Maybe Spanking isn't a bad thing....

[LSN80]

It would have been far better than the fate of 9 year year old Savannah Hardin, who died after being forced to run three hours as punishment from her stepmother and grandmother. The crime that earned her such punishment? Eating candy bars without asking permission, then lying when questioned.

http://www.wpxi.com/ap/ap/general/stepmom-grandmother-charged-in-girls-death/nJdH6/

Authorities are looking into the circumstances behind Savannah's death, whether it be through verbal commands, or physical coercion. But after three hours of running non-stop, the severely dehydrated girl had a seizure, became non-responsive, and died two days later. 27 seven year old stepmother Jessica Mae Hardin and grandmother 46-year-old Joyce Hardin Garrard are in jail on murder charges after the pathologist who performed the autopsy ruled the death a homicide. Unnamed witnesses said that the aforementioned grandmother told the girl to start running and not stop for three hours after lying to her grandmother about eating candy bars without permission. Neighbor Roger Simpson did say the following:

I saw her running at around 4 p.m., but didn't see anybody chasing or coercing her."I saw her running down there, that's what I told the detectives. But I don't see how that would kill her."

I find myself concerned her by several things. The report states that the stepmother called the police at 6:45 pm, stating that her step-daughter had a seizure and was unresponsive. At that point, Savannah would have been running for for almost three hours. Further, this would seem to indicate that her step-mother was watching her, which is very disconcerting. Were there no signs in the almost three hours that the girl wasn't feeling well? With the coroner's report indicating that the girl died of extreme dehydration, is it a stretch to imagine that the girl had asked for water or something to drink, and was denied?

I think we all can agree here that the punishment doled out by step-mom and grandmother was extremely unneccessary and terribly severe. I don't know anyone who would argue that this was acceptable in any way. And there lies my issue. What would make any parent or grandparent think that this punishment is appropriate, and that there weren't risks? The report indicates that along with the stepmother calling police, so did the concerned citizens who saw the girl in poor physical state. So how did this physical state slip past her step-mother until she seizured?

The other question that arises here for me is appropriate punishment. The title of the thread here is somewhat facetious, especially with the spanking deaths we hear about in this day and age. And in the hands of these two women, corporal punishment may have been overdone as well, and this girl another victim. But for all the criticism of corporal punishment, it was something I experienced as a child, and believe I turned out ok. Discipline is obviously a case-by-case basis, and the girl should have been punished for lying, but how? What punishment is appropriate, and when does it become too much? Again, we can all agree, I'm sure, that the punishment was too severe. What I'm looking for is to what would be appropriate in these circumstances.

How does something like this happen? Mental illness? Blinded by anger? Resentment of the child? How does a step-mother watch her daughter run for almost three hours with seemingly no concern for her well-being?

What is appropriate punishment for a child in situations such as these, and what is over the line? Obviously what these women did was over the line, but at what point does punishment become over the line?

Whether the girl was forced to run by physical coercion or verbal commands, should the punishment for the two women be any different? What would you consider appropiate punishment?

How were you punished as a child for poor behavior? Loking back, do you believe it was appropriate, or crossed the line?

Any other thoughts or discussion of this more then welcome.

 

[¡Roján!]

How does something like this happen? Mental illness? Blinded by anger? Resentment of the child? How does a step-mother watch her daughter run for almost three hours with seemingly no concern for her well-being?

I think the fact that the step-mother was in on it is a huge key element in this story. How many times do you hear stories about the evil-stepmother? Maybe the step-mother really couldn't care less about the child, seeing that in essence, it isn't really hers. I think the reason this happened is beyond proper explanation by me. I'd like to think that the step-mother and the grandmother had some sort of mental problem, just because someone doing that to a child with conscious of doing this sickens me.

What is appropriate punishment for a child in situations such as these, and what is over the line? Obviously what these women did was over the line, but at what point does punishment become over the line?

It's always been a principle of mine to never hit children, ever. It's just totally unwarranted and it makes the child not do something naughty out of fear, rather than understanding why it's wrong. Not hitting the child may be the harder way, but it has a much better pay-off on the life of the child. So, violence is over the line for me. As for what the child deserved... eh, a talking to? It's not like she murdered the Pope, she ate candy. If the child never listened, they should have taken her toys off her for a while.

Whether the girl was forced to run by physical coercion or verbal commands, should the punishment for the two women be any different? What would you consider appropiate punishment?

The two women should be jailed for life unless a psychologist were to determine any mental illnesses. Period. I wouldn't go as far as the death penalty, because that's another thing I don't agree with.

How were you punished as a child for poor behavior? Loking back, do you believe it was appropriate, or crossed the line?

I was hit twice I believe. Once, for throwing a vase at my sister and then, for stealing my dad's phone and not telling him where it was. Every other time, I'd either be taken to the naughty step and explained why what I did was wrong or I'd get a possession of mine took off me. I'm grateful my parents never hit me often or made me run a marathon because I believe I turned out better because of it. Thanks, Pa and Ma. Now give me back my Xbox.

 

[Loveless]

How does something like this happen? Mental illness? Blinded by anger? Resentment of the child? How does a step-mother watch her daughter run for almost three hours with seemingly no concern for her well-being?

How do you explain anyone being fucked in the head? It's almost universally because they were treated in a similiar fashion as children. Anger leads to normalisation, leads to rationalisation, leads to justification, leads to the victim becoming the abuser. You'll see plenty of examples of it here, of kids who were smacked as a child and are now pro-smacking because "It didn't do me any harm" when I'd say using violence against your kids is hardly a sign of someone thinking logically.

What is appropriate punishment for a child in situations such as these, and what is over the line? Obviously what these women did was over the line, but at what point does punishment become over the line?

Difficult to say without knowing the child but anything that would cause harm, permanently or temporarily. My girlfriend has worked in social services as a child protection officer for 15 years and has never once had to smack a child to get through to them, and these are pretty damaged kids. Violence is simply an easy resort for lazy, stupid or angry parents.

Whether the girl was forced to run by physical coercion or verbal commands, should the punishment for the two women be any different? What would you consider appropiate punishment?

Well it's definitely manslaughter, probably man 2 because it was indirect but deliberate negligence.

How were you punished as a child for poor behavior? Loking back, do you believe it was appropriate, or crossed the line?

I was only smacked once and it was by an angry prick who didn't like me because I'm not a doormat and wouldn't follow his orders like everyone else in my family. Unsurprisingly he was also beaten by his father as a child but frankly I couldn't care less. He had a chance to end the cycle of violence and he was too stupid to do it. He poisoned my family life for 18 years and I celebrated the day he died.

 

[Mustang Sally]

Part of the problem with our politically correct society is that in an effort to fit in, people try to present themselves to the world as being exactly like everyone else. Since spanking children is frowned upon today, people look to come up with alternative ways to correct their child's bad behavior. I would be surprised if this stepmother's solution was something she thought of herself, it was more likely a method she heard of someone else using.

In the past, if a child repeatedly took candy and lied about it, the usual corrective procedure was a spanking. Of course, many parents used the technique and admitted it.....while others never spanked their children.....and probably many, many others spanked their kids but said they didn't (which is probably their most effective way to correct bad behavior in a child and keep society thinking well of them).

As a child, I was spanked a few times and remembered each instance. Those punishments were never intended as a way for my parents to take out their frustrations on me; instead, they were used to correct my bad behavior. I hated the punishment but understood it. It had a purpose, whether other folks agreed with that purpose or not.

Okay, so this girl had her behavior corrected in a different way although, as I said, I doubt the stepmother thought of it herself. She didn't intend to harm the girl and surely never believed it would result in the result that ensued. Had the poor kid not suffered the seizure, no one would have had anything to say about it......and I'd wager she wouldn't have stolen candy and lied about it in the future.

Was the punishment extreme?..... Sure.
Was it stupid?.....Definitely.
Did the stepmother intend such a horrifying result?.....No.

I remember a medical show on TV in which one doctor was talking about an error he made in medical treatment which resulted in an adverse result for the patient (though not fatal). The doctor who administered the treatment said: "The patient could have died." and the other doctor said: "But she didn't.".....which seemed to indicate that the first doctor shouldn't beat himself up about his error. But just because the patient didn't die doesn't mean the first doctor shouldn't adjust his methods to guard against tragedy the next time. Results aren't everything; sometimes the path we take is the important thing. In other words, let the first doctor "spank" himself; he'll know better next time.

In this case, the stepmother will be punished to whatever extent the prosecutors can get the jury to go for. When a child is negatively effected by the actions of an adult, reason often goes out the window and we prove what caring people we are by throwing the book at the offending adult, regardless of circumstances.

The stepmother caused another person's life to end and she has to be severely punished. Personally, I can want to see her held responsible, yet feel for the agony of mind she must have suffered when she realized what she had done.

In jail or not, there'll be no more happy days in the life of this woman.

 

[Captain Morgan Freeman]

How does something like this happen? Mental illness? Blinded by anger? Resentment of the child? How does a step-mother watch her daughter run for almost three hours with seemingly no concern for her well-being? I don't think any mother or step mother or any normal human being for that matter would subject a young girl to such abuse. You have to think the step mother has some serious issues to do that to any child. Unfortunately there's no backround check for parents before they have a child and in some cases the issues or frustrations of the parent can be taken out on the child.


What is appropriate punishment for a child in situations such as these, and what is over the line? Obviously what these women did was over the line, but at what point does punishment become over the line?
Well as far as misbehaving goes, eating sweets you weren't supposed to is pretty tame and shouldn't require any further punishment then a lecture from your parents. There were a few times when i was a kid that i raided the kitchen for sweets while my parents were away, when they found out i got a given out to and had to eat salad for dinner for a week. There are much easier ways to get though to a kid and make them understand why they shouldn't do things when what they did wasn't that bad.
In my view punishment goes past then line when the child doesn't do something again because they are genuinely afraid of the punishment they may receive.

Whether the girl was forced to run by physical coercion or verbal commands, should the punishment for the two women be any different? What would you consider appropiate punishment?
They took away that child's future and filled her last moments with fear and despair. There's a special place in hell for people like that. I don't get how either of them could see the madness they were letting happen before them. Lock them up and throw away the key. Anything less is an injustice.


How were you punished as a child for poor behavior? Loking back, do you believe it was appropriate, or crossed the line?
Me and my Dad had a discussion about this on Saturday night over a few whiskeys. Whenever me or my brothers did something bad we were sent to our room and our parent's would discuss what they felt an appropriate punishment was, rather then just punish us for the sake of it they would come up with something which would make us not want to do it again(see the salad example above).
Looking back i never felt they crossed the line. My mum did hit me a few times but it was never something that stopped being sore after 10 minutes. I can count on two hands how many times i was hit, one such time was when i was playing football and walked into the house without cleaning my shoes thus covering the floor and her carpet in mud. In the heat of the moment i was struck a few times but it was never excessive and the point got through loud and clear, always fucking take off my shoes before i go into the house.

 

[jrichardson25]

How does something like this happen? Mental illness? Blinded by anger? Resentment of the child? How does a step-mother watch her daughter run for almost three hours with seemingly no concern for her well-being?

People are stupid. It could be any number of things. It could be a mental illness that caused the parent/grandparent to do that... anger... it would have to be psychologically evaluated. No concern... that one is more likely. Some people shouldn't be parents.

What is appropriate punishment for a child in situations such as these, and what is over the line? Obviously what these women did was over the line, but at what point does punishment become over the line?

Give them a swat on the ass and ground them for x amount of time. They'll get the point. Over the line is beating a child or making them do something like this. Punishment is over the line if the child is in imminent danger that could cause a severe injury or death.

Whether the girl was forced to run by physical coercion or verbal commands, should the punishment for the two women be any different? What would you consider appropiate punishment?

They need to be put in prison and forced to do hard labor. Let them spend the next ten to twenty years thinking about what they did.

How were you punished as a child for poor behavior? Loking back, do you believe it was appropriate, or crossed the line?

My mom swatted me on the ass and my dad grounded me and took away my video games. They punished me when I caused problems and then talked to me about it later and things were fine. Nothing my parents did would be considered inappropriate or crossing the line. They did what they thought was best. A little pain and time to think works wonders.