MJ's Comments and the Old School vs New School Mentality

[Big Sexy]

Michael Jordan recently commented for the first time on LeBron's decision to go to Miami. These were Jordan's thoughts:

"There's no way, with hindsight, I would've ever called up Larry, called up Magic and said, 'Hey, look, let's get together and play on one team,'" Jordan said after playing in a celebrity golf tournament in Nevada. "But that's ... things are different. I can't say that's a bad thing. It's an opportunity these kids have today. In all honesty, I was trying to beat those guys."

This isn't the first time something like this has been brought up. Old school players have talked before about how back in the 90's, 80's, and earlier players weren't as friendly with each other as they are now. It seems like everyone in the NBA is friends with each other. A lot of the big stars in the league are really close and that's a huge change from the past.

We'll use Magic and Bird as an example. Both have said that during their prime playing days they couldn't stand each other. Eventually that turned into respect and then a friendship during the end of their careers/retirements but when both were at their best they didn't like each other.

There were also a lot more rivalries in the past. Celtics/Lakers, Pistons/Bulls, Knicks/Pacers. The best players and the best teams did not like each other and the big name players viewed each other as competition and nothing more. They wanted to beat each other not become best buddies.

So my question to you guys is, which mentality do you prefer? The old school or the new school? And do you think the newer mentality has had a negative affect on the game?

I personally wish the old school mentality would come back. There's nothing like looking back and watching the Bad Boys fight with everyone. There's no rivalry better then Magic vs Bird. And it's always great watching past games of Michael Jordan just going off and competing against the best of the best every night.

 

[Davi323]

I like the old school mentality. I grew up watching the Pistons go from being also-rans in the Eastern Conference to the Celtics, then seeing them overcome that hurdle, have success, then see the Bad Boys disappear as the Bulls rose. However, There is a difference between what LeBron, Bosh and Dwayne Wade did with what Jordan suggested. By the time Michael Jordan had enough fame and popularity to have held a "summit", Magic Johnson and Larry Bird were already multiple time NBA champions. Magic was already playing with James Worthy and Kareem Abdul Jabbar, and Larry was playing with Kevin McHale and Robert Parrish. They were already playing on NBA championship caliber teams, having them all sign with one team wouldn't have changed anything for them. LeBron and Chris Bosh have yet to win anything. They have motivation to create a situation that gives them the best opportunity to win, while Magic and Bird had already been there, done that, multiple times.

 

[CH David]

I actually just read this article. Love MJ's comments.

The old school mentality is best for the fans in my opinion. What happens when you get top stars going up against each other in what people consider an epic regular season showdown? You are likely going to get some very good ratings, and a game of one-ups-manship. When you get stars that gravitate towards each other like James, Wade, and Bosh, and they are now part of a team, then you lose that ability.

Sure you get to see the younger Big 3 go up against everyone else in the league, but it's really just another game. It isn't an epic showdown that ESPN wants to look at, other than maybe the Lakers or Celtics against the Heat. This new thing where everyone is friends is kind of stupid. Now we get to see who defers to who in the final seconds. Big whoop. The real match-up is always superstar vs. superstar. People would've loved to see LeBron vs. Wade in the Eastern Conference Finals, that right there would draw huge. But now nobody gets that, because there is no longer that cut-throat attitude in the NBA, and if there is, it is slowly being faded out.

I also like how in that article, Charles Barkley also added his thoughts.

Spoiler

"He'll never be Jordan," Barkley told 790 the Ticket in Miami earlier in the week. "This clearly takes him out of the conversation. He can win as much as he wants to.

"There would have been something honorable about staying in Cleveland and trying to win it as 'The Man' ... LeBron, if he would've in Cleveland, and if he could've got a championship there, it would have been over the top for his legacy, just one in Cleveland. No matter how many he wins in Miami, it clearly is Dwyane Wade's team."

 

[People's Champ]

I want to comment first on something that wasn't asked in the OP, but has been made into a discussion from what I've heard. And that's the fact of who made these comments. There is a feeling that this was just MJ trying to maintain his status as the best ever. He made these comments to keep his spot as the top dog and remind everyone of it. And because of that, some people have taken issue with it. For the record, I have no problem with MJ saying what he said. In fact I love it. I see no problem with MJ saying this, even if its for himself. The fact is he's correct and had the balls to come out and say it. The guy always has a "have to be the best" mentality and that's what I love about him.

As far as the new school vs old school debate, unless you're fairly young, you have to go old school. that's what made basketball so great. You had these rivalries that you could watch and see the passion of these guys. They wanted to be the best of the best. They were personal. Magic vs Bird of course is the all time best rivalry. These guys couldn't stand each other but gained mutual respect for each other after competing so hard against each other. Bad blood between teams was also fun to watch. Everything about that type of basketball made it great to watch.

 

[Big Sexy]

However, There is a difference between what LeBron, Bosh and Dwayne Wade did with what Jordan suggested. By the time Michael Jordan had enough fame and popularity to have held a "summit", Magic Johnson and Larry Bird were already multiple time NBA champions. Magic was already playing with James Worthy and Kareem Abdul Jabbar, and Larry was playing with Kevin McHale and Robert Parrish. They were already playing on NBA championship caliber teams, having them all sign with one team wouldn't have changed anything for them. LeBron and Chris Bosh have yet to win anything. They have motivation to create a situation that gives them the best opportunity to win, while Magic and Bird had already been there, done that, multiple times.

I think you are reading too much into the "Magic and Bird" part of the statement. Jordan was just using two great players from that time period as an example and saying he would have never tried calling them up to form a super team of sorts. He could have used any two great players from that time period but Magic and Bird were probably just the first two that popped into his head. The main point he was getting at was just that the great players back then saw each other as competition and nothing more. They wanted to beat their competition, not join them.

 

[gd]

I don't think it's really a big deal either way. Sure it isn't nearly the same today as it was years ago, but it's not like watching the threesome in Miami won't be exciting as hell to watch. It'll just be different.

In the end though, I think it does take away from the game a little bit. For instance, if LeBron would finally bring home a title in Clevland, it'd be an incredible moment. Things would've been accomplished the right way. Whenever they win a title in Miami, it's not going to be as big of a deal and something will be missing, some level of satisfaction for the fans as well as LeBron.

Of course, you can't blame LeBron and Wade for doing what they did because they were able to. I'm not sure this kind of thing would be possible years ago, not only because of the mentality but because of the way to league was structured.

Things certainly are different today, but it doesn't make them any worse.

 

[jmt225]

The problem I have here is that people are acting like Jordan, Magic, and Bird were the only good players on their teams.... ummm, WRONG. Jordan worked along side Scottie Pippen (top 50 player in the game's history), Magic had Kareem and Worthy, and Bird had McHale and Parish. Not to mention all these guys has FANTASTIC role players on their team; role players that SQUASH the role players of today.

The fact is, in the NBA, you cannot win a championship with just one Superstar. When was the last time that happened? You could argue for the Rockets with Hakeem Olajuwon, but even those Rockets teams had some great role players. But yeah... everyone else from the early eighties up, at least two superstars on the team. AT LEAST.

So, yeah... just because the NBA today is filled with less talented players than the NBA of yesteryear, that doesn't mean we have to discredit LeBron, Wade, and Bosh for making this move. It was their best option to win a championship. To blame these guys would be like blaming the Lakers for getting Pau Gasol. Why couldn't Kobe beat those guys by himself, as MJ basically put it? See how ******ed that sounds? Michael Jordan would not have won a single championship without Scottie Pippen. That is a FACT. How is it LeBron, Wade, and Bosh's fault that their teams weren't able get them solid players to play with like a Scottie Pippen, Ron Harper, Dennis Rodman, Toni Kukoc , Horace Grant, Steve Kerr, John Paxson, etc.?

Man, Michael Jordan and that fucking ego of his can eat a fucking dick. I cannot stand that motherfucker. I seriously cannot wait for the day people start to remove his dick from their mouths and start expressing how they really feel about the douchebag.

 

[klunderbunker]

I'm fine with what Jordan says. The problem for me is that when/if the Heat win a title, it's going to feel like the Yankees winning it most of the time: yes they won it fairly, but they more or less bought it. On Mike and Mike about a week ago, Greeney summed up what I thought on it pretty well: it feels like this was some secret backroom deal taht was made up years ago in a hotel room in Beijing. That's how this feels to me. This isn't something special like Magic and Kareem going to play together or the Celtics' frontline of the 80s. This feels like a business deal done by corporate suits and not NBA players. Barkley put this well also: Lebron is never going to be Jordan. If you want to make the Pippen comparisons, go ahead, but it's a different story. Wade and Bosh are fairly larger pieces than Pippen was. If you sent a player like Pippen to Cleveland, Lebron would have won there more than likely. This comes off to me as Lebron taking a somewhat easier way to a title which just doesn't sit well with me. He comes off like a businessman instead of an athlete, which is perfectly fine but offputting to me.

 

[CH David]

Now, JMT. I'll gladly agree with you that Jordan, Byrd, and Magic had great teammates to back them up for them to win. But, and I'm only 20 and wasn't around for Magic and Byrd so if I'm wrong, please forgive me, the players didn't get together and choose where they wanted to go or who they wanted to play with. Management brought those players in to win said championships. Sure you could say that management brought in LeBron and Bosh, even though in reality they knew what they were doing from the start.

 

[jmt225]

Now, JMT. I'll gladly agree with you that Jordan, Byrd, and Magic had great teammates to back them up for them to win. But, and I'm only 20 and wasn't around for Magic and Byrd so if I'm wrong, please forgive me, the players didn't get together and choose where they wanted to go or who they wanted to play with. Management brought those players in to win said championships. Sure you could say that management brought in LeBron and Bosh, even though in reality they knew what they were doing from the start.

No, that's 100% true.

However, free agency back then isn't what it is today. What happened this summer was the league's fault, bottom line, mainly because there should be no "max" contracts. It's all because of the ******ed max contract why this went down.

That said, let's say Magic had a falling out with the Lakers, became a free agent, and Boston needed a new point guard and were interested... you don't think Magic wouldn't have excepted that offer? Of course he would have, but the Lakers kept Magic happy, and the league wasn't set-up in a way anyway for Superstars to make leaps like that.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with what these 3 did, and it just rubs me the wrong way how Jordan, who had such great players with him and also played a big part in getting Rodman to Chicago, can criticize these guys and play the holier than thou card.

 

[CH David]

No, that's 100% true.

Phew, I was worried for a second.

However, free agency back then isn't what it is today. What happened this summer was the league's fault, bottom line, mainly because there should be no "max" contracts. It's all because of the ******ed max contract why this went down.

I don't doubt that at all. I'll also go with the teams for allowing all three to become free agents in 2010. If they don't this doesn't happen, and we don't feel LeBron gave up on his chances to win the title without his best buds (outside of his entourage) in the mix.

That said, let's say Magic had a falling out with the Lakers, became a free agent, and Boston needed a new point guard and were interested... you don't think Magic wouldn't have excepted that offer? Of course he would have, but the Lakers kept Magic happy, and the league wasn't set-up in a way anyway for Superstars to make leaps like that.

Magic likely would have accepted. The only difference is that during his career he wasn't buddy buddy with Byrd. He wasn't going to call him up and ask if he should sign a deal matching Byrd's. That is why everyone is giving the Heat shit, because the players got together to decide where they should team up together. The old school thing, which Michael is up on, is that he wanted to beat the other stars and show he was that damn good (with his help of course)

There's absolutely nothing wrong with what these 3 did, and it just rubs me the wrong way how Jordan, who had such great players with him and also played a big part in getting Rodman to Chicago, can criticize these guys and play the holier than thou card.

Again, the reason he and everyone else is criticizing them is because of the way they got together and said they should play on a team. Not because the teams signed them, or that LeBron gave up in Cleveland. Jordan wasn't in the decision process to bring Scottie to the Bulls, or to bring in Rodman. It was management that brought in Pau Gasol to L.A., or Shaq to Miami in 2006. Players may try and lobby for them to make the decision, but the difference between all of that, and the Miami situation, is that the Big 3 had planned on teaming together beforehand.

 

[jmt225]

Magic likely would have accepted. The only difference is that during his career he wasn't buddy buddy with Byrd. He wasn't going to call him up and ask if he should sign a deal matching Byrd's. That is why everyone is giving the Heat shit, because the players got together to decide where they should team up together. The old school thing, which Michael is up on, is that he wanted to beat the other stars and show he was that damn good (with his help of course)

Ahh.. yes, I knew I was forgetting something in my original post, and this was it.

Everything you just said David, is 100% true. However, who's fault is it that that's the way things are? Is it the players, or is it the league? It's the fucking league's, of course.

Dude, today if you get into a little scuffle, you're suspended 10 fucking games, if not more. Back when those guys played... you didn't get any kind of punishment. The league is what softened these players up, because players today know that if they foul somebody hard, they'll get serious repercussion from the league. They know they can't fight unless they want their pay taken away from them and get suspended for half of the damn season.

We'll never, ever see a real rivalry in the NBA again because of that, and it's a shame. However, it's NOT the players fault. The league has just become sissified, for lack of a better term. They want to get rid of the "thug" image that they've had for so long. Some could argue that this is all a good thing, which it probably is to be honest, but it does take away from the competition aspect of it.

Now, with that said, Jordan should recognize that this is the league's fault and not the players. Criticize the league... not the players. But of course, he won't do that since he's an owner. He's too much of an office pussy, so instead he just makes the players look bad.

 

[CH David]

JMT, you went off on a wiiiiide ass tangent until the end. Lol. Now when you look at it as indepth as you have, then yes it is the leagues fault. They allowed for players to be at a more offensive advantage with all of the calls being made when a LeBron or Kobe drive to the net.

However, it is also the teams, and players themselves that can be held accountable. Yes I did say players. Teams allowed Wade, Bosh, and LeBron to be free agents this year, by not locking them up with long term contracts when they had the chance. However, the players themselves are looked at as not wanting to accept true competition. You don't need hard fouls or truly physical play to see James vs. Wade in a test of who is better. LeBron is fine with playing second fiddle to Wade in Miami, which is sad because of how much talent he has.

Now, when it comes to the old school mentality, does committing a hard foul in the lane come to mind first when you think about it? Actually I think it does, since you went there about the league and everything. Sure it has been *****fied, but that's what happens when you live in a society like us, where parents don't truly pay attention to what their children watch. The mentality that I think about with this is competition vs. friendship. If you want to be considered the best in the league, you have to beat the best. Right now I just can't consider LeBron the best when he isn't even the man on his team.

 

[Big Sexy]

The problem I have here is that people are acting like Jordan, Magic, and Bird were the only good players on their teams.... ummm, WRONG. Jordan worked along side Scottie Pippen (top 50 player in the game's history), Magic had Kareem and Worthy, and Bird had McHale and Parish. Not to mention all these guys has FANTASTIC role players on their team; role players that SQUASH the role players of today.

I've never argued that and never would argue that but with the exception of the Showtime Lakers with Magic, Kareem, and Worthy, NO threesome on a team has ever had this much talent. LeBron is easily the first or second best player in the league right now and Wade is probably the number 3 or 4 guy. Even Bosh at the very worst is a top 20 guy and he's probably more around top 15.

The fact is, in the NBA, you cannot win a championship with just one Superstar. When was the last time that happened? You could argue for the Rockets with Hakeem Olajuwon, but even those Rockets teams had some great role players. But yeah... everyone else from the early eighties up, at least two superstars on the team. AT LEAST.

Let's see in 1989 and 1990 the Bad Boys won with one superstar. The 2004 Detroit Pistons won a title with 0 superstars. The San Antonio Spurs have won four titles in 11 years with only ONE true superstar. By 1999 David Robinson was on the downside of his career and was no longer a superstar player and while Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili are very very good players I wouldn't consider them superstars especially not in 2003 when they won it all. Shit it's even hard to argue that Pau Gasol is really a superstar. That's plenty of teams winning with only one superstar. At the very least all of the Pistons teams and the 2003 Spurs won with only one superstar depending on your definition of what a superstar is.

So, yeah... just because the NBA today is filled with less talented players than the NBA of yesteryear, that doesn't mean we have to discredit LeBron, Wade, and Bosh for making this move. It was their best option to win a championship.

How are the current group of NBA player less talented? For every Magic, Bird, and Jordan I can give you a Chris Paul, Kobe, and LeBron James. For every Barkley, Drexler, and Olajuwon I can give you a Carmelo Anthony, Dwayne Wade, and Dwight Howard. I'm not sure where this less talented bullshit is coming from.

To blame these guys would be like blaming the Lakers for getting Pau Gasol. Why couldn't Kobe beat those guys by himself, as MJ basically put it? See how ******ed that sounds?

I'm sorry but Pau Gasol is NO WHERE near the level of a LeBron or Dwayne Wade and I wouldn't even say he is better then Bosh. Jordan was talking about superstar players when making his comments. LeBron and Wade are easily two of the top 4 players in the league and Bosh isn't exactly a scrub.

Michael Jordan would not have won a single championship without Scottie Pippen. That is a FACT.

That is very disputable, Would he have won 6? Fuck no, but even the Bulls team without Jordan won 50+ games and took the eventual East Champion Knicks to 7 games. Substitute Jordan for Pippen and that team has a great chance to win it all. With the latter 3 titles he won, the team was good enough without Pippen to win at least one there as well.

How is it LeBron, Wade, and Bosh's fault that their teams weren't able get them solid players to play with like a Scottie Pippen, Ron Harper, Dennis Rodman, Toni Kukoc , Horace Grant, Steve Kerr, John Paxson, etc.?

Bosh played in Toronto so he was screwed from the beginning but the others definitely had help. Did you forget D Wade already won a title? The Heat the last couple years were in rebuilding mode because they basically sold their future to win that one title but this summer even if they didn't get both LeBron and Bosh they still were going to get at least one big name max contract guy and then would have been able to build a very good roster with the rest of the money.

In LeBron's case he had a 20 ppg career scorer and 2 time all star in Antawn Jamison. He had a good, all star point guard in Mo Williams who was easily better then any point guard Jordan ever played with. He had a very good defending and rebounding big man in Vareajo. He also had very capable guards in Delonte West and Anthony Parker who had recently been double digit point per game players before coming to Cleveland. The team wasn't exactly stacked but it was a very capable team and they should have been able to beat an aging Celtics team especially after being up 2-1 in the series.

I'm sorry but in no way is team with a starting lineup of John Paxson, MJ, Pippen, Horace Grant, and Bill Cartwright and a bench core of BJ Armstrong, Stacey King, Will Perdue, and Craig Hodges that much better if at all then what LeBron had this last year. That exact Bulls team won three titles.

Man, Michael Jordan and that fucking ego of his can eat a fucking dick. I cannot stand that motherfucker. I seriously cannot wait for the day people start to remove his dick from their mouths and start expressing how they really feel about the douchebag.

Really? Did you even read what he said? "I can't say that's a bad thing." "It's an opportunity these kids have today." How are those statements MJ being a dick? He said the game is different and it's not something that he would have done. If anybody has been a dick with this you might have a gripe with Charles Barkley but even he is just stating his opinion and it happens to be an old school opinion.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

I could create a thread about how I think Pippen is the most overrated great player in history and how we would have done basically nothing without Jordan. Just might.

I have no problem what with Jordan said. The game has evolved plenty since his day and it seems to be the new thing for superstars to team up. I don't know how long it is going to last but it will be around for at least five years. The old school mentality was to crush your opponent by all means necessary and Jordan and Barkley still feel that way and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm sure if Lebron, Wade, and Bosh were playing twenty years ago, they would have the same feeling too.

 

[Mustang Sally]

The problem I have here is that people are acting like Jordan, Magic, and Bird were the only good players on their teams.... ummm, WRONG. Jordan worked along side Scottie Pippen (top 50 player in the game's history), Magic had Kareem and Worthy, and Bird had McHale and Parish. Not to mention all these guys has FANTASTIC role players on their team; role players that SQUASH the role players of today.

That's certainly true but it still underlines the difference between old style and new style. Under the old ways, the Bull's management put together the team one piece at a time, bringing in Jordan and Pippen at separate times, then adding role players like John Paxson, Bill Cartwright and B.J. Armstrong. They replaced guys like Charles Oakley when the time came and skillfully brought in the right guys to blend with Jordan and Pippen. That's the old way.

Now, James, Bosh & Wade made their plans four years ago and it seems foolish to have believed that other teams like the Knicks and Bulls had a chance at them. It was all arranged and if an NBA organization ever tried to do something like this, they would wind up paying millions of dollars in penalties for collusion. For players, though, it's okay to do this.....for now.

How about this? How about if in future years, the best players in the league decide to sell themselves "three to a team" for the simple reason that they want to choose who they play with? If it happens, we'll have about 4 teams that realistically have a chance to play for the championship and 26 teams who play also-ran. Put another way, 4 teams are the New York Yankees and everyone else is the Pittsburgh Pirates.

The people in Miami and Los Angeles will love the way things are, as long as the Heat and Lakers wind up in the finals. But it will be interesting to see how everyone else feels during the basketball season.

I'm with MJ; I'd rather see LeBron play against the best.....rather than arrange to get the best on his side in order to crush everyone else.

 

[jmt225]

I've never argued that and never would argue that but with the exception of the Showtime Lakers with Magic, Kareem, and Worthy, NO threesome on a team has ever had this much talent. LeBron is easily the first or second best player in the league right now and Wade is probably the number 3 or 4 guy. Even Bosh at the very worst is a top 20 guy and he's probably more around top 15.

I agree with you there.

Let's see in 1989 and 1990 the Bad Boys won with one superstar.

The Bad Boys was the one team I was thinking of too, but man... Isiah had such a great supporting cast that it's hard to really include them.

The 2004 Detroit Pistons won a title with 0 superstars.

This is true, but that was just a GREAT team, filled with All-Stars at their absolute peak. Plus they had a superstar of a coach.

The San Antonio Spurs have won four titles in 11 years with only ONE true superstar.

If that were true than Tony Parker would have never won Finals MVP.

By 1999 David Robinson was on the downside of his career and was no longer a superstar player and while Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili are very very good players I wouldn't consider them superstars especially not in 2003 when they won it all. Shit it's even hard to argue that Pau Gasol is really a superstar. That's plenty of teams winning with only one superstar. At the very least all of the Pistons teams and the 2003 Spurs won with only one superstar depending on your definition of what a superstar is.

Okay, I get what you're saying and the point you're trying to prove... but let's get back to the matter at hand and what was my ultimate point. Has LeBron, D-Wade, and Bosh have anywhere close the same type of supporting cast as all the teams you listed? The answer is absolutely NOT.

How are the current group of NBA player less talented? For every Magic, Bird, and Jordan I can give you a Chris Paul, Kobe, and LeBron James. For every Barkley, Drexler, and Olajuwon I can give you a Carmelo Anthony, Dwayne Wade, and Dwight Howard. I'm not sure where this less talented bullshit is coming from.

I didn't say that. I agree that all-stars from today's core can match yesteryears all-stars. However, when it comes to ROLE players, that you can count on, the old teams EASILY have the edge there. Even the Lakers championship team this year... look at their role players. Fisher, Bynum, Odom, Farmar, Sasha, etc... do those guys come anywhere close to matching the role players from the Bulls teams? Seriously, outside of Fisher... who showed up for the Lakers consistently throughout the Finals? None of those guys did outside of Fisher. Not even Ron Artest had a good series, just a good game 7.

I'm sorry but Pau Gasol is NO WHERE near the level of a LeBron or Dwayne Wade and I wouldn't even say he is better then Bosh.

But did LeBron, D-Wade, and Bosh have any player on their teams as good as Gasol? Nope.

And besides Dirk, Pau is the best Power Forward in the league, easily. So, yeah... he's better than Bosh, imo.

Jordan was talking about superstar players when making his comments. LeBron and Wade are easily two of the top 4 players in the league and Bosh isn't exactly a scrub.

I understand that, but getting Pau was a huge deal for the Lakers (and it was completely unfair how it went down; much more unfair than how this Miami trio came together).

That is very disputable, Would he have won 6? Fuck no, but even the Bulls team without Jordan won 50+ games and took the eventual East Champion Knicks to 7 games. Substitute Jordan for Pippen and that team has a great chance to win it all. With the latter 3 titles he won, the team was good enough without Pippen to win at least one there as well.

Fair enough.

Bosh played in Toronto so he was screwed from the beginning but the others definitely had help. Did you forget D Wade already won a title?

Yeah, with Shaq. But after Shaq left, who has Miami gotten to help Wade? Nobody.

The Heat the last couple years were in rebuilding mode because they basically sold their future to win that one title but this summer even if they didn't get both LeBron and Bosh they still were going to get at least one big name max contract guy and then would have been able to build a very good roster with the rest of the money.

But none of the guys they got were any good.

Fucking Mo Williams couldn't make a shot in the playoffs to save his life. Jamison turned out to be a bust. And as far as Bosh... I thought Toronto was building a nice little team up there, but Hedo had a horrible year, and I think their coaching sucks.

In LeBron's case he had a 20 ppg career scorer and 2 time all star in Antawn Jamison. He had a good, all star point guard in Mo Williams who was easily better then any point guard Jordan ever played with. He had a very good defending and rebounding big man in Vareajo. He also had very capable guards in Delonte West and Anthony Parker who had recently been double digit point per game players before coming to Cleveland. The team wasn't exactly stacked but it was a very capable team and they should have been able to beat an aging Celtics team especially after being up 2-1 in the series.

But where were these guys in the playoffs, BS? We both know none of those mothefuckers stepped up to help LeBron. Sure, they were great in the regular season, but my God were they just AWFUL in the playoffs and you and I both know that's a fact.

I'm sorry but in no way is team with a starting lineup of John Paxson, MJ, Pippen, Horace Grant, and Bill Cartwright and a bench core of BJ Armstrong, Stacey King, Will Perdue, and Craig Hodges that much better if at all then what LeBron had this last year. That exact Bulls team won three titles.

Those guys stepped-up and hit big shots in the Playoffs. You cannot say the same thing about LeBron's teammates, can you?

Really? Did you even read what he said? "I can't say that's a bad thing." "It's an opportunity these kids have today." How are those statements MJ being a dick? He said the game is different and it's not something that he would have done. If anybody has been a dick with this you might have a gripe with Charles Barkley but even he is just stating his opinion and it happens to be an old school opinion.

If it was no big deal then it wouldn't have gotten the coverage it has since he said it. He was just running his mouth once again to let everyone know that none of the players today are as good as he was or as good as competition was. He does it all the time. He's an arrogant prick, man. Sorry... but that's just how I look at the bastard, lol.

 

[gd]

Some of these are from BS and some are from jmt. Just a mish mash, if you will. Hopefully I won't derail this too much further.

If that were true than Tony Parker would have never won Finals MVP.

Parker shouldn't have won Finals MVP that year. Should've been Duncan's for sure. Don't have the proof with me, but I remembe reading a very convincing article, likley about how Duncan did all the dirty work and actually played D, or something. Trust me on this.

I didn't say that. I agree that all-stars from today's core can match yesteryears all-stars. However, when it comes to ROLE players, that you can count on, the old teams EASILY have the edge there. Even the Lakers championship team this year... look at their role players. Fisher, Bynum, Odom, Farmar, Sasha, etc... do those guys come anywhere close to matching the role players from the Bulls teams? Seriously, outside of Fisher... who showed up for the Lakers consistently throughout the Finals? None of those guys did outside of Fisher. Not even Ron Artest had a good series, just a good game 7.

Completely different nowadays when it comes to role players. First off, with all of the expansion, there's less talent for each team, giving us diluted rosters. Also, with the big contracts nowadays and the ways contracts are structured, it'd be impossible to build some of the teams you had back in the day. The 86 Celtics would've never existed because there was no way you could pay Bird, McHale, Parish, DJ and still had room for all the rest of the talent on the roster.
I understand that, but getting Pau was a huge deal for the Lakers (and it was completely unfair how it went down; much more unfair than how this Miami trio came together).

I'm sorry but Pau Gasol is NO WHERE near the level of a LeBron or Dwayne Wade and I wouldn't even say he is better then Bosh.

Pau isn't a superstar like LeBron or Dwayne, but I'd certainly put him ahead of Bosh. In fact, I think Bosh should be striving to reach Pau's level. That's exactly the kind of role he should be playing on the Heat.

But where were these guys in the playoffs, BS? We both know none of those mothefuckers stepped up to help LeBron. Sure, they were great in the regular season, but my God were they just AWFUL in the playoffs and you and I both know that's a fact.

The Cavs supporting cast was god awful. Not sure how that's arguable. Jamison has never done anything when it matters and can't defent. Mo is nothing more than a streaky shooter who can't defend either. Sure, LeBron could've won with that roster, but it would've been difficult. Compare the Cavs supporting cast to someone like the Lakers and it's no question who's better. Not even close.

 

[Big Sexy]

I didn't say that. I agree that all-stars from today's core can match yesteryears all-stars. However, when it comes to ROLE players, that you can count on, the old teams EASILY have the edge there. Even the Lakers championship team this year... look at their role players. Fisher, Bynum, Odom, Farmar, Sasha, etc... do those guys come anywhere close to matching the role players from the Bulls teams? Seriously, outside of Fisher... who showed up for the Lakers consistently throughout the Finals? None of those guys did outside of Fisher. Not even Ron Artest had a good series, just a good game 7.

The role players aren't as recognizable because they are still in the middle of their careers but they are certainly just as talented as in the past. I'll take Fisher, Bynum, Odom, and Farmar over Paxson, Armstrong, Grant, and Cartwright any day.

But did LeBron, D-Wade, and Bosh have any player on their teams as good as Gasol? Nope.

D Wade had Shaq when he was still good so he definitely did. And LeBron didn't but Jamison is very good. They only had like 25 games to play together so they were never able to really mesh and find a rhythm but that isn't managements fault. They got a very talented player but he and LeBron were never given a full season together.

And besides Dirk, Pau is the best Power Forward in the league, easily. So, yeah... he's better than Bosh, imo.

I'll take Bosh and Amare both over Gasol. I'd also take Boozer over him.

Yeah, with Shaq. But after Shaq left, who has Miami gotten to help Wade? Nobody

.

Shaq has only been gone for 2 years and the Heat had no cap room because like I said earlier they basically sold their future for a title. This year they finally had room and now Wade has more talent around him then he knows what to do with.

But where were these guys in the playoffs, BS? We both know none of those mothefuckers stepped up to help LeBron. Sure, they were great in the regular season, but my God were they just AWFUL in the playoffs and you and I both know that's a fact.

None of them played well consistently save for maybe Vareajo but you know who else didn't play that well in the loss to the Celtics? LeBron James. They had a 2-1 series lead and LeBron disappeared along with everyone else. This last year the blame doesn't only go on the supporting cast.

Those guys stepped-up and hit big shots in the Playoffs. You cannot say the same thing about LeBron's teammates, can you?

Outside of ONE shot from John Paxson in the 93 finals who else made big shots? When you win three titles in a row from 91-93 that's 12 series. Eventually someone was bound to make a big shot.

If it was no big deal then it wouldn't have gotten the coverage it has since he said it. He was just running his mouth once again to let everyone know that none of the players today are as good as he was or as good as competition was. He does it all the time. He's an arrogant prick, man. Sorry... but that's just how I look at the bastard, lol.

MJ was asked the question and he answered. He didn't go looking for the media to tell them how he felt, they came to him. Shit earlier today Magic said basically the exact same thing. Is he an arrogant prick too?

 

[Khalifa]

I understand that, but getting Pau was a huge deal for the Lakers (and it was completely unfair how it went down; much more unfair than how this Miami trio came together).

This is the only point I can be bothered argueing about. How the fuck can you say it was unfair? Memphis did agree to the deal did they not? At that point Memphis knew they were not going anywhere and decided to build young for the future and look at there team now. Mayo, Gay, Conley and Gasol ( who they got from teh Gasol trade). That is a talented young starting line up and all have a lot more in them. They succeded there goal at going young. So it was not unfair at all. Lakers were just the lucky ones to get Gasol.