Rd. 2 Submission - Bret Hart (CAN) vs Samoa Joe (SAM)

[IrishCanadian25]

Bret Hart (CAN) vs Samoa Joe (SAM)​

This is a second round Submission Match in the 2010 Wrestlezolympics. This match will be contested under general Submission Match Rules. The match will continue without pinfalls until a wrestler either taps out or is rendered unconscious by an opponents submission maneuver. WZO Submission Matches are contested under no count-out, no DQ rules, but the match can only end via submission inside the ring.

The match will open for discussion on Wednesday, February 3rd, and voting will begin on Thursday, February 4th. This is a non-spam thread, so if you decide to post, you must provide reasons why you are backing a particular wrestler. You may vote without posting.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

This will be an absolute war that could last for damn near between 45 minutes to an hour. Bret was the master of the Sharpshooter and damn near beat everybody with it but Samoa Joe isn't a novice to submissions himself. Ask Angle. Daniels, or AJ Styles. Joe has various chokes and STF's in his arsenal and will be on Hart all through this match. It does take one mistake for Hart to put on the Sharpshooter but could he withstand all of Joe's arsenal including a Muscle Buster into a Coquina Clutch? I don't know who to pick so I'm going to wait to see what other arguments are going to be made.

 

[Leafy]

Well I'm going to go against the legend here and pick Joe. Bret faced technical wrestlers before and big wrestlers before. We've seen him face and beat almost everybody except Joe is like no other wrestler.

He's fast, technical, and is a powerhouse. While Hart has the Sharpshooter, Joe has the coquina clutch, STF, Muscle Buster, Island Driver. Frankly the list goes on and on. He can finish this match from any spot in the ring. To keep Joe on the ground to lock in the sharpshooter will need power. Hart just does not have the power to overcome Joe, which he will need to beat him. Joe can lock in the Clutch from any time. Giving him the advantage.

We've seen Joe face, I would say, a wider variety of opponents than Hart has. He was in the X Division, Japan, TNA Heavyweight, all across America's indy scene. And he's left a mark where ever he left. We've seen him beat one of the greatest technical wrestlers ever, Angle, numerous times. He's faced better opponents than Hart and would beat him. Not saying this wouldn't be an hour long classic, but Joe would stand victorious, bloody, but still the winner.

 

[Big Sexy]

He's fast, technical, and is a powerhouse. While Hart has the Sharpshooter, Joe has the coquina clutch, STF, Muscle Buster, Island Driver. Frankly the list goes on and on. He can finish this match from any spot in the ring.

Just because you have an abundance of moves doesn't mean they will all be effective. To my knowledge Bret Hart has never given up in his career and I don't see why it would be any different here. Also, Bret was trained in the dungeon so I'm sure he knows his fair share of holds. Just because he didn't use many of them during his career doesn't mean he couldn't bust them out here in WZ Olympics.

To keep Joe on the ground to lock in the sharpshooter will need power. Hart just does not have the power to overcome Joe, which he will need to beat him. Joe can lock in the Clutch from any time. Giving him the advantage.

Bret Hart was able to get Yokozuna's fat ass in the sharpshooter. I'm sure he will have no problem at all with Joe.

We've seen him beat one of the greatest technical wrestlers ever, Angle, numerous times. He's faced better opponents than Hart and would beat him.

Bret Hart has a ton more impressive wins then Joe does. Hart has beaten the likes of Mr Perfect, Shawn Michaels, the Undertaker, Diesel, Sting, Chris Benoit, and Goldberg. Shit Hart once made Sting and Benoit both tap out in the same night to win the WCW title.

 

[Leafy]

Just because you have an abundance of moves doesn't mean they will all be effective. To my knowledge Bret Hart has never given up in his career and I don't see why it would be any different here. Also, Bret was trained in the dungeon so I'm sure he knows his fair share of holds. Just because he didn't use many of them during his career doesn't mean he couldn't bust them out here in WZ Olympics.

While Bret Hart has the formal experience of The Dungeon, Joe has had the personal experience of many indy wrestlers across the globe. Hart stayed in major companies most of his career. Joe has faced every move-set you can think of. From El Generico to Danielson to Sting. He's faced them all. No matter what training you receive it can't compare to the personal resume Joe has received.

Bret Hart was able to get Yokozuna's fat ass in the sharpshooter. I'm sure he will have no problem at all with Joe.

Joe and Yoko are two completely different wrestlers. Yoko, you can out maneuver and pull out technical wrestling on him to easily get the sharpshooter on him. Joe is a fast moving powerhouse. They are two completely types of wrestlers. We've seen Joe escape from Sting's Scorpion lock and on the other hand we've seen Yoko break the turnbuckle when doing a move.

Bret Hart has a ton more impressive wins then Joe does. Hart has beaten the likes of Mr Perfect, Shawn Michaels, the Undertaker, Diesel, Sting, Chris Benoit, and Goldberg. Shit Hart once made Sting and Benoit both tap out in the same night to win the WCW title.

While Joe has beat many top stars Joe has his own resume. Sting, Angle, Styles, Homicide, Sabu, Jeff Jarrett, and to top Hart's one night feat, Joe beat Abyss, Spike, and Raven in a Monster's Ball match. No matter what Hart throws at him, Joe is able to beat him.

 

[Big Sexy]

While Bret Hart has the formal experience of The Dungeon, Joe has had the personal experience of many indy wrestlers across the globe. Hart stayed in major companies most of his career. Joe has faced every move-set you can think of. From El Generico to Danielson to Sting. He's faced them all. No matter what training you receive it can't compare to the personal resume Joe has received.

So you're saying that Joe facing a bunch of nobodies in indy feds has prepared him to beat a wrestling legend in Bret Hart? And exactly what "move-sets" has Joe seen that Hart hasn't?

Joe and Yoko are two completely different wrestlers. Yoko, you can out maneuver and pull out technical wrestling on him to easily get the sharpshooter on him. Joe is a fast moving powerhouse. They are two completely types of wrestlers. We've seen Joe escape from Sting's Scorpion lock and on the other hand we've seen Yoko break the turnbuckle when doing a move.

You said Bret Hart did not have the power overcome Joe. Bret Hart has beaten plenty of bigger and stronger wrestlers then Samoa Joe.

While Joe has beat many top stars Joe has his own resume. Sting, Angle, Styles, Homicide, Sabu, Jeff Jarrett,

That list is shit compared to Hart's. If Homicide and Sabu are considered big wins then I could have added a lot more guys to the list of big names Bret has beaten.

and to top Hart's one night feat, Joe beat Abyss, Spike, and Raven in a Monster's Ball match. No matter what Hart throws at him, Joe is able to beat him.

Really? Fucking Really? You're trying to tell me that winning a hardcore match over Raven, Abyss, and Spike motherfucking Dudley is the equivalent of making Sting and Chris Benoit tap out in the same night to win the WCW Heavyweight Title. You need to quit while your behind.

 

[LascoX]

Hart has more than the Sharpshooter in his arsenal to apply to an opponant. He is use to going against bigger opponants and has a life time of experiance in submission wrestling having been raised by Stu Hart in the Dungeon. Joe is very competant in a submission enviorment as well but at the end of the day I'm going to go with the experiance of Hart for the win. If Hart can make it by Angle in round one he should be able to make it by Joe in round two. I do think this is going to be one of the better matches of round two lasting well over thirty minutes.

 

[Leafy]

So you're saying that Joe facing a bunch of nobodies in indy feds has prepared him to beat a wrestling legend in Bret Hart? And exactly what "move-sets" has Joe seen that Hart hasn't?

High flying ones? When Hart wrestled high flying cruiserweights were just starting. Joe wrestled in one of the greatest cruiserweight divisions of all time, the TNA X Division. There is good wrestlers on the Indy scene. Danielson, Black, Strong, Claudio, Quackenbush? Any of those ring a bell?

You said Bret Hart did not have the power overcome Joe. Bret Hart has beaten plenty of bigger and stronger wrestlers then Samoa Joe.

He doesn't have the power to beat a powerhouse that can move almost as fast as him. Bret has speed but Joe has it also. Joe has power but Hart doesn't.

Really? Fucking Really? You're trying to tell me that winning a hardcore match over Raven, Abyss, and Spike motherfucking Dudley is the equivalent of making Sting and Chris Benoit tap out in the same night to win the WCW Heavyweight Title. You need to quit while your behind.

So you're telling me beating 3 of the faces in ECW in a hardcore match is an easy feat? Raven is the man who reigned over a hardcore company during its glory days? Or how about Sabu who would kill himself if his opponent got hurt too. Or even Spike, sure his offense sucks but you could drop the guy in his head and he would get back up to fight you. And to bring up the rules, this match is no DQ, you can say Hart can beat Joe in technical skills but that means shit when Joe brings out the Singapore cane.

 

[Big Sexy]

High flying ones? When Hart wrestled high flying cruiserweights were just starting. Joe wrestled in one of the greatest cruiserweight divisions of all time, the TNA X Division. There is good wrestlers on the Indy scene. Danielson, Black, Strong, Claudio, Quackenbush? Any of those ring a bell?

First, Bret had an amazing match on one of the early episodes of RAW against Sean Waltman. Secondly, how is the fact that Joe has wrestled a bunch of cruiserweights relevant at all to this match up?

He doesn't have the power to beat a powerhouse that can move almost as fast as him. Bret has speed but Joe has it also. Joe has power but Hart doesn't.

Bam Bam Bigelow, Scott Hall, Bill fucking Goldberg. Bret Hart has beaten plenty of guys that are both strong and quick.

So you're telling me beating 3 of the faces in ECW in a hardcore match is an easy feat?

Did the match take place in ECW? No. Spike and Sabu were basically spot monkey jobbers in TNA and Raven at that time wasn't a whole lot better.

And to bring up the rules, this match is no DQ, you can say Hart can beat Joe in technical skills but that means shit when Joe brings out the Singapore cane.

Bret Hart beat Stone Cold Steve Austin in this exact same match type. Say what you want about Joe, but he is no Steve Austin. Bret has beaten guys better then Joe and he has beaten guys with similar physical attributes.

 

[Leafy]

First, Bret had an amazing match on one of the early episodes of RAW against Sean Waltman. Secondly, how is the fact that Joe has wrestled a bunch of cruiserweights relevant at all to this match up?

I wouldn't call Sean Waltman on the same level as MCMG, Jack Evans, or most of the X Division. You asked what kind of move-set has Joe faced and Hart hasen't. I answered your question.

Bam Bam Bigelow, Scott Hall, Bill fucking Goldberg. Bret Hart has beaten plenty of guys that are both strong and quick.

As the evidence shows he has faced fast and quick opponents. But I ask who retired him, oh yeah Goldberg. And while those guys have the speed and power of Joe he also brings a technical and MMA background to the fight giving him the edge again. Show me a wrestler with the MMA background as extensive as Joe's.

Did the match take place in ECW? No. Spike and Sabu were basically spot monkey jobbers in TNA and Raven at that time wasn't a whole lot better.

So Sabu was a spot monkey jobber in TNA? I think he beat Abyss in a barb wire match. That's an amazing feat and Raven won the TNA title. I think that's a little bit above jobber level. I admit Spike was a jobber but he still could give a good fight.

Bret Hart beat Stone Cold Steve Austin in this exact same match type. Say what you want about Joe, but he is no Steve Austin. Bret has beaten guys better then Joe and he has beaten guys with similar physical attributes.

Yes Joe is no Stone Cold. But Bret beat him when Austin was still young. And Austin doesn't have the extensive technical background Joe brings. This is a no DQ match and we've seen Joe get hardcore from his early days to the "Nation of Violence". This man can fly, hit, and grapple. Bret can just grapple, well I'll give him that but you can't grapple a man with a chair.

And I would like to say good debate. For me any ways. It might be a usual one for you.

 

[Big Sexy]

I wouldn't call Sean Waltman on the same level as MCMG, Jack Evans, or most of the X Division. You asked what kind of move-set has Joe faced and Hart hasen't. I answered your question.

I think you are severely underrating Waltman, but again this whole point is irrelevant to the match in question.

As the evidence shows he has faced fast and quick opponents. But I ask who retired him, oh yeah Goldberg.

Goldberg retired him because he was an inexperienced, unsafe worker. It was more the fact that Hart kept wrestling after Goldberg gave him the concussion and not the concussion itself.

And while those guys have the speed and power of Joe he also brings a technical and MMA background to the fight giving him the edge again. Show me a wrestler with the MMA background as extensive as Joe's.

How about UFC Hall of Famer Ken Shamrock. Is he good enough for you? Bret and the Hart Foundation had a nice little feud with him.

So Sabu was a spot monkey jobber in TNA? I think he beat Abyss in a barb wire match.

Basically yes. He was in a lot of big matches but with the exception of the barbed wire match against Abyss he lost almost all of them. Spot monkey jobber to the stars.

and Raven won the TNA title. I think that's a little bit above jobber level.

He had the title for a couple months, but that was a year before this Monster's Ball match you are speaking of took place. Raven at that point was not a main eventer. Even if he was it is still not nearly as impressive as defeating Chris Benoit and Sting in the same night. With both wins coming by submission.

Yes Joe is no Stone Cold. But Bret beat him when Austin was still young. And Austin doesn't have the extensive technical background Joe brings. This is a no DQ match and we've seen Joe get hardcore from his early days to the "Nation of Violence". This man can fly, hit, and grapple. Bret can just grapple, well I'll give him that but you can't grapple a man with a chair.

I don't care if Joe could cure cancer, he isn't going to beat Bret Hart. Bret is a wrestling legend. Samoa Joe is very good, but he isn't on Bret's level. It would be a great match but Bret wins.

 

[Super Crazy]

I'm going to go with Bret Hart here. I'm a huge Joe fan, but even I know Joe could not beat Bret. Bret is the Excellence of Execution, he is a technical wrestler, a very technical wrestler. Joe is more of an agile brawler with a submission finisher.

Hart has the edge in this match easily, because submissions matches are about the technical moves, keeping your opponent grounded and singling out the part of the body that your submission move would focus on. Hart was very good at this, where as like I said Joe is an agile brawler, which works well for his character and submission, as he'll wear you down, get you short winded, and then attempt to choke you out.

 

[Thriller Ant]

I'm going to need some convincing on this one. Bret is one of the best of all time, but Joe is a beast. I'm leaning toward Joe, not only because of how big and powerful he is, but also because Joe is a brawler and a Submission Match is no-DQ. I could easily see Joe beat the shit out of Hart with weapons and kicks before choking him out just as easily as I could see Joe tapping to the Sharpshooter. Like I said, I'm leaning toward Joe, but I can be convinced otherwise.

 

[Leafy]

Goldberg retired him because he was an inexperienced, unsafe worker. It was more the fact that Hart kept wrestling after Goldberg gave him the concussion and not the concussion itself.

So Hart's idiocy cost him his career. That's good. I'm glad the "most trained wrestler" doesn't know when he's injured. Maybe Joe can break his leg and he'll still try to wrestle.

How about UFC Hall of Famer Ken Shamrock. Is he good enough for you? Bret and the Hart Foundation had a nice little feud with him.

The same Shamrock who DQ's himself out of his own stupidity? Joe is smarter than Ken and his MMA background is one of his many attributes.

He had the title for a couple months, but that was a year before this Monster's Ball match you are speaking of took place. Raven at that point was not a main eventer. Even if he was it is still not nearly as impressive as defeating Chris Benoit and Sting in the same night. With both wins coming by submission.

So a year later and Raven becomes a useless fighter? He still faced the same Raven. He wasn't a main eventer because of the flow of new talent going into TNA at the time.

I don't care if Joe could cure cancer, he isn't going to beat Bret Hart. Bret is a wrestling legend. Samoa Joe is very good, but he isn't on Bret's level. It would be a great match but Bret wins.

Joe, I think, is a future legend. They didn't call him a legend during his prime. You can only respect a wrestler with the moniker of legend until after his prime. Just because he's retired doesn't add any more talent to his career or makes it better. Hart is a legend but Joe is better and the rules of this match let him beat Hart.

 

[Big Sexy]

So Hart's idiocy cost him his career. That's good. I'm glad the "most trained wrestler" doesn't know when he's injured. Maybe Joe can break his leg and he'll still try to wrestle.

Lol. It's not like he said "wow I have a severe concussion and I'm going to wrestle anyways." He didn't know at the time the severity of the injuries.

The same Shamrock who DQ's himself out of his own stupidity? Joe is smarter than Ken and his MMA background is one of his many attributes.

You said Hart had never faced anyone with mma experience like Joe and obviously he has faced someone with a ton more experience.

So a year later and Raven becomes a useless fighter? He still faced the same Raven. He wasn't a main eventer because of the flow of new talent going into TNA at the time.

First, I never said Raven was useless I just said he wasn't a main eventer at this point. And guys fall from the main event like that all the time. I'll give you the Great Khali as an example. He was the world champion in 2007 and then a year later he was doing the fucking kiss cam and losing matches to Dolph Ziggler.

Joe, I think, is a future legend. They didn't call him a legend during his prime. You can only respect a wrestler with the moniker of legend until after his prime. Just because he's retired doesn't add any more talent to his career or makes it better. Hart is a legend but Joe is better and the rules of this match let him beat Hart.

Joe is a ONE time world champion in a promotion that has always been #2 to the WWE and that one reign wasn't very impressive. Bret has beaten a number of guys that are better then Samoa Joe. There also isn't anything that Joe brings to the table that Hart hasn't seen before. Joe just isn't good enough to beat Bret.

 

[Tastycles]

Bret Hart, easily. Joe has wrestled in TNA, but I don't think he's made any of the top dogs there tap out. Hart has pretty much never given up, and he has beaten countless men bigger than him in a submission match, as well as having beaten multiple submission specialists. To suggest that because Samoa Joe has beaten a bunch of spot monkeys he is better is a fucking joke. Owen Hart, Sean Waltman and Brian Pillman pretty much introduced lucha libre to the USA and Hart beat them all, not that that is relevant at all.

Bret Has beaten wrestlers more powerful than himself, and that is all Joe has going into this match. Hart can soak up punishment like no other, and that is pretty much all Joe does. The number of moves Joe has is irrelevant becasue a) Hart probably had more and b) Hart made a career of turning other people's holds into sharpshooters.

 

[NWODXRULES]

I went with Bret Hart. He's beaten better power house wrestlers, technical wrestlers and high flyers than Samoa Joe. Owen Hart, Ric Flair, Steve Austin, Shawn Michaels, Chris Benoit, Undertaker, Kevin Nash, and Goldberg all come to mind. I have no doubt that Bret knows more submissions than Joe and could counter most submissions moves Joe would do. As others have mentioned Bret has never tapped out and I believe Joe tapped out to Angle's ankle lock. Honestly if Hart could beat Angle in a submission match there's no doubt he would beat Samoa Joe in a submission match.

 

[klunderbunker]

Can you picture Joe winning via submission? Neither can I.

There are few truths to wrestling, but one of them is this: if Stu Hart trained you, you could freaking wrestle. Now, how good do you think a son of Stu's is? This is BRET FREAKING HART. I mean think about it. Has he ever tapped? Joe has. Bret knows more ways to get the Sharpshooter on than anyone I've ever seen. Joe makes one mistake and he's done, period. Bret will make very few mistakes and will get the win here.

 

[Mr. TM]

Yes, that is Samoa Joe tapping out to an old, worn out Kurt Angle. The same Kurt Angle who has tapped six times before in a match against Chris Benoit. Bret Hart is leagues above Benoit, who is better than Angle, who in his weakened form, is better than Joe. Joe is only the submission machine when he is beating up guys no where close to Bret Hart's league.

 

[Supernova]

This is so obvious, anyone voting for Joe is either a massive fan of his or has over thought this match up way too much. Hart is the submissions master, whereas Joe is in name only. I can't remember the last time he beat a big name guy via submission. Hart has beaten some of the best by submission because he too is one of the all time greats. Joe is good but that's it. Hart via sharpshooter.

 

[gd]

Sure, I like Samoa Joe. He's one of the better parts of TNA and he's not even that fat anymore. He's had more than a few great matches throughout his career and has beaten some farily big names.

However, he's facing Bret Hart in a submission match. You here that? Bret Hart in a submission match. Hart is the favorite to win the gold in this event, and there's no way he's losing to Samoa Joe in a submission match. No chance.

 

[Spaceman Spif]

Leafy you made some good arguements, you did and you stood by them and for that I applaud you, that is very admirable. But as it has been said, it's Bret Hart is a submission match... the man is a living legend, one of the greatest technical wrestlers ever, a man who has never tapped out and a man who has made much larger and much better wrestlers than Joe submit with one move. Joe has a lot of moves, he does, but Hart only needs the one, the Sharpshooter and it's over. However don't let hism fool you, as KB said, the man was trained in the Dungeon by his dad, he knows a hell of a lot more submissions that he uses.

I'm sorry, Joe is great, but Bret Hart will anihilate him in this submission match.