker, HHH, Rock, Foley, have NEVER mentioned Russo being anything other than an idiot. But we will go with him being a genius

Bischoff, on the other hand, WAS a genius. He knew how to promote wrestling in a way not even Vince did at the time. The 7:57 starts, or the extended time, or anybody remember the Hogan and Sting rematch on Nitro? I believe it actually went on 25 minutes or so past the end of Nitro and they showed it during commercial breaks of whatever crappy show TNT had on after Nitro. THAT was brilliant.

The Cruiserweights, that was brilliant. Actually giving little guys like Rey, and Malenko, and Liger, and Juvy, and Jericho fantastic angles to work with, THAT was brilliant.

But Russo? WE saw how brilliant he is when he doesn't have Vince proof reading his crap angles. Was it Pinata on a pole match? The JR character, turning Goldberg heel? His feud with Ric, having David turn on Ric.

Only angle I EVER liked by Russo, was the one that never happened. Ric being the daddy of Stacys baby. That was nice. Would have liked to see that would play out. Other than that, Russo is a hack

 

[I'll Make Your Ankle Hurt]

You are right, Dexter. I've said the same thing since day one when I found out some of the trash following Hogan in will be. This is their plan, any publicity is good publicity, or as Eric puts it "controversy creates cash."

The absolute icing on the cake that gives this away? A recreation of the Montreal Screwjob, right down to the spitting in the face. TNA has no big signings to make the news this week, but still find a way to get their name out there because everyone is thinking "did they seriously do that"? An influx of WWE fans rushing in to laugh, TNA old schoolers worried about the direction of "their" company even more. Add in the other wrestling top stories this week, Kong beats Bubba, Kong leaving company, fans get told what they can say. Brilliant, and a huge influx of marks comes running to post on everyone of these subjects.

It seems unlikely, but just remember when 90% of these works are exposed, you and I were smart enough not to mark out like 90% of the rest of the wrestling world.

 

[Monky]

I'm not entirely sold on the concept that "controversy creates cash." History has shown that a good produuct and the right financial backing are what create cash. Controversy creates a brief spark of interest that can potentially create cash on the theory that new people decide to see what all the controversy is about, watch the product and like it. Bischoff and Hogan have created controversy(their mere presense creates more controversy and attention than any storyline they steal), but without a better product people will lose interest quickly because controversy can only last so long.

This is where the concept of "controversy creates cash" really fails because in order to keep people interested in your product without a supperior product you must simply create more controversy. However each controversy will have a diminished return and that will lead to more desperate attempts to create controversy, with less benefit to the product. I should note this philosophy is probably what led to David Arquette being the champion.

So unless, Bischoff and Hogan, seriously improve the product all the controversy will be for not. At this point the question is raised, have they improved the product. They brought in the Nasty Boys and "the band." In their defense, they changed the ring to four sides(I don't really know why so that was an issue for so many but a four sided ring is more appealing) and they've pushed young talent... Kinda. It took TNA a while but they had already started pushing young talent and building stars before Hogan's arrival. Hogan has also brought in a lot of other people, Orlando Jordan(I'm not familiar with him), Brian Kendrick(Never was big in the E but could help the X-Division), Val Venis(A lot of people bitched about this and I don't know why. He's not passed his prime, and while not a huge guy in the E, he was underrated in the ring and could make a good talent enhancement type), Kennedy(Every time I flipped on Raw, which isn't often, he seemed to be injured, but people smarter than me think he has greatness in him), Bubba the Love Sponge(I don't feel an explanation is order on why he is so terrible), and Jeff Hardy(Too flaky do any lasting good).

Essentially, Bischoff and Hogan need to worry about making the product itself better instead of creating controversy.

 

[trendkiller]

You're right, and I seriously doubt that part was... seems like Bubba is just a bit of a douche. But since it happened, they might have just decided to work it into a storyline and have Bubba get his ass kicked on tv at some point in the future rather than fire him. Of course this is 100% speculation on my point and I base it on absolutely nothing other than a knowledge of how Russo and Bischoff have worked in the past.

Absolutely.

I became convinced it's all a work when they did the Genesis promo. That's when Hulk turned heel on the IWC and TNA smarks.

Also, anyone claiming Russo is a fucking moron, or whatever is the cool thing to say these days, has simply chosen to believe people with a difference in opinion to the ones supporting Russo. I doubt he would have held creative positions in ALL THREE MAJOR COMPANIES IN THE PAST FIFTEEN YEARS if he was such a fucking moron.

But yes, yes, of course he's a moron but Heyman is a fucking genius. The difference is that with Paul E, people focus on the awesome angles and characters he built. With Russo, everyone shits on his creative mistakes and ignore his good stuff.

People are on either side of the fence with Bischoff (and Hogan) as well. Either you think he is (they are) creativeness personified, or you think they're fucking morons only in it for their buddies and a get-rich-quick scheme.

To summarize it: take a step back and give credit where credit is fucking due.

And also: you're being worked like a ten-year-old hoping against hope that Cena will overcome the odds.

if the whole thing is a work...then exploiting what happened in Haiti is beyond controversial...it's disgusting...i really hope for TNAs sake it was not a work

Here's a guess: Bubba got a sniff on the angle Hogan and Bisch are working with the TNA smarks and IWC and decided he wanted to "help". "Fuck Haiti" isn't quite as subtle as the stuff Hogan and Bisch are doing though, so he kind of caught heat for it. I have an inkling Bisch went mental on Bubba, considering the whole "I'm never going to work in TNA again, wah wah wah" bullshit Bubba the Cum Rag has been spewing all over Twitter.

 

[VencomHardcore]

I'm not entirely sold on the concept that "controversy creates cash." History has shown that a good produuct and the right financial backing are what create cash. Controversy creates a brief spark of interest that can potentially create cash on the theory that new people decide to see what all the controversy is about, watch the product and like it. Bischoff and Hogan have created controversy(their mere presense creates more controversy and attention than any storyline they steal), but without a better product people will lose interest quickly because controversy can only last so long.

This is where the concept of "controversy creates cash" really fails because in order to keep people interested in your product without a supperior product you must simply create more controversy. However each controversy will have a diminished return and that will lead to more desperate attempts to create controversy, with less benefit to the product. I should note this philosophy is probably what led to David Arquette being the champion.

So unless, Bischoff and Hogan, seriously improve the product all the controversy will be for not. At this point the question is raised, have they improved the product. They brought in the Nasty Boys and "the band." In their defense, they changed the ring to four sides(I don't really know why so that was an issue for so many but a four sided ring is more appealing) and they've pushed young talent... Kinda. It took TNA a while but they had already started pushing young talent and building stars before Hogan's arrival. Hogan has also brought in a lot of other people, Orlando Jordan(I'm not familiar with him), Brian Kendrick(Never was big in the E but could help the X-Division), Val Venis(A lot of people bitched about this and I don't know why. He's not passed his prime, and while not a huge guy in the E, he was underrated in the ring and could make a good talent enhancement type), Kennedy(Every time I flipped on Raw, which isn't often, he seemed to be injured, but people smarter than me think he has greatness in him), Bubba the Love Sponge(I don't feel an explanation is order on why he is so terrible), and Jeff Hardy(Too flaky do any lasting good).

Essentially, Bischoff and Hogan need to worry about making the product itself better instead of creating controversy.

You are 100% Correct ! What the Hogan fans aren't realizing is that Hogan has not produced a better product in the eyes of the people that matter most : WWE FANS ! They are the people he is going after, They are the people he needs to do his market research on.

And for those who claim that there is no such thing as bad publicity show they have no business ownership experience. Bad press can kill a company.

Examples, Original Coke vs New Coke, The First Tylenol Contamination [ 80's]

Hogan can take shots at Vince WHEN HE HAS PRODUCED A BETTER PRODUCT. Until then he needs to learn how to produce a show that has more than 15 minutes of wrestling per hour.

To WWE Fans, that makes TNA not worth watching. And that controversy will make Dixie Carter nothing.

 

[trendkiller]

You are 100% Correct ! What the Hogan fans aren't realizing is that Hogan has not produced a better product in the eyes of the people that matter most : WWE FANS ! They are the people he is going after, They are the people he needs to do his market research on.

And for those who claim that there is no such thing as bad publicity show they have no business ownership experience. Bad press can kill a company.

Examples, Original Coke vs New Coke, The First Tylenol Contamination [ 80's]

Hogan can take shots at Vince WHEN HE HAS PRODUCED A BETTER PRODUCT. Until then he needs to learn how to produce a show that has more than 15 minutes of wrestling per hour.

To WWE Fans, that makes TNA not worth watching. And that controversy will make Dixie Carter nothing.

In all fairness you have a point, if you consider it from the strawman point of view you present.

However, if you look at the demographic TNA is targetting, it's NOT 5-10 year olds and their parents. The WWE and TNA do not market themselves toward the same demographic audiences. TNA's aim is to draw in the 18-35 year old males (and females, to some extent) that grew up with the Attitude Era, where being edgy did not consist of saying "poo" or kicking someone in the "guts".

In my eyes, the TNA product is far far superior to anything the WWE has produced since the HHH vs Orton angle leading into WrestleMania last year. And the payoff for that angle was, beside the point but still relevant, absolute tripe.

Not, perhaps, as far as production VALUE goes - there are still a few things to work out for TNA (those wobbling, swaying cameras feel very amateur-ish imo, and the pyro... good God the pyro is horrible), but if and when they get their value to the equivalent levels of WWE (which means they will have to go on the road a lot more and start to pull in a lot more money), they will be just as good.

As far as storylines and characters go, though, TNA is so far ahead the WWE can't even see their tail lights anymore.

How many more times do we have to suffer through Undertaker's painfully awfully scripted promos, John Cena's stale "never give up" act, Rey Mysterio's underdog crap and Chris Jericho's boring ranting?

It's all repetitive, because that is what CHILDREN enjoy. They want things to be predictable, the humor to be childish and the characters to be "good" or "evil". In TNA, I can't even tell what's going to happen next week, much less at the next PPV!

 

[RatedRMetalStar]

This has been something I've been wondering about ever since the very first night Hogan came into TNA. Since watching, and reading the future spoilers, I've been debating on what is really going on. Are Hogan and Bischoff doing these things, and making mistakes again, which will run the company into the ground, and of course infuriate me, or is it something more?

Think of this concept. H & B are building up some of the newer talent, and also starting some feuds with the normal headliners of TNA and the older talent who have come in.(Flair with AJ and Kurt, Orlando and Pope, Anderson and Abyss, Morley and Daniels, Outsiders -- Beer Money, Nash, and even EY. And even though not older talent, but still more known Kendrick and the x-division in general.)

But with this set-up and the way things have been going and a general feel in my mind, is this just the start of something deeper and more, dare I say, Awesome?

If the angle they are going with Jarret is going to be pretty much about him overtaking his company claiming he ran it in the ground, and then H & B start doing the same stuff that ran WCW in the ground, is it just a storyline that will lead to some sort of TNA originals vs. Hogans Regime (lame name I know, but you get the idea) Where a "revolt" angle happens which brings back the 6 sides and the old iMPACT! Zone? Thus, by the end making an incredible story, returning TNA to what it has been, keeping all of the people who have been there since day 1, while keeping the Talent that has, and more than likely will, be coming into TNA, and bringing in all types of Old and New viewers to watch the "revolution" take place, and finally putting TNA in the spot they want to be -- A top competitor against the WWE. Finally doing what they have wanted from the get-go.

I know this is just a "what if", but that's what has been stopping me from fully believing that H & B haven't learned their lesson. This might just be the storyline that proves a lot of people wrong.

 

[dirtyshubb]

I have been reading peoples opinions about all the changes and comotion in TNA being a work and i could see 99% of it being true (except the Haiti comments) but the problem for me is, if this is true is this such a good descision?

Now what i mean is for me i am torn on the idea, on the one hand if it is then it would be one of the greatest works that i can remember, fooling even the i know it all smarks so for that alone i would praise it.

Now on the other hand could this all end up backfiring? I mean i am a huge TNA fan, stopped watching WWE a few years ago as it just bored me to tears and have pretty much always seen the good in the angles/descisions TNA have chosen even when the rest of the online community had slated it all over the place. But when you start making such drastic changes like the 6 sided ring, removing Borash ect it really for the first time since watching TNA made the idea of actually stopping watching TNA pop into my head.

Now im not saying i am going to as i still really enjoy the programme but could these drastic actions make people just decide "fuck this, im not gonna bother anymore"? I know it takes time to get the changes into place and working but could they end up alienating too many people before that happens.

 

[dwith73]

Bischoff really never had a brilliant wrestling mind. He had an ATM machine that was filled by Ted Turner's bank account.

He copied the nWo off of Japan. WCW made it's living off the back of ex WWF guys who Bischoff bought with Ted's money. Let's not forget all the original ideas like Mr. T, Zeus and the screw job.


The thing Bischoff should get credit for are the Cruiserweights, getting Nitro on Monday nights(the biggest thing he did) and getting to Ted's money.

I don't think any wrestling promoter should be considered brilliant.

Regardless of whre Bischoff get's his idea's he whooped ass for a very long time. Just cause you have a alot of money doesn't mean shit with out ratings, and Bischoff was smart enough to create rating's and a long time winning streak. Let me just say that it wasn't the nWo that made WcW famous, it was the Luchador wrestling, which you can say was never stolen from WWE, because it's always been pretty much non- existant in WWE, and still is. God bless the action WCW had with the lightweights back in the day.