Peyton Manning: Best Ever?

[klunderbunker]

On Sportsnation, Colin Cowherd just said that he thinks Manning is the greatest quarterback of all time. While I immediately thought no way, the more I think about it the more I think he might be on to something. Let's see. Manning is going to likely go down with most if not all of the major passing records. He's got a title already, and i defy you to find a QB that looks as solid in the pocket as he does. How many times has he marched his team down the field with absolute ease? He stands there and just picks apart every defense he has. I know I'll get the standard stupid line of "it's the weapons he has." Ok, that's just stupid. It takes a great QB to put those passes in the right place for those receivers to make the catches.

So what do you think? Can Manning be put in the top level of QBs, up there with Marino, Montana and Elway, or is he just not that good?

 

[stingerlegends]

I have to admit I thought Manning would bust and Leaf would be awesome.

Worst prediction I ever made. Boy, I HATED Manning.

But you have to look at the numbers.

He could easily surpass all of Favre (formerly Marino's) career records, including the consecutive games streak.

Marvin Harrison blossomed with Manning around, not the other way around, and even when Edgerrin left, his numbers didn't drop, and Addai and Rhodes are only okay replacements. Hell, you could argue that Edge was better because of Manning since he's been crap without him, but that's an apples/oranges opinion I think.

Manning also has the best SINGLE season ever, stats-wise. He could probably have even had 50 TD's before Brady if it wasn't for the fact that he is cool with sitting out the last quarter of blowouts.

Nobody has had a stretch run like Peyton. Marino, Elway, even Montana have had a season within an 8 year stretch where they were kinda meh.

The game has changed from their time, but not enough. Manning will go down as the best. PERIOD.

(Plus the guy has the most hilarious commercials out of all of them, but I won't count in my argument, just thought I'd throw it in)

 

[Baller]

Peyton Manning is the greatest quarterback ever. He is better then all of them including Marino, Montana, and Elway. He is the best game manager and even when he gets under 15 minutes of possession, he finds a way to put up 27 points. I have never seen a quarterback make so many audibles at the line and confuse defenses like he can. If he didnt have the ring I would think other, but he is the best with a ring

 

[People's Champ]

I think he can. I agree that the weapons argument is just dumb. He has that gift of being able to see the field and just make the right decision. He makes the calls on the field himself. He reads defenses and is able to pick the right play. He can can drive his team within a minute to score a TD. He just is that good. I think when its all said and done he will be one of those top QBs of all time. There are not too many like him.

 

[X]

The argument can be made right now that Peyton is the best to ever play the game, though I wouldn't agree with that. But I'll guarantee that by the time Brady's career is over, he'll have surpassed Manning as the greatest quarterback to ever live. He's already well on his way, shattering records left and right. Manning has played for four more seasons than Brady has, and with a hell of a lot more talent around him for most of that time. I'll all but guarantee that Brady will go down as the greatest QB of all time.

For right now though, Manning is arguable.

 

[stingerlegends]

The argument can be made right now that Peyton is the best to ever play the game, though I wouldn't agree with that. But I'll guarantee that by the time Brady's career is over, he'll have surpassed Manning as the greatest quarterback to ever live. He's already well on his way, shattering records left and right. Manning has played for four more seasons than Brady has, and with a hell of a lot more talent around him for most of that time. I'll all but guarantee that Brady will go down as the greatest QB of all time.

For right now though, Manning is arguable.

I'd make the argument that Brady plays for a brilliant coach (not that Dungy was bad), and his numbers are NOT that impressive compared to Manning. His Super Bowl wins were made with FG's not TD's, and his numbers were elevated by Moss and Welker, while Manning elevated the numbers of Harrison and now Wayne.

 

[X]

I'd make the argument that Brady plays for a brilliant coach (not that Dungy was bad), and his numbers are NOT that impressive compared to Manning.

Yeah, actually, they kind of are. Brady has the highest winning percentage of any QB in NFL history (that includes Manning). Brady is the first QB to ever throw 200 TD passes with less than 100 interceptions. He owns the single season records for TD passes and the largest differential between TD to interceptions, has led his team to undefeated regular seasons on his back, he also owns the record for highest completion percentage in a single game (92.9%). Brady hasn't been playing for as long as Manning has (by about 4 and a half seasons), so really they're actually extremely comparable in terms of where they are in their respective careers.

His Super Bowl wins were made with FG's not TD's

Except for the one he won in 2004. And yeah, he was the MVP of 2 of his 3 Super Bowl wins. Manning has one trophy, and that was against a team that didn't stand a chance in hell.

and his numbers were elevated by Moss and Welker

That's what happens when you finally have talented receivers. You do better.

while Manning elevated the numbers of Harrison and now Wayne.

Bullshit, Harrison and Wayne are the ones elevating Manning's numbers, not the other way around. You think Manning would still be putting up the stats he has for the last decade if instead of HOFer Marvin Harrison he had Deion Branch as his "ace" receiver instead? Hell no he wouldn't.

Give Brady a few years and he'll be the best of all time I think.

 

[CMCoke42381]

Why is Marino but not Favre being mentioned as the very best and elite here? But...I have no answer for this as of now. He COULD ended up being the GOAT but I think we need to wait another 6 or 7 seasons when possibly both his and Brady's careers are over. I say if Manning gets 3 more rings and Brady gets only 1 more then yes he will be the GOAT.

 

[stingerlegends]

xfearbefore,

I have to say that Kurt Warner broke the comp% record just last week, and Manning would have had a hell of a worse time against the Bears if they had Mike Brown and Tommie Harris, plus Urlacher and Briggs were playing hurt, but it wasn't an easy win.

I am not trying to say that Brady is bad, far from it, but just because you win Super Bowls, well, that doesn't mean everything. And how do the Patriots make it to the Super Bowl so many times if they don't have good surrounding players? That's bull.
Terry Bradshaw isn't the best QB of all time just because he has 4 Super Bowl wins, so why is Brady thrown into that? The guy BLEW a perfect season, the worst meltdown ever.

 

[X]

xfearbefore,

I have to say that Kurt Warner broke the comp% record just last week

No, actually, he didn't. Warner was 24 of 26, which is a completion percentage of 92.3%, while Brady was 26 of 28, which is a completion percentage of 92.9%.

and Manning would have had a hell of a worse time against the Bears if they had Mike Brown and Tommie Harris, plus Urlacher and Briggs were playing hurt, but it wasn't an easy win.

The 2005-06 Bears were not nearly as good of a team as the teams that the Patriots beat in their Super Bowls, especially the 2001-02 Rams, which was one of the most talented teams in NFL history.

I am not trying to say that Brady is bad, far from it, but just because you win Super Bowls, well, that doesn't mean everything.

I know. But it helps. So does shattering several offensive records and breaking every single regular and postseason consecutive wins record.

And how do the Patriots make it to the Super Bowl so many times if they don't have good surrounding players? That's bull.

Never said they didn't have talent, but they didn't have much. We had a great, great defense, but our offense had Brady, and that was about it. We had a good line, and Deion Branch. That was about it. Corey Dillon came along eventually but he was well past his prime. Brady was the one who was chiefly responsible for those Super Bowl rings, and I don't see how anyone could argue any differently.

Terry Bradshaw isn't the best QB of all time just because he has 4 Super Bowl wins, so why is Brady thrown into that? The guy BLEW a perfect season, the worst meltdown ever.

LOL, he "blew" a perfect season? Are you kidding? He didn't blow anything, the Giants won by 3 fucking points from a miraculous drive from Eli Manning. They did not lose because of Brady, wasn't his fault at all, it was the defense's fault if anyone's.

 

[jmt225]

Statistically, Peyton Manning will most definitely go down as the greatest quarterback to have ever lived. I mean, his numbers when it's all said and done will be simply astonishing. And I believe this man will play for another good 10 years, if not longer. He's a machine, who knows how to get rid of the ball and not get hit. He hasn't been injured once since coming to the NFL, and he's been one of the most consistent quarterbacks year in and year out, at least in the regular season.

However, my gripe and everyone else's will always be his performances in the playoffs. Sure, he has that one Super Bowl ring now, but really... look how he got it. He beat Patriots where they just played like absolute shit, and then went on to beat a mediocre team in the Chicago Bears. And it's not like Peyton was really impressive in those games, either. Sure, he did enough to win, but his performances come nowhere near matching the greats of the past in big time games, like John Elway, Joe Montana, Troy Aikman, Terry Bradshaw, etc.

So, with that said... right now, he's not the best ever because of that above paragraph, in my opinion. However, like I said... I think he has plenty more years in this league, and somewhere down the line there's no telling just what this dude will show us in the post season. I'm certainly looking forward it, and not to be corny... but I have to admit it's been an honor to watch this guy's career from start to finish. Since his days at Tennessee, I followed this dude and it's real a privilege to follow a great from the very start. As the younger generation we missed out on Joe Montana from the beginning, Dan Marino, Walter Peyton, etc... but we do have Peyton Manning.

 

[stingerlegends]

Well, I guess I don't know what game that was, because every article I find has Warner breaking the record which was held by Vinny Testaverde form the Browns in 1993.

Manning per game: 22 com 34 att 260 yds 1.89 TD .93 INT 95.1 QB rating
Brady per game: 21 com 33 att 235 yds 1.72 TD .75 INT 92.4 QB rating

Manning a little better in regular season play.
Plus if you take away his rookie season (1-15) and 28 picks, he stacks even better. Have to get back at you for the win-loss

 

[X]

Well, I guess I don't know what game that was, because every article I find has Warner breaking the record which was held by Vinny Testaverde form the Browns in 1993.

You're reading the articles wrong then. Warner broke the regular season completion percentage record, which doesn't include postseason games. The record that Brady made in the 2007 playoffs against the Jaguars is the highest completion percentage of any NFL game, postseason and regular season. But, since it took place in the postseason, it doesn't count as a regular season game obviously. So Warner holds the regular season record, and Brady owns the record for any game, regular or postseason.

Manning per game: 22 com 34 att 260 yds 1.89 TD .93 INT 95.1 QB rating
Brady per game: 21 com 33 att 235 yds 1.72 TD .75 INT 92.4 QB rating

...Those numbers are nearly identical. How can you argue that Brady isn't even close to Manning when you've just proven they play at almost the exact same level?

 

[BooCocky]

You know, people criticize Mannings playoff performances but he never had a credible defense until he won in 06. He'd have to score every possession and put up forty just to win. Manning is obviously the smartest QB to ever play the game. He is practically his own coordinator. Not many players can say that.

His numbers are great, but I still say Joe Montana is the greatest ever. 4 rings, several SB MVP's, pretty high in practically every passing statistic and I think he was better under pressure. Manning is the greatest QB I have ever seen, but not the best ever...

 

[jmt225]

His numbers are great, but I still say Joe Montana is the greatest ever. 4 rings, several SB MVP's, pretty high in practically every passing statistic and I think he was better under pressure. Manning is the greatest QB I have ever seen, but not the best ever...

And people talk about Tom Brady having talent around him. Jesus Christ... what didn't Montana have? He had the greatest Wide Receiver to ever play the game, a couple of other great receivers, a tremendous tight-end, great running back, great head coach, and good defenses.

Joe Montana has to be the most overrated quarterback in the history of the game, for so many to tout he's the greatest ever. He's not. The guy played with unbelievably great teams, and when he went to a mediocre team in Kansas City, he couldn't make anything happen for them. You put Dan Marino with those San Francisco teams, and he does just as much, if not more, than Montana did.

Don't get me wrong, Montana was a great quarterback, but nowhere near the greatest, IMO.

 

[Shocky]

Statistcally yes, but the greatest ever, hell no. Peyton Mannings post season record is abysmal, and I'd argue that Manning might not be the best of this generation, maybe not even the 2nd best. As much as it pains me to say it, Tom Brady has three rings, and Big Ben has two, all while Peyton Manning is the god of the regular season.

Manning has gone to 9 playoffs, and has been eliminated in Game 1 of 6 of those. Elite quarterbacks that lead their teams to Home Field advantage throughout the playoffs don't lose games like that. Overall, he's 7-8 in the playoffs, with one superbowl. While good, if not great stats, it's certainly doesn't qualify him to be the best ever.

You have to look at the total package. Manning is essentially the Alex Rodrigez of Pro Football, but there is a reason they call A-Fraud Mr. August instead of Mr. October.

 

[stingerlegends]

I found the game, yeah you were right, my apologies.

But I didn't say that Brady wasn't even close. I said Manning was a little better.

And c'mon the Bears had a great defense and you say the Panthers or the Eagles were better? AFC regardless was picked to win big in all those games.

 

[BooCocky]

Brady was never asked to win games Peyton was. Brady usually had a good veteran defense. Peyton had a defense that couldn't stop the run, and if they could, then they couldn't stop the pass. I say if you give Peyton those Patriots teams he does just as good. Tom Brady pretty much won one superbowl with his arm. He played well enough to win but having a good defense always helped him except in 04 I believe.

I still say Peyton is the best I've seen.

To Be perfectly honest, I could care less and I'm not going to reply if anyone quotes me..

 

[X]

I found the game, yeah you were right, my apologies.

Simple mistake, no problem man.

But I didn't say that Brady wasn't even close. I said Manning was a little better.

Well you said his numbers weren't that impressive compared to Manning, but clearly they are.

And c'mon the Bears had a great defense and you say the Panthers or the Eagles were better? AFC regardless was picked to win big in all those games.

Actually the Rams were picked by virtually everyone to beat the Pats in 2002. The Pats winning that game is one of the biggest upsets in Super Bowl history.

 

[stingerlegends]

Wish I knew how to put blocks around the quotes rather than quoting the whole thing.

If you take out Brady's perfect year and Manning's (at the time) record TD season,
Manning has 8 4000 yd seasons, 3 30 TD seasons, and 3 100+ QB rating seasons.
Brady has a 4000 yd season.
Manning just has more quality to his seasons. Brady has done better in the playoffs, no doubt, but it's like saying Emmitt is better than Walter, or Bruce was better than Reggie. There's no quantifiable stat that says who is the best ever.

And even though Manning has more years under his belt, he is only 1 year older, so at the end of the career Manning will outshine Brady. Just my feelings. I respect your argument though, xfearbefore. It's a great debate.

 

[Big Sexy]

And people talk about Tom Brady having talent around him. Jesus Christ... what didn't Montana have? He had the greatest Wide Receiver to ever play the game, a couple of other great receivers, a tremendous tight-end, great running back, great head coach, and good defenses.

Joe Montana has to be the most overrated quarterback in the history of the game, for so many to tout he's the greatest ever. He's not. The guy played with unbelievably great teams, and when he went to a mediocre team in Kansas City, he couldn't make anything happen for them. You put Dan Marino with those San Francisco teams, and he does just as much, if not more, than Montana did.

Don't get me wrong, Montana was a great quarterback, but nowhere near the greatest, IMO.

Montana didn't have any more talent then the other great quarterbacks that are talked about. You talk about him having Jerry Rice, but Montana had already won 2 Super Bowls before Rice was even drafted. His top receivers for those Super Bowls were Dwight Clark and Freddie Solomon. Clark went over 1,000 yards receiving only once in his career and Solomon never went over 1,000 yards receiving. They were solid receivers, but far from great.

As far as the running game goes it really wasn't that great Montana's first few years in the league. When the Niners won their first Super Bowl the leading rusher on the team only had 543 yards. It wasn't until 1983 that Roger Craig joined the team.

With the defense, yes it was always good but it was never a dominant defense. They weren't the 85' Bears or 2001 Ravens. So Montana had very good teams around him, but don't act like he had tons more talent then guys like Marino because he didn't.

 

[lunchbox7337]

"Bullshit, Harrison and Wayne are the ones elevating Manning's numbers, not the other way around. You think Manning would still be putting up the stats he has for the last decade if instead of HOFer Marvin Harrison he had Deion Branch as his "ace" receiver instead? Hell no he wouldn't."

lol isn't it just a little ironic that Peyton has put up the SAME numbers, regardless of who's been his recievers? Even with Marvin Harrison being god-awful the last 2 years, Peyton still managed to put up his usual numbers. And he's gotten 2 new recievers to play extremely well this year (Garcon and Collie).

And isn't it also ironic that as soon as percieved great players leave Indy, they get worse? (Marcus Pollard, Brandon Stokley, Edgerrin James, etc.)

So in other words...Manning has made Harrison and Wayne who they are, not the other way around.

 

[KillBill]

If your going by stats, doesnt that make Brett Favre the best ever? To be the man, you gotta beat the man, so until Manning surpasses Favre, guess he ain't the best.

Don't say Manning made all these guys. Harrison and James haven't doner anything since he left? I wonder why? Because James is in his 30's when rb tend to break down, and he went to AZ where they cant run for shit. And Harrison? He's older, and he is in trouble with the Law.

Manning had the talent around him to put up those numbers. The 1st chance brady had with GREAT recievers, he broke Mannings record. Brady won SB with good, but not great players. That year they lost to the Colts in the Playoffs, he won 12 games with Reche fucking Caldwell as his leading reciever. Brady won a SB with Troy Brown, who I love but isnt great, as his leading reciever and Antwan Smith as his RB. Please. Brady has done more with less talent than Manning has with more talent.

And don't start with the, "oh, but they only won their superbowls by 3 points". The SB is about the 2 BEST teams, its not supposed to be blowouts. The Rams and Eagles were GREAT those years, and the Panthers were damn good. All much better than those Bears.

But i guess it all depends what you go by. If you go by stats, Manning will be the greatest, if you go by championships, then Brady is better.

And if you ask Manning which one he'd rather have, what do you think he'd say?

 

[X]

If your going by stats, doesnt that make Brett Favre the best ever? To be the man, you gotta beat the man, so until Manning surpasses Favre, guess he ain't the best.

I suppose technically, but longevity has obviously played a huge factor in his place in the record books. The man just isn't human, he never stops playing football. But even at his best, I don't think Brett Favre was as good as Manning or Brady. So I can't rightfully consider him the greatest QB of all time.

Don't say Manning made all these guys. Harrison and James haven't doner anything since he left? I wonder why? Because James is in his 30's when rb tend to break down, and he went to AZ where they cant run for shit. And Harrison? He's older, and he is in trouble with the Law.

Manning had the talent around him to put up those numbers. The 1st chance brady had with GREAT recievers, he broke Mannings record. Brady won SB with good, but not great players. That year they lost to the Colts in the Playoffs, he won 12 games with Reche fucking Caldwell as his leading reciever. Brady won a SB with Troy Brown, who I love but isnt great, as his leading reciever and Antwan Smith as his RB. Please. Brady has done more with less talent than Manning has with more talent.

And don't start with the, "oh, but they only won their superbowls by 3 points". The SB is about the 2 BEST teams, its not supposed to be blowouts. The Rams and Eagles were GREAT those years, and the Panthers were damn good. All much better than those Bears.

But i guess it all depends what you go by. If you go by stats, Manning will be the greatest, if you go by championships, then Brady is better.

And if you ask Manning which one he'd rather have, what do you think he'd say?

I could not agree more with the rest of your post. Every thing you've just said is true, and I've been saying it for awhile now. The Brady hate is ridiculous, I'm sorry, but Brady is better than Manning. The only thing Manning is better at is avoiding career-threatening injuries.

 

[stingerlegends]

If your going by stats, doesnt that make Brett Favre the best ever? To be the man, you gotta beat the man, so until Manning surpasses Favre, guess he ain't the best.

Don't say Manning made all these guys. Harrison and James haven't doner anything since he left? I wonder why? Because James is in his 30's when rb tend to break down, and he went to AZ where they cant run for shit. And Harrison? He's older, and he is in trouble with the Law.

Manning had the talent around him to put up those numbers. The 1st chance brady had with GREAT recievers, he broke Mannings record. Brady won SB with good, but not great players. That year they lost to the Colts in the Playoffs, he won 12 games with Reche fucking Caldwell as his leading reciever. Brady won a SB with Troy Brown, who I love but isnt great, as his leading reciever and Antwan Smith as his RB. Please. Brady has done more with less talent than Manning has with more talent.

And don't start with the, "oh, but they only won their superbowls by 3 points". The SB is about the 2 BEST teams, its not supposed to be blowouts. The Rams and Eagles were GREAT those years, and the Panthers were damn good. All much better than those Bears.

But i guess it all depends what you go by. If you go by stats, Manning will be the greatest, if you go by championships, then Brady is better.

And if you ask Manning which one he'd rather have, what do you think he'd say?

Xfear and I have already had our battle between Brady and Manning, I just want to make sure YOU are fair with the truth though.

Yeah, the Rams were the team that the Patriots shouldn't have beat, 1st in scoring, and 7th pts allowed. Pats were 6th in scoring and 6th in pts allowed.

Versus Panthers , Panthers were 15th in scoring and 10th in points allowed, and you think they had a good team? That's barely over average. Pats were 12th in scoring but 1st in pts allowed.

vs Eagles. Eagles were 8th in scoring and 2nd in pts allowed, so they were good, too. Pats were 4th in scoring and 2nd in pts allowed, tied with the Eagles.

So the Pats had better numbers than two of three.

And the Patriots have had great talent, this whole "Pats rode Brady to the Bowl" is bull. The had "no talent"? Bull. 5 Pro Bowlers in 2001, 3 in 2003 (all defense) of which 2 were all-pro, and 1 other guy was all-pro but didn't go to Hawaii. 6 Pro Bowlers in 2004. They had plenty of help, it wasn't just Brady the Golden Boy, as so many Patriot fans would like for us all to believe.


Colts in 2006 2nd in scoring 23rd in pts allowed. That's shitty defense, going against the Bears, who were 2nd in scoring as well, plus 3rd in pts allowed? I would say averaged out, the Bears were better than those other three teams (although I would objectively state that the Rams were probably better)

I also want to point out that you don't need a top-flight receiver or two to win big. So what if Manning has Harrison, who wasn't top-flight until Manning arrived, Brady thrived under a scheme that had him throwing to six different guys. It ain't WHO, it's HOW. And NO WAY that Brady is even mentioned here without Adam Vinatieri (my South Dakota boy) and his heroics. Otherwise everyone would just be lumping him with Tony Romo. Fact.