PWF Answers Wrestling Questions | Page 16 | WrestleZone Forums

PWF Answers Wrestling Questions

That's bullshit. I asked some good questions concerning Kernodle. I've been following his work and I would really like to have a second opinion.

And Sheamus is a better worker as a babyface than as a heel, at least to me he's better in the ring selling for the guys and working the crowd to the comebacks, instead of being the one creating the shine spots and carrying the flow of a match. As a character I truly believe that he's better as an heel, but with some twitches in the babyface role instead of playing the generic Irish good guy and he would be great. My younger brother (12) and his friends have a facebook page to support the guy so his demographic loves the crap out of the Brogue Kick and his ginger crap.
 
The majority of fans don't think that way and thats why WWE is going to turn him heel. And most people don't even care for Sheamus's matches. Last week they were chanting "JBL/CM Punk" etc during his match same as the previous week.
You guys have become such big smarks that you have stopped being a fan and you watch the show as wannabe promoters/ critics. The majority of fans watch wrestling for fun.They don't give a shit who creates "shine spots". If they like the guy they cheer, they don't like the guy they will boo, doesn't matter whether he is supposed to be a heel or a face. Daniel Bryan/CM Punk/Antonio Cesaro are the perfect example.
 
ProWrestlingFan said:
The majority of fans don't think that way and thats why WWE is going to turn him heel. And most people don't even care for Sheamus's matches. Last week they were chanting "JBL/CM Punk" etc during his match same as the previous week.
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That's because the booking makes him go out in dead spots against guys they've all seen him work with plenty of times. Also a statement to Sheamus/Orton talents is that after they've chanted "JBL/Punk" they were into the match and that happens in ANY Orton match in the beginning, because he usually likes to go for the headlock that makes people go to sleep early in the bout, three minutes later, they are into it like it's a freaking addiction. That's pro wrestling 101. Make Sheamus go out there against Bray Wyatt, against Batista (heel) or against Brock Lesnar and you'll see if people will chant boring to it.

You guys have become such big smarks that you have stopped being a fan and you watch the show as wannabe promoters/ critics. The majority of fans watch wrestling for fun.They don't give a shit who creates "shine spots". If they like the guy they cheer, they don't like the guy they will boo, doesn't matter whether he is supposed to be a heel or a face. Daniel Bryan/CM Punk/Antonio Cesaro are the perfect example.
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Yes and in order to have fun you absolutely need the "shine spots". You absolutely need the comebacks, the false hope, the heat and everything else. Sheamus does great comebacks and you don't see people chanting JBL when he's clobbering the helluva out a guy and going for White Noise and all the other stuff he does. And that in bold is being a smark. If a guy tells me that he's going to kick the head out of another one that told the fans they suck, you better believe that the "mark" audience will cheer the crap out of it. Like I said, kids are really into Sheamus as much as they are into John Cena. He's playing his demographic to a pulp, or do you really believe that the "ginger cheesy jokes" are for you?
 
Silverback said:
That's because the booking makes him go out in dead spots against guys they've all seen him work with plenty of times. Also a statement to Sheamus/Orton talents is that after they've chanted "JBL/Punk" they were into the match and that happens in ANY Orton match in the beginning, because he usually likes to go for the headlock that makes people go to sleep early in the bout, three minutes later, they are into it like it's a freaking addiction. That's pro wrestling 101. Make Sheamus go out there against Bray Wyatt, against Batista (heel) or against Brock Lesnar and you'll see if people will chant boring to it.


Yes and in order to have fun you absolutely need the "shine spots". You absolutely need the comebacks, the false hope, the heat and everything else. Sheamus does great comebacks and you don't see people chanting JBL when he's clobbering the helluva out a guy and going for White Noise and all the other stuff he does. And that in bold is being a smark. If a guy tells me that he's going to kick the head out of another one that told the fans they suck, you better believe that the "mark" audience will cheer the crap out of it. Like I said, kids are really into Sheamus as much as they are into John Cena. He's playing his demographic to a pulp, or do you really believe that the "ginger cheesy jokes" are for you?
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Thats WWE style and it has been done so many times now that fans don't buy it half the time.
Cena/Orton created plenty of "shine spots" in their match at the Royal Rumble and what chants did they get? "This is Awful".
The only time Sheamus gets "reactions" is when he is wrestling on Smackdown and thats because Smackdown uses canned crowd cheers.
 
ProWrestlingFan said:
Thats WWE style and it has been done so many times now that fans don't buy it half the time.
Cena/Orton created plenty of "shine spots" in their match at the Royal Rumble and what chants did they get? "This is Awful".
The only time Sheamus gets "reactions" is when he is wrestling on Smackdown and thats because Smackdown uses canned crowd cheers.
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WWE Style? That's pro wrestling 101. The heel stomps the crap out of the babyface and the babyface does it's comeback. It doesn't matter if it's the WWE or New Japan or even Ring of Honor. That's basic stuff that you learn in a wrestling school.

We all know what created the chants and it was mostly a smark crowd. Also the match was very good. The only problem is that they've seen it way too many times.

What? Are you serious? I saw people buying a lot into Sheamus/Cesaro brawl. A fresh program makes a talented guy like Sheamus/Orton and Cena thrive. People are not sick of the guys, they are sick of the situations they've been put in and for Orton/Sheamus it's the same ol' matches with the same ol' opponents and outcomes to Cena is just stupid hate. Make Sheamus go after Brock Lesnar and kicking Heyman's head and then by all means, if people chant boring I'll give you all the reason in the world. You don't need to go that far, make him go after Roman Reigns in a Spear v. Brogue Kick, that will be something...
 
Silverback said:
WWE Style? That's pro wrestling 101. The heel stomps the crap out of the babyface and the babyface does it's comeback. It doesn't matter if it's the WWE or New Japan or even Ring of Honor. That's basic stuff that you learn in a wrestling school.

We all know what created the chants and it was mostly a smark crowd. Also the match was very good. The only problem is that they've seen it way too many times.

What? Are you serious? I saw people buying a lot into Sheamus/Cesaro brawl. A fresh program makes a talented guy like Sheamus/Orton and Cena thrive. People are not sick of the guys, they are sick of the situations they've been put in and for Orton/Sheamus it's the same ol' matches with the same ol' opponents and outcomes to Cena is just stupid hate. Make Sheamus go after Brock Lesnar and kicking Heyman's head and then by all means, if people chant boring I'll give you all the reason in the world. You don't need to go that far, make him go after Roman Reigns in a Spear v. Brogue Kick, that will be something...
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No That not Pro Wrestling 101, thats WWE 101. Watch any cruiserweight matches from WCW, any match from ROH. They wrestle a completely different style.

Also, these are examples of some of the best matches in wrestling history without that heel face dynamic:

Hogan vs Warrior - Wrestlemania 6 (Face vs Face)
Owen Hart vs. British Bulldog - Raw - 1997 (Heel vs. Heel)
Stone Cold vs The Rock at Wrestlemania 17 - (face vs face)
Kurt Angle vs. Undertaker -Now Way Out 2006 (Face vs. Face)
Shawn Michaels vs Undertaker (Wrestlemania 25) (face vs face)
HHH vs Undertaker (Wrestlemania 27,28) (face vs face)


And crowd reacts completely different these days. Taker Cesaro vs Cena from this week's RAW as an example. Cesaro was supposed to be the heel yet he was getting cheered like the babyface and Cena the babyface was getting booed like a heel.
 
BLADE said:
Chavo was a veteran with the Guerrero name value/sympathy. Plus I didn't indicate, in any way, that I thought he was a better choice so please try again.

A run as lackeys who were impossible to tell apart to the casual fan and supporting members BEHIND Chavo Guerrero, 6 years ago, and you think people will actually care about that?

If they are currently doing nothing, I say future endeavour them. It's the kindest thing to do rather than to pretend that their previous tag-team outing meant anything.
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Yeh, if you can go ahead and answer some follow up questions, that'd be great.
 
ProWrestlingFan said:
And no That not Pro Wrestling 101, thats WWE 101. Watch any cruiserweight matches from WCW, any match from ROH. They wrestle a completely different style.

Also, these are examples of some of the best matches in wrestling history without that heel face dynamic:

Hogan vs Warrior - Wrestlemania 6 (Face vs Face)
Owen Hart vs. British Bulldog - Raw - 1997 (Heel vs. Heel)
Stone Cold vs The Rock at Wrestlemania 17 - (face vs face)
Kurt Angle vs. Undertaker -Now Way Out 2006 (Face vs. Face)
Shawn Michaels vs Undertaker (Wrestlemania 25) (face vs face)
HHH vs Undertaker (Wrestlemania 27,28) (face vs face)


And crowd reacts completely different these days. Taker Cesaro vs Cena from this week's RAW as an example. Cesaro was supposed to be the heel yet he was getting cheered like the babyface and Cena the babyface was getting booed like a heel.
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As usual, you're wrong. The match needs the constructor of the match and 90% of the times it's the heel the guy that does it. For instance in the Hogan v. Warrior bout, Hogan was clearly working as a "heel" in order to make Warrior look strong and to shine him up for his comeback and finish.

For the Michaels v. Undertaker, Undertaker was working as the heel. Undertaker did his work to shine him up, Michaels gave his comeback and ended up losing, because babyfaces also lose matches. In the HHH v. Undertaker at WM28 Undertaker was working babyface and the year after that Undertaker was working heel for the match even though he was a babyface in character. In wrestling you always need, ALWAYS need a babyface and a heel to have a match, even if both characters work babyface or both heel, inside the squared circle one of them needs to make the others look good.

For instance, watch The Shield v. Wyatts dynamic this Sunday. The Wyatts will beat the living crap out of The Shield, but The Shield will get some momentum and start making it's comeback only to the hope spot be ruined by a turn or to simply put lose clean for The Wyatts. Both teams are wrestling villains, but one of those have to adjust.

Cena's crowd reaction is always like that. Always and it doesn't matter if he's working a classic bout or not. Most of the times he works as a babyface in a match, but for instance he worked heel against Daniel Bryan. Cena's comeback was generating heat and not creating the hope spot. Bryan's comeback tells it all as he was the babyface. It's really hart to put up a match where both of the guys have to make the other one look good in the exact same role and you're talking about stuff you don't know. And in ROH the dynamic is all the same, specially nowadays that is not a spot fest and more so of storytelling. New Japan is exactly the same even though they change that a lot, as Tanahashi can be working heel today and babyface tomorrow with no problem. Usually it depends on the opponent's ability to call a match and what not.

It's pro wrestling 101. Unless you're going to give me a stupid 15 second match, I can tell you by the end of it, who was working heel and who was working babyface. Another one - Hogan was working heel when he faced The Rock at WM18, even though the crowd was pro-Hogan and you can see it by the pace of the match that it was Hogan calling most shots. Rock carried him physically speaking, but the story told was all Hogan.

EDIT: Lucha doesn't follow it. But then again lucha libre doesn't have psychology to it's matches.
 
Silverback said:
As usual, you're wrong. The match needs the constructor of the match and 90% of the times it's the heel the guy that does it. For instance in the Hogan v. Warrior bout, Hogan was clearly working as a "heel" in order to make Warrior look strong and to shine him up for his comeback and finish.

For the Michaels v. Undertaker, Undertaker was working as the heel. Undertaker did his work to shine him up, Michaels gave his comeback and ended up losing, because babyfaces also lose matches. In the HHH v. Undertaker at WM28 Undertaker was working babyface and the year after that Undertaker was working heel for the match even though he was a babyface in character. In wrestling you always need, ALWAYS need a babyface and a heel to have a match, even if both characters work babyface or both heel, inside the squared circle one of them needs to make the others look good.

For instance, watch The Shield v. Wyatts dynamic this Sunday. The Wyatts will beat the living crap out of The Shield, but The Shield will get some momentum and start making it's comeback only to the hope spot be ruined by a turn or to simply put lose clean for The Wyatts. Both teams are wrestling villains, but one of those have to adjust.

Cena's crowd reaction is always like that. Always and it doesn't matter if he's working a classic bout or not. Most of the times he works as a babyface in a match, but for instance he worked heel against Daniel Bryan. Cena's comeback was generating heat and not creating the hope spot. Bryan's comeback tells it all as he was the babyface. It's really hart to put up a match where both of the guys have to make the other one look good in the exact same role and you're talking about stuff you don't know. And in ROH the dynamic is all the same, specially nowadays that is not a spot fest and more so of storytelling. New Japan is exactly the same even though they change that a lot, as Tanahashi can be working heel today and babyface tomorrow with no problem. Usually it depends on the opponent's ability to call a match and what not.

It's pro wrestling 101. Unless you're going to give me a stupid 15 second match, I can tell you by the end of it, who was working heel and who was working babyface. Another one - Hogan was working heel when he faced The Rock at WM18, even though the crowd was pro-Hogan and you can see it by the pace of the match that it was Hogan calling most shots. Rock carried him physically speaking, but the story told was all Hogan.
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You are completely dilusional and not worth debating with if you think Undertaker was working as a heel vs Shawn Michaels in any of their matches.

I am just going to ignore your replies in which you disagree for the sake of disagreeing.
 
I'm clearly separating character from in-ring psychology aren't I? I thought I made it clear in the Sheamus post. Sheamus is a better babyface wrestler, but a better heel character.
 
ProWrestlingFan said:
You are completely dilusional and not worth debating with if you think Undertaker was working as a heel vs Shawn Michaels in any of their matches.

I am just going to ignore your replies in which you disagree for the sake of disagreeing.
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Believe me, I know a lot more of creating a match than you. In both matches Undertaker was working "heel". He doesn't need to be inside the match and taunt the crowd to work "heel", he just needs to carry the other guy and set the pace of the match and shine him up for a comeback. For instance when Michaels jumped on Undertaker for the finish, it was CLEARLY Michaels doing the false hope spot for the finish. You're an idiot. Even when Undertaker was pretty much fighting HHH and Michaels inside the Cell, he was working heel. You are talking about stuff you don't know CLEARLY. In the end when he taunted HHH, that was generating heat. Babyfaces lose matches too so does heels. Character isn't the same as what a wrestler does inside the ring. For CM Punk v. Cena at MITB, Cena was the heel for the crowd but in the match he worked babyface while CM Punk carried the thing for him to barely get away.
 
ProWrestlingFan said:
To "Armchair booker" Silverback :
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Well the thing is - I trained and I know a lot of wrestlers personally. I don't know Cena and any big stars, but I know and I talk to some guys in the biz. Some people just don't want to pursue it, like myself. I don't take this stuff out of my ass. Do you think I would know what a shine spot is, or a hope spot or the dynamic of an heel/babyface just by listening to some shoots or what not? (that btw also exist - mainly the "Inside The Squared Circle with:") so that statement from Rogers is really old. Anyone can be a wrestler these days. Sign up for a school. Cardio and conditioning and then go learn how to work a proper match. In 6 months you'll be fine. Bumps, throwing punches, locks and what not are technical training, but it means zero if you can't put it in a story and be ready to do all the spots. You learn that in an indy school, so the dynamic isn't WWE style. WWE style focus a lot more on selling and having 3 to 6 minute matches while other styles are for longer matches usually ence why WWE doesn't like guys that come out with an indy background. It's not easy to adapt.
 
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