Rd. 1 Submission - Bret Hart (CAN) vs Kurt Angle (USA)

[IrishCanadian25]

Bret Hart (CAN) vs Kurt Angle (USA)​

This is a first round Submission Match in the 2010 Wrestlezolympics. This match will be contested under general Submission Match Rules. The match will continue without pinfalls until a wrestler either taps out or is rendered unconscious by an opponents submission maneuver. WZO Submission Matches are contested under no count-out, no DQ rules, but the match can only end via submission inside the ring.

The match will open for discussion on Monday, January 25th, and voting will begin on Wednesday, January 27th. This is a non-spam thread, so if you decide to post, you must provide reasons why you are backing a particular wrestler. You may vote without posting.

 

[Baller]

MTFO!!!

This is going to be a classic match, but I see Bret Hart picking up the victory here. Bret Hart is known for his sharpshooter, and even though I never got to see Hart wrestle I do know, it was near impossible to break that sharpshooter, while as of late Angle's Ankle Lock has been broken time and time again which will be the downfall for Kurt.

Angle will have the Ankle Lock on but Hart will escape and once he gets the sharpshooter it is all over.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Do I go with Bret Hart who's take the time to start working over a wrestlers legs and back from the very beginning of the match, or do I go with Kurt Angle who'll apply the Ankle Lock for 20 minutes until it finally breaks?

 

[D-Man]

I love this match and I'm thanking my lucky stars that it's happening in Round One. What a way to begin IC25's brainchild. And the biggest deal about the match is the fact that whoever loses WON'T come out with a medal in this event. It's almost a foregone conclusion that the winner here will probably grab the gold. So let's begin...

Bret Hart
He was classically trained in the Hart family dungeon... one of the most intense pro-wrestling clinics in existence. The dungeon taught their wrestlers to constantly get "stretched"... another word for shoot-submitted. If you were stretched in the dungeon, you didn't tap because the match called for it... you tapped because it FUCKING HURT.

Bret is arguably the #1 student to come out of this and his moveset shows. His Sharpshooter is one of the greatest submission holds in the history of pro-wrestling. But this hasn't been his only weapon for victory. The dungeon taught him to adapt to his surroundings and absorb his opponents' submission holds and sometimes use them against them. Maybe some of you might recall his feud with Bob Backlund... he gained a victory by using Bob's own Crossface Chicken Wing against him.

Bret is perfectly molded for this matchup. But if there's anyone that can give him a run for his money, it's...

Kurt Angle
The self-proclaimed "Greatest Wrestler in the World", and probably well-deserved and earned.

He is an Olympic gold medalist in Greco-Roman wrestling, which specializes in absolute control over an opponent's body and forcing them to provide openings that would allow someone to pin their shoulders to a mat... a sign of pure domination.

He took it upon himself to become a student of mixed martial arts (MMA), which requires an extensive jujitsu background.

His pro-wrestling finisher is the Angle-lock... a superior version of Ken Shamrock's ankle-lock submission hold. Kurt Angle turned (what was viewed to be) a painful submission manueuver into an absolutely devastating will-breaker.

He reinvented the move by adding his own twist (no pun intended) to it... "locking in the grapes". The "grapes" is a term that stands for "grapevines", a scholastic wrestling move that requires a grappler to wrap their legs around an opponents limbs (just like a grapevine in a garden) and immobolize them so you could have your way with them. Once Kurt locks in the grapes, there is no escape.

Analysis
Bret Hart's Sharpshooter is devastating, but it's also escapable and reversible. This has been proven many times in the past. It is flawed, and this will be his demise.

If you haven't noticed, Kurt Angle has a much better resume than Bret Hart when it comes to submission wrestling. He is experienced in multiple styles of submission, both kayfabe and shoot. And once he locks in "the grapes" on his opponent, there is no escape. That is the difference-maker here.

Pro-wrestling masterhood + MMA background + Olympic gold medal = DEVASTATION

Kurt Angle is going to snap Bret Hart's ankle. PERIOD.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

As someone who is still uncertain of whom he will back in this match, I do want to provide a word of caution against making a choice based solely on how the ankle lock is easier to break than the sharpshooter. Yes, that is true, but consider the following:

1. The ankle lock is also easier to apply.

2. It is easier to "roll through" an attempt to break the ankle lock and maintain control.

3. The ankle lock, in theory, does more lasting damage to a specific, weight-bearing part of the body if it is broken.

4. The ankle lock allows the applier a greater range and freedom of motion to prevent a reversal or a rope break, whereas the applier of the sharpshooter must just sit back and hold on for dear life.

5. The ankle lock can be applied easily to a man of any size, whereas the sharpshooter is far more difficult to apply onto larger or stronger men.

Just a few points...

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Maybe some of you might recall his feud with Bob Backlund... he gained a victory by using Bob's own Crossface Chicken Wing against him.

I do, it produced one of the most boring PPV matches in history. From what I can recall Backlund had Hart in the Chickenwing for 20 minutes before Owen Hart convinced his mother to throw in the towel. People habitually last 20 minutes in the Ankle Lock before giving up, maybe Bret could last longer if needed.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

1. The ankle lock is also easier to apply.

It is, but I think that also shows Kurt Angle's limiations. It's so easy to apply that he's alwasy going for it. He also perseveres with it in the hope it will finish off his opponent, even if it's not.

5. The ankle lock can be applied easily to a man of any size, whereas the sharpshooter is far more difficult to apply onto larger or stronger men.

True, but Kurt Angle, with back problems, is the perfect size for the Sharpshooter.

I can also only remember one person having their ankle broken by Kurt Angle, Big Show I believe. That's not a high succession rate for a move that focuses on one part of the body.

 

[Thriller Ant]

I'm going to go with Angle here. Yes, the Ankle Lock gets broken in one way or another at least once a match these days, but it still seems that he gets his opponent to tap somehow. He has the normal Ankle Lock, he can grapevine it with his legs (making it nearly impossible to escape), and as shown in his recent match against Desmond Wolfe, he has the Triangle Choke. The Sharpshooter is one of the most iconic moves in wrestling history, but the fact that Angle has mastery over two devastating submissions should give him the win in this dream match-up.

 

[D-Man]

I do, it produced one of the most boring PPV matches in history. From what I can recall Backlund had Hart in the Chickenwing for 20 minutes before Owen Hart convinced his mother to throw in the towel. People habitually last 20 minutes in the Ankle Lock before giving up, maybe Bret could last longer if needed.

Well, I agree that match sucked balls and Bret was held in the submission for 8 1/2 minutes, but that's not what I was talking about. I'm referring to the slightly more exciting return match where Bret used the crossface against Backlund and gained the victory at Wrestlemania IX. This is the example that I was giving in reference to Bret's ability to adap to his opponents' submission holds and use them against them.

 

[Blade]

Analysis
Bret Hart's Sharpshooter is devastating, but it's also escapable and reversible. This has been proven many times in the past. It is flawed, and this will be his demise.

Wow, seriously, D-Man? Remember, the Sharpshooter is the submission hold that Steve Austin, who at the time was a very able technical wrestler, passed out in because he couldn't find a way to escape or reverse it.

Meanwhile, over half the people who have been put in the ankle lock have been able to reverse it. Hell, AJ Styles alone has reversed or escaped it 10-15 time over the last month or so.

To say that the sharpshooter is easier to escape from than the ankle lock is ridiculous, you have your whole upper body and your free leg to help you get out of it. With that being sad, I think both Angle and Hart would be good enough to escape each other's submissions. I think it comes down to who can do enough damage so that the other guy cannot escape the submission hold.

 

[D-Man]

Meanwhile, over half the people who have been put in the ankle lock have been able to reverse it. Hell, AJ Styles alone has reversed or escaped it 10-15 time over the last month or so.

To say that the sharpshooter is easier to escape from than the ankle lock is ridiculous, you have your whole upper body and your free leg to help you get out of it. With that being sad, I think both Angle and Hart would be good enough to escape each other's submissions. I think it comes down to who can do enough damage so that the other guy cannot escape the submission hold.

This is where everyone seems to misread an important fact that I stated in my analysis... when Kurt Angle locks in the "grapes", there is little to no survival and reversal rate.

If you want to compare the Sharpshooter to the Angle Lock, you need to compare them at their deadliest levels. I agree that the Sharpshooter may not compare to the quick version of the Angle Lock, but Kurt is too smart to lock it on Bret without the grapevines being applied. Expect the full devastation of the move in this matchup.

Angle Lock + "grapevines" >>> Sharpshooter

 

[klunderbunker]

Leaning towards Angle here.

The thing is, Bret was a great wrestler. Angle was the best wrestler in the world. You're asking Bret to get Angle down on the mat and get a hold on him? Angle won a gold medal down on a mat. Bret is in trouble here as everything he can do Angle can match. Also as it's been said, the ankle lock is much easier to apply. This is going to go for a LONG time, but I'll take Angle getting the Benoit tap, as in Bret is just stuck in the middle of the ring and gives up.

 

[LascoX]

This matchup is an instant classic, easily going 45 min with a mixture of pure wrestling , near submissions and gutcheck escapes. In the end though I see Hart pile driving Angle and finally slapping the sharpshooter on in the middle of the ring. After several minutes of agony and near escapes Angle is forced to tap. Team Canada picks up their first win

 

[No Hype]

Ok I am assuming here that we are talking about both of there wrestlers in their prime cause right now a 52 year old stroke victim vs a 41 year old olympic gold medalist in wrestling the answer would be obvious.

Now that being said I still go with Kurt. Bret was the best there was but the best there is, is now Kurt when it comes to submissions. Angle in pro wrestling has been known for the Angle lock but he is capable of so much more due to his amateur wrestling background and he would pull out all the stops against Hart.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

The Ankle Lock is a much easier move to reverse or counter as it seems everybody does at least two or three times a match against Angle. I think Hart would be wary enough after the first couple of attempts. In response to KB's assertion that Angle is the best wrestler in the world, Edge has won more against Angle than vice versa so would you assume that Edge is better than Bret Hart? If Angle wasn't the best wrestler in the world, he wouldn't have such a low win/loss percentage as he did in the last few years of his WWE career. I don't see either guy tapping but I think Hart can work over Angle's back and neck area just enough to lock on the Sharpshooter and Angle has so much pride that he will pass out rather than submit.

 

[Miko]

Leaning towards the Hitman in this one, his style might not be as high impact as Angle's but Bret was a whole different kind of vicous, he'll work your legs and your back for as long as it takes until he can apply the sharpshooter. None of that taking the straps down and yelling nonsensical bollocks into the camera shite. Bret just got on with it.

Now the Ankle lock has been broken an awful lot in the past, and you gotta believe that someone as competent as Bret will find a way out of it everytime, I believe Kurts applied the grapevine to AJ Styles and AJ broke it by doing something very novel, he punched Kurt in the leg until he let go. Pure brilliance. Also Kurt Angle is bald, history has shown that bald men dont fare well in the sharpshooter.

I dunno, my money and vote are with Bret at the moment, I cant think of a way that Angle's going to outdo him in this one.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Im not even going to read all of the silliness im sure is contained in this thread

Um, Kurt Angle won the fucking olympics, with a fracture in his neck. /thread.

I love Hart as much as anyone, but there is just zero argument to be had. Hey, lets put Bret Hart in a fucking cage fight against Brock Lesnar, and listen to arguments for that, too.

 

[Monkey_Mania]

Angle, even with the neck injuries, is more vicious, and more ruthless than Bret Hart. Angle has always been in top physical shape. With his conditioning and his weight training. He's stronger, faster, and more versatile. Plus he will do anything to win. He's wrestled through broken necks, and every other injury he's ever had. I don't see how he would lose here. He doesn't just have the ankle lock. He's also got submissions from his amateur background as well. Bret Hart is awesome, but he loses this match.

 

[Shocky]

I have to agree with Team Angle on this one. Bret Hart was methodical, and he was great at working on an extremity throughout the course of a match. The problem was, Bret Hart never faced a man that was as intense int he ring as Kurt Angle.

Angle is simply a monster in the ring, becomming one of the few guys that I can remember to make Hulk Hogan tap out. Yes, Bret Hart won his Submission I Quit match against the likes of Steve Austin, but Kurt Angle made Stone Cold tap out. Kurt Angle is an animal, and will come at Hart like no one ever has before.

 

[Tastycles]

Im not even going to read all of the silliness im sure is contained in this thread

Um, Kurt Angle won the fucking olympics, with a fracture in his neck. /thread.

I love Hart as much as anyone, but there is just zero argument to be had. Hey, lets put Bret Hart in a fucking cage fight against Brock Lesnar, and listen to arguments for that, too.

If this was a genuine competition, then Angle would obviously win. But if this was a genuine competition, Big Show would win the ladder match by punching his opponent and then climbing it. But this isn't real, it's professional wrestling, and Kurt Angle lost a submission match to Chris Benoit, who is an inferior submission wrestler to Hart.

Bret Hart made a career out of innovatively getting people into the sharpshooter. He pretty much never tapped out, which can't be said of Angle, and unlike Angle he also won matches with the figure four, which makes him far more dynamic in this sort of thing. Harldy anybody moved once the sharpshooter was locked in, fucking everyone makes it to the ropes in the ankle lock. Both of these men have lost the most significant submission matches they ever had, but Hart lost because his brother cheated and Angle lost because he gave up.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

It doesn't matter that Angle is a freaking machine. He's tapped out before as well as another noted submission artist in Chris Benoit. As it has been mentioned before, everybody has broken out of the Ankle Lock at least once in every match and sometimes multiple times. Hell even HBK was in the Ankle Lock for like two minutes after giving up. Hart would be smart enough to apply the Sharpshooter in the middle of the ring and work on Kurt Angle's neck and back during the match so he won't get to the ropes. If this was Olympic style wrestling, Kurt would win but this ain't Olympic style wrestling. Hart goes over Angle.

 

[Supernova]

Yeah Angle's Olympic Gold means little her,e otherwise he's technically unbeatable as every argument will centre around "but he won the Olympics" which kind of makes any match he's in redundant. In pro wrestling terms, Hart's sharpshooter was never broken, whereas everyone's broken the Ankle Lock before, and at WM HBK held on for what seemed like 10 mins before tapping, showing it probably doesn't hurt as much as the Sharpshooter.

 

[D-Man]

OMG people... cut the crapola..

GOD FORBID Kurt Angle taps out in a submission match once or twice in his career against the likes of someone like Chris Benoit... gee, that must make him totally suck at submission matches, right?!?

You want REAL stats? Let's take a look:

Bret Hart's Notable Submission Matches
Jerry Lawler @ Summerslam 1993 - Bret loses after failing to release Lawler from the Sharpshooter.
Bob Backlund @ Survivor Series 1994 - Bret loses after Davey Boy throws in the towel
Bob Backlund @ WM XI - Bret wins after submitting Backlund with his own Crossface Chickenwing
Steve Austin @ WM13 - Bret wins after Austin passes out

Record: 2-2

Kurt Angle's Notable Submission Matches
Chris Benoit @ Backlash 2000 - Angle loses in an Ultimate Submission Match 4-3 (overtime)
Chris Benoit @ Judgement Day 2000 - Angle wins the second of the 2 out of 3 falls match (a submission match) and goes on to win the entire match afterwards
(Honorable Mention - Angle forced Hulk Hogan to tap out at King of the Ring 2002)

Record: 4-4 (if you count every tapout of the submission matches)


Judging by these statistics, we can only look at things this way:
-Angle and Bret Hart have even records in submission matches (cancels each other out)
-Bret Hart defeated Steve Austin by submission, but Kurt Angle defeated Hulk Hogan by submission (cancels each other out)

The tiebreakers here are in experience and difficulty. Even though their records are the same, Kurt Angle has technically been in more submission matches than Bret Hart. On top of that, while Bret Hart was facing Bob Backlund, Kurt Angle was facing Chris-fucking-Benoit.

Kurt Angle has more experience in this match set and has defeated more difficult opponents than Bret Hart.

Kurt Angle wins here... you can't deny it.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

OMG people... cut the crapola..

GOD FORBID Kurt Angle taps out in a submission match once or twice in his career against the likes of someone like Chris Benoit... gee, that must make him totally suck at submission matches, right?!?

You want REAL stats? Let's take a look:

Bret Hart's Notable Submission Matches
Jerry Lawler @ Summerslam 1993 - Bret loses after failing to release Lawler from the Sharpshooter.
Bob Backlund @ Survivor Series 1994 - Bret loses after Davey Boy throws in the towel
Bob Backlund @ WM XI - Bret wins after submitting Backlund with his own Crossface Chickenwing
Steve Austin @ WM13 - Bret wins after Austin passes out

Record: 2-2

Kurt Angle's Notable Submission Matches
Chris Benoit @ Backlash 2000 - Angle loses in an Ultimate Submission Match 4-3 (overtime)
Chris Benoit @ Judgement Day 2000 - Angle wins the second of the 2 out of 3 falls match (a submission match) and goes on to win the entire match afterwards
(Honorable Mention - Angle forced Hulk Hogan to tap out at King of the Ring 2002)

Record: 4-4 (if you count every tapout of the submission matches)


Judging by these statistics, we can only look at things this way:
-Angle and Bret Hart have even records in submission matches (cancels each other out)
-Bret Hart defeated Steve Austin by submission, but Kurt Angle defeated Hulk Hogan by submission (cancels each other out)

The tiebreakers here are in experience and difficulty. Even though their records are the same, Kurt Angle has technically been in more submission matches than Bret Hart. On top of that, while Bret Hart was facing Bob Backlund, Kurt Angle was facing Chris-fucking-Benoit.

Kurt Angle has more experience in this match set and has defeated more difficult opponents than Bret Hart.

Kurt Angle wins here... you can't deny it.

1. You cannot simultaneously count a loss for Bret against Backlund (the Helen Hart towel throw) AND a win for him over Austin, since Bret didn't submit in the first case and Austin didn't submit in the second case.

2. Angle made Hogan tap out? Well so did Lex Luger. Does that mean Luger goes over Hart in a submission match?

3. Angle has been in more submission matches BECAUSE submission specialists like Bret Hart popularized the art form, allowing guys like Benoit and Jericho to become more popular with their styles.

I am not sure who I am backing yet, but I just had to kick D-Man in the balls.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

I'd even say that demeriting Bret for the submission match against Lawler is a poor argument. He still basically won that match, only losing it because he wouldn't release the Sharpshooter. Not only did he win, but he put in a dominating performance in that match.

Also, at the time, the Crossface Chicken-Wing was put over as quite possibly the most dangerous hold in professional wrestling. Backlund was a maniac, and they put that move over so much that he even did it to backstage workers, kayfabe breaking arms.

Plus, Bret's win over Stone Cold Steve Austin was in two words, historic and significant. It truly helped launched Stone Cold into the phenomenon that he wound up being. It was a perfect match, with Bret methodically taking out Austin's leg, and the match itself telling the story, with the fans really starting to get behind Austin as a result of this match. None of Angle's submission match victories are as significant as this match was.

Furthermore, Bret Hart is a career 2-0 vs. Chris Benoit, making him submit to the Sharpshooter both times.

Kurt Angle is a good WRESTLER, sure. But as a submission artist? I'm not really that sure about that. If Kurt is so good at MMA, why hasn't he had a professional match yet? It's a poor excuse for him to cite TNA's work schedule as well. Lashley is doing just fine juggling both right now. The Anklelock is much easier to break out of than the Sharpshooter. The Sharpshooter also requires much more technique than the ankelock. Also, who else remembers when Daniel Puder nearly snapped Angle's arm when he had him locked in a Kimura? Angle had no idea how to get out of that. If Kurt found himself locked in a Sharpshooter, I highly doubt he'd be able to find a way out.

Dan Henderson is a very accomplished Mixed Martial Artist. He represented the USA in the Summer Olympics in 1992 and 1996. Despite this, he holds ONE career victory out of TWENTY-FIVE by submission. He has THREE career submission losses. Just because someone competed in the Olympics, it doesn't mean they are submission wrestlers.

Bret takes it here, just barely, but he takes it.