Realism Vs Supernatural/Cartoon

[poppycock]

Which of the two do you prefer and which path would you like to see the WWE go down for the forseeable future?

I personally hope the WWE head more towards the over the top cartoony gimmicks of old. As far as fighting "sports" go Professional Wrestling is the only organisation I have ever held any interest in. I have never been a fan of boxing, amateur wrestling,MMA or any of the others and the reason for this is because the main reason I love the WWE and have loved Pro Wrestling for so long is because the "anything can happen over the top fantasy world full of larger than life characters and happenings". I am sure many of you are more into the actual in ring performances and don't get me wrong that side of it is very imporant to me aswell but am much less interested in match ups where it's two guys in MMA attire with normal names going at it than I am seeing a good in ring performance and storylines between a "Dead" Man and a deranged self abusive pyschopath who lives in boiler rooms.

Sometimes the world of professional wrestling can push it a bit far with characters like The Yeti but I personally prefer these things than I would do seeing Daniel Bryan and CM Punk Punk putting on a 5 star wrestling match (well it is just as important to me at least)

I'm not saying I would take a world of Giant Gonzalez characters over Chris Beniots but I hope the WWE apple never falls to far from the crazy (impossible in the real world) gimmicks and storylines of the 80's onwards.. I would like to continue seeing a good mix of the two but I feel the make belive Characters are either not as good or just ot there as much amongst the new breed of wrestlers.

Cody Rhodes went up many levels in my eyes since given his current over the top gimmick..

 

[TheKingHustla]

I agree with you. Guys like Undertaker, Sting, Ultimate Warrior, Kane(many like masked kane more than current kane is a perfect example) and many like them are so big because they are over the top characters. I think the WWe should do more like that. Mankind was one of the most memorable characters to me because of his sadistic nature and his antics. Those characters leave long lasting impacts on the business. I think a nice mixture of them and normal guys, especially ones with an obvious straight up gimmick, like CM Punk being straight edge, are great for the business. But it seems like they are going further away from the over the top characters. Hopefully cody keeps going in the mankind direction and they see that people are really behind him and that makes them believe in over the top characters more.

 

[cm ben]

Yeah!! I'm with you. While I don't want them to go TOO far with the gimmicks--Isaac Yankem, for example--wrestlers with gimmicks like Cody Rhodes (both "Dashing" and deranged) and CM Punk are way, way, way more interesting to me than "Stalwart Face #6" or "Conceited Heel #4."

It doesn't even need to be a defined gimmick--I don't know what he was supposed to be, exactly, but I still watch Macho Man promos, because they're hilariously entertaining. WWE should realize that their product is strange enough already--really strong men doing completely unbelievable moves to each other, fireworks going off inside arenas, etc.--that their superstars don't need to be, and probably shouldn't even try to pretend to be realistic characters. If you want realism, go and watch UFC or NFL or something. WWE is for entertainment and characters.

By the way, I wonder if they might go this way after deciding that they're not a wrestling organization anymore?

 

[Mac Attack]

I think they must find a happy medium of both. You can't just have over the top characters because then it gets weird. You need a mix of the both in order to mainain and sense. I think that they need to have some of the out there characters but they need the wrestlers who just wrestle. I think if they keep a nice balance then it will please eveeryone. I would hope thatb the WWE never decides that one path is the path to take however makes sure to keep bothyt thought processes in mind

 

[poppycock]

I also would definitely want a balance rather than too much of one thing but I have recently been worried that the WWE wants to swing a lot more towards realism to either compete with MMA or grab the hardcore MMA fans interest a little more. Obviously things like leprechauns and mask wearing narcissists mean there is still gimmicks within the WWE but I feel it is rapidly on the decline. I don't agree with peoples opinions which are "we have all grown out of gimmicks like The Undertaker nowdays". I stopped beleiving The guy who plays The Undertaker was actually dead or evil a long long time before the attitude era but that never stopped me being gripped by his demonic satanic storylines and his ongoing saga with his brother Kane. The build up to kanes debut was edge of your seat material and although in my head I knew it was just a guy playing a character, that never stopped my eager anticipation as what this "monster" would look like and what he would do in the world of make belive WWE. When he finally came he did not disapoint..he was a larger than life monster (inhumane) who could only exist either in comic books, movies, nightmares of the world of Pro Wrestling..

Seeing a viking taking on a native American..a Security guard/policeman taking on a prisoner or a Voodoo Priest... that's entertainment!

Yeah, so is a brilliant technical wrestling match between two gifted masters of the ring but I really hope the WWE brings more over the top gimmicks in for fans like myself who want to get lost in the brilliant storylines between larger than life characters

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I see nothing wrong with the path the WWE is currently on personally. The days of cartoonish characters like the Ultimate Warrior are pretty much dead and gone I think at this point. If Mark Calaway was 25 years old and debuted as The Undertaker today, in this day and age, he'd most likely be laughed right out of the building.

There will always be a certain amount of unrealistic aspects of pro wrestling and that's perfectly logical when you take into account that it's not a "legitimate" sport. The fact that it's so over the top by means of character's and their personalities is a huge selling point for wrestling these days. But there are just places in which WWE shouldn't go, or any other company for that matter.

Vince McMahon really wants to alter the general perception of what a wrestling company is and can be. To some degree, he's done that if you think about it. Fifteen years ago, celebrities wouldn't exactly be lining up to appear in WWF programming without some sort of megal payoff. Shaq appeared on and hosted Raw after all. But Vince still wants more. While I personally don't think he's ever going to reach whatever unrealistic goal he has, I do think it means that we're not going to see any Papa Shangos or Doinks or midgets running around dressed like Jerry Lawler anytime soon. I don't think that's such a bad thing personally.

 

[shooter_mcgavin]

I think they must find a happy medium of both. You can't just have over the top characters because then it gets weird. You need a mix of the both in order to mainain and sense. I think that they need to have some of the out there characters but they need the wrestlers who just wrestle. I think if they keep a nice balance then it will please eveeryone. I would hope thatb the WWE never decides that one path is the path to take however makes sure to keep bothyt thought processes in mind

I agree with this and actually makes things amusing. I remember Bad Blood 2004, the Championship Match was Chris Benoit vs. Kane. I was thinking this is a match between one whose backstory is complete BS and another whose actual wrestling career is well documented.

 

[H33LTurn]

I agree that the gimmicks are what make WWE and wrestling for that matter stand out over any other form of sport out there, however, I dont think we're going to see gimmicks like the likes of Undertaker, Mankind, or Kane anymore. WWE is slowly moving away from the supernatural, and for that matter, inconcieveable aspects of its show. WWE is taking a more reality oriented turn in its programing and gimmicks having to do with the living dead and things of that matter only defeat the purpose. We will, however see things that are still within the realm of possibility like Randy Orton's mental issue gimmick (adapted and modified after the IED storyline). Believe me, WWE still needs something unique to draw attention and theyre willing to push the envelope as far as they can to achive that goal.

 

[TheKingHustla]

I see nothing wrong with the path the WWE is currently on personally. The days of cartoonish characters like the Ultimate Warrior are pretty much dead and gone I think at this point. If Mark Calaway was 25 years old and debuted as The Undertaker today, in this day and age, he'd most likely be laughed right out of the building.

I honestly think that the undertaker could work now. You take the aspect of the lights going out, throw in a character who is eerie and "dead" looking and have him come in and wreck stuff, it would work. I think that it would be a problem only because the kiddies would be afraid. If they did it right, with all the advanced tech and things like that, they could make the undertaker work, and it could actually work better than it did before due to the advancements in technology.

You tell me that if one night out of the blue, john cena is in the ring, the lights go out, and a dead looking guy appeared in the ring and slammed him through the ring like he was taking him to hell, and dissappeared, it wouldn't work? People, especially grown men, would go ballistic.

 

[poppycock]

I honestly think that the undertaker could work now. You take the aspect of the lights going out, throw in a character who is eerie and "dead" looking and have him come in and wreck stuff, it would work. I think that it would be a problem only because the kiddies would be afraid. If they did it right, with all the advanced tech and things like that, they could make the undertaker work, and it could actually work better than it did before due to the advancements in technology.

You tell me that if one night out of the blue, john cena is in the ring, the lights go out, and a dead looking guy appeared in the ring and slammed him through the ring like he was taking him to hell, and dissappeared, it wouldn't work? People, especially grown men, would go ballistic.

I also think The Undertaker's character would work with todays fans (infact I know it would seeing as I would enjoy the gimmick today as much as I did when I first saw it and if that is the case I am sure there are many more wrestling fans who feel the same) I'm sure most people as they did back then would know it was only a character being potrayed by a wrestler/actor but that is besides the point. People read comics,watch movies and TV series about Vampires and Zombies because they like to either escape into a world of fantasy or just for that moment in time believe in something supernatural/out of this world (all the while knowing deep down it is just that..fantasy) There are plenty of sports out there in which you can watch two well built but alltogether "normal" guys/girls beating eachother up if that is all you want for entertainment but I have always liked how the World of Pro Wrestling gives you that out of the ordinary over the top entertainment and hope it strives more towards that but at the same time keeps the straight wrestling talent. A good mixture is always a good thing.

 

[mykeymayhem]

Is it just me or do all of these younger guys in WWE seem lost..they seem like they are all in limbo and none of them seem to have a persona. Okay i get it we don't have jake "the snake" roberts, vader,stone cold steve austin, or a this generations undertaker. None of these new guys have a story or a persona, All there names may as well be joe smow from windy city...or just have a shirt on that says fodder for the cena machine....the wwe needs to work on story development and developing personas for these new young guys...whats david otungas thing....hes in the nexus yes but who is he and why is he on my t.v. every monday....Idk what do you guys think i may be off base but personas would help verses hiring new talent ever month or so.

 

[poppycock]

This thread topic has been done to death..I made one myself a couple weeks ago. I agree with you though..in my opinion the WWE has to many Joe Bloggs (people fighting under there own names with no gimmicks or back storys). I would like to see much more of a mix between the Bret Hart straight up wrestling characters and the wrestlers with well writte back storys/storylines like the Kanes and Undertakers. A lot of people are saying gimmicks won't work with todays WWE fanbase but I presonally think that is rubbish. It's all going a bit MMA/realistic for my personal liking. I don't watch boxing, MMA or any other form of fighting sport other than pro wrestling and that is because altough I am very much into the wrestling and good in ring performances I also really like the character/over the top side of things.

Why has the creative side got so bad..are people really not interested in storylines/gimmicks anymore? I really do not believe that.

 

[RavenChaos21]

I think it's garbage that Gimmicks would not work in today's society. Cena is only good because he has the most personality, his gimmick is Hustle, Loyalty, and Respect. He is the hardworking every man. If Gimmicks weren't popular then Rey Mysterio and Sin Cara wouldn't be so over. Del Rio wouldn't be such a great heel. Hell, the Undertaker wouldn't be as popular as he is. The Undertaker is practically a household name. I would love to see a reincarnated version of Doink the Clown. I would love to see a gimmick that appeals to the younger demographic but has the inring ability to wow the crowd and keep them entertained. I am just tired of seeing the Orton/Daniel Bryan/Dibiase jr./Bourne/Miz/Alex Riley/Morrison/etc. They all are the same. They wrestle the same, nothing really stands out about them and we have no idea why the fuck we should care about them. There is really nothing excited about them. Where is the "wow" factor?

 

[nerd4life]

^I agree you used to tune in and be intereted in 90% of what was going on. Now I watch the beigning and ending and usually fast forward thorugh eerything in between.

They to take longer time booking feuds. Havin 9 ppvs a year instead of 12 would work but vince aint down for that.

Simply put, to many wrestlers not enough show to build good feuds.

 

[Rockyfolifebo!!!]

Exactly!!! It's boring. This is why people watch wrestling! For ENTERTAINMENT!!! We suspend reality for 2 hours about 5 days a week to be entertained be "larger than life" characters. We don't want to see everyday joe's who are no-named clones. We want to see people who don't have normal names (Rock, Taker, HHH). No personality, everyone walks around in WWE wearing the the small trunks, knee pads, and boots. There's not many unique ring gears around. Seriously, where's the creativity?

 

[amazing_blue]

If they want to appeal to kids, they should give us silly gimmicks. Where are the wrestling characters like pirates, garbage men, surfers etc? I'd rather see that than a bunch of bland clones.

It's too bad no one else would be down for that.

 

[whoopin' ass]

it is like the music industry - instead of building a person, they want someone to hit right away and if they don't, they move to the next guy. i agree, the 12 (or is it 13 now) ppvs a year are part of the problem because you need a big match every month where as before, you needed one every 3 months. that means you need competition and when you are not developing wrestlers, you end up with the cena/orton/hhh thing where they same 3 guys are always headlining main events because there is no one else at that level yet. plus the people in creative are a bunch of yes-men and are not really trying to develop and new talent. it is far easier to write "barrett loses to cena" than it is to figure out a way for barrett to cleanly beat cena.

 

[Sleep Time]

A lot of these guys do seem to be yes. Daniel Bryan I don't blame, because WWE doesn't really care about him. Guys like Jack Swagger, Cody Rhodes and John Morrison I do indeed like though. Guys like Kofi Kingston and Ted DiBiase suck though.

 

[trashboy]

Yeah, I miss the goofy gimmicks as well.. that's why I was happy when The Boogeyman was around, I liked him.. and then when he got released, I became a sad panda

also, Kizarny started out ok but was quickly released

 

[Aotearoa (Bushwacker)]

What I would love to see (just personal opinion) is a massive build with two guys like they did No Holds Barred the movie. Build a movie around a feud and have it culminate at a PPV. Bring in a whole back story and history to a feud movie style.
Or release a movie hyping a superstar before his debut. Or even as has been talked about often make the Undertaker movie sharing his kayfabe lifestory but in the movie mention some sort of protege of his and have them debut.

 

[Spidey Revivey]

Of course I want the superstars over-the-top and gimmicky. Reality is boring. I watch television to be entertained, and since WWE has become more and more about entertainment, then I see no problem with having more wrestlers being goofy or even ironically serious. The best stars in the business are pretty much caricatures of themselves. Realistic superstars are a snoozefest if they aren't either jumping from ladders or causing bodily harm to another superstar. But that's no personality. I want a show.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

"5 star match" is a stupid way to judge something. Meltzer basically graded everythink on workrate, which isn't how you judge american wrestling. The goal of a wrestling match is to get over. No one here actually knows explicitly how to perform every move, so the whole "technical match" thing is pretty stupid.

A "realistic" match is what Angle and Joe tried doing in a cage and it sucked. Plus pro wrestling isn't at all realistic in any way. Irish whipping a guy into the ropes isn't realistic.

What you have to do is keep realism within the realm you create. If your realm can have crazy characters and crazy wrestling, then you can do it. It's part of why Cara will have to adopt his style, not much of it "fits" into the current reality WWE has going.

Which do I prefer? Depends on what day it is. Either way, I appreciate great american mainstream style wrestling and great indy or japanese or old school or lucha equally.

One more thing, the indy style isn't realistic, in fact, it's less realistic than the WWE style. I've never seen a hurricarana in a fight, never.

Of course I want the superstars over-the-top and gimmicky. Reality is boring. I watch television to be entertained, and since WWE has become more and more about entertainment, then I see no problem with having more wrestlers being goofy or even ironically serious. The best stars in the business are pretty much caricatures of themselves. Realistic superstars are a snoozefest if they aren't either jumping from ladders or causing bodily harm to another superstar. But that's no personality. I want a show.

This is the best answer. I'd like to elaborate on a piece of it. The guys who get over on highspots are quickly outdated. They are outdated because, let's say you do a 450, well soon someone does a 630, then someone does a 630 with a twist. Or let's say you do a shooting star press, within a year, everyone on the indies is doing a SSP, and doing it as an intro to their finishing run, so it kills the move. However, if you create a memorable character and tell memorable stories, that can't be outdated or taken away. It's why the canadian destroyer is more over than Petey Williams and yet The Rock gets a pop off an elbow drop, it's why Flair/Steamboat is still amazing and the Dragon Gate 6 Man is outdated and looks like a circus.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

I feel wrestling needs a perfect balance of both, not just one or the other.

My biggest issue with most wrestlers today is that there are very few characters and personalities that stand out. When I look at WWE the only guys who are different from the pack are guys who have been around for 10 years minimum. Guys like Morrison, McIntyre, Ziggler, Miz and Swagger don't stand out, whether they are heel or face ALL of them are just cocky, arrogant pricks and there really isn't anything that differentiates one from the other, an accent and different clothes but really thats it. Oddly only Sin Cara, Sheamus and Barrett come off as at least being different but everyone else is either the same or is bland as all hell. To this day my favorite part of wrestling was the over the top characters that were talented in ring wise but were just great to watch. When I think of my favorite wrestlers guys like Bret Hart, Macho Man, and the Rock immediately come to mind and others like Mr. Perfect and Ted Dibiase, the only one that was more grounded and realistic was Bret Hart.

Guys like Bret give legitimacy to wrestling, they aren't the greatest talkers and may not have lots of charisma but their technical prowness makes up for every short coming they have. Because they are so good between the ropes you believe they can beat ANYBODY because of their unmatched skillset.

I guess they best way to put it is that wrestling is sports entertainment and you need both the sport (eg. Bret Hart) and the entertainment (eg. Macho Man). They both fit together in wrestling.

Wrestling in general is always better when they feel "real", but if its just 2 plain jane wrestlers with great skill it gets boring fast and thats where the over the top, entertaining characters fit in.

In wrestling you need both, if people just wanted realism they would just watch UFC and if they wanted entertainment they would watch Big Bang Theory or something, wrestling is the best of both worlds.

 

[triple_b2k]

I miss the cartonnish characters WWE had years ago. Look at the roster in the 90's... you had a clown (doink), garbage man (duke the dumpster), a bum (brooklyn brawler), race car driver (bob holly) and a millionaire (ted dibiase). A lot of them really silly and downright dumb, but they were different. You see the guys coming out of FCW and most mid-card talent in the WWE, they're ALL THE SAME. They look like basic clones or WWE has a rule of what you must wear and look like to be wrestling.

The attitude era killed the cartoonish characters in favor of cool heels (nwo), gangs (nation of domination, doa,), etc. Now we're in the PG era but nothing has really changed. It's a watered down Attitude era without the swearing and sex. It's just boring.

I'm not saying bring back matches that involve a garbage man and clown, but bring back some fun.

 

[TheNewStyle]

To be honest what I like about fictional entertainment stuff is the over the top nature of them. I wouldn't like Grand Theft Auto had it not been for the total fiction in it and the ability to take on a whole army on your own and still survive. Similarly, I actually love the "super"/"indestructible" route John Cena and Randy Orton have sort of gone to in the recent years. Many say it's over the top and therefore, both wrestlers are catching lots of heat for being "SuperOrton/Cena" but to me, that's what I like about them. That's what makes them characters that work as heroes. The fact they can take beatings and still be the last to stand tall.

And characters like Undertaker? Love it! I still wonder how he can suddenly appear in the middle of a ring so fast when the lights go out for like 5 seconds.