On Religion & Faith - On Atheism & Lack Thereof

[SalvIsWin]

As far as I know there hasn't been a thread dedicated to the discussion of religion and faith, and atheism and lack thereof in quite a while. There's been smaller discussions in a lot of different threads, and it tends to de-rail the original topic. Also, there have been a lot of new members since the last discussion in the section formerly known as the cigar lounge, so let us re-ignite the discussion that is all things God.

In taking a page from LSN's book I'm going to start off the original post with some questions to get things going. I'll try to list some questions for religious folks, some for non-believers, and some for people who just haven't decided.

Questions for the believer​

• What is your exact position on God & religion, and on Atheists?
• What is the reasoning for your personal belief?
• Hypothetically, what would it take for you to change your beliefs on God & your religion?
• What do you think is the most misunderstood thing about your religion, and/or your belief?

Questions for the atheist​

• What is your personal history with religion and atheism? In other words, why are you an atheist?
• Hypothetically, what would it take for you to change your disbelief in God & religion?
• What do you think is the most misunderstood thing about atheism or your own personal disbelief?
• Do you find it challenging to be honest with your atheism? Are you sometimes embarrassed or afraid to admit it?

Questions for the person who just hasn't decided​

• What is holding you back from being one side of the discussion instead of the other?
• What is your personal history with religion and/or disbelief?
• What would it take from the believer side, and what would it take from the disbeliever side to convince you of their position?

Question for everyone​

• What is one thing that you really want people to know about your belief and/or position?

----------------------



I'll answer the last question to start:

This is more loosely related to religion, but I think it's important and I wish everyone understood this: Evolution isn't supposed to explain the beginnings of the universe. Too many times I hear the argument that evolution can't explain how everything got here, so it's a shitty theory. Gravity also can't explain how everything got here, but I doubt highly that it would be called a shitty theory. Evolution explains how life got from its origin to where it is now, and nothing further, it does not attempt to explain the origins of the universe, that's the big bang theory and although believers of evolution typically put some stock into the big bang theory, it's not the same thing.

 

[Remy LaCroix]

Questions for the atheist​

• What is your personal history with religion and atheism? In other words, why are you an atheist?

At eight-years old I was forced to attend a Pentecostal church. We'd attend church every Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday and Sunday twice; sometimes spending the whole Sunday at church instead of going back home. One Friday evening we attended church for some odd reason and the pastor spent the whole night preaching till morning -- we left church just in time for me to stay up and watch Saturday morning cartoons! That lifestyle was brutal for a kid whose family moved all over the city twice a year during elementary school years.

I hated going to church the moment I first set foot inside. A couple of years later I started disliking Christianity and began doubting the idea of attending church. Some of the bullshit the pastor's wife said regarding Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh! was utter crap and only added fuel to the fire.

Eventually we stopped attending church and I couldn't have spent my mid-to-late teens any happier. It was during the next few years that I started thinking critically about religion, spirituality, and philosophy. My best friend at the time owned a copy of the LaVeyan Satanic Bible and I skimmed through it. It eventually became the blueprint for ideals I adopted later in life such as nihilism, existentialism, pantheism, humanism, and animism. It's a never-ending philosophical search for me.

Questions for the atheist​

• Hypothetically, what would it take for you to change your disbelief in God & religion?

Nothing short of promising me dominion over all nations of the world. In all seriousness, to put it bluntly I believe Christianity is a poison to cultures and civilizations and is only good for brainwashing, so never. I can say the same for other similar religions.

Questions for the atheist​

• What do you think is the most misunderstood thing about atheism or your own personal disbelief?

I make the best out of everything life throws at me instead of relying on a coping mechanism to bring me better days. There must be more to life than "heaven and hell". I also embrace nature and accept humanity for what it is.

Questions for the atheist​

• Do you find it challenging to be honest with your atheism? Are you sometimes embarrassed or afraid to admit it?

I'm not an atheist per se. The only issues I come across are when I discover other outlooks and attempt to create my own spin on them to fit with my own ideals that I truly believe in. My work is never done.

Question for everyone​

• What is one thing that you really want people to know about your belief and/or position?

Christian theocons piss me off. Morality is overrated. Fear mongering Christians are pure evil.

 

[SalvIsWin]

I'll have to reply to your post when I have some time, Doppel. Are there any religious folks that would want to reply to what Doppel said? Defend it against the accusation of being a poison?

 

[iwinulose]

Questions for the atheist​

What is your personal history with religion and atheism? In other words, why are you an atheist?
-i simply dont feel that there is any proof that god/jeseus/the devil are real. i simply dont see how its possible. i mean, looking back through history, religeon has had several negative effects, i mean technology should be several years ahead but no cause christians were afraid of change (angering god), look how many wars have been fought cause of religeon. look how many lives have been lost. and for what? its stupid.

Hypothetically, what would it take for you to change your disbelief in God & religion?
-well not to set the standards to high but ill believe it when i see it. i mean why would someone want to be so heavily worshipped? what a large ego he has. more importantly why would he let the stuff that has happened because of religeon take place? i mean if he could create everything why let it all be destroyed over himself? kinda selffish dont you tink?

What do you think is the most misunderstood thing about atheism or your own personal disbelief?
-that everyone who is are atheist's are evil, ignorrant, and narrow minded. freedom of speech, dont have to do something or say something just because everyone else does it. yet all these hardcore religeous folk say all this crap about athiests and its so aggravating how narrow minded they can be.

Do you find it challenging to be honest with your atheism? Are you sometimes embarrassed or afraid to admit it?
-hell no. ill say it to anyone and everyone, course i also tell them that it doesnt mean that im iggnorrant of other peoples views. i simply dont believe that there is an all mighty god.

What is one thing that you really want people to know about your belief and/or position?
-simply that no i dont believe in god, please dont try to force it upon me as it will only get you a negative response. not out to offend others or say they are wrong but not will to let them walk all over me because of it.

 

[SalvIsWin]

I'm hesitant to comment in depth on Doppelganger or iwinulose's posts because I want to see if any one with a religious perspective is interested in posting. I would say though that my own thoughts are somewhat in line with what you're both saying.

 

[One Punch Doug Crashin]

What is your exact position on God & religion, and on Atheists?


My opinion is that God does exist. I have seen the face of the Lord but I can't say anything to prove that I'm telling the truth. It's impossible to do unless people experiences it for themselves. Religion has a purpose. To bring people together but it has outlived it's purpose unfortunately. Too many priests, rabbis, imams are corrupt to salvage organized religion. Atheism to me just means they lost their way. Sooner or later they will be brought back through some out of body experience. Karma has a funny way of bringing things full circle.


What is the reasoning for your personal belief?


My Grandfather is a Rabbi and has instilled that in me. However, I have worked with the Archangels (or Saints) and that increased my believe that He exists. I also have experienced the Realm of Judgement not once, BUT TWICE in my life to say it does exist.

Hypothetically, what would it take for you to change your beliefs on God & your religion?


Absolutely nothing. I have experienced through Meditation too much to deny His existence. Nor can I deny the existence of religion.



What do you think is the most misunderstood thing about your religion, and/or your belief?


Heh, that's a really open-ended question. I could go on-and-on about how people have misjudged the Jews for milenia.



What is one thing that you really want people to know about your belief and/or position?


Take a few minutes to read about the religion or belief you brought up despising. Someday you'll understand that it's all for naught. Nobody should be bigoted.

 

[Lee]

What is your exact position on God & religion, and on Atheists?

I believe in God, I am a Christian. As a whole I'm not a fan of religion as it tends to miss the point. Atheists annoy the hell out of me because why should it bother what I believe in? Are they really that upset that I believe in God?

What is the reasoning for your personal belief?

I became a christian aged 16 after umming and aaahing about it. A christian friend of mine said "if I had a bag with a million pounds in you'd take it even if you couldn't look in the bag, right?" That's when it clicked with me, either there is a God or there's not. If there's not and I belive in Him then really it makes no difference but if I don't belive in Him and there is then that could pose a problem.

Hypothetically, what would it take for you to change your beliefs on God & your religion?

If we discovered intelligent life.

What do you think is the most misunderstood thing about your religion, and/or your belief?

That we're all nutcases who hate gays, sex before marriage and are hypocritical. Biblcally speaking all of these are up for debate but from my experience the thing that puts people of Christianity is not evidence or lack of evidence on both sides but people in the name of religion missing the point (right wing America, rapist Catholic priests, the crusades etc. etc.).

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

I'm agnostic:

Wikipedia:
Agnosticism is the view that the truth value of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable

Whilst I regard myself reasonably intelligent, even if I had the greatest intelligence ever, I would not be able to say hand on heart that one religion is 'right' ahead of any other. Every religion has certified geniuses that can 'prove' the legitimacy of their faith, but by definition they all cannot be right. I am not atheist (I believe that there is a greater power) and I do believe in the big bang and evolution.

My religious upbringing was extensive, I was raised Presbyterian and that included Sunday School / Bible Class followed by the morning service as well as youth clubs like the Boys Brigade and one based in the cellar of the church on a Saturday night.

For me religion is generally a regional thing, with all the positives and negatives that entails - Christianity in North America and Europe and Islam in the Middle East for two. When you meet someone for the first time and ask them where they're from, you can usually make a very good assertion to their religious beliefs. To me, this does weaken every claim that 'my' religion is right and yours is wrong because, chances are, should you have had their raising, you would be singing from their hymn sheet.

I live my life to be the best person I can be. Some things described to me as sins are laughable (premarital sex and homosexuality for two) and ideas like the thought is equal to the deed and a minor sin = major sin really flabbergast my moral compass. However; I believe in respect, giving, honoring your parents and elders, the sanctity of relationships and the ilk.

 

[SalvIsWin]

I'm agnostic

Interesting thing on agnosticism, if someone asked you, "What is your belief on God?" And you replied, "Agnostic" - technically that's not answering their question. What I mean is, most atheists would identify as being agnostic, I don't think many atheists would claim to know that God doesn't exist, they simply don't think it's true and that there isn't any evidence to suggest so - that would be an agnostic atheist. It sounds like you're an agnostic-theist, because you said you believe in a higher power, you just don't think it's knowable.

Further question for Christians:

What stock do you put into the Old Testament? Not true? Completely true? An interpretation of the truth?​

 

[Chess]

What is your exact position on God & religion, and on Atheists?
I believe God exists, I believe he created everything and died to save us and forgive us for all our sins. As for Atheists, I wish they would not judge people with beliefs and mock them simply because they believe something that they do not. As I have mentioned before on these forums everything is a matter of faith. I faith that God exists, Athiests hold their faith in the non existence of God or they have faith that a fluke occurance of perfection happened in the past. Believing in God or a scientific theory, it takes faith in the individual as nothing can be proven either way.


What is the reasoning for your personal belief?

For me it is a couple of things. I am the son of a Baptist Minister so I was raised with the beliefs and ideals of Christianity. This gave me knowledge of Christianity and what it entails, this however did not make me a believer. The thing I like about Baptists is the fact that we decide when we are old enough whether we agree with what we are being told or not. We do not simply get a drop of water put on our head as a baby and then declare ourselves Christians. There are many people who call themselves Christians simply because they were christened as a baby yet have no understanding of what a Christian is or how they should act.
Although I was lucky enough to have the knowledge of Christianity from a young age I did not start believing until I was around 26. Around this time I was struggling with motivation, I felt lost after a long term relationship ended and I was unhappy in life in general. I prayed many times to try and get myself sorted out but nothing happened so I would curse at God for how things were going. I guess the reasons were because I was simply using God for my own personal gains. Anyway after discussing things with my father I decided to try and go back to church, read the bible and be a better person in general with the hope that I found God.

I cannot put my finger on the exact point in time when I started believing. It could have been when my little brother survived his Brain Tumour, it could have been when I met the love of my life and my now wife, it could have been when I was walking to the shops for some cigarettes, I just do not know, but what I do know is that God is a part of my life and looks after me and helps guide me when I start to stray in my ways. For me I just feel God's existence and I know he exists.

Hypothetically, what would it take for you to change your beliefs on God & your religion?

Unlike Lee, finding out about aliens existence would change nothing. I cannot put my finger on a passage in the bible that disputes the existence of other intelligent beings, if they do exist (I think they do) then they are just part of Gods creation, he did create the entire universe after all.

I do not think anything will change my mind that is unless I see Ganesh or Vishnu wandering the streets


What do you think is the most misunderstood thing about your religion, and/or your belief?


For me it would be this. I think nearly all religions have guidelines or lets say a ticklist of things that will get you to heaven. For Christians all you have to do is to believe in God/Jesus and you will be saved. Yes we need to try and be good and what not but in the end being good will not get you to heaven, believing will.

Originally Posted by Doug Crashin
However, I have worked with the Archangels (or Saints) and that increased my believe that He exists.

Could you expand on this as it sounds interesting. Are there Archangels wandering around on earth that we know of?

 

[Nate DaMac]

Questions for the atheist
What is your personal history with religion and atheism? In other words, why are you an atheist?

I'm pretty sure it was a natural progression from childhood to adulthood. I learned that the Easter Bunny, Santa Clause, and the Tooth Fairy weren't real so to me, it was just as plausible to assume that God wasn't real.

Hypothetically, what would it take for you to change your disbelief in God & religion?

God himself, meeting me face to face with 2 forms of identification.

What do you think is the most misunderstood thing about atheism or your own personal disbelief?

The most frequently annoying thing about me being Atheist is having to deal with Christians telling me why I should believe. So, I suppose the biggest misunderstanding is that people tend to think that I give a damn what they believe. I'm not anti-religious, I just don't like anyone who thinks that they're beliefs are in any way superior to others, those people should be ridiculed and I have no problem doing it.

Do you find it challenging to be honest with your atheism? Are you sometimes embarrassed or afraid to admit it?

Not even a little bit. However, I rarely just come out with it without provocation. This thread is one of I believe 2 religious threads I've ever replied to on this site and besides those, I don't think I've ever just came out and said, "I don't believe in God." I'm respectful to those around me if they earn it, both on the internet and in real life.

I have no shame in my beliefs and I'll tell anyone who asks, but I never go out of my way to do it.

Question for everyone
What is one thing that you really want people to know about your belief and/or position?

It's quite simple, I don't care what you believe, I don't care if you disagree my beliefs. But if you voice it, I'm probably going to hurt your feelings.

 

[HBK-aholic]

What is your exact position on God & religion, and on Atheists?

I believe in God, I am a Christian. As a whole I'm not a fan of religion as it tends to miss the point. Atheists annoy the hell out of me because why should it bother what I believe in? Are they really that upset that I believe in God?

What is the reasoning for your personal belief?

I became a christian aged 16 after umming and aaahing about it. A christian friend of mine said "if I had a bag with a million pounds in you'd take it even if you couldn't look in the bag, right?" That's when it clicked with me, either there is a God or there's not. If there's not and I belive in Him then really it makes no difference but if I don't belive in Him and there is then that could pose a problem.

Hypothetically, what would it take for you to change your beliefs on God & your religion?

If we discovered intelligent life.

What do you think is the most misunderstood thing about your religion, and/or your belief?

That we're all nutcases who hate gays, sex before marriage and are hypocritical. Biblcally speaking all of these are up for debate but from my experience the thing that puts people of Christianity is not evidence or lack of evidence on both sides but people in the name of religion missing the point (right wing America, rapist Catholic priests, the crusades etc. etc.).

Lee, this post is so hypocritical. You complain in the last question that Christians are misunderstood by prejudiced people, who believe you're all 'nutcases', but a few sentences earlier you say athiests 'annoy the hell out of you' because they care what you believe in when they shouldn't? Why is it okay for you to judge and misunderstand athiesm when you hate that people judge and misunderstand you and your belief system?

People of any and every belief system should just leave others to believe what they like as long as those beliefs aren't harmful to others. What's needed more than anything in this world is respect and understanding for each other, regardless of belief system - not judging each other due to a stupid label with so many different variations (Of Christian, of Muslim, of Athiest, etc.) that the actual title means little.

 

[Remix]

What is your personal history with religion and atheism? In other words, why are you an atheist?

Grew up in a christian household, went to Sunday school and church. In my teens I basically concluded that there's no evidence for the existance of god, plenty of evidence that there wasn't a need for god I stopped believing
.

Hypothetically, what would it take for you to change your disbelief in God & religion?

Evidence that he exists.

What do you think is the most misunderstood thing about atheism or your own personal disbelief?

The science.

Do you find it challenging to be honest with your atheism? Are you sometimes embarrassed or afraid to admit it?

No. I try hard not to be a cunt about it.

What is one thing that you really want people to know about your belief and/or position?

Nothing. Believe what you want. But, if you're going to argue with the science understand what you're talking about first.

 

[SalvIsWin]

I've read everyone's response, and besides the follow-up question I've posed to Jews/Christians about the stories of the old testament (Basically, what do you think of the old testament - rubbish, truth, interpretation that's been muddled, etc.) I have a few comments to make.

Heh, that's a really open-ended question. I could go on-and-on about how people have misjudged the Jews for milenia.

The Christian old testament and Jewish Tanakh share a lot of the same stories, or at least the same inspiration, however a lot of modern day Christian sects don't put much stock into the old testament, most of the focus is the new testament. Since the Jewish religion doesn't have an 'updated' Tanakh in the way that the Christians have the new and old testament - do you have any specific feelings on the way some Christian sects dismiss the old testament, considering at least a portion of that is very, very similar to your Hebrew Bible?

If there's not and I belive in Him then really it makes no difference but if I don't belive in Him and there is then that could pose a problem.

This is called Pascal's Wager, that the reward for believing in God, and then God turning out to be real is infinite (infinite time in heaven), whereas the risk is zero. Also, the risk for not believing in God is infinite (if you're wrong, infinite time in hell), whereas there theoretically isn't really a tangible 'reward' for if you didn't believe in God and he turned out not to be real.

This seems like a pretty logical and rational way of thinking about it, but here's a question: By believing in the Christian God because of the possible risk associated with not believing, shouldn't you also choose to believe in Allah, Buddha, and all the other God's that have some sort of reward/penalty system in place? No matter what you do, you're at least at risk with one of the possible God's, right? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
How do you reason with that? The supposed nature of, "Not believing in God seems like a risk not worth taking" sounds logical, but it tells you nothing about which religion to believe in.

. I faith that God exists, Athiests hold their faith in the non existence of God or they have faith that a fluke occurance of perfection happened in the past. Believing in God or a scientific theory, it takes faith in the individual as nothing can be proven either way.

I wanted to correct this because technically atheists don't have faith or belief, we have disbelief. In anything that is said to be true, the default position is no belief until there is reason to believe, so it's really not correct to say that an atheist has faith or belief - an atheist doesn't have to provide proof that what you're saying isn't true, you have to do that, it's your onus of responsibility for claiming something.

Also, most atheists I think would agree that God is currently unknowable, possible always unknowable. I don't claim to know God doesn't exist, it's a possibility that he does, and it's a possibility that he doesn't. I'm claiming that without any evidence or reason to believe, the likelihood of it being true remains very low. The probability as far as I am concerned is quite low. If I claimed leprechauns were real, you would probably think the chances of it being true are low, until I provided proof, then you would start to slowly think OK maybe it is. Same idea.

 

[One Punch Doug Crashin]

I've read everyone's response, and besides the follow-up question I've posed to Jews/Christians about the stories of the old testament (Basically, what do you think of the old testament - rubbish, truth, interpretation that's been muddled, etc.) I have a few comments to make.



The Christian old testament and Jewish Tanakh share a lot of the same stories, or at least the same inspiration, however a lot of modern day Christian sects don't put much stock into the old testament, most of the focus is the new testament. Since the Jewish religion doesn't have an 'updated' Tanakh in the way that the Christians have the new and old testament - do you have any specific feelings on the way some Christian sects dismiss the old testament, considering at least a portion of that is very, very similar to your Hebrew Bible?




This is called Pascal's Wager, that the reward for believing in God, and then God turning out to be real is infinite (infinite time in heaven), whereas the risk is zero. Also, the risk for not believing in God is infinite (if you're wrong, infinite time in hell), whereas there theoretically isn't really a tangible 'reward' for if you didn't believe in God and he turned out not to be real.

This seems like a pretty logical and rational way of thinking about it, but here's a question: By believing in the Christian God because of the possible risk associated with not believing, shouldn't you also choose to believe in Allah, Buddha, and all the other God's that have some sort of reward/penalty system in place? No matter what you do, you're at least at risk with one of the possible God's, right? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
How do you reason with that? The supposed nature of, "Not believing in God seems like a risk not worth taking" sounds logical, but it tells you nothing about which religion to believe in.




I wanted to correct this because technically atheists don't have faith or belief, we have disbelief. In anything that is said to be true, the default position is no belief until there is reason to believe, so it's really not correct to say that an atheist has faith or belief - an atheist doesn't have to provide proof that what you're saying isn't true, you have to do that, it's your onus of responsibility for claiming something.

Also, most atheists I think would agree that God is currently unknowable, possible always unknowable. I don't claim to know God doesn't exist, it's a possibility that he does, and it's a possibility that he doesn't. I'm claiming that without any evidence or reason to believe, the likelihood of it being true remains very low. The probability as far as I am concerned is quite low. If I claimed leprechauns were real, you would probably think the chances of it being true are low, until I provided proof, then you would start to slowly think OK maybe it is. Same idea.

I don't puch much stock in the biblical stories. However, through my meditations the deities that I speak to are exactly like those in scriptures. It does pay to pay attention to the stories. However exhilarated they are.

 

[One Punch Doug Crashin]

Could you expand on this as it sounds interesting. Are there Archangels wandering around on earth that we know of?

Alright, the archangels do not wander so to speak. When you call them through prayer, they will help. There are, however, certain people that have permanent ties to them like myself. It is through them that they converse with, and pretty much just socialize. They are the will of God so if you do invoke them please be respectful.

 

[H33LTurn]

What is your exact position on God & religion, and on Atheists?
So far I'm a non denominational Christian. I dont view the bible or religion as an instruction manual, I see it as a philisophy. You have to live through it, it has to connect with your own personal morals and ideas for you to understand it. My morals coincide with the ones in the bible so I've got that down.

What is the reasoning for your personal belief?
I was raised Catholic and always stayed with the church until I started getting down on myself and blaming my problems on God instead of looking for the answer to my problems. I went down a wrong path spiritually, I felt like a spiritual sell out but was convinced that leading this bad lifestyle was going to get me the things I wanted. Needless to say that abandoning my religion as well as doing someone else wrong convinced God that it was time to teach me a lesson. I became very ill and started running into shows on TV like Joel Osteen and one of my close friends began to embrace God so I did the same. Sure my faith weakened but my breakdowns have only lead me to believe that God is the only thing thats guaranteed to me in this life and that I live a more productive and enlightened life on God's side.

Hypothetically, what would it take for you to change your beliefs on God & your religion?
Nothing, I've seen God's word come into action. When I wanted an authority figure to change their mind but couldn't influence them if I tried I did like the Bible says and left them alone to do what they thought was best and again I got what I wanted. I've seen someone get seriously injured after doing me wrong. And like I said before, it works for me. The law of God to me is 10x more fair than any law a man could make and it does bring into light why some people are misfortunate.

What do you think is the most misunderstood thing about your religion, and/or your belief?
When atheists want to make an argument against God they'll use examples like people suffering to prove that God "doesnt care". Theres no promise in the Bible that this life will be enjoyable in any way shape of form. Those rich people that we envy so much, the bible says it itself, they will have great difficulty making it into heaven (makes sense, doesnt it? Rich ppl do screwed up things to get the money they have). But what touched me the most was 1 Peter 1:7

"These trials will show that your faith is genuine. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold--though your faith is far more precious than mere gold. So when your faith remains strong through many trials, it will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus Christ is revealed to the whole world"

Lets face it, a lot of us are raised in a religious household, but remaining faithful is a hard task. This part does away with the thought that God is cruel because it shows that we are suffering now to get something better in return. A lot of people paint a bad picture of God when in fact its us that are cruel. God isnt physically here, but we have millionares here on earth so dont blame god for poverty, disease, pain, when its our own greed that enslaves people.


The Old Testament
Truth. Theres no reason for me to deny it. The problem is when people try to interpret it. You have to look at historical backgrounds when you think of things like homosexuality, eating certain things, wearing certain things. They were used to distinguish Christian/jew tribes from other pagan tribes. Orgies and gay sex were used to worship certain greek gods which is why in my understanding that the rule is there. Its also mentions not to give up your kids to Molech. Molech was a statue people used to place babies on until they burned to death as offerings to that "god". Its very clear the rules outlined in the old testament were to prove the difference between the two religious groups. But as peter or paul, I forget which one said it, we're no longer under the law which means we dont need to follow rituals to prove that we're different since Jesus's sacrifice is the ultimate proof that Christianity is different from the other belief systems. Not only does the Bible say that, but it also says that if you're trying to satisfy all of those old laws (like the goody toe shoes arrogant Christians out there) just for the sake of it then you're ignoring Jesus's gift to us. Jesus said to follow HIS commandment and believe in him and that would result in going to heaven.

 

[HBK-aholic]

What do you think is the most misunderstood thing about your religion, and/or your belief?
When atheists want to make an argument against God they'll use examples like people suffering to prove that God "doesnt care". Theres no promise in the Bible that this life will be enjoyable in any way shape of form. Those rich people that we envy so much, the bible says it itself, they will have great difficulty making it into heaven (makes sense, doesnt it? Rich ppl do screwed up things to get the money they have). But what touched me the most was 1 Peter 1:7

"These trials will show that your faith is genuine. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold--though your faith is far more precious than mere gold. So when your faith remains strong through many trials, it will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus Christ is revealed to the whole world"

Lets face it, a lot of us are raised in a religious household, but remaining faithful is a hard task. This part does away with the thought that God is cruel because it shows that we are suffering now to get something better in return. A lot of people paint a bad picture of God when in fact its us that are cruel. God isnt physically here, but we have millionares here on earth so dont blame god for poverty, disease, pain, when its our own greed that enslaves people.

This right here is the reason I can't commit to saying there is a 'God', and why I'm agnostic at best. There's a case to be made for free will, but then there's a case that an all loving, all powerful God would not allow the rape and murder of a young child, the aggressive cancer of children from any walk of life, the stroke/assault of a person so full of life etc. Working in a hospital, I see cases like these every single day. I still cry when one of my patients passes away, especially when it's the younger children. Don't give me any bullshit about God's test when someone, especially a child, is killed in such inhumane ways. Don't tell me a God who is supposedly the most amazing concept in the world could sit back and allow people to feel the pain of assaults, violent or sexual. If God causes rape and murder as a 'test' to the people he supposedly loves, I'm really not sure it's the type of deity I want to follow.

 

[Sparky]

What is your personal history with religion and atheism? In other words, why are you an atheist?

I guess I was raised up to not believe. Mum didn't want me to believe and she didn't believe because of my father. you see he went nuts and thought he was god. he still 23 years later thinks he is god. Mum didn't want me around that as a kid incase he went crazy. and then with all the bad stuff that has happend to me, and the rest of the world, it's just hard to trust the fact that it happens because one being wants it to.

Hypothetically, what would it take for you to change your disbelief in God & religion?

I guess the only way is to see God in real life, and have him prove it someway that couldn't be bluffed.

What do you think is the most misunderstood thing about atheism or your own personal disbelief?

No idea. I don't think that I'm an athiest, I don't believe in god that's it. everyone else is allowed to think he exists, I just don't. I don't see there's a name to it.

Do you find it challenging to be honest with your atheism? Are you sometimes embarrassed or afraid to admit it?

Why would I be? I don't deny that I don't believe I just don't talk about it.


I do have an explanation on what I believe happens in the afterlife though. Just can't be bothered making a thread on it.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Interesting thing on agnosticism, if someone asked you, "What is your belief on God?" And you replied, "Agnostic" - technically that's not answering their question. What I mean is, most atheists would identify as being agnostic, I don't think many atheists would claim to know that God doesn't exist, they simply don't think it's true and that there isn't any evidence to suggest so - that would be an agnostic atheist. It sounds like you're an agnostic-theist, because you said you believe in a higher power, you just don't think it's knowable.

I would never answer with such a closed answer to such an open question though. Brief details in my previous response would be included.

Yes, I do fall in the agnostic-theist bracket because there are things that have happened in the history of mankind and recorded in religious texts that cannot be explained by science - occurrences that do refute scientific theory, if only briefly in most cases. Does this make science wrong? Of course not, but it does indicate that a higher power might be reminding us that it has carte blanche over such things. An interesting point about organised religion is raised here though, for bodies that are generally against scientific reasoning, they are very quick to use scientific proof when it proves that something that is recorded in their texts is provided.

 

[SalvIsWin]

Yes, I do fall in the agnostic-theist bracket because there are things that have happened in the history of mankind and recorded in religious texts that cannot be explained by science - occurrences that do refute scientific theory, if only briefly in most cases. Does this make science wrong? Of course not, but it does indicate that a higher power might be reminding us that it has carte blanche over such things.

Can you elaborate? Do you mean, there are things such as the origin of life that science cannot explain, but religion does explain it? Or do you mean there are things that science just won't be able to explain - like it's outside of it's possible scope?

What occurrences are there that refute science? I can't think of a single example. Are you talking about miracles? Occurrences where we can't explain exactly what happened?

 

[H33LTurn]

This right here is the reason I can't commit to saying there is a 'God', and why I'm agnostic at best. There's a case to be made for free will, but then there's a case that an all loving, all powerful God would not allow the rape and murder of a young child, the aggressive cancer of children from any walk of life, the stroke/assault of a person so full of life etc. Working in a hospital, I see cases like these every single day. I still cry when one of my patients passes away, especially when it's the younger children. Don't give me any bullshit about God's test when someone, especially a child, is killed in such inhumane ways. Don't tell me a God who is supposedly the most amazing concept in the world could sit back and allow people to feel the pain of assaults, violent or sexual. If God causes rape and murder as a 'test' to the people he supposedly loves, I'm really not sure it's the type of deity I want to follow.

But why blame God. If God stopped one rape, just one, it would show favoritism and he would therefore have to stop all rapes, and from that all ills, and there really wouldnt be any reason to be a good person anymore since earth would be like heaven. Death wouldnt exist because thats another thing that makes people sad. Its such an immature way to look at life, "oh I suffer sometimes and therefore God owes me something". Try to look at things from a logical standpoint. If you dislike rape, you have to go out there and inform people on why its wrong. You need to raise your kids in such a way that they respect the personal space of others. If you dislike children getting cancer you have to eliminate the environmental factors that cause cancer because lets face it, years ago every other kid didnt have cancer. We dont take care of this world, we dont take care of ourselves, and then when things dont work out we blame God, the only one whos absent when all of this is going on. Its like blaming a kid who didnt show up for class for the curse word written on the board. It makes no sense. God is merely the supplier of life and a friend. Here are two examples. If I gave you a knife as a present, is it my fault if you stab someone with it? Its not God's fault if we use the gifts he gave us for something negative. Likewise, if we were friends and you were going through a rough time and you never call me and ask for my help, then blame me for "not caring" am I a bad person? Some people treat God as the enemy and never call on him to help them, then they want to blame God for "not being there for them". A friend cant stop someone from raping you, but they can get you through a rough time if you let them. If God were to stop rape, he would violate the free will of the rapist. If God were to get rid of cancer, he would violate the free will of the people responsible for the environmental factors that bring carcinogens into our everyday lives.

 

[HBK-aholic]

But why blame God.

I don't blame 'God' for them happening, rather I don't understand why they should happen, if there's someone out there who knows all, sees all and loves all yet allows such horrible things.

If God stopped one rape, just one, it would show favoritism and he would therefore have to stop all rapes, and from that all ills, and there really wouldnt be any reason to be a good person anymore since earth would be like heaven.

So the only reason to be a good person is to go to heaven? That's such an ignorant way of thinking. Plenty of people who don't believe in an afterlife are good people for a whole host of reasons, none of which involve having a great place to go 'after'.

Death wouldnt exist because thats another thing that makes people sad. Its such an immature way to look at life, "oh I suffer sometimes and therefore God owes me something".

The fact you call my way of thinking immature is laughable. You can't even distinguish between evil in the world - murder, cancer etc. and sadness. And I'm glad you see some of the worst horrors of the world as 'suffering sometimes'. You have no idea what some people have had to go through. And I didn't say God OWED them anything at all - I haven't even said I believe in him.

Try to look at things from a logical standpoint. If you dislike rape, you have to go out there and inform people on why its wrong.You need to raise your kids in such a way that they respect the personal space of others. If you dislike children getting cancer you have to eliminate the environmental factors that cause cancer because lets face it, years ago every other kid didnt have cancer. We dont take care of this world, we dont take care of ourselves, and then when things dont work out we blame God, the only one whos absent when all of this is going on. Its like blaming a kid who didnt show up for class for the curse word written on the board. It makes no sense. God is merely the supplier of life and a friend. Here are two examples. If I gave you a knife as a present, is it my fault if you stab someone with it? Its not God's fault if we use the gifts he gave us for something negative. Likewise, if we were friends and you were going through a rough time and you never call me and ask for my help, then blame me for "not caring" am I a bad person?

Except that I haven't blamed God for anything happening, only for his lack of intervention, if he does exist. I don't know about you, but I find it very difficult to worship someone who could stand by and allow such awful things to 'test' innocent people - even those who follow his every word.

Some people treat God as the enemy and never call on him to help them, then they want to blame God for "not being there for them". A friend cant stop someone from raping you, but they can get you through a rough time if you let them. If God were to stop rape, he would violate the free will of the rapist. If God were to get rid of cancer, he would violate the free will of the people responsible for the environmental factors that bring carcinogens into our everyday lives.

I thought the purpose of those things was to test his followers, not because everyone has free will? And if the latter is true, to God, the 'free will' of a murderer is more important than saving his good followers/people from a lifetime of pain and hurt? Beginning to sound like a 'Human' Rights lawyer..

 

[SalvIsWin]

The Old Testament
Truth. Theres no reason for me to deny it. The problem is when people try to interpret it. You have to look at historical backgrounds when you think of things like homosexuality, eating certain things, wearing certain things. They were used to distinguish Christian/jew tribes from other pagan tribes. Orgies and gay sex were used to worship certain greek gods which is why in my understanding that the rule is there. Its also mentions not to give up your kids to Molech. Molech was a statue people used to place babies on until they burned to death as offerings to that "god". Its very clear the rules outlined in the old testament were to prove the difference between the two religious groups. But as peter or paul, I forget which one said it, we're no longer under the law which means we dont need to follow rituals to prove that we're different since Jesus's sacrifice is the ultimate proof that Christianity is different from the other belief systems. Not only does the Bible say that, but it also says that if you're trying to satisfy all of those old laws (like the goody toe shoes arrogant Christians out there) just for the sake of it then you're ignoring Jesus's gift to us. Jesus said to follow HIS commandment and believe in him and that would result in going to heaven.

What about the stories though: the great flood, tower of babel, genesis' account of Adam & Eve - truth, interpretation, what?

 

[H33LTurn]

I don't blame 'God' for them happening, rather I don't understand why they should happen, if there's someone out there who knows all, sees all and loves all yet allows such horrible things.

So the only reason to be a good person is to go to heaven? That's such an ignorant way of thinking. Plenty of people who don't believe in an afterlife are good people for a whole host of reasons, none of which involve having a great place to go 'after'.

Its not the "only" reason but it should be a reason. Well actually its a reward. Its like doing real good in high school but then not going to college. You're still smart and can still get a job, but you wont get a good job. If you're a good person people will mostly treat you right but you'll still be trapped by the limitations of this life. Heaven is like graduation, you get away from everything thats wrong in this world. Think about it, you sacrifice so much to be a good person, is it fair for others who didnt put that kind of effort to get the same reward? Heaven is a reward for doing the right thing even when others werent doing it.

Except that I haven't blamed God for anything happening, only for his lack of intervention, if he does exist. I don't know about you, but I find it very difficult to worship someone who could stand by and allow such awful things to 'test' innocent people - even those who follow his every word.

Lets get a wordly example. You have two friends. You always buy stuff for friend A. You give him presents, go out with him, treat him right. But the one time you tell him you cant give him what he wants he walks out of your life. Friend B accepts it when you cant buy stuff for him but its ok because hes not in it for material things, hes in it for the friendship. Whos the better friend? Thats how God measures us. Theres a story about it in the book of Job. The devil told God that the only reason Job believes in him is because Job was prosperous. He had a lot, he didnt struggle through life. So God took everything away from him and he still believed. Hes testing the quality of the person. We judge people like that too.

I thought the purpose of those things was to test his followers, not because everyone has free will? And if the latter is true, to God, the 'free will' of a murderer is more important than saving his good followers/people from a lifetime of pain and hurt? Beginning to sound like a 'Human' Rights lawyer..

Free will and testing someone are the reasons people suffer. Just because God exists doesnt mean that everything thats wrong in the world should dissapear. Then we wouldnt be held accountable for what we've done to the world. Even an everyday person can be held accountable for poverty. You see those commercials on TV that only 2 quarters helps save a child in need. People still dont give to those organizations. Poor people drives people to do something good and donate. Sick people drive people to do something good and care for them. Suffering creates a sense of reality. You cant go around saying "why me" when there are others in your position.