Orton's Destruction Of Wyatt's Holy Ground

[Jeff Deliverer of Mail]

The whole segment smacked of the "Final Deletion" stuff that the Hardys did, meaning that while WWE pretend that they don't acknowledge TNA, they are trying to do their own version of one of their storylines.

WWF and WCW did many, many crazy goofy angles that were over the top and zany. They have also went dark like the Orton segment on SD live. The Final Deletion was nothing more than an extended version of crazy segments WWF/WCW have already covered in the past. So really, TNA once again copied WWF/WCW ideas and made it quite a bit crazier.

 

[Greg4WWE]

So who exactly is the face and heel here? I think Orton is face and Bray heel, but who freaking knows?

 

[ShinChan]

Damn.

I have always preferred matches over promos. Always. And still do so. Rarely do I like someone's promo.

But this is the best promo segment ever for me. No other segment has intrigued me this much until now.

The feud has everything you could want for. It's the best feud for me after that Daniel Bryan's feud with Authority.

Multiple layers were added to this angle and it has been an old school classic feud. Initially we all expected to see Orton defeat Bray Wyatt in a 2 month long feud. But we got a diamond feud.

I'm invested in this damn good feud since Randy joined Wyatts. Just don't let Orton defeat Bray for the title at Wrestlemania 33.

 

[XXJJ]

I loved it. I thought it was great. Orton betrayed Wyatt in probably the worst way possible when he finally gained his full trust. Their match needs to be really brutal..No Holds barred or something..

 

[d_henderson1810]

I want to comment on the final segment from Smackdown last week, where Randy Orton turned on Bray, and burnt down the Wyatt compound.

Ever since "Elimination Chamber" I have not liked where this feud is going.

One issue is the thought of yet another Triple-Threat Match for the WWE Title at Wrestlemania (no Triple-Threats for the main title in the first 19 WMs, one this year would make it 8 of the last 13).

Also, including A.J. Styles, when he has had no involvement with this story previously, smacks of "giving A.J. a match because we didn't give him a proper feud leading in Wrestlemania the last few months".

Getting back to the invication. Orton burns down the compound, and Bray looks upset, falls to his knees, and almost cries. WTF!

I have always seen Bray as a hybrid of David Koresh and Charles Manson. Koresh burnt down his own compound at Waco. So, do you think a cult leader would be upset about his compound being burnt down?

Bray wouldn't have been upset and almost crying. He should laugh at it, at Orton, and almost taunt him, saying "Is that all you have, Orton?"

Bray is meant to be a sicko. He loves destruction. He loves watching the "world burn". This is the "Eater Of Worlds" we are talking about, a meglomaniac who preaches doom, and acts like he is looking forward to the end of the world. You think burning down a simple compound would hurt Bray?

Bray doesn't care about material things, like a compound. He would see Sister Abigail's resting place being burnt as her "sacrifice".

I see Bray as a modern-day "Undertaker archetype". He uses fear to get to his opponents. Do you think Undertaker would fall to his knees, scared and crying in a fetal position, if someone burnt his holy place? Would Taker have fear in his face, and tears in his eyes? NO! No, he wouldn't. It would make him angry, and make him want to rip the perpetrator's heart out.

Bray should be indifferent, or be angry, but not sad and crying. Winning the title has made him "soft" .

Also, Orton betraying him. Bray would never be sucked in by someone else. People like Bray are usually paranoid, and constantly think that people are plotting against them. He should have expected Orton may try to betray him, and get in first. He does what he expects Orton to do to him.

So, we are now going to get a weak, simpering Bray Wyatt leading to Wrestlemania. A man who has lost his bite, so his bark means nothing any more.

"The Eater Of Worlds" is dead, unless they recover his character quickly. The WWE have listened too much to fan's chants of "You deserve it", and using their cell phones as "fireflys" for his entrance. Being popular doesn't mean that he should turn face, especially these days, when fans cheer heels more than faces. If WWE won't listen to fans on turning Cena or Roman, then don't do it with Bray either.

I like Bray Wyatt as a character, but I like the evil madman who wants world destruction and rules by fear, not some smiling face who will touch people's hands as he walks down the aisle. What's next, Orton visits Bray's house, and threatens his wife and children?

This segment last week made Bray look worse than John Cena beating him at WM30, IMO.

 

[@smarkmouth]

Getting back to the invication. Orton burns down the compound, and Bray looks upset, falls to his knees, and almost cries. WTF!

I have always seen Bray as a hybrid of David Koresh and Charles Manson. Koresh burnt down his own compound at Waco. So, do you think a cult leader would be upset about his compound being burnt down?

You're nitpicking. Bray Wyatt might be modeled after cult leaders like Koresh and Manson, but that doesn't mean you model every single aspect around them. While we're at it, geeze guys, Manson's Family never wore sheep masks or waved cell phones around.

I don't really understand what bothers you about Bray getting upset either. In his last years, Wyatt has never been angry, been scared, been upset. He's been an agent of chaos who's above all that. I'm not saying it packed the same punch, but Bray Wyatt showing vulnerability is comparable to Undertaker losing at WrestleMania. This was a big deal for his character.

Let's also talk about what was burned. Bray didn't care about a crap shed. He burned the remains of Sister Abigail, who has been the crux of the entire Bray Wyatt character. There are more Wyatt promos where he speaks her name than promos without. Randy literally torched the Messiah's Messiah. If Bray Wyatt no-sold that, it would have cheapened everything he's done up onto that point.

Bray is meant to be a sicko. He loves destruction. He loves watching the "world burn". This is the "Eater Of Worlds" we are talking about, a meglomaniac who preaches doom, and acts like he is looking forward to the end of the world. You think burning down a simple compound would hurt Bray?

Again, it's not the compound that hurt Bray

Bray doesn't care about material things, like a compound.

Hey! You're getting it!

He would see Sister Abigail's resting place being burnt as her "sacrifice".

Would he, now? Are you Bray Wyatt? Did you make that character choice?

Okay, let me buy into your premise for a second. Wyatt is a cult leader, mindless, soul-less, devoid of any kind of empathy and connection to the world around him. In spite of that, this spiritual symbol that he chronically refers to remains is one guiding light and got torched. He then got upset. As if he's not...

wait...

he's not just a cult leader...

We've added another layer to Bray Wyatt...

He's more than just some simple archetypei! He's becoming a well-rounded character!

I see Bray as a modern-day "Undertaker archetype". He uses fear to get to his opponents. Do you think Undertaker would fall to his knees, scared and crying in a fetal position, if someone burnt his holy place? Would Taker have fear in his face, and tears in his eyes? NO! No, he wouldn't. It would make him angry, and make him want to rip the perpetrator's heart out.

So you see Bray as Undertaker/Manson/Koresh (and let's be honest, Waylon Mercy). Those are fair comparisons, but Bray Wyatt is not the sum of those parts. He's not going to have the same motivations as those inspirations. He has his own drives, own goals, and they aren't always going to line up with what his models would do.

That's a good thing.

Also, Orton betraying him. Bray would never be sucked in by someone else. People like Bray are usually paranoid, and constantly think that people are plotting against them. He should have expected Orton may try to betray him, and get in first. He does what he expects Orton to do to him.

Through this angle, Orton has done everything for Bray, and that's not an empty phrase. Orton chronically demonstrated self-sacrifice to help Bray. Think of their showing in the Survivor Series, alone. In turn, we, the audience are given a reason to believe Bray would trust Orton. Everything about their presentation as a unit was sound, as if they were in it for the long haul. If you wanted the opposite, you can probably just review the Orton/Rollins feud going into WrestleMania 31. I don't know how you felt about that feud, but had Wyatt not trusted Orton, we'd be watching the same thing all over again.

So, we are now going to get a weak, simpering Bray Wyatt leading to Wrestlemania. A man who has lost his bite, so his bark means nothing any more.

Stop it! You're making Bray more complex than a two-dimensional gimmick!

The crux of your overall-argument assumes that Wyatt will have no kind of retaliation. Considering you're upset that WWE might be listening to the fans too much, you're certainly begging them to cater to short-attention spans.

Maybe you didn't like the segment, and that's fine. This is all subjective. But you've dissected your own opinion on the segment to the point where it has no legs.

 

[d_henderson1810]

You're nitpicking. Bray Wyatt might be modeled after cult leaders like Koresh and Manson, but that doesn't mean you model every single aspect around them. While we're at it, geeze guys, Manson's Family never wore sheep masks or waved cell phones around.

I don't really understand what bothers you about Bray getting upset either. In his last years, Wyatt has never been angry, been scared, been upset. He's been an agent of chaos who's above all that. I'm not saying it packed the same punch, but Bray Wyatt showing vulnerability is comparable to Undertaker losing at WrestleMania. This was a big deal for his character.

Let's also talk about what was burned. Bray didn't care about a crap shed. He burned the remains of Sister Abigail, who has been the crux of the entire Bray Wyatt character. There are more Wyatt promos where he speaks her name than promos without. Randy literally torched the Messiah's Messiah. If Bray Wyatt no-sold that, it would have cheapened everything he's done up onto that point.



Again, it's not the compound that hurt Bray



Hey! You're getting it!



Would he, now? Are you Bray Wyatt? Did you make that character choice?

Okay, let me buy into your premise for a second. Wyatt is a cult leader, mindless, soul-less, devoid of any kind of empathy and connection to the world around him. In spite of that, this spiritual symbol that he chronically refers to remains is one guiding light and got torched. He then got upset. As if he's not...

wait...

he's not just a cult leader...

We've added another layer to Bray Wyatt...

He's more than just some simple archetypei! He's becoming a well-rounded character!



So you see Bray as Undertaker/Manson/Koresh (and let's be honest, Waylon Mercy). Those are fair comparisons, but Bray Wyatt is not the sum of those parts. He's not going to have the same motivations as those inspirations. He has his own drives, own goals, and they aren't always going to line up with what his models would do.

That's a good thing.



Through this angle, Orton has done everything for Bray, and that's not an empty phrase. Orton chronically demonstrated self-sacrifice to help Bray. Think of their showing in the Survivor Series, alone. In turn, we, the audience are given a reason to believe Bray would trust Orton. Everything about their presentation as a unit was sound, as if they were in it for the long haul. If you wanted the opposite, you can probably just review the Orton/Rollins feud going into WrestleMania 31. I don't know how you felt about that feud, but had Wyatt not trusted Orton, we'd be watching the same thing all over again.



Stop it! You're making Bray more complex than a two-dimensional gimmick!

The crux of your overall-argument assumes that Wyatt will have no kind of retaliation. Considering you're upset that WWE might be listening to the fans too much, you're certainly begging them to cater to short-attention spans.

Maybe you didn't like the segment, and that's fine. This is all subjective. But you've dissected your own opinion on the segment to the point where it has no legs.

No. Manson didn't use sheep masks, neither did Koresh. But both were cult leaders, who could get their followers to blindly follow whatever they told them (In fact, Manson's cult was called "The Family", whereas Bray's is called "The Wyatt Family" . It wasn't called that because Rowan, Harper or Strowman were his brothers (they weren't), they were his "family".

Wyatt showing vunerability sucked, just like Taker losing the Streak sucked (especially to that P.O.S. Lesnar).

How can Bray can about the ashes? It is her "spirit" that leads him. Abigail is dead, so it isn't like Orton killed her. A normal person would be upset by such desecration. But Bray isn't like us. He is unmoved and sociopathic. He sees fear as weakness.

You say that it gives emotion to his character. Then, I suppose you liked it when "Stone Cold" Steve Austin went heel in 2001, then, as it added a new layer to his character too.

What if Austin was crying in the corner, and shaking like a leaf when the Rock threw Austin'd "Smoking Skull" belt off a bridge?

You didn't buy Orton's act for a moment, did you? He did the same thing to Seth Rollins. He did it then, he did it again. He is the "Apex Predator".

My point is, Bray should have seen it coming. Like I said, most cult leaders are often paranoid, and often convinced that they are constantly being undermined.

In fact, I would believe it more if someone like Harper did it, given their past, and someone who he considered "family". Orton was an outsider. Harper saw it. Does that make Harper smarter than Bray?

I saw Bray turning on Harper a ruse, to suck in Orton. Bray should have been the one to turn on Orton, not the other way around. Bray betrays Orton, before Orton betrays him. Orton has been a face before, so it won't destroy his character by turning. Bray can't be looked at as such a feared character ever again.

Congrats, fans. You wanted Bray as a face, you got it. But now, he will be watered down. Who will fear him now, now that someone has shown him up? Unless Bray gets so angry, that he burns down Randy's house. But the way all the bullshit has gone on with this feud since EC, I think they will go with the smiling face Bray Wyatt instead.

"The Eater Of Worlds" Bray Wyatt
2013-2017

 

[d_henderson1810]

To see how to breakup a wrestling alliance pure and simple, look at Jericho and Owens by comparison.

-Kevin Owens turns on Jericho (Jericho makes a great face, whereas Owens works best as a heel, so the one who turned face was the right one).

-Jericho costs Owens his title at Fast Lane.

-Owens says that he always used Jericho. It still makes Jericho look gullible, but is easier to buy than some cult leader being hoodwinked.

-Jericho challenges Owens to a match at Wrestlemania. Owens says, put the title on the line, Jericho accepts. Match made.

Pure, simple. What promises to be a great match at Wrestlemania, between two former friends. No third parties. No "I won't fight you because I am your friend" bullshit. Simple booking is sometimes the best.

How it should have gone with Orton v Bray

-Harper comes and confronts Bray, stares at him. Orton is standing there. He then attacks Orton.

-Bray comes over and pulls Harper off. It looks like he is protecting Orton, but then grabs him in a "Sister Abigail". He then does it again to ram the point home.

-Bray says that he used Orton "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer", and says that him turning on Harper was a ruse all along, to make Orton believe that Bray picked him over Harper. Bray says that Harper has always been his family.

-Orton then says that he used Bray as well, and was waiting for the right time to strike, but Bray one-upped him. Well, it will be different when he cashes in his Royal Rumble win for a WWE Title shot at Wrestlemania. Match on.

The problem is, "Smackdown" has seven weeks to fill, "Raw" has four. This is why I want them to end the brand extension, or to have mixed PPVs every month, like they used to in the later years of the first brand extension, where you have four matches from RAW, and four from Smackdown. Then both brands get equal build-up, rather than pissing four weeks of TV down the toilet for nothing.

 

[Navi]

If the truth be told Bray Wyatt is probably the worst cult leader in the history of cult leaders, as I suppose that what his character is supposed to be. When you look at his history, he started out with Rowan and Harper. Tried to recruit Daniel Bryan, John Cena, Chris Jericho and in a way Dean Ambrose. All of it backfired on him.

He even tried to take over the Undertaker's role as the "Face of Fear". Yea again that went nowhere. In the middle of all this happening, he lost Rowan and Harper, only to get them back again. Had Strowman join of his own accord really, and then lost him too. Finally he went after Orton and got him. Only thing was Orton was out to get him instead, and did.

I get what they were doing with the cabin in the woods and the fire and all. When you read about cult leaders it always happen's in a place away from the rest of the civilized world. Almost like they create their own little slice of heaven as they know it. It's where all their nefarious plans are created and where the cult can do what they want away from prying eyes. They almost become an island to themselves, where they can feel protected and untouchable.

By Orton burning down Bray's cabin which supposedly held the remains of Sister Abigail, he desecrated Bray's sacred ground and took away his power. Or Orton is just a closet arsonist and we don't know it. But anyway it made for a great promo for once in Orton's life.

 

[Stone Cold Tea]

If your complaining about this segment then stop watching wrestling.

 

[@smarkmouth]

No. Manson didn't use sheep masks, neither did Koresh. But both were cult leaders, who could get their followers to blindly follow whatever they told them (In fact, Manson's cult was called "The Family", whereas Bray's is called "The Wyatt Family" . It wasn't called that because Rowan, Harper or Strowman were his brothers (they weren't), they were his "family".

Good work, detective.

Wyatt showing vunerability sucked, just like Taker losing the Streak sucked (especially to that P.O.S. Lesnar).

Subjective, so I won't fight you.

How can Bray can about the ashes? It is her "spirit" that leads him. Abigail is dead, so it isn't like Orton killed her. A normal person would be upset by such desecration. But Bray isn't like us. He is unmoved and sociopathic. He sees fear as weakness.

Yet he may be the most fearful of them all. Poetic, ironic, and a real person. We've moved away from gimmicks and have focused on characters.

You say that it gives emotion to his character. Then, I suppose you liked it when "Stone Cold" Steve Austin went heel in 2001, then, as it added a new layer to his character too.

Not a good comparison. Austin's actions during his heel run were completely unbecoming and contrary to everything Austin was before. Babyface Stone Cold didn't hug his friends. Why would heel Stone Cold? Bray Wyatt, on the other hand, had never been put in a situation where Sister Abigail was threatened. This was the first time we saw such a scenario, and Bray showed us how he'd react in such a situation.

You didn't buy Orton's act for a moment, did you?

We knew from day one that this angle was leading to an inevitable betrayal, yes. But that's just looking at the angle and it's natural progression. Their on-screen relationship was presented as if it were built to last. We'd likely still be waiting for the swerve, but if Randy and Bray were still allies on this road to WrestleMania against a different rival, there'd be no reason to bat an eye.

My point is, Bray should have seen it coming. Like I said, most cult leaders are often paranoid, and often convinced that they are constantly being undermined.

And again, Bray is more than a two-dimensional character, hence I bolded "most" for you.

Congrats, fans. You wanted Bray as a face, you got it. But now, he will be watered down. Who will fear him now, now that someone has shown him up? Unless Bray gets so angry, that he burns down Randy's house. But the way all the bullshit has gone on with this feud since EC, I think they will go with the smiling face Bray Wyatt instead.

"The Eater Of Worlds" Bray Wyatt
2013-2017

This is another thing I don't get. How do you see him crying as the catalyst for a face turn? He's not glad handing crowds or anything of the like. His vulnerability wasn't exactly sympathetic. It's possible a face turn is in the cards, but it is FAR from being confirmed. Your argument falls apart entirely on this one.

To see how to breakup a wrestling alliance pure and simple, look at Jericho and Owens by comparison.

-Kevin Owens turns on Jericho (Jericho makes a great face, whereas Owens works best as a heel, so the one who turned face was the right one).

-Jericho costs Owens his title at Fast Lane.

-Owens says that he always used Jericho. It still makes Jericho look gullible, but is easier to buy than some cult leader being hoodwinked.

-Jericho challenges Owens to a match at Wrestlemania. Owens says, put the title on the line, Jericho accepts. Match made.

Pure, simple. What promises to be a great match at Wrestlemania, between two former friends. No third parties. No "I won't fight you because I am your friend" bullshit. Simple booking is sometimes the best.

I don't disagree. Wrestling is not an overly complicated art form. Simple does indeed often work best.

How it should have gone with Orton v Bray

-Harper comes and confronts Bray, stares at him. Orton is standing there. He then attacks Orton.

-Bray comes over and pulls Harper off. It looks like he is protecting Orton, but then grabs him in a "Sister Abigail". He then does it again to ram the point home.

-Bray says that he used Orton "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer", and says that him turning on Harper was a ruse all along, to make Orton believe that Bray picked him over Harper. Bray says that Harper has always been his family.

-Orton then says that he used Bray as well, and was waiting for the right time to strike, but Bray one-upped him. Well, it will be different when he cashes in his Royal Rumble win for a WWE Title shot at Wrestlemania. Match on.

It works, but a far cry from the dramatic punch we got. But again, that's subjective.

 

[d_henderson1810]

If the truth be told Bray Wyatt is probably the worst cult leader in the history of cult leaders, as I suppose that what his character is supposed to be. When you look at his history, he started out with Rowan and Harper. Tried to recruit Daniel Bryan, John Cena, Chris Jericho and in a way Dean Ambrose. All of it backfired on him.

He even tried to take over the Undertaker's role as the "Face of Fear". Yea again that went nowhere. In the middle of all this happening, he lost Rowan and Harper, only to get them back again. Had Strowman join of his own accord really, and then lost him too. Finally he went after Orton and got him. Only thing was Orton was out to get him instead, and did.

I get what they were doing with the cabin in the woods and the fire and all. When you read about cult leaders it always happen's in a place away from the rest of the civilized world. Almost like they create their own little slice of heaven as they know it. It's where all their nefarious plans are created and where the cult can do what they want away from prying eyes. They almost become an island to themselves, where they can feel protected and untouchable.

By Orton burning down Bray's cabin which supposedly held the remains of Sister Abigail, he desecrated Bray's sacred ground and took away his power. Or Orton is just a closet arsonist and we don't know it. But anyway it made for a great promo for once in Orton's life.

Bray has been portrayed as a bad cult leader because of his booking. Losing to Cena at WMXXX hurt him. He has also been booked badly in other feuds.

Secondly, having Bryan join was going to be a long-term storyline. However, that was quickly disposed of, when the fans wanted Bryan in the main event of WMXXX instead. So, Bryan turns on Bray, and then Cena beats Bray at WMXXX. Not a good time to be a cult leader.

Also, Harper, Rowan and Strowman dropped in or out because they were either injured, or move to a different brand (like Strowman was). I doubt that this counts (mind you, if it was a real cult, they would never be allowed to leave).

Bray Wyatt should have been built as the 21st century Undertaker. In fact, I would have built up Bray until he meets Taker, in Taker's last WM match ever, and then have Bray end the streak, and the torch is passed.

Bray would keep the "Buried Alive", Last Ride and Casket Matches alive and well.

But they have sacrificed his character for a good promo. It wasn't just that they turned him, they made him look weak.

If they ever turned Bray face, this is how I would have done it. I would have had the Wyatt Family cross the Authority. The Wyatts show that they don't feel the Authority, and aren't bound by their rules.Have them be anti-Authority figures. This would keep Bray strong, keep Triple H a heel, and the fans will side with the Wyatts in the feud anyway, since they boo Triple H and Steph. This would have made the Wyatts faces without making them weak. But having Bray sobbing in a corner hurts his character.

 

[d_henderson1810]

The end of this week's SD Live was some of the biggest BS I have ever seen.

So, now Randy Orton was some staff with a crucifix on it, and he stuck into the ground at the compound (which he already burnt down) on Sister Abigail's ashes (which he supposedly destroyed) and little sparks shoot out.

WTF? So now Randy Orton is the Undertaker, able to control the elements and use magic? What's next, is Orton going to put a spell on Bray and make him dance like a chicken?

The match at WM had better deliver, as what was looking a few months ago as a Wrestlemania feud I was hanging out for is now a ridiculous mishmash.

I think that they could have salvaged this feud by having, when Luke Harper wanted to fight Bray, he tells Bray that he doesn't fear him anymore, nor does anyone else, and Bray has to show Randy Orton and everyone else watching why he is still a force to be a feared, an "Eater Of Worlds". So Bray beats Orton at WM, not only to retain the title, but to show everyone that he is still to be feared. But magical staffs is not a great way to lead to a WWE Title Match at Wrestlemania, especially if it goes on last.

 

[Navi]

The end of this week's SD Live was some of the biggest BS I have ever seen.

So, now Randy Orton was some staff with a crucifix on it, and he stuck into the ground at the compound (which he already burnt down) on Sister Abigail's ashes (which he supposedly destroyed) and little sparks shoot out.

WTF? So now Randy Orton is the Undertaker, able to control the elements and use magic? What's next, is Orton going to put a spell on Bray and make him dance like a chicken?

The match at WM had better deliver, as what was looking a few months ago as a Wrestlemania feud I was hanging out for is now a ridiculous mishmash.

I think that they could have salvaged this feud by having, when Luke Harper wanted to fight Bray, he tells Bray that he doesn't fear him anymore, nor does anyone else, and Bray has to show Randy Orton and everyone else watching why he is still a force to be a feared, an "Eater Of Worlds". So Bray beats Orton at WM, not only to retain the title, but to show everyone that he is still to be feared. But magical staffs is not a great way to lead to a WWE Title Match at Wrestlemania, especially if it goes on last.

I think this storyline is one of the best that's going on both shows right now. Bray's so called armour shield has shown that it can be breached, although on last week's episode of SD he immersed himself in the ashes of Sister Abigail and has since been reborn. So now he's unstoppable again.

And Randy Orton is the most interesting he's been in a long time now. I don't know who will win at Mania but it should be a good match. Supernatural hi jinks have also been a mark of the Bray Wyatt character. If you remember a couple of years ago Undertaker was shooting bolts of purple lightening from the titantron at Wyatt's chair. No difference here. Doubt the match will go on last though, it will be near the end, Wyatt's entrance needs darkness for it to work. Lesnar/Goldberg should be last.

 

[ISkye]

If your complaining about this segment then stop watching wrestling.

It's literally been good and consistent for months on end. You can go back at any month and there are at least 4-5 great moments or clips that people gave a great reception to overall.

Every single RAW feud had an awful lead in going into Wrestlemania considering segments from even the same month in comparison. I've seen a bit of people complain about this one, but you have to be very over critical or stuck in your own mind to critique it too heavily. Too many worse finishes, worse segments weekly, less great moments, and worse overall feuds to justify me even caring to complain.

 

[d_henderson1810]

I think this storyline is one of the best that's going on both shows right now. Bray's so called armour shield has shown that it can be breached, although on last week's episode of SD he immersed himself in the ashes of Sister Abigail and has since been reborn. So now he's unstoppable again.

And Randy Orton is the most interesting he's been in a long time now. I don't know who will win at Mania but it should be a good match. Supernatural hi jinks have also been a mark of the Bray Wyatt character. If you remember a couple of years ago Undertaker was shooting bolts of purple lightening from the titantron at Wyatt's chair. No difference here. Doubt the match will go on last though, it will be near the end, Wyatt's entrance needs darkness for it to work. Lesnar/Goldberg should be last.

"Supernatural hi-jinks has also been a mark of the Bray Wyatt character."

Yes. Bray Wyatt. Not Randy Orton!

It was RANDY ORTON who used the staff, not Bray. If Bray used the staff to "get Abigail's power" it would still be silly, but it fits Bray more. Randy Orton is some guy who has never shown any supernatural power in the past, yet he can get a staff to shoot little sparks out of it.

It would be better if Orton tries to play Bray, but finds that he bites off more than he can chew, and Bray is a power beyond anyone he has had to deal with before.

 

[d_henderson1810]

I think this storyline is one of the best that's going on both shows right now. Bray's so called armour shield has shown that it can be breached, although on last week's episode of SD he immersed himself in the ashes of Sister Abigail and has since been reborn. So now he's unstoppable again.

And Randy Orton is the most interesting he's been in a long time now. I don't know who will win at Mania but it should be a good match. Supernatural hi jinks have also been a mark of the Bray Wyatt character. If you remember a couple of years ago Undertaker was shooting bolts of purple lightening from the titantron at Wyatt's chair. No difference here. Doubt the match will go on last though, it will be near the end, Wyatt's entrance needs darkness for it to work. Lesnar/Goldberg should be last.

I got behind the Seth-Triple H contract signing more, and have invested in that story. Also, Jericho-Owens and the Divas.

Hell, on SD, I enjoyed A.J. v Shane's promo, and Cena's verbal smackdown of Miz was great. Much more enjoyable than Orton's silly staff trick, with rays of light flying around him.

Up to and including Elimination Chamber, the Orton-Bray story was good. Hell, Orton refusing to fight Bray for the belt offered potential. But from that week on, the bs has started.

If this was so well written, where was the part where Bray gives Orton "the keys to the kingdom" because of his loyalty? People had to find this out online. It is up to the writers to explain this properly, not go looking for information.

I hope the match delivers at Wrestlemania, and that, going forward, Bray remains on the dark side, and doesn't revert back to being Husky Harris.

All I want is for Bray to go to RAW via the next draft lottery, so he is one hundred feet away from SD Live writers, who have NFI how to portray him.

 

[d_henderson1810]

Good work, detective.



Subjective, so I won't fight you.



Yet he may be the most fearful of them all. Poetic, ironic, and a real person. We've moved away from gimmicks and have focused on characters.



Not a good comparison. Austin's actions during his heel run were completely unbecoming and contrary to everything Austin was before. Babyface Stone Cold didn't hug his friends. Why would heel Stone Cold? Bray Wyatt, on the other hand, had never been put in a situation where Sister Abigail was threatened. This was the first time we saw such a scenario, and Bray showed us how he'd react in such a situation.



We knew from day one that this angle was leading to an inevitable betrayal, yes. But that's just looking at the angle and it's natural progression. Their on-screen relationship was presented as if it were built to last. We'd likely still be waiting for the swerve, but if Randy and Bray were still allies on this road to WrestleMania against a different rival, there'd be no reason to bat an eye.



And again, Bray is more than a two-dimensional character, hence I bolded "most" for you.



This is another thing I don't get. How do you see him crying as the catalyst for a face turn? He's not glad handing crowds or anything of the like. His vulnerability wasn't exactly sympathetic. It's possible a face turn is in the cards, but it is FAR from being confirmed. Your argument falls apart entirely on this one.



I don't disagree. Wrestling is not an overly complicated art form. Simple does indeed often work best.



It works, but a far cry from the dramatic punch we got. But again, that's subjective.

"Dramatic punch"? It's wrestling, not Shakespeare.

Wrestling storylines are like jokes, there are only seven of them, and every other storyline are offshoots of that basic premise.

Trying to do something different is risky, and the story had better pay off, and you need to still remain true to the character. Bray looking scared (which he isn't usually) is a neat twist. Having Bray sit near the commentary desk, sobbing about Orton burning down his compound is not giving an extra dimension of the character, it is selling out his character.

If Bray goes face, he still needs to be a crazy, scary guy, not some buffoon who can be brought down so easily. He must remain the same, but just fight the heels instead of the faces.

Like I said, making the Wyatts anti-heroes by having them feud with the Authority, for example, would be a good way of turning Bray face, and keeping him as the same character.

 

[Navi]

"Supernatural hi-jinks has also been a mark of the Bray Wyatt character."

Yes. Bray Wyatt. Not Randy Orton!

It was RANDY ORTON who used the staff, not Bray. If Bray used the staff to "get Abigail's power" it would still be silly, but it fits Bray more. Randy Orton is some guy who has never shown any supernatural power in the past, yet he can get a staff to shoot little sparks out of it.

It would be better if Orton tries to play Bray, but finds that he bites off more than he can chew, and Bray is a power beyond anyone he has had to deal with before.

If it's the same staff I'm seeing then it was given to him by Bray Wyatt on last weeks SD. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. So it wasn't Orton being all hocus pocus it was something that belonged to Wyatt to begin with. It fits the story line which I'll say again is a good one.

 

[d_henderson1810]

If it's the same staff I'm seeing then it was given to him by Bray Wyatt on last weeks SD. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. So it wasn't Orton being all hocus pocus it was something that belonged to Wyatt to begin with. It fits the story line which I'll say again is a good one.

Why would Bray give Orton his staff to begin with? This is a guy who burnt down his compound, and Bray is so upset about it, that he gives him his staff? WTF.

This storyline is making Bray look like the biggest idiot out. Even Cena's win at WMXXX didn't damage Bray as much as this storyline is.

 

[Navi]

Why would Bray give Orton his staff to begin with? This is a guy who burnt down his compound, and Bray is so upset about it, that he gives him his staff? WTF.

This storyline is making Bray look like the biggest idiot out. Even Cena's win at WMXXX didn't damage Bray as much as this storyline is.

Okay I'm just reading into it from a fan's perspective here and keep in mind I could be way off base totally. When Wyatt went back to the burned out shack he put Sister Abigail's ashes all over his face and body, that's when he found out it didn't matter about Orton burning up the shack, she lives within Bray now. In order words he embodies the spirit of Sister Abigail and is virtually unstoppable. The shack was his one weakness and Orton burning it down turned it into Wyatt's greatest strength.

So I guess he has no need for staff's and things like that anymore because the power is within him, not in a foreign object. Like I said, that's what I see in this, could be totally wrong on so many counts.

 

[d_henderson1810]

Okay I'm just reading into it from a fan's perspective here and keep in mind I could be way off base totally. When Wyatt went back to the burned out shack he put Sister Abigail's ashes all over his face and body, that's when he found out it didn't matter about Orton burning up the shack, she lives within Bray now. In order words he embodies the spirit of Sister Abigail and is virtually unstoppable. The shack was his one weakness and Orton burning it down turned it into Wyatt's greatest strength.

So I guess he has no need for staff's and things like that anymore because the power is within him, not in a foreign object. Like I said, that's what I see in this, could be totally wrong on so many counts.

Then, if he didn't need the staff anymore, and left it at the burnt remains of the compound, then how did Randy have little sparks fly from it when he stuck it in the ground?

Also, you say you are seeing it from a fan's perspective. No, you should see it from what actually happened on-screen. There is too much left to speculation. Each step in the feud should be shown, so that we know how Orton has the staff, how he got "the keys to the kingdom". Many have speculated here. It shouldn't need speculation, good writing would make it as clear as crystal.

Look, by comparison, how Raw have built their Wrestlemania feuds. They have 6 matches at 'Mania, and four weeks to build for it, and yet all the stories make sense. Over on Smackdown, we have Nikki Bella fighting in a mixed tag match, when, logically, she would include herself in the WWE SD Women's Title match instead. There has hardly been anything about Ambrose v Corbin, and they started feuding the night after EC, it took four weeks before A.J. v Shane was even announced, and they have this nonsense with Bray v Orton, which they have spent months building. SD had seven weeks to build for 'Mania (seven weeks for two hours a week = 14 hours), as opposed to RAW, who had four weeks (four weeks at three hours a week = 12 hours). So, SD had more time to build their matches, with only 4 WM matches (they could have had American Alpha v Usos, but couldn't be assed including them), and make a hash of it, whereas Raw has three less weeks, with 6 main matches, and yet can deliver lucid, logical storylines with them.

 

[Navi]

Then, if he didn't need the staff anymore, and left it at the burnt remains of the compound, then how did Randy have little sparks fly from it when he stuck it in the ground?

Also, you say you are seeing it from a fan's perspective. No, you should see it from what actually happened on-screen. There is too much left to speculation. Each step in the feud should be shown, so that we know how Orton has the staff, how he got "the keys to the kingdom". Many have speculated here. It shouldn't need speculation, good writing would make it as clear as crystal.

I think you are looking too hard into this. It's entertainment, and for me I'm entertained by the whole story line. It's different and that's a breath of fresh air right now. It's wrestling how great has the writing been for a long time now? At least this story line has progression, maybe a few hiccups here and there, but they've remained true to to the Bray Wyatt character and that's the most important thing. It should be a good match, hocus pocus aside these two can and probably will deliver. The added bonus is we might actually get to meet the mythical Sister Abigail for once.

 

[d_henderson1810]

I think you are looking too hard into this. It's entertainment, and for me I'm entertained by the whole story line. It's different and that's a breath of fresh air right now. It's wrestling how great has the writing been for a long time now? At least this story line has progression, maybe a few hiccups here and there, but they've remained true to to the Bray Wyatt character and that's the most important thing. It should be a good match, hocus pocus aside these two can and probably will deliver. The added bonus is we might actually get to meet the mythical Sister Abigail for once.

I am a guy who cares about a story as much as a match. While a lot of people's favourite thing about wrestling are the matches, or the promos, I am a "storyline" guy. I like to see what brought these two feuding people or tag-teams from point A to point B. I like the historical packages before PPV matches, showing what lead up to the match. I don't care just about the match, but why they are fighting. This is why indys doesn't interest me, as it is two guys in the match seeing who is better. I like more meat to the feuds than that.

The Orton v Bray feud, leading up to EC, was quite interesting. I couldn't tell who would screw over who. Both are duplicious, and either could turn on the other.

However, since Elimination Chamber, this story has been a mess. I liked Orton pledging his alliance to Bray, and refusing to challenge him. The only problem is that it tied up A.J. Styles' for three weeks, when they could have built a better feud for him than against Shane McMahon. The focus went on a possible Triple-Threat, when I wanted a singles match between two guys who have rarely fought (it isn't like they have fought numerous times on SD previously, only one PPV match, and that was it). Then, Orton turns and burns down the compound out of nowhere (it was never explained, on-air, how Orton got access to the compound). Bray descends into a flood of tears, instead of looking just shocked, and scared, but also angry and bowing revenge.

It looked better when Bray wiped Sister Abigail's ashes on himself. But then Randy Orton, who has suddenly developed unexplained, supernatural power, plunged a staff into the dirt where Sister Abigail lay (except that Bray is now wearing her ashes, so they aren't in the ground anymore), and little sparks and lights fly out of it, like a scene from "Raiders Of The Lost Ark". Bray doing this makes sense, since he is in touch with the supernatural, but "the Apex Predator" now seems to have these powers, despite the fact that he was faking being part of the Family the whole time, and used some staff that Bray carelessly left behind, after already being hoodwinked last time when Orton was given "the keys" to the compound. Fool me once. Bray has been made to look like a complete gullible moron, who gets hoodwinked constantly by Randy Orton. Some supernatural battle between Bray and , say, the Undertaker, would be cool. But against Orton, where Bray constantly falls for Orton's tricks, makes Bray look stupid, all in an attempt to turn Bray face because the fans cheer him and say "You deserve it" when he wins the title.

Yes, Bray did deserve the title. But this chant made Vince think that Bray should now be a super-face who smiles and is a victim against evil, nasty Randy Orton, when a better story is Orton trying to bring down Bray, but biting off more than he can chew, and instead of Bray breaking down, it just angers him more, meaning that he will beat the suitcase out of Orton at WM33.

The writers tried to be clever, but it got convoluted, and they did things without explaining how they got there. I was looking forward to Bray v Orton after EC, but now I hope the story dies after WM, and Bray is moved to RAW, a hundred miles away from any SD Live writer or Randy Orton, and allowed to still be the "Eater Of Worlds" on the red brand, where they treat him better.

 

[d_henderson1810]

Just watched the Wrestlemania match between Bray Wyatt and Randy Orton, and that match takes the f...ing cake of ridiculousness.

WTF with the maggots, the rats and the other shit being transposed onto the ring? It might be a unique idea, but it looked stupid when it kept happening, and I wonder how the live crowd at the Citrus Bowl saw what was going on.

But, despite all those "mind tricks" Bray was playing on Randy Orton throughout the match, after the last "mind trick", all Randy had to do is hit one RKO, and pin Bray to three, to win the WWE Title again.

So, again, Bray is made to look bad, because he threw all these mind tricks at Orton, and YET it still didn't work. Wrestlemania should've been redemption for the Bray Wyatt character, a way to get his persona of fear back, but he was made to look shit again, which he has been made to look since Elimination Chamber.

So, now, he has lost his Family, his compound, Sister Abigail, and now his title. So he has nothing. Now, maybe they will have him get redemption at some stage, but it would have meant more at Wrestlemania, and Bray losing made the stupid "pictures" on the mat even more of a distraction and unnecessary than they already were.

Please, WWE, move Bray to RAW ASAP, and have him get his persona back. SD has shitted on him. He can reform with Braun Strowman, and mean something again.

But the night where the Undertaker possibly retired, the guy I saw as his successor to the "fear" gimmick was buried as well.

It would be nice if fucking Randy Orton could do the job to someone for once.