Owen Hart or Chris Benoit?

[Joeezy^^]

So the other day, my friend was going on and on about Chris Benoit and how he sould be in the hall of fame. I shut him up by saying Owen (Hart) comes first. So who do you think should be inducted first Owen or Benoit?

P.S: Sorry if this has been done before.

 

[¡Roján!]

Umaga

 

[Remix]

Owen because he wasn't a murderer. If Benoit hadn't killed his wife and kid he'd be way further up the list than Owen.

 

[Murphy]

Based purley on their wrestling careers Benoit. But I think it is very unlikey that he will be inducted because..... well we all know why. Owen Hart had a lot of potential but was stuck with a stupid gimmick when he died, thanks to Vince Russo and should also be inducted into the HoF. But I feel like Benoit should be inducted first because I think what he was like, or has done outside the ring should not matter. Of course there would be outrage if he was inducted so I understand why the WWE wouldn't.

 

[mr.ready]

Owen because he wasn't a murderer. If Benoit hadn't killed his wife and kid he'd be way further up the list than Owen.

You should read MVP's little diatribe about Chris Beniot. I know its hard to forget what he did, but try to remember the type of person he was before that.

I'll say Owen Hart though, more entertaining.

 

[Kermit]

Chris Benoit will never get in the Hall of Fame. Owen Hart is just a matter of time.

 

[The Dewbliners]

Clearly, the answer is Owen, for reasons already mentioned concerning murder and suicide. Also, if the child killer gets in before Pillman, I riot.

 

[Slyfox696]

Benoit.

Because he wasn't an overrated midcarder whose sole claim to wrestling fame was dying. Notice I said SOLE claim.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Benoit.

Because he wasn't an overrated midcarder whose sole claim to wrestling fame was dying. Notice I said SOLE claim.

It wasnt though, put on one of the best WM matches in history, along with one of the best cage matches in history.

but the rest of it is right yea. Benoit all the way.

 

[Slyfox696]

It wasnt though, put on one of the best WM matches in history, along with one of the best cage matches in history.

Perhaps, but that's "tainted" by the fact it was his own brother both times, a guy who made numerous guys look good throughout their careers.


And I'm not even sure I'd call two matches which happened over 15 years ago worthy of "fame". Too many of today's fans have no idea those matches exist.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Its always a sound argument.

"I mean...the matches WERE with Bret Hart..."

 

[hatehabsforever]

Personally, I don't think either of these guys deserves to be in the WWE Hall of Fame.

 

[Slyfox696]

Personally, I don't think either of these guys deserves to be in the WWE Hall of Fame.

I fail to see how Chris Benoit doesn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. This is a pro wrestling Hall of Fame. If we were going to keep people out based upon some type of morality clauses, we wouldn't have any entrants into the Hall of Fame. Hogan, Flair, HBK? See ya. Snuka? Don't let the door hit ya, where the good Lord split ya. Steve Austin? Debra says hello.

And we can keep going on.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Since Jimmy Snookems is a straight up murder too. At least its been proven that Benoit was severely mentally ill when he did it

 

[hatehabsforever]

I fail to see how Chris Benoit doesn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. This is a pro wrestling Hall of Fame. If we were going to keep people out based upon some type of morality clauses, we wouldn't have any entrants into the Hall of Fame. Hogan, Flair, HBK? See ya. Snuka? Don't let the door hit ya, where the good Lord split ya. Steve Austin? Debra says hello.

And we can keep going on.

Don't be trolling now, that's against the rules on these forums

In the Hall of Fame of any sport or any organization, character becomes an issue. Needless to say, Benoit's actions leave him a little bit on the short end of the stick here. "Morality clauses" is a gross understatement, and you know it. Last time I checked, the other people you listed didn't murder any women or children, regardless of the justifications his fans use to explain why he did it.

If Benoit was already in the Hall, I wouldn't kick him out, but there's no way in hell he should ever go in, or ever will. And I say this from the perspective of a Canadian professional wrestling fan who was a huge Benoit fan who was shocked and devastated by what he did.

Optics still count, and there is no way that a company in the public eye to the extent of WWE can honor a guy who did what he did, regardless of his in ring career and accomplishments.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Morality clauses is the biggest copout ever in all Halls of Fame. Ty Cobb was a racist. Didn't see him not got elected.

Only thing I care about is how you performed in the court, field, or ring and how great you were at it.

 

[Slyfox696]

In the Hall of Fame of any sport or any organization, character becomes an issue.

In pro wrestling, that's simply laughable.

Needless to say, Benoit's actions leave him a little bit on the short end of the stick here. "Morality clauses" is a gross understatement, and you know it. Last time I checked, the other people you listed didn't murder any women or children, regardless of the justifications his fans use to explain why he did it.

I suggest you do a little digging into Jimmy Snuka.

If Benoit was already in the Hall, I wouldn't kick him out, but there's no way in hell he should ever go in, or ever will.

Why? Because the years he made money for Vince McMahon and entertained the fans caused significant brain damage which led to actions everyone who knew him said was completely out of character?

Optics still count, and there is no way that a company in the public eye to the extent of WWE can honor a guy who did what he did, regardless of his in ring career and accomplishments.

And yet, there Jimmy Snuka sits...


I agree with you in that Benoit simply cannot go in sometime in the near future. Ten years from now, when mainstream media won't give a damn and the sting has gone out of what he did, Benoit will be in. As well he should be.



EDIT: I also want to point out the irony that when sane and rational soldiers kill people, including women and children, their labeled as heroes. When a man suffering from extreme mental decay and brain damage does it, he's an evil person. And for the record, no that's not an insult to military personnel.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

thats what is shit. Austin whipped the hell outta Debra because he is a fucking jerk. Ric Flair is a world class piece of shit, knowingly. Snuka commited murder in cold blood.

Chris Benoits brain was the same as an 85 year old with advanced dimensia. But HE is the one who doesnt get in because of morality? Really?

 

[Remix]

Benoit will be kept out (for the time being at least) if for no other reason than to avoid any potential backlash from the media. You could also make a case for how bad his death affected the public perception of wrestling.

I know Snuka also (allegedly) killed his wife but the case was never as widly distributed and the HOF ceremony was a far smaller occasion so they could "get away with it". It's not a morality clause it's a "We don't want to get in trouble with the press" clause.

 

[hatehabsforever]

In pro wrestling, that's simply laughable.

That may be laughable, it doesn't mean it isn't true. Can you imagine the fallout, rightly or wrongly, of a publicly traded company as much in the public eye as WWE, inducting a known double murderer into their Hall of Fame? Regardless of the supposed reasons for it, which I sympathize with Benoit for, he still did what he did, and there's no getting beyond this. It would appear that the WWE brass seem to agree, at least up till now, as uttering the name Benoit in WWE circles is comparable to Voldemort in Harry Potter films.

I suggest you do a little digging into Jimmy Snuka.

I assume you are talking about the unproven allegations against Snuka? And I don't recall saying that I think he should be there either.

Why? Because the years he made money for Vince McMahon and entertained the fans caused significant brain damage which led to actions everyone who knew him said was completely out of character?

All irrelevant. I don't care how much money he made, how much entertainment he produced, or how out of character his actions were, none of which I would contest. He did what he did, end of story. Hypothetically, if John Cena murdered a woman and a child tomorrow, then committed suicide, I would say the same thing about him, and he may have made a few bucks for Vince and entertained a few people along the way. And I would feel this way regardless of any post mortem analysis of his brain tissue, or why is was that way.

I agree with you in that Benoit simply cannot go in sometime in the near future. Ten years from now, when mainstream media won't give a damn and the sting has gone out of what he did, Benoit will be in. As well he should be.

Mainstream media will still care, and I'm not sure the sting will ever be gone. If the sting starts to subside, the media just needs to show a picture of his wife and (allegedly) handicapped son, as well as an in-character photo of Benoit in the ring as a "rabid wolverine", and the sting is back.

Hypothetically, if the acquitted OJ Simpson weren't already in the Hall of Fame, how do you think people would feel if nowadays, over a decade after the death of this ex-wife and her friend, people wanted to see him inducted? How would the sting of that feel?

I find it an interesting choice of words, ironically, in a thread talking about guys potentially not deserving of the Hall of Fame, using the word sting

EDIT: I also want to point out the irony that when sane and rational soldiers kill people, including women and children, their labeled as heroes. When a man suffering from extreme mental decay and brain damage does it, he's an evil person. And for the record, no that's not an insult to military personnel.

Benoit was no war hero. I'm not saying he was an evil person either, I'm saying he did an evil act, and that should and will be reason enough to permanently exclude him.

 

[Slyfox696]

That may be laughable, it doesn't mean it isn't true.

Sure it does. To say there's a character issue to get into the WWE Hall of Fame is just silly. Look at the list of druggies, wife beaters, homosexuals (that's a character flaw in some people's eyes, though not mine), pill poppers, murderer, bad fathers, etc. that are in the WWE Hall of Fame.

Can you imagine the fallout, rightly or wrongly, of a publicly traded company as much in the public eye as WWE, inducting a known double murderer into their Hall of Fame?

Which is why Benoit is not in. Doesn't change the fact he SHOULD be in.

I assume you are talking about the unproven allegations against Snuka? And I don't recall saying that I think he should be there either.

But Snuka is. Which obviously means killing a woman doesn't prohibit you from getting into the WWE Hall of Fame. And since you said "the other people you listed didn't murder any women or children" that would kind of make you wrong, would it not?

All irrelevant.

No, it's very much relevant. What it says is that the man who was a Hall of Famer was not the same man who killed his wife and child.

Mainstream media will still care

No they won't. As soon as they cannot make money off of it, they won't care. Pro wrestling isn't a big enough entity to make money off of something that happened 15 years previous.

Hypothetically, if the acquitted OJ Simpson weren't already in the Hall of Fame, how do you think people would feel if nowadays, over a decade after the death of this ex-wife and her friend, people wanted to see him inducted? How would the sting of that feel?

OJ played in the NFL, something a LOT more people care about than wrestling. OJ Simpson also acted in the popular Naked Gun movies. OJ Simpson was a name a very high percentage of people knew.

Chris Benoit is a name that most non-wrestling fans would say, "hmm...seems like I've heard that name somewhere before....".

Completely different situations.

Benoit was no war hero. I'm not saying he was an evil person either, I'm saying he did an evil act, and that should and will be reason enough to permanently exclude him.

I never said Benoit was a war hero. What I said is that so often we arbitrarily assign morality based upon how it relates to our ability to make ourselves feel good about ourselves. The soldiers who kill are heroes, the mentally damaged man who kills is evil, according to many people.

 

[shattered dreams]

The thing about arguing Benoit was demented at that point, true as it may be, is that doesn't excuse how he ended up getting there in the first place or what he did. I suppose you could twist it so that it was his commitment to prowrestling that got himself in that condition but that would be one hell of a sugar coating of the truth. Concussions played a role but he was a heavy PED abuser. Benoit isn't a slam dunk for the hall of fame anyway. He probably deserves it but he isn't a big enough name to merit it under the circumstances. If Jeff Hardy killed his family tomorrow because his mind was shot I doubt people would be sympathetic to his cause. I think it is convenient to separate Benoit the deranged murderer from Benoit the wrestler but the fact is that it wasn't or isn't that simple. It wasn't just a flip the switch moment. I do not see how you honor someones career when their career directly lead to something this terrible.

Owen probably doesn't deserve it but with more time he easily could have had a Benoit caliber career. We will never know. Putting Owen in is more about a fitting tribute to something that actually deserves it. Sometimes honors are not only about "credentials." I'd much rather see Owen in a HOF than Benoit.

 

[Sully]

Owen because he wasn't a murderer. If Benoit hadn't killed his wife and kid he'd be way further up the list than Owen.

Honestly I don't think that has anything to do with it.

Plus, this is such a silly question. You're basing it on people who have died...the hall of fame should be who deserves to be in it based on what they did in their CAREERS, not their life or how their life ended.

If I had to choose though, I personally feel Benoit accomplished a lot more, and was better in the ring, but Owen Hart will get in before he does knowing the WWE.

 

[hatehabsforever]

Sure it does. To say there's a character issue to get into the WWE Hall of Fame is just silly. Look at the list of druggies, wife beaters, homosexuals (that's a character flaw in some people's eyes, though not mine), pill poppers, murderer, bad fathers, etc. that are in the WWE Hall of Fame.

I guess there are degrees of morality issues which for me would result in someone being excluded from a hall of fame. Double murder seems to fit the bill for me, but that's just my opinion. Such issues as those others you've listed, including that character flaw known as homosexuality (??), I could probably look the other way. Strangling your son and wife with your bow flex, however, seems a little more problematic to me.

Which is why Benoit is not in. Doesn't change the fact he SHOULD be in.

I disagree. And shattered brings an interesting perspective. Should he be in the hall of fame regardless, when it could be argued that a lot of his accomplishments were outside of the WWE? Personally, I think his in ring accomplishments in WWE were sufficient in and of themselves, but when factoring in such extraneous details as double murder, my opinion changes.

But Snuka is. Which obviously means killing a woman doesn't prohibit you from getting into the WWE Hall of Fame. And since you said "the other people you listed didn't murder any women or children" that would kind of make you wrong, would it not?

I hate to do so, but I will plead slight ignorance here. Was Superfly ever convicted of this, or for that matter, ever formally accused? I'm too lazy to check, but it seems to me that if he was never either formally accused or convicted, it's not the same thing. Hearsay would be less damaging than hard evidence.

No, it's very much relevant. What it says is that the man who was a Hall of Famer was not the same man who killed his wife and child.

Nice poetic sentiments expressed here, but the fact of the matter is, it is the same man. He may not have been fully responsible for his actions, but he still performed them, and has such, cannot be publicly rewarded or honored.

No they won't. As soon as they cannot make money off of it, they won't care. Pro wrestling isn't a big enough entity to make money off of something that happened 15 years previous.

You seem to have a far more jaded view of the world than I do, and that's fine, not my place to say you are wrong. There's more to what makes something significant than the money aspect of it. We disagreed on these sentiments regarding Casey Anthony, and we disagree now. Pro wrestling is a big enough entity that people won't want to see a double murderer honored in this fashion.

OJ played in the NFL, something a LOT more people care about than wrestling. OJ Simpson also acted in the popular Naked Gun movies. OJ Simpson was a name a very high percentage of people knew.

I agree on these points, but you didn't really answer my question directly. Would OJ be welcomed into the Hall of Fame today if he weren't already there, bearing in mind the accusations that he was ultimately acquitted of?

Chris Benoit is a name that most non-wrestling fans would say, "hmm...seems like I've heard that name somewhere before....".

I disagree. Main steam media loves dirty laundry. They may forget about Benoit, until talk of honoring him stirs up the sting of what he did, and invariably spawns an outcry against it.

I never said Benoit was a war hero. What I said is that so often we arbitrarily assign morality based upon how it relates to our ability to make ourselves feel good about ourselves. The soldiers who kill are heroes, the mentally damaged man who kills is evil, according to many people.

I realize you didn't. And some sanctimonious people will instill their own concepts of morality upon is, often improperly so. In the end of the day, though, the man strangled his wife and child to death, which has to been as an evil act, even if not performed by an evil man.