Most Selfless Top Wrestler Ever

[HBsam31]

I gotta say Foley as well with Cena a close second. It seems like Foley has put over everyone. Rock, HHH, Egde, Orton, just to name a few. He only won a couple of championships, and you could really tell he wanted to give back. I have a feeling he will come back for one more big match and again put over a young talent.

 

[Wald]

Sidenote about everyone voting for Bret. I love Bret, but he's not exactly the most selfless. He definitely put talent over but he was extremely protective of his spot and did not want anyone to take it. He left WWFE after WM12 specifically to see them fail without him in the top spot. To pass the torch to HBK and then throw him under the bus like that is not exactly a selfless thing to do. He put over Owen but he never let Owen get too much sympathy that he would take Bret's spot. He didn't intend to get Austin super over in their match at WM13, he intended to be more over as a heel than Austin was as a face.

There are hundreds of times when Bret has selflessly put over talent (Rock, HHH, everyone at WCW), but he is not someone that I would consider the most selfless.

Sorry but I'm not getting your points here. He took Owen from a jobber role to the main event of Summerslam in under a year, purely by making him look great against him and giving him that win at WM 10. To put someone over doesn't mean you have to give up your spot for him, hell there was no way Owen was ready to be world champion at that point and no way Vince would have wanted him either. Bret made him with their feud.

And throwing HBK under the bus? I'm sorry but HBK was designated to be able to carry the company like Bret did. It's not Bret's fault that he wasn't up to the job is it? He put him over at Wrestlemania in a face vs face, WWF title match. After that it's up to Shawn to make his run a success. Hell I'd go so far as to say Bret leaving for a few months was better for Shawn, it gave him a chance to grab the top face spot.

And anyone who thinks Bret didn't make Austin in their feud...I actually don't know what to say to that really because it's absurd. You don't seem to get that making a wrestler and being selfless isn't about wins or losses. Bret lost a bunch of times in WCW, like you point out, but he didn't make anyone because he hadn't the spot in which to do so. You make a wrestler by making them look like your equal, whether you win or lose doesn't matter. To go by your criteria you could say that Flair barely made anyone in the NWA days, since he almost ways walked away with the title.

 

[Why Always Me]

Definetely The Rock.

Yes he is my favourite wrestler ever, but look at who he has put over when he was on top.

The Hurricane
Al Snow
The Holly
New Age Outlaws
Test
Stephanie McMahon

And putting over the bigger stars to give them a bigger rub

Chris Jericho (WCW Title)
Kurt Angle (WWF Title)
Brock Lesnar (Undisputed Title)
Goldberg

But the two biggest examples I see are his head to heads against The Undertaker (think he pinned him once in a handicap tag team match on Raw Is War in 1998) and once at No Way Out 2002, and then against Stone Cold, pinned him twice, Winner Takes All Survivor Series 2001 and WM19. I think the Stone Cold rivallary in particular in terms of matches won and lost is VERY lopsided in Austin's favour, Austin should of put Rock over in 1999 before he left, an unofficial passing of the torch if you will.

Honarble mentions to Mic Foley and Chris Jericho, remember Jericho losing to a very green John Cena a couple of times in 2002.

 

[Peoples_Champ]

Sorry but I'm not getting your points here.

I figured some Bret fan boys wouldn't get it. I'm more than happy to explain.

He took Owen from a jobber role to the main event of Summerslam in under a year, purely by making him look great against him and giving him that win at WM 10. To put someone over doesn't mean you have to give up your spot for him, hell there was no way Owen was ready to be world champion at that point and no way Vince would have wanted him either. Bret made him with their feud.

I didn't deny that Bret played a large role in putting over Owen. But it was VKM who gave Owen the push and Owen who did the promos. Bret sold like a champ, like he always does. But before their WM10 match, Bret wrote in his biography that he and Owen had scripted a match and then two days before the PPV they scrapped it because (his words, not mine): "Being Vince's top seller in merchandise was rewarding me with an extra $200,000 per year in royalties, so whatever I did, I had to be careful not to jeopardize that." Bret wanted to keep Owen heel, but at the same time, he wanted to get him over but keep him down enough so that Owen didn't challenge him for the top spot.

And throwing HBK under the bus? I'm sorry but HBK was designated to be able to carry the company like Bret did. It's not Bret's fault that he wasn't up to the job is it? He put him over at Wrestlemania in a face vs face, WWF title match. After that it's up to Shawn to make his run a success. Hell I'd go so far as to say Bret leaving for a few months was better for Shawn, it gave him a chance to grab the top face spot.

I'm not a Shawn Michaels fan by any means, but truth is truth - when Bret was champ, HBK worked every house show and put Bret over multiple times in 1992 and 1993. From cage matches to ladder matches to regular matches, Shawn put over Bret dozens of times at house shows. When Bret put over Shawn, which I'm not denying he did btw, he left for six months to "rest his face" but also to see WWF fall flat on their face. Again, he says it straight out in his biography. He wasn't happy with the direction to put HBK as champ and he made this petty move to show his displeasure. It is up to Shawn to make it work, along with Creative which pretty much dropped the ball on it, but having Bret Hart co-main event PPVs and Raw shows would have helped the business that Bret claimed to care about so much. Even in the Bret / HBK DVD, Shawn was quite upset that Bret had left while he was champ. Everyone backstage knew there was heat between the two because this was a petty move.

And anyone who thinks Bret didn't make Austin in their feud...I actually don't know what to say to that really because it's absurd. You don't seem to get that making a wrestler and being selfless isn't about wins or losses. Bret lost a bunch of times in WCW, like you point out, but he didn't make anyone because he hadn't the spot in which to do so. You make a wrestler by making them look like your equal, whether you win or lose doesn't matter. To go by your criteria you could say that Flair barely made anyone in the NWA days, since he almost ways walked away with the title.

Austin made himself, Bret definitely helped with the double face/heel turn, but Bret's idea in that was to keep himself #1. If he couldn't be the most over face, he would be the most hated heel. But Austin's rise to the top was unexpected by Bret and was something that he resented. Of course, at the time there were backstage politics that had started undermining Bret himself, but he wanted to be more over as a heel than Austin was as a face.

Again, I am a Bret fan and I love him dearly. He put over 100s of wrestlers in his career, especially as a jobber. But he was very protective of his top spot and didn't want to lose that to anyone. Not the epitome of a selfless wrestler.

 

[HBKperfect23]

Bret was a great, great technical wrestler. Bret was my favorite storyteller ever in the ring. Bret was the best wrestler from the best wrestling family in history. That being said he is far far from selfless.

Lets look at Brets Selfishness:
-Wont drop the IC title to Mountie at Royal Rumble. Doesnt think hes worthy so he drops it to him at a houseshow with a 104 degree fever (kayfabe)
-Wont drop the IC title to Shawn Michaels at Summerslam so he can drop it to his brother in law. Good idea? Absolutley, but its him getting his buddys over before another guy.
-Bitches and complains about dropping the belt to Backlund at Survivor Series 94 because of Backlunds age. He later said he regreted this and was happy to do it.
-Bitches and complains about dropping the belt to Shawn at WMXII because Hes been having really good matches with Bulldog, Taker, and Desil and thinks hes just "handing the belt over to Shawn"....whatever that means.
-Doesnt want to work with Steve at WMXIII because they have nothing to do. They just wrestled at Survivor Sereis
-Survvior Series 1997.....do we even have to go there.



Also Ive been sold on the Rock. His name never came to mind here orginally. I am going to add him to my list of Selfless Wrestlers. He did put over a lot of up and coming talent. He seems to be an easy guy to work with. I do think Cena should have went over at WMXXVIII but Im sure Rock just did what he was told at WM.

 

[The Brain]

-Wont drop the IC title to Mountie at Royal Rumble. Doesnt think hes worthy so he drops it to him at a houseshow with a 104 degree fever (kayfabe)

What are you talking about? The only reason The Mountie ever got the IC title was to hand it over to Piper. You should have been able to figure this out considering Mountie had the title for only two days. The whole thing was done to give Piper a title reign before leaving the company and to set up Bret vs. Piper at WM8.

-Wont drop the IC title to Shawn Michaels at Summerslam so he can drop it to his brother in law. Good idea? Absolutley, but its him getting his buddys over before another guy.

I think SummerSlam being held in front of over 80,000 crazed Bulldog fans in Wembly Stadium might have had something to do with that.

-Bitches and complains about dropping the belt to Backlund at Survivor Series 94 because of Backlunds age. He later said he regreted this and was happy to do it.

I've never heard of this but if it is true a case could be made for Bret's argument. Considering the WWF was in the middle of a new generation campaign and was critical of WCW for pushing aging stars I could see why Bret was not happy about dropping the title to Backlund. Not sure how unhappy he was about it in the first place though seeing as how he was taking a little time off to film Lonesome Dove.

-Bitches and complains about dropping the belt to Shawn at WMXII because Hes been having really good matches with Bulldog, Taker, and Desil and thinks hes just "handing the belt over to Shawn"....whatever that means.

I think it means he didn't think Shawn was ready to be the top guy. That was his opinion at the time. God forbid he express his opinion. He still dropped the title to Michaels so I don't see the problem.

-Doesnt want to work with Steve at WMXIII because they have nothing to do. They just wrestled at Survivor Sereis

He had a point. Bret just beat Austin at Survivor Series and the more logical mania opponent for him at the time was Michaels. He worked with Austin anyway and made him look like a million bucks.

I'm not going to defend Bret as the most selfless guy by any means but I don't think your points in this post are very valid. I'm all for a performer doing what the booker tells him to do but there isn't any reason the performer shouldn't be able to express his opinion.

 

[HBKperfect23]

My points arent valid?

Mountie: check out his shoot.

Bulldog: I said it was a good idea. But he still politiced to get the title on his brother in law.

Backlund: I heard it from Brets mouth (RF Shoot) Backlund was more then capable of carrying the ball here. He was a great heel.

Shawn: Hes afraid of losing his spot to him. Listen to Bret talk about him "hes going to be the guy to try and take my spot" He was a transistional 4 month champion and he didnt think that was good enough.

Austin: You critize what I say about Bulldog at Summerslam 1992 because it worked out but say Bret had a point about WMXIII with Austin? Didnt that work out too?

 

[The Brain]

My points arent valid?

Not really.

Mountie: check out his shoot.

Provide a link for me and I will. Please explain why Piper took the title off Mountie at the Rumble if Mountie was supposed to win the title there.

Bulldog: I said it was a good idea. But he still politiced to get the title on his brother in law.

How do you know that? Doesn't SummerSlam being in England make Bulldog the logical opponent. Even if HBK was discussed as an original opponent and Bret suggested Bulldog (not sure that happened), what's wrong with that? It was a better idea.

Backlund: I heard it from Brets mouth (RF Shoot) Backlund was more then capable of carrying the ball here. He was a great heel.

So what. Bret didn't think Backlund was the right choice and he said so. He still dropped the belt to him.

Austin: You critize what I say about Bulldog at Summerslam 1992 because it worked out but say Bret had a point about WMXIII with Austin? Didnt that work out too?

He did have a point about Austin. Then he worked with Austin anyway and put forth his best effort and made Austin a star. What a dick huh?

Shawn: Hes afraid of losing his spot to him. Listen to Bret talk about him "hes going to be the guy to try and take my spot" He was a transistional 4 month champion and he didnt think that was good enough.

I am definitely not going to say Bret was the most selfless wrestler. He wanted to protect his spot and there is absolutley nothing wrong with that. So we actually do agree about this subject. I just think your argument has major holes.

As far as who is the most selfless, off the top of my head Mick Foley comes to mind. He always just seemed happy to be a wrestler and gave everything his best effort regardless of his spot on the card. Win or lose it didn't matter. Foley always did his best to put on a good show.

 

[Wald]

I didn't deny that Bret played a large role in putting over Owen. But it was VKM who gave Owen the push and Owen who did the promos.

So a wrestler getting over is never down to the guy making him look a champ? Always down to the promoter and their own ability to talk? Please tell that to Flair when he thanks Race for making him, Austin when he thanks Bret, Sting when he thanks Flair etc.

I'm not a Shawn Michaels fan by any means, but truth is truth - when Bret was champ, HBK worked every house show and put Bret over multiple times in 1992 and 1993. From cage matches to ladder matches to regular matches, Shawn put over Bret dozens of times at house shows.

How gracious of mid-carder, newly crowned IC champion, Shawn Michaels to stick around and work with Bret in 1992/93. I know he had pressing engagements on, but he really came through for the company in this time by working with the World Champion. Honestly what the hell is that argument about?

Austin made himself, Bret definitely helped with the double face/heel turn, but Bret's idea in that was to keep himself #1. If he couldn't be the most over face, he would be the most hated heel. But Austin's rise to the top was unexpected by Bret and was something that he resented. Of course, at the time there were backstage politics that had started undermining Bret himself, but he wanted to be more over as a heel than Austin was as a face.

Nonsense. Survivor Series was where people started talking Austin seriously, why? Because Bret made him look like a main eventer in the ring. Bret was the yardstick in the company at the time, Austin took him to the limit and made it look like he could have beaten Bret just as easily as Bret beat Austin. That's elevating wrestlers through making them look your equal. Much better to do than let a guy score a fluke win over you

Mountie: check out his shoot.

LOD's shoot says HBK slept with Vince to get a World Title. Are we to believe everything in shoots?

Bulldog: I said it was a good idea. But he still politiced to get the title on his brother in law.

N,o he positioned himself, Bulldog and the company into a position to make more money, which is what wrestling is all about

Backlund: I heard it from Brets mouth (RF Shoot) Backlund was more then capable of carrying the ball here. He was a great heel.

Must have been a figment of my imagination Bret not being able to escape Backlund's Crossface, losing the match and dropping the title to him so

Shawn: Hes afraid of losing his spot to him. Listen to Bret talk about him "hes going to be the guy to try and take my spot" He was a transistional 4 month champion and he didnt think that was good enough.

He had an opinion about Shawn not being able to carry the load as World Champ. Ratings and merchandise sales after HBK won the title say Bret might have had a point, or at least valid grounds for concerns. Plus Bret still dropped the title to him in the center of the ring in a main event, face vs face match for the WWF Title

 

[Peoples_Champ]

So a wrestler getting over is never down to the guy making him look a champ? Always down to the promoter and their own ability to talk? Please tell that to Flair when he thanks Race for making him, Austin when he thanks Bret, Sting when he thanks Flair etc.

I'm not disputing the fact that Bret put over many wrestlers, including Owen, Austin and HBK. But to claim he is the most selfless, as this topic is made to discuss, is preposterous.

Did Bret help Owen get over? Yes. Did Bret limit Owen's possible rise? Also yes. Flair / Race and Sting / Flair are irrelevant because they continued on and met their potential to be a main eventer. Owen, God rest his soul, was never a main eventer beyond this one feud.

How gracious of mid-carder, newly crowned IC champion, Shawn Michaels to stick around and work with Bret in 1992/93. I know he had pressing engagements on, but he really came through for the company in this time by working with the World Champion. Honestly what the hell is that argument about?

Did Bret put Shawn over? Yes. Could he have done more? Also yes. I love your sarcasm about Shawn "graciously" sticking around. The point, which you're either too ignorant or too slow to comprehend, was that Bret should have at the very least done a promo to put over Shawn the next night on Raw. He couldn't even do that. His promos while he was gone did nothing for the reigning champ. How does that make him selfless. For comparison, look at John Cena the night after Raw. In his promo the night after WM, he congratulated The Rock and thanked him. As bitter as his feud was (supposedly) with The Rock, he still put him over the next night. Bret disappeared only to return months later and claim to want to wrestle the best wrestler in the WWF today, Steve Austin. The best wrestler in the WWF, according to Bret in his return promo, was not Shawn, the reigning champ, but someone else. But again, that's Bret being selfish, not selfless.

Nonsense. Survivor Series was where people started talking Austin seriously, why? Because Bret made him look like a main eventer in the ring. Bret was the yardstick in the company at the time, Austin took him to the limit and made it look like he could have beaten Bret just as easily as Bret beat Austin. That's elevating wrestlers through making them look your equal. Much better to do than let a guy score a fluke win over you

Which brings us to Stone Cold. So according to you, Survivor Series is when people started taking Austin seriously? What about King of the Ring 1996 where he won the fucking thing? What about his promo after KOTR 96 where he made his Austin 3:16 promo? What about the weeks before Bret returned where Austin was putting over Bret as a heel should, talking about how Bret was scared of him (this is a heel's way of putting a face over, by building anticipation)? What about the weeks that Austin got heat by interfering in matches, generating more heat on himself (or as Bret wrote in his book, "While I had been gone, Steve Austin had really flourished as a heel"? All this happened prior to Bret's return.

And Bret was not the yardstick in the company at the time, just listen to Vince and JR's commentary during the Survivor Series match. They were burying Bret by saying he was too slow, too old, too beatup.

Did Bret put over Austin? Yes. Is Bret getting way too much credit for this? Also yes.

I'm done with this topic. In the meantime, comrade_mario, please refrain making yourself look too stupid.

 

[FlairFan2003]

Cena is definately pretty selfless in terms of willingly putting over talent when asked.

There is a lot of debate and some vitrol directed at Brett Hart. Hart was much less willing to lose after he hit the top than some others and was very protective of his spot which he has admitted. Compared to Hogan & HBK he was a veritable saint. Also, while I have tremendous respect for a guy who loses high profile without protest but I never complain about a guy who is protective of their spot, no one looks out for you in wrestling but yourself.

No one in terms of selflessly towing the company line, regardless of how it made him look or if he agreed with it can compete with Flair. Hogan & Savage (another guy who deserves props in this thread) never would have signed with WCW if Flair didnt promise to put them over, especially Hogan. Flair took over the ridiculous Black Scorpion identity, jobbing in the payoff match as well, when WCW couldnt find anyone else willing to do it. He had an on air heart attack, even being admitted to the hospital for tests, to help pop a rating for Nitro even though he thought it was tasteless in light of Atlanta Falcons coach Dan Reeves recent heart attack, he let Vince Russo shave his head, he was humilhated and beaten up in one televised skit when a rival wrestler (Ron Garvin) dressed in drag and impersonated his date, he also dressed in drag himself on one 1995 PPV.

Throughout his career Flair repeatedly has done what he was asked for the good of the show, to the point guys like Triple H have criticized him for not sticking up for himself more.

As far as the poster who said Flair didnt make any stars, or not many, during the 80s Kerry Von Erich, Nikita Kolloff, Sting, & Lex Luger all got huge rubs from Flair. In each case he was the guy they feuded with that put them on the map as legit main event stars. Now Kolloff (left industry as his wife got sick and was dying) & Von Erich (drugs) didnt take as full advantage as Luger & Sting but that was through no fault of Flair.

 

[HBKperfect23]

Not really.




Provide a link for me and I will. Please explain why Piper took the title off Mountie at the Rumble if Mountie was supposed to win the title there.



How do you know that? Doesn't SummerSlam being in England make Bulldog the logical opponent. Even if HBK was discussed as an original opponent and Bret suggested Bulldog (not sure that happened), what's wrong with that? It was a better idea.



So what. Bret didn't think Backlund was the right choice and he said so. He still dropped the belt to him.



He did have a point about Austin. Then he worked with Austin anyway and put forth his best effort and made Austin a star. What a dick huh?



I am definitely not going to say Bret was the most selfless wrestler. He wanted to protect his spot and there is absolutley nothing wrong with that. So we actually do agree about this subject. I just think your argument has major holes.

As far as who is the most selfless, off the top of my head Mick Foley comes to mind. He always just seemed happy to be a wrestler and gave everything his best effort regardless of his spot on the card. Win or lose it didn't matter. Foley always did his best to put on a good show.

No link, cant find it on youtube. I do have the dvd. As someone else said Mountie could have lied in his shoot. After watching he doesnt strike as someone who was going to lie about it. But again, could be wrong.

How do I know Bret positioned himself to drop the title to Davey instead of Shawn? Bret said so in one of his shoots. Again, it all worked out and Bret was giving his opinion. So its ok for Bret to do that but its not OK for the Kliq to come up with ideas to work with each other?

Yes Bret still dropped the belt to Backlund. But he complained (according to himself) which is something the most selfless wrestlers dont do that and thats the topic. Who did Steamboat and Kane complain about not dropping belts to?

Question my judgement? Im ok with that. Maybe it does have holes. I do have a bad taste for Bret for how he left WWF. Hes one of my all time favorites but I dont get how he always comes out looking like the good guy. But thats a whole different topic.

And also Ill agree with you on Foley. That guy put everyone over, no questions asked

 

[Peoples_Champ]

Cena is definately pretty selfless in terms of willingly putting over talent when asked.

There is a lot of debate and some vitrol directed at Brett Hart. Hart was much less willing to lose after he hit the top than some others and was very protective of his spot which he has admitted. Compared to Hogan & HBK he was a veritable saint. Also, while I have tremendous respect for a guy who loses high profile without protest but I never complain about a guy who is protective of their spot, no one looks out for you in wrestling but yourself.

No one in terms of selflessly towing the company line, regardless of how it made him look or if he agreed with it can compete with Flair. Hogan & Savage (another guy who deserves props in this thread) never would have signed with WCW if Flair didnt promise to put them over, especially Hogan. Flair took over the ridiculous Black Scorpion identity, jobbing in the payoff match as well, when WCW couldnt find anyone else willing to do it. He had an on air heart attack, even being admitted to the hospital for tests, to help pop a rating for Nitro even though he thought it was tasteless in light of Atlanta Falcons coach Dan Reeves recent heart attack, he let Vince Russo shave his head, he was humilhated and beaten up in one televised skit when a rival wrestler (Ron Garvin) dressed in drag and impersonated his date, he also dressed in drag himself on one 1995 PPV.

Throughout his career Flair repeatedly has done what he was asked for the good of the show, to the point guys like Triple H have criticized him for not sticking up for himself more.

As far as the poster who said Flair didnt make any stars, or not many, during the 80s Kerry Von Erich, Nikita Kolloff, Sting, & Lex Luger all got huge rubs from Flair. In each case he was the guy they feuded with that put them on the map as legit main event stars. Now Kolloff (left industry as his wife got sick and was dying) & Von Erich (drugs) didnt take as full advantage as Luger & Sting but that was through no fault of Flair.

I'll give Flair credit. He put up with all the BS at WCW until the very end. He never complained about putting the title on Bret in WWF. He put anyone over while in WWE. I haven't watched too much TNA, but I've heard he hates it there.

Flair deserves a lot of credit for putting guys over. I don't know if he's the most selfless, but he's up there.

Still going with Mick Foley though.

 

[The Brain]

No link, cant find it on youtube. I do have the dvd. As someone else said Mountie could have lied in his shoot. After watching he doesnt strike as someone who was going to lie about it. But again, could be wrong.

It just doesn't make sense. Hart doesn't want to drop the title to Mountie at the rumble so he drops it two days earlier instead. Then Mountie, who supposedly was going to win the title at the rumble in the first place, loses it to Piper on that very night. Why would Mountie lose the title at the rumble if he was supposed to win it at the rumble?

How do I know Bret positioned himself to drop the title to Davey instead of Shawn? Bret said so in one of his shoots. Again, it all worked out and Bret was giving his opinion. So its ok for Bret to do that but its not OK for the Kliq to come up with ideas to work with each other?

I never said it wasn't ok with the Kliq to come up with ideas.

Yes Bret still dropped the belt to Backlund. But he complained (according to himself) which is something the most selfless wrestlers dont do that and thats the topic. Who did Steamboat and Kane complain about not dropping belts to?

Agreed. The topic is most selfless wrestler. Someone mentioned Bret and you argued against him. I agree with you. I wouldn't consider Bret the most selfless. Not by a long shot. I just didn't think some of your arguments that brought you to that conclusion were valid.

 

[justtxyank]

I'd also argue against Flair. Yes, Flair is more "selfless" than Hogan, but he is by no means selfless. Flair refused to put over Austin, Shane Douglas, Lex Luger, Mick Foley, Dustin Rhodes, etc. Flair held onto his spot for way too long despite his drawing power waining. Now, he did make people look good so I give him a lot of credit. He was generous for a star of his level, but he was hardly "selfless."

I still go with Steamboat. Steamboat never had a problem doing the job to anyone and he always sold like star for everyone he worked with.

 

[midgensa]

This is a pretty good thread.

From back in the day it could easily be someone like Dusty Rhodes or Harley Race who constantly lost long feuds to help build other top stars.

Once you get into the 90s and later the egos started to change and really control things. Bret Hart clearly would not lose to Michaels or apparently even a returning Hogan. Austin was notorious for whining about opponents.

It comes down to two guys in recent memory. John Cena and Chris Jericho. I know ... everyone is saying these two guys ... but there is a reason. They both have CONSTANTLY put others over without thinking twice. They trust THE BUSINESS and they trust their bookers (right or wrong sometimes) and it in general is a good thing. Cena single-handedly MADE Edge basically in one night. Cena put over The Rock. Cena put over Randy Orton at a WrestleMania. Cena has put over Alberto Del Rio. Sheamus. CM Punk. Whatever is asked of him ... he simply does it.

Jericho is a little different in that he was stuck forever in the midcard while clearly being held back ... but he STILL DID THE JOB whenever he was asked and FORCED his way into the main event scene. He put over a ton of talent. But he often was putting over already established Main Eventers while Cena put over and elevated a ton of talent.

I give Cena the slight edge (pun intended) ... but both of these guys are complete pros.

 

[HBKperfect23]

It just doesn't make sense. Hart doesn't want to drop the title to Mountie at the rumble so he drops it two days earlier instead. Then Mountie, who supposedly was going to win the title at the rumble in the first place, loses it to Piper on that very night. Why would Mountie lose the title at the rumble if he was supposed to win it at the rumble?



I never said it wasn't ok with the Kliq to come up with ideas.



Agreed. The topic is most selfless wrestler. Someone mentioned Bret and you argued against him. I agree with you. I wouldn't consider Bret the most selfless. Not by a long shot. I just didn't think some of your arguments that brought you to that conclusion were valid.

With the Mountie, I do not know. I just know he said Bret made it hard for him to get the title and he said it was supposed to happen at the Rumble. I have to go back and check the dvd, ill get you a quote and you can take that for what its worth.

You never said it wasnt ok for the kliq to come up with ideas but I was refering to the bad rep they get generally speaking. Im just pointing out, if you blame one for it, you have the blame the other as well.

Some of my arguments may not be valid in your opinion. Im going by what I hear, which in some cases can be different then what you hear. And ill admit again some bias against Bret because I feel he gets a pass others dont get when we discuss matters like this.

So we can agree on certain aspects of this and agree to disagree on others.