Ongoing Thread For Smarmy Spam Responses to the WZT

[Pay Per Ghost]

No. Because while the WWE may be a larger and more viable company now than it was in the 80's, they still aren't capable of drawing the attention and money with Cena that they did 25 years ago with Hogan. And whether or not you blame the economy or the fanbase or lack of marquee stars or whatever, point is Cena - despite having a larger pool to draw from - still can't draw like Hogan did.

And it's not like we are comparing one country to another here; Cena worked the same cities and regions as Hogan did and was less successful.

When you say he can't draw like Hogan, do you mean attendance, gate revenue, PPV buyrates?

Lets not drag TV ratings into this (when Hogan was in WCW). Can we just say TV changed drastically when Cena reached his prime.

EDIT: Scratch the Hogan would lose to Face deal, Cena vs Batista Summerslam 08.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

"Hulk's prime was in WCW"

Are you laughing because he was the top heel in the wrestling industry for several years? Or is it because he was serving as the leader for the biggest revenue-drawing wrestling stable in history? Or maybe, is it because he helped surge the popularity of his employers to levels that the company in which Hogan helped make a worldwide phenomenon legitimately feared for its ability to survive?

 

[Con T.]

Are you laughing because he was the top heel in the wrestling industry for several years? Or is it because he was serving as the leader for the biggest revenue-drawing wrestling stable in history? Or maybe, is it because he helped surge the popularity of his employers to levels that the company in which Hogan helped make a worldwide phenomenon legitimately feared for its ability to survive?

As a draw, he was great; I think it's a part of his personality, but in terms of arguing that Hogan would lost, because he lost to Goldberg and the like as Hollywood?

That, I don't buy

 

[Bernkastel]

When you say he can't draw like Hogan, do you mean attendance, gate revenue, PPV buyrates?

Lets not drag TV ratings into this (when Hogan was in WCW). Can we just say TV changed drastically when Cena reached his prime.

I wasn't trying to; my point was that Hogan was more successful than Cena in a time when the company as a whole was much smaller. Cena has several obstacles in his way from ever reaching the success Hogan had despite the company being larger, but I can't include those because doing so would handicap Hogan.

 

[Remy LaCroix]

OT: what's the next tournament?

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

I wasn't trying to; my point was that Hogan was more successful than Cena in a time when the company as a whole was much smaller. Cena has several obstacles in his way from ever reaching the success Hogan had despite the company being larger, but I can't include those because doing so would handicap Hogan.

Hogan took a regional promotion national, global; agree. Cena is king of WWE because Hogan and Vince were juggernauts back in the mid-80s and did everything to making it a success; agree. But Cena's feat is staying THE face, THE franchise for 8 years straight. That is unheard of in a national/global promotion.

Now to be clear please don't throw names like Harley Race in Kansas or Lawler in Memphis, being the face for years. Regional-Global. Hogan's popularity was being challenged by The Warriors and Takers in 91. He was told to wind up Hulkamania and ended up south, ended up boo'd. He saw there was no other avenue but to go heel, and he did. Credit to him for that. Hogan strategically placed himself in THE hottest angle of the time. Credit to him for that. All I am saying it that he has two hot periods, but Cena has this long-ass babyface run, which is against all wrestling norm of 'turn-him-heel-when-his-jets-cool'. That must go down as a huge point for how damn popualr Cena actually is. Even when he is getting boo'd out of the building on a weekly basis, he is still the Top babyface. You have to be something special, to challenge the laws of wrestling like this.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Hogan took a regional promotion national, global; agree. Cena is king of WWE because Hogan and Vince were juggernauts back in the mid-80s and did everything to making it a success; agree. But Cena's feat is staying THE face, THE franchise for 8 years straight. That is unheard of in a national/global promotion.

Now to be clear please don't throw names like Harley Race in Kansas or Lawler in Memphis, being the face for years. Regional-Global. Hogan's popularity was being challenged by The Warriors and Takers in 91. He was told to wind up Hulkamania and ended up south, ended up boo'd. He saw there was no other avenue but to go heel, and he did. Credit to him for that. Hogan strategically placed himself in THE hottest angle of the time. Credit to him for that. All I am saying it that he has two hot periods, but Cena has this long-ass babyface run, which is against all wrestling norm of 'turn-him-heel-when-his-jets-cool'. That must go down as a huge point for how damn popualr Cena actually is. Even when he is getting boo'd out of the building on a weekly basis, he is still the Top babyface. You have to be something special, to challenge the laws of wrestling like this.

I think it says more about creative than it does about Cena himself.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

I think it says more about creative than it does about Cena himself.

I hear this argument a lot, and I remember Austin's turn at Mania X7. Now prior to that Mania was Austin/H in a 3 stages of hell match. Hunter got a pretty awesome pop in that match, and Austin even got a few boos. Not resounding though. I remember Hogan being cheered for doing despicable things to Rock when the nWo returned, and then Hogan turning face at Mania upon 1 month of his arrival. Us cheering and booing makes a difference. Because wrestling has had that good guy vs bad guy formula, and it depends on who WE embrace. We have embraced a goody-two shoes like Hogan and a foul mouthed redneck like Austin.

And then there is Cena. Cena's popularity has turned this whole dicotomy of good guy vs bad guy on its head. I ain't saying Cena is not the good guy in every one of his matches, but that man's popularity has just turned a wrestling norm upside down. That is something unique. He has changed the way the business is written and presented, on the basis of his popularity

 

[Miko]

Hogan took a regional promotion national, global; agree. Cena is king of WWE because Hogan and Vince were juggernauts back in the mid-80s and did everything to making it a success; agree. But Cena's feat is staying THE face, THE franchise for 8 years straight. That is unheard of in a national/global promotion.

Now to be clear please don't throw names like Harley Race in Kansas or Lawler in Memphis, being the face for years. Regional-Global. Hogan's popularity was being challenged by The Warriors and Takers in 91. He was told to wind up Hulkamania and ended up south, ended up boo'd. He saw there was no other avenue but to go heel, and he did. Credit to him for that. Hogan strategically placed himself in THE hottest angle of the time. Credit to him for that. All I am saying it that he has two hot periods, but Cena has this long-ass babyface run, which is against all wrestling norm of 'turn-him-heel-when-his-jets-cool'. That must go down as a huge point for how damn popualr Cena actually is. Even when he is getting boo'd out of the building on a weekly basis, he is still the Top babyface. You have to be something special, to challenge the laws of wrestling like this.

Seems contradictory to me. I cant speak on why he's booed, but I can't see how he's getting booed and still an uber face works to his advantage as some kind of trend setter, pretty shit trend to set. Besides, it's just booking and fear that no one else can step up to fill his void, speaks for his talent I guess, also speaks to the lack thereof in everybody else.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

Seriously? We're asking which era of Hulk Hogan folks are going with when we talk about Hogan's prime? C'mon!

 

[Poop Master Flex]

I hear this argument a lot, and I remember Austin's turn at Mania X7. Now prior to that Mania was Austin/H in a 3 stages of hell match. Hunter got a pretty awesome pop in that match, and Austin even got a few boos. Not resounding though. I remember Hogan being cheered for doing despicable things to Rock when the nWo returned, and then Hogan turning face at Mania upon 1 month of his arrival. Us cheering and booing makes a difference. Because wrestling has had that good guy vs bad guy formula, and it depends on who WE embrace. We have embraced a goody-two shoes like Hogan and a foul mouthed redneck like Austin.

And then there is Cena. Cena's popularity has turned this whole dicotomy of good guy vs bad guy on its head. I ain't saying Cena is not the good guy in every one of his matches, but that man's popularity has just turned a wrestling norm upside down. That is something unique. He has changed the way the business is written and presented, on the basis of his popularity

Different scenario altogether. Hogan and Triple H were made men when they got cheered, they were already built up and bonafide main eventers and earned the fans respect. In today's WWE it's not like that at all. The problem with hiring TV writers instead of bookers is that writers don't understand wrestling, they don't understand what to do, when to do it and how to keep momentum going for long periods of time. Since Cena has been top dog the whole landscape of WWE has changed. No one is gonna get over Cena if they aren't pushed as such, or they don't push that person correctly.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

I probably don't pay enough attention but it seems to me that once you get in to the semi's of this tournament the discussions get worse.

Anyway, terrible final, should have put Andre through to face Hogan. The discussion so far has been a big bore.

 

[shattered dreams]

"Hulk's prime was in WCW"

Almost posted something similar when I saw that at lunch today. Had no idea LSN was that big of a mark.

 

[Bernkastel]

OT: what's the next tournament?

Probably Battlezone at the end of the year.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Seems contradictory to me. I cant speak on why he's booed, but I can't see how he's getting booed and still an uber face works to his advantage as some kind of trend setter, pretty shit trend to set. Besides, it's just booking and fear that no one else can step up to fill his void, speaks for his talent I guess, also speaks to the lack thereof in everybody else.

I know. It does speak of how there is really none who can REALLY take his place. But I don't just think its booking and fear. He must be churning out money as a face all this time, so WWE hasn't bothered to pull the trigger. If Cena's face run wasn't money making no more, they would've turned'em heel right?

Here is the deal, back in 1999, Rock was really gathering momentum, and as far as I know, WWE knew that Austin had to get his neck surgery, coz it was really bad. Thats why they turned Rocky face after Backlash 99. But Rocky really soared in popularity in the absence of Austin, after he got "run over". Cena's absence would be a scary situation for WWE, but in the long term you need someone who can be a viable counterpart. Orton looked so, but he wasn't deemed dependable due to his drug strikes. WWE just so big now, I dunno if they can ever risk not making good money. Hence the "Cena 1 day vacations".

Now, by that token, I feel, that his face run is too lucrative to turn heel. Should it happen? Maybe. I wouldn't mind really him being face forever. But the man has, changed a wrestling tradition. Now whoever faces Cena, is almost an instant babyface, you wanna make a new babyface, put him with a program with Cena. Cena gets huge credit for Punk being over in 2011 as well. True it was the shoot that started it, MiTB was the cauldron of excitement, but you had to put Cena in there with Punk, as that just made Punk so much more badass going up against someone that the 'cool kids' boo.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Different scenario altogether. Hogan and Triple H were made men when they got cheered, they were already built up and bonafide main eventers and earned the fans respect. In today's WWE it's not like that at all. The problem with hiring TV writers instead of bookers is that writers don't understand wrestling, they don't understand what to do, when to do it and how to keep momentum going for long periods of time. Since Cena has been top dog the whole landscape of WWE has changed. No one is gonna get over Cena if they aren't pushed as such, or they don't push that person correctly.

Who are these hired TV writers since Cena's been top dog? I ask because

A) We can assume they don't know jackshit, but they are there coz they are somewhat good. Debatable? Yes.

B) Aren't there former wrestlers too? Brian Gewirtz? He's a hired TV writer?

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Who are these hired TV writers since Cena's been top dog? I ask because

A) We can assume they don't know jackshit, but they are there coz they are somewhat good. Debatable? Yes.

B) Aren't there former wrestlers too? Brian Gewirtz? He's a hired TV writer?

Don't mind me asking but who was Brian Gewrtz when he was wrestling. Just I've been watching wrestling since I was in diapers and I honestly have never seen or heard of him outside a backstage role.

Now understand that comment I made goes off of a number or reports, former wrestlers, writers, ect. I've read, heard or watched, I don't know for sure because I don't work there but I've heard enough to at least consider it plus seeing just how wrestling is these days I would say its accurate. Outside Freddie Prinze I got no idea who actually has written for WWE at one point.

I'm not saying that WWE is doing it wrong its just different. Frankly they seem unsure a lot of times and cant make up their minds on who to push outside of Cena. Now if you don't push a person correctly then you cripple the wrestler, you don't help him. Nexus and Ryback are perfect examples of this. Cena got pushed correctly, they didn't rush his progress and kept on him in the right way. They let him simmer and naturally become the top dog instead of forcing him into that spot and after 9 years I will say it worked in spades. Now they push guys way too quickly then pull out when they didn't make a main eventer in 2 months. I'm just saying going by what I've seen they push wrestlers and stories way too quickly which hurts them I'm the long run.

Coming back to my initial comment that's the difference between Hogan getting cheered as a heel over Rock and whoever getting cheered over Cena, Hogan was a made man and respected, when we know Ryback as a character for only a year he isn't proven enough to be respected like Hogan, he's not a made man. Its a different scenario.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

No you said there are hired TV writers who don't understand wrestling. I was contesting that fact. I know there are TV writers and all, but I dunno how many of them there are, and I do think the ex-wrestlers turned writers also get a bulk of the writing done.

Yes Hogan was made, more than made really, and the fans just wanted the old Hulk, not Hollywood. WWE listened to the fans and gave them that at Mania X8. Now people have been screaming Cena sucks since 2006...Cena became champion in 2005, so that is roughly 1 year of maybe being a completely cheered champion. Then why? Why haven't they turned him a full fledged heel. I said this before it just can't be booking and fear, Cena must be doing something very right monetarily, to be changing wrestling tradition like this.

 

[Bernkastel]

No you said there are hired TV writers who don't understand wrestling. I was contesting that fact. I know there are TV writers and all, but I dunno how many of them there are, and I do think the ex-wrestlers turned writers also get a bulk of the writing done.

Yes Hogan was made, more than made really, and the fans just wanted the old Hulk, not Hollywood. WWE listened to the fans and gave them that at Mania X8. Now people have been screaming Cena sucks since 2006...Cena became champion in 2005, so that is roughly 1 year of maybe being a completely cheered champion. Then why? Why haven't they turned him a full fledged heel. I said this before it just can't be booking and fear, Cena must be doing something very right monetarily, to be changing wrestling tradition like this.

It's not so much Cena doing something right as its the fans continuously paying money to come cheer or boo him. On paper that seems absurd - surely people won't pay money to see something they hate right? Well the fans that boo Cena just love doing so, because that's their way of connecting with him. He's so terrible he's great.

Hogan didn't have to worry about that because kayfabe was still protected to the point where causal fans knew next to nothing about the way the business worked. There were no dirtsheets, no forums, in fact no internet at all.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

It's not so much Cena doing something right as its the fans continuously paying money to come cheer or boo him. On paper that seems absurd - surely people won't pay money to see something they hate right? Well the fans that boo Cena just love doing so, because that's their way of connecting with him. He's so terrible he's great.

Hogan didn't have to worry about that because kayfabe was still protected to the point where causal fans knew next to nothing about the way the business worked. There were no dirtsheets, no forums, in fact no internet at all.

Exactly, if Cena wasn't a special attraction people who didn't like him would just cease to come. Cena has connected with his detractors and his fans. Who has ever done that? Nobody came to boo Hogan, when he was Hulk Hogan and failing miserably in WCW. As Hulk Hogan in WWF, the business was still so guarded. Dirtsheets had just started by the late 80s, and guys were instructed to lay off Hogan verbally (This comes from a Piper excerpt where he said, he wasn't allowed to make light of Hogan's balding by VKM). Hulk Hogan had little mud flung on him...till the steroid scandal. That is one of the reasons why Hulk Hogan didn't work in WCW, the whole eat your vitamins, say your prayers allure was gone after the trial.


When Cena is in an arena, that place is electric. Cena can be wrestling literally, a broomstick and the place would be electric. Because the chants are always "Lets Go Cena", "Cena Sucks". Now whoever reads this, I will give you an observation; you can consider someone MADE in this era, when the counter chant to "Lets Go Cena" is "Lets Go *insert other wrestler's name*" and not "Cena Sucks". Why? Because the other wrestler is a big enough deal, to have his own chant against Cena. I know this sounds incredibly elementary but the whole psychology behind this isn't. To get dualing chants when Cena's name is but mentioned once, is remarkable in this era.

 

[Uncle Sam]

I think people have started taking how big a reaction Cena gets for granted. Genuinely. Maybe I'm watching Raw with the volume turned down but there's been a fair few shows where I certainly wouldn't have described the atmosphere as "electric".

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

So...

Cena lost in the finals last year-------> wife divorced him.

If Cena loses this year-------> does Nikki dump him?

 

[Miko]

I probably don't pay enough attention but it seems to me that once you get in to the semi's of this tournament the discussions get worse.

Anyway, terrible final, should have put Andre through to face Hogan. The discussion so far has been a big bore.

All the people left are shite to argue for or against. Have fun going around in circles guys.

Yep.

 

[Miko]

Still rather that than Shawn Michaels or Undertaker winning again though.

 

[shattered dreams]

Now whoever reads this, I will give you an observation; you can consider someone MADE in this era, when the counter chant to "Lets Go Cena" is "Lets Go *insert other wrestler's name*" and not "Cena Sucks". Why? Because the other wrestler is a big enough deal, to have his own chant against Cena. I know this sounds incredibly elementary but the whole psychology behind this isn't. To get dualing chants when Cena's name is but mentioned once, is remarkable in this era.

While there is a lot of truth to this now, the part that always gets overlooked is that it was not developed this way intentionally until much more recently.

I think there are far too many morons that like to trumpet this idiotic myth that the main reason Cena gets booed is that he plays a good guy on tv.