Losing Our Religion

[LSN80]

Do most remember the R.E.M. song? Of course you do. If not, here's a reminder.

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Why do I bring this up? Because according to a new Gallup poll released last Wednesday, religious influence in the United States has never been lower. In fact, 3 of 4 believe that religion is losing it's influence, 77%, the largest percentage ever.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/29/poll-america-losing-its-religion/comment-page-9/

In another survey conducted by Gallup at the same time, 75% of Americans concurrently believe that the United States could benefit from more religion. In other words, most believe that the trend of religious influence being minimalized in the United States today is a bad thing for the U.S. Gallup's Editor in Chief, Frank Newport, had the following to say regarding the recent surveys:

"It may be happening, but Americans don't like it. It is clear that a lot of Americans don't think this is a good state of affairs."

The poll numbers themselves were influenced in large part by those who attended church as compared to those who don't. 90% of Americans who attend church weekly said that America could benefit from more religion, while 58% of those who don't attend felt that way.

Religion, I believe, becomes a hot button in times of crisis. From my experience, people tend to react in one of two ways. Some turn to God in times of crisis, with no clearer example being the events of September 11th, 2001. Religious influence in the United States stood at 71% in the aftermath of the events, the highest ever in the country. On the converse, there are those who, if believers before, become jaded by crisis, and turn away from what they believe. It's a dated example, but there's no better one then that of Peter, who was Jesus' right hand man. He had promised to never abandon or deny Jesus, but when push came to shove, he did exactly that. And so do many people all over the world.

It's hard to say what's lead to the decline of religious influence in the United States. At the same time, it's hard to drive more then a few blocks where I live and not see a church. The poll gives no insight as to why religious influence is at an all-time low, so I'll leave it up to you to discuss.

Is America, in its present state, in need of more religion, or less?

What do believe has lead to the decline of religious influence in America?

Discuss.

 

[HBsam31]

I think a little more religion would be good, and that is coming from a person that isn't religious. I, like you LSN80, live in Pittsburgh and if you listened to the radio or tv today you may have heard there were eight shootings on Sunday night. We need something so why can't it be religion. I can't speak for everyone, but the reason why I soured on religion was pretty simple. My parents shoved it down my throat as a kid. I grew up Catholic, and Catholics are hardcore. From the time I was 5 until I was 15 I spent every Saturday in a Sunday school type thing memorizing prayers and being read to out of the bible. Now what kid wants to do that. Then church every Saturday night and or Sunday morning. Getting ready for first holy communion at age 8, and then on to be confirmed into the church at 12. It is the epitome of overkill. After age 16 I never set foot in a church again except to attend weddings. I didn't even get married in a church, and used a preacher of a different religion because I didn't want to go through the counseling required to get married in a catholic church. Now maybe I should base all religions on my experience with the catholic church, but you know what? I don't even want to find out anymore. From a young age we were told that you went to hell for missing church on Sunday if you don't confess. It is in the same realm as committing murder. By the way my wife grew up the same way as I did and she won't set foot in a church either. All that being said we as a people need something to bring us together because the world is rapidly becoming more and more of a cesspool. I just strongly advise against cramming it down a child's throat. It turned me off of religion for life.

 

[Remy LaCroix]

I apologize for my borderline anti-Christian rant.

My parents shoved it down my throat as a kid. I grew up Catholic, and Catholics are hardcore. From the time I was 5 until I was 15 I spent every Saturday in a Sunday school type thing memorizing prayers and being read to out of the bible. Now what kid wants to do that. Then church every Saturday night and or Sunday morning. Getting ready for first holy communion at age 8, and then on to be confirmed into the church at 12. It is the epitome of overkill.

As a kid I went to an Pentecostal church every Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, and on Sunday TWICE. I would shit bricks seeing the church goers cry themselves silly worshipping and "speaking" in tongues and claim it was the holy spirit's doing. Their ignorance was their bliss, but as I grew older and read more informed material (especially things I "shouldn't have read") I grew to despise it. To this day my animosity toward blind, religious ignorance/devotion surpasses that of a racist, white nationalist's hatred for non-whites.

I have a five year old cousin whose mother didn't let her go to a birthday party at Chuck 'e' Cheese because the mascot was the devil incarnate. It sickens me that we allow that kind of sheer stupidity to thrive under the guise of Freedom of Religion, and in my opinion less religion would be a godsend (hehe). I know I'm pigeonholing a large group all together, but I live in Texas where this type of behavior is widespread, so it really strikes a chord with me. When the local ABC affiliate promoted 666 Park Avenue online I read countless comments like "We aren't watching it because this is a Christian household!" My least favorite response to tragic events, whether human or natural, that occur many times over the course of millenia: "It's a sign that Jesus is coming." Give me a fucking break.

What do I believe has lead to the decline of religious influence in America? Knowledge and free will, not ignorance and subserviance to a fictional sovereign.

 

[Mustang Sally]

Is America, in its present state, in need of more religion, or less?

Religion plays no part in my life, yet I can understand why a lot of it can be good. It's a discipline....and many folks could use a little more of that in their lives. Despite the way many folks regard the Bible, most of it is a pretty good guide for clean, sensible living, with a lot of simple common sense mixed in with the narrative and all the miracles & stuff.

The problem is, there's a big difference between being guided by those principles....and being ruled by them; such as being told you're going to hell if you don't live by those tenets..... that's not the way to get people to willingly follow what you're giving them.

What do believe has lead to the decline of religious influence in America?

The precepts of the previous paragraph. Throughout history, people have never liked being told what they can and cannot do, but as the world evolves, it's a concept that falls out of favor more and more.

Take abortion. In the Catholic religion especially, we're not talking about being given a choice; you do it their way or go to hell (go straight to hell, don't pass go, do not collect $200). People don't dig that, even if they're lapsed Catholics. We like choices and religion often doesn't give them to us. So, we abandon religion.

While some discipline would be a good thing for folks....and religion is a discipline....they're going to have to find a way to bring it's appeal up to 21st century standards if it's gonna get back to the appeal it once held.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Did you see the last Indiana Jones movie? If not, I recommend you watch it then tell me there's a God. The first three made me a believer in something bigger than us (a Nazi's face melted), but the fourth destroyed all faith left in the world.

Religion has been a casuality of progress. It is pretty clear what damaged religion over the years. Just watch Bill O'Reilly and listen to his targets:

1. Government/Courts - government is in competition with religious organizations for recruitment. Helping the needy makes them less reliant on the church. FEMA sucks but there's only so much holy water available after a disaster to keep you alive.

2. Education/Science - teaching kids to question things is bad business for the church. Physicists at CERN and on the Big Bang Theory are making the unknown known.

3. Media - always the enemy of the church, media has grown leaps and bounds over the past 60 years with TV and the internet. It's also harder to hide secrets when information is so easily available.

4. Latin - it's a dead language.

5. Santa - when you learn that mofo isn't real how are you supposed to buy the rest of the BS your parents are selling.

6. Therapy - yes LSN80, it's your fault. Why find peace of mind at Church when I can go to a professional that will give me something helpful, drugs.

I don't know if America needs more religion. The law is pretty clear on the basic rights and wrongs. I'd hate to think giving people the fear of eternal damnation is a healthy way of keeping people from doing bad things.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Is America, in its present state, in need of more religion, or less?

What do believe has lead to the decline of religious influence in America?

Discuss.

This is much better covered in actual conversation than written word, because to truly do this justice you could write a fucking ten page thesis.

1. Less, much less. Perhaps not less, but people REALLY need to get a fucking grip on the fact that their religion has fuck-all to do with the creation of public policy. This isn't the Middle East. Get the fuck over it. The entire point of America is to be abe to do and practice however the fuck you damn well please. No on gives a shit about what the rules of your particular little social club says.

2. The same thing that has ed to various revolts, renisscances and the like over the years....People abusing religion and using it for their own personal gain and agendas, thus leading to peoples human rights being trampled upon, the people then getting sick of it, and deciding to do other things.

 

[LoudClearVoice]

Is America, in its present state, in need of more religion, or less?

What do believe has lead to the decline of religious influence in America?

Discuss.

I'll preface my response by saying I am not trying to offend anyone so I'm sorry if I have.

To answer your first question, I believe we need less religion. Right now the United States is as divided as ever. Many of the "hot button issues" have a religious argument by one side or the other. If America were to become "more religious" then I believe even less of these issues would be "resolved" and I believe there would be even MORE fighting amongst groups and over issues since those that are non-believers would become even more vocal.

As for question #2, I believe internet age has really hurt religion. Kids are smarter now and can look up (and be influenced) by nearly anything. Gone are the days of kids simply following whatever their parents believe. The smarter the people, the less and less religious they are, IMO. IMO, religion is a form of "brain-washing" and so kids who otherwise would have been "brainwashed" by their parents, are now going on the internet and finding sites (whether true or not) that debunk religious stories and they're finding sites that support science or other beliefs.

 

[Rayne]

Is America, in its present state, in need of more religion, or less?

The real question is, whose religion? The question that people often mean when they say this is, "Is America, in its present state, in need of more influence from Western Christianity, and compatible belief systems?"

OR, you could mean, "Is America, in its present state, in need of a formal code of morals besides its code of laws?"

And then, you could mean, "Is America, in its present state, in need of better structures for gathering people for organized discussion of morals?"

You've jumped into a giant can of worms here, I'm afraid. I don't consider myself a religious person, but I've studied religion extensively in my own personal search for truth. Most religions- the ones that have survived over time- follow along similar tenets, and only divide when it comes into application of rules and ritual. Listed in order of importance to religion:

1) All religions believe in something which could be described as a 'soul'; a mental part of the human which is separate but bonded to the physical.
2) Unjust destruction of that soul is against the religious code.
3) It is acceptable to destroy another soul in the defense of your own soul, but not in aggression.
4) Try not to piss other people off if you can avoid it.

Personally, for me, the problem with religion is that we discourage study of it. It's not a personal journey for people about discovering their relationship to the world they live in, but about putting on nice clothes and sitting in uncomfortable benches around a bunch of people they don't really care for.

What America needs is people who are better able to promote a moral code. If that falls under the umbrella of religion, science, politics, or whoever wants to grab it, that's fine. Right now, the people promoting our moral code are on TMZ. And to the person who picks up that load, good luck! I'm quite sure they will be run up on a cross... literally, not figuratively.

At the same time, and in a slight contradiction to that last statement, I believe that America needs LESS influence from 'god figures'. I disapprove of most organized religion for the reason that it's disempowering; it encourages the individual to give up their self in service to a leader. I'm not talking about the Jesus Christ manifestation of that; it's pervasive throughout society. We worship cult figures, celebrities, politicians, and people look to them and say 'tell me where to go'. A religious experience should be one which informs the person, 'these are the ways to get to where you want to go'. This sort of mindset had its place in our human history, but the absolutely drastically changed pace of communication over the past century (when compared to the past several millennia) will affect religious and social structures in ways that anthropologists will only be figuring out a thousand years from now. Personally, I'm hedging my bets on the empowerment of the religious individual, which is going to weaken organized religious structures.

 

[Loveless]

Is America, in its present state, in need of more religion, or less?

Less, much less, none in fact. Religion in America, at it's worst, is a weapon used for whatever purpose the holder desires, it's soulless, corporate, political & aggressive. Despite being a devoted atheist, I can respect religions around the rest of the world because they try to stay true to their principles. American religion has all the class of a drive-thru burger bar, everything is for sale.

What do believe has lead to the decline of religious influence in America?

The internet. The USA is an insular country but foreign influences started to trickle through on the message boards. Slowly enough generations of young Americans are growing up with a different voice to listen to, whereas in previous generations all you had was the community you grew up in.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Despite being a devoted atheist, I can respect religions around the rest of the world because they try to stay true to their principles. American religion has all the class of a drive-thru burger bar, everything is for sale.

That's bullshit. Americans are incredibly charitable people and much of that starts and ends with faith based organizations and people. That charity spreads home and abroad. Where is your degree in world religions? I know America and it's religious leaders and congregations have it's problems but to make such a blanket statement is ignorant. Although I'm not a religious person, I recognize all the good that is done and would like to see some examples of what other countries bring to the table that is so much more respectable.

You're picking on America because we are an easy target.

 

[Loveless]

That's bullshit. Americans are incredibly charitable people and much of that starts and ends with faith based organizations and people. That charity spreads home and abroad. Where is your degree in world religions? I know America and it's religious leaders and congregations have it's problems but to make such a blanket statement is ignorant. Although I'm not a religious person, I recognize all the good that is done and would like to see some examples of what other countries bring to the table that is so much more respectable.

You're picking on America because we are an easy target.

I had a feeling you'd take it that way which is why I added "At it's worst" as a way to avoid it coming across as a blanket criticism. There are certain things you do well, I love your sense of community but I feel it's too often exploited by your religious leaders in a really tasteless way. A little too much focus on showmanship, fund-raising and politics and not enough on a smaller more personal level.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

I had a feeling you'd take it that way

I didn't know I was so predictable.

which is why I added "At it's worst" as a way to avoid it coming across as a blanket criticism.

You're singling out religion in America against the rest of the world like some kind of expert. America has it's problems with religion:

- Branch Davidians
- Scientology
- Sister Wives
- Creed
- Ted Haggert
- the 2011 Denver Broncos
- Westboro Baptists
- Jewish Cuisine

But to compare America's what you call worst (which I don't believe you were doing) to the rest of the world makes no sense. I don't remember the Crusades starting in Oklahoma or the 9/11 highjackers coming from Nashville or the Spanish Inquisition being triggered by those Chick-Fil-A jerks.

There are certain things you do well, I love your sense of community but I feel it's too often exploited by your religious leaders in a really tasteless way. A little too much focus on showmanship, fund-raising and politics and not enough on a smaller more personal level.

How do you know this?

Btw here is what you wrote. You clearly compare America to the "rest of the world". You're not an expert on anything, have some humility.

I accept your apology.

Is America, in its present state, in need of more religion, or less?

Less, much less, none in fact. Religion in America, at it's worst, is a weapon used for whatever purpose the holder desires, it's soulless, corporate, political & aggressive. Despite being a devoted atheist, I can respect religions around the rest of the world because they try to stay true to their principles. American religion has all the class of a drive-thru burger bar, everything is for sale.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Is America, in its present state, in need of more religion, or less?

I know that many Christians, including many of those that I attend church with, do think that religion being purged in various ways has been detrimental to the country. For instance, among the most common complaint I've heard is how "God has been taken out of our schools", in that schools no longer allow prayer or even to say the Pledge of Allegiance because it's contained the word "God" in it since the 1950s. Personally, I do believe in the Separation of Church & State because the history books are packed with examples of the toxicity caused when religions & state are mingled. Even today in the Middle East, many of the countries have taken the opposite route. I'm not slamming Islam, or any other religion for that matter, but not even counting the terrorist attacks upon the United States, we've all seen enough news reports over the past decade or so detailing numerous atrocities, against women especially, due to certain laws that many claim are taken straight from Muslim holy scripture. In the United States, one problem regarding Christianity is that, just as we've seen with others who justify their actions & beliefs by citing religion, so many in this day & age are excluded. For instance, there's a church, I forget the name but I'm sure the OP knows who I'm talking about as there was a thread discussing them on this forum a month or so back, that many people want labeled as a hate group by the government. They call themselves Christians, yet they say some of the vilest and most repulsive things imaginable. Many often carry signs during protests with slogans written on them that read "AIDS is how God cures gays" or "God Hates ****". Sometimes, you'll see extremely small children carrying those signs, obviously written for them by their parents as some that've been shown on television are too young to have written it themselves. They're not the only ones calling themselves Christians who have similar beliefs. Today, people have access to pretty much any form of information on any subject right at their fingertips due to the internet and social media. The decisions of many, many young people, especially children, today can be influenced by what they're able to discover for themselves rather than what they may have been taught by their parents. I was probably 7 or 8 years old the first time I ever heard the term "***" and I heard it from a kid I went to school with. I didn't know what it was so I asked him and he said "that's a man who likes another man instead of liking a woman". He said that he'd heard his dad use that term and that **** were dirty and God hated them. I won't say that I haven't used such slurs myself when I was growing up. Not that I'm trying to make excuses but, like so many others I'm sure, I wasn't mature enough or smart enough to really know what I was doing. My parents didn't encourage me or anything, they didn't advocate hate towards anyone, but they themselves had also been taught that it was "wrong" to be gay and all that. In the Bible, it does state that homosexuality is a sin. However, it's also a sin to judge and hate other people. Far too many so called Christians do tend to forget little things like that at convenient times. According to the Bible, a sin is a sin and they aren't listed in order from most to least offensive. Everyone sins, there's simply no way around it, because we're all human. Frankly, we're a species of screw ups and always have been. I do my best not to judge anyone because that's not my place. My pastor said "God loves everyone. He doesn't go down the line and pick out who he loves and who he doesn't". He says he doesn't personally agree with homosexuality but he has no malice towards it or anyone who is gay. As I said, it's not for me to judge. That's God's decision and, if Christianity is correct, then everyone will be judged and if God lets gays into Heaven, then that's great. As I said, I don't have any malice towards them, or anyone for that matter. I'm a supporter of gay rights. Earth isn't a paradise where everything goes exactly right. We have to muddle along the best way we can and the exclusion of anyone, no matter of their color or gender or sexual orientation, etc. is not an acceptable answer to me. As a result, when it comes to religion, I don't think adding more is ultimately going to stem the tide because there are far too many who simply can't agree on what the message should be. That goes especially for politicians and lawmakers who frequently try to use religion or religious beliefs for their own agendas.

What do believe has lead to the decline of religious influence in America?

Christianity is obviously the prevailing religious belief in America and it's one that's almost always been associated with conservative, right wing politics. Doesn't mean you can't be liberal and a Christian, but most Christian organizations tend to support Republican candidates and causes. I think one reason why religious influence is declining is that a lot of old school conservatives are simply dying off. As a result, they're not being replaced with enough young people who have the same old school beliefs or that the young men & women are conservative but they're just simply not as conservative as the older generations that are dying off. During the 2012 election, there were a number of political upsets that initially seemed to be either a lock for a Republican candidate to win or a Republican was a solid favorite. Mitt Romney himself has said that he was shocked to see that not only had he lost, but he'd lost by a fairly significant margin. It wasn't as much of a margin as in the 2008 election, but still. Romney expected many states that the Republicans lost in the 2008 election to vote Republican and he expected to steal states that Democrats had carried for a long while. If I'm not mistaken, the only state the Republicans "got back" was North Carolina. Of the states that Romney won, only Texas & Georgia had more electoral votes than NC with 38 & 16 respectively to NC's 15. Various reports show that a big reason for the Democrats winning not only the Presidency but various other political races was because of female & minority voters.

I'm not saying that someone is a bad person or being Republican or any of that nonsense. The thing is, however, when it comes to even the appearance of equal rights for women and minorities, the Republican Party & right wing politics as a whole simply doesn't have a great track record. My grandfather passed away in late 2002 at age 81. He wasn't a well educated man and had to start working in coal mines when he was 8 years old in order to help support his family during extremely hard times. However, as the 2000 election was going on, he said something that I didn't really pay much attention to at the time, though I remember it. He said "Brent, unless you're a straight, white man who says he's a Christian and thinks a woman's place is at home, then you're shit outta luck when it comes to Republicans." That surprised me because I always figured him for being conservative, even though he wasn't into politics at all. He just simply called things how they looked to him. Now while I don't think it's an entirely accurate statement, of course, it's indicative of the sort of message that a lot of people get from right wing politics: that it's exclusionary. And with Christianity so closely linked to a political movement that has a reputation for being exclusionary and it's a message & reputation that many, many young people aren't willing to accept. Following the election, many Republicans came right out and said that the party was going to have to change its message and stance on some key social issues if it was ultimately going to survive. As I alluded to, a lot of old school conservatives equated their Christian beliefs into politics and, sometimes, those Christian beliefs did lead to the exclusion of many people. I think that there are far more people growing up today who simply don't share such an exclusionist view and, as a result, Christianity simply doesn't have the same political clout it once had.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

Is America, in its present state, in need of more religion, or less?

Less. Much less. The lesser, the better. What superior moral values can you pull from the Bible that can't exist without it anyway? Not one.

"If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God." - Thomas Jefferson​

Despite the false claims of Christians all over the nation who cry foul over this, this nation is not and never was a Christian nation. The very idea it was founded as such is absurd, and a blatant disregard for the lives lost fighting religious persecution from England in the first place.

Here are some more fun facts to correct common lies and deceits shared among the religious right:

The original U.S. Constitution, ratified in 1789 had ONE reference to religion under Article 6: "No religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." — so not only is there just a sole reference to religion, but it's exclusionary to begin with.

The defacto motto of the US, adopted as part of the Great Seal of the nation by an act of Congress in 1782 was "E. Pluribus Unum", which means "Out of Many, One" in Latin. It was changed 174 years later in 1956 to "In God We Trust".

The original 'Pledge of Allegiance', written in 1892 by a Baptist minister (Francis Bellamy) did not include the words "Under God". Those were again added by Congress 62 years later (1954).

Oh, and my favorite one yet — our money. The US didn't issue paper currency until 1861, and 'In God We Trust' didn't appear on it for 96 years, when it was again added by Congress in 1957.

Losing your religion? I'd argue you never had a religion to lose. At least not a state-sponsored one.

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." - Thomas Jefferson​

What do believe has lead to the decline of religious influence in America?

Education and it's incredibly powerful ability to break the bonds of servility put into place by the Government over one hundred years after it fought for independence with a war cry of Secularism, and we're better off for it to boot. There's an old adage that says that philosophy is questions which may not be answered, where religion is answers that may not be questioned. This it the fundamental problem with religion, period. It purports to know things it cannot possibly know, and is incapable of evolving due to the fact that it's very premise hinges on the infallibility of a book written by cave-dwelling Bronze-aged scribes who knew damn close to zero about quantum mechanics, geology, astronomy, etc. that's making religion more and more irrelevant by the day.

I'd also contend that this nation has has many more atheists than it's documented, but for fear of public defamation, they've been mostly mum on the fact they don't believe until very recently, where Secularism has become more of a hot-button topic. The trend of religious Americans via the census polls is dropping, but the numbers are still considered to be inflated by a number of Americans who are in fact non-believers, but who still check off the ol' Christian box out of indoctrination and social pressures that would persecute them and see them as outcasts if they were to "out" themselves against the norm.

 

[wrestlingfan]

American religion is corrupt I must say. As a Christian who believes in science, I must say I always like to separate the church and God as two different entities.

And about what Jack-Hammer said, Jesus said loves everyone even your enemies. I do think gays count as everyone.