Let's talk about.....religion.

[LSN80]

Why not? Everyone else is doing it.

Let me first say that Im not pushing one side or another with regards to religous convictions, faith, and the concept of Jesus Christ. Ive actually argued in the past the merits of religion myself on this forum. But religion is flawed. Religions often try and force people to be moral by creating rules to remove temptation or punish those who give in to it. In history, we've seen wars fought over religious rights and freedoms, haven't we?
Pascal, a 17th century French writer, phsyicist and Catholic Philosopher, said the following:

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Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.

If you desire a more updated version, here's Kirk Douglas in a late 90's interview with Esquire:

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Religion has killed millions of people. Something must be wrong.

Ive argued in the past that it was erroueous, man-interpreted religion from Scriptures that have been responsible for war. Flawed human being who mininterpreted God's law and words to deal with those of opposite beliefs through death. But sometimes, it's hard to argue when it came from the mouth of God, right?

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II Kings 2:23-24
23And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
24And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and mauled forty and two children of them.

Seems a little bit harsh doesn't it? But we've all been there. You're walking along, minding your own business, when a gang of cocky, young bastards start hurling abuse at you. Most of us would just keep walking, or maybe, yell some insults back or flip them the bird. But Elisha instead decides to take it ten step further. Invoking the name of God, he summons motherfriggin bears to come and maul the ignorant little bastards to death. But by Old Testament law, parents could do similar. If their children disrespected them through back-talk, parents could stone their children to death. Think about that for a second. The moral here? Kids, dont mess with God. Or bears will eat you.
I know, I know, when Jesus came, he abolished the OT law. He provided a way for salvation for all men through his death on the cross and subsequent ressurrection. And in place of the judgmental laws in the Old Testament, he instituted principals based on grace, mercy, and forgiveness. The New Testament is the perfect example for all to follow, as all the scriptures surrounding war were outdated Old Testament passages, correct?

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"You have heard that it was said, `Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."
"You have heard that it was said, `Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,"
Jesus, (Matthew 5:38-39,43-44)

When looking at the majority of Jesus' teachings, the emphasis is on turning the other cheek, forgiveness of those who wrong you, and prayer for redemption of those who are in sin. Look at the following passage, for example:

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John 8
3And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto Jesus a woman taken in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst,
4they said unto Him, "Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5Now Moses in the law commanded us that such should be stoned but what sayest thou?"
6This they said testing Him, that they might have cause to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground, as though He heard them not.
7So when they continued asking Him, He lifted Himself up and said unto them, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."
8And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9And they who heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the eldest even unto the last, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing in the midst.
10When Jesus had lifted Himself up and saw none but the woman, He said unto her, "Woman, where are those thine accusers? Hath no man condemned thee?"11She said, "No man, Lord." And Jesus said unto her, "Neither do I condemn thee; go, and sin no more."

Jesus taught this principles in many scenarios laid out in the Gospels. But on the same note, Jesus was put to death at age 33 by the religious leaders of Jerusalem and Rome for disobeying and blaspheming against God's law. If you look at all 4 gospels, they tell a story of Jesus' triumphant entry into Jerusalem. So where did it all go wrong? Why did the same people who were laying down palms, begging for heeling, and kneeling and worshipping at Jesus' feet just a week later vote to allow a serial killer in Barrabus out of jail, and for Jesus to be executed? Sure, they feared the Saducees and Religious leaders as well as the Romans, but Jesus' true followers followed him until the end, right?

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66 And as Peter, one of the chosen twelve was beneath in the palace, there cometh one of the maids of the high priest: 67 And when she saw Peter warming himself, she looked upon him, and said, And thou also wast with Jesus of Nazareth.
68 But he denied, saying, I know not, neither understand I what thou sayest. And he went out into the porch; and the cock crew. 69 And a maid saw him again, and began to say to them that stood by, This is one of them.
70 And he denied it again. And a little after, they that stood by said again to Peter, Surely thou art one of them: for thou art a Galilaean, and thy speech agreeth thereto. 71 But he began to curse and to swear, saying, I know not this man of whom ye speak.
72 And the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.

I know Ive gone long here, but Im trying to prove a point. The same Bible that argues for the sword, stoning of children, and the righteous taking things by force in the Old Testament has scriptures of peace, love, mercy and forgiveness in the New Testament. But the man who taught these principles, Jesus, was put to death for them. As for his disciples? Judas sold Jesus to the Pharisees for 30 pieces of silver. He couldn't even get gold for him, so he hung himself. Ten of the twelve were put to death as well, with only Jesus' "beloved disciple", John, dying of natural causes. 1 committed suicide, 10 were executed, and 1 lived a full life. Im no mathematician, but 1/12 doesn't seem to be good odds, do they? Some reward for following, eh?

I think Ive covered many of the complaints about Christianity. Death and war permeated the Old Testament, and the man who came to save us all was put to death, along with most of his followers. Before their deaths, his disciples wrote the New Testament. Paul, in 1 Corinthians 9:11 said this:

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"Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God."

Another large complaint. For most of the groups covered under unrighteousness, it fits. Further, it gives the drunkard, the thieve, and the homosexual....whoops....a chance to repent and enter the Kingdom of Heaven. But why is living an "alternative lifestyle" considered to be a sin? Why is the way someone was born, the product of their hormones, unrighteous?

Finally, I look at this. There are so many people in this world that are religious. They live a "God said it, I believe it" type of lifestyle, and believe that common sense and logic defer to the word of God. They say their Amens and Hallelujah's, sing along with the merry praise band, and leave church with a smile on their face. Until they see they're blocked in by other vehicles, and their "Joy of the Lord" turns to rage. Moreso, there are times where religion tramples all semblances of logical thinking. Would you be surprised that one of the great black leaders of our time believed this?

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Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding,
and whatever it sees it must put out of sight,
and wish to know nothing but the word of God.
Martin Luther King Jr.

I said at the beginning that this wasn't a religion bashing thread, and I meant it. But after all the examples Ive pointed out, surely it is, correct? Ive given examples of some awful things done in the name of God, some from his own Word. It didnt go so well for those who followed Jesus most earnestly, did it? People die in hurricanes, earthquakes, of hunger and malnutrition every did. Where is God in those situation? But...

The goal of this thread was to get the negatives out of the way. Even for those who don't believe in anything, I want you to give consideration to the following: Religion has done more good then harm to the World. After pointing out so many of the negatives of religion, it's time to give some credence and discussion to the positive aspects of faith, religion, and God.

Religion is highly flawed, of this there can be no doubt. But for every negative, there are positives to be found. What positives spring to mind when dealing with religion?

If you're of religious faith or persuasion, why so? If you're not, why?

Did the way you were raised influence your beliefs one way or the other?

Any other thoughts, discussion or debate surrounding this topic are welcome.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Religion is highly flawed, of this there can be no doubt. But for every negative, there are positives to be found. What positives spring to mind when dealing with religion?


Although this is gonna sound vague even though I think you shouldn't take any religion literally using it as a loose guideline can teach you how to live a happy and healthy life.

Take the 10 commandments for example, they teach you some very good things like don't lie, steal, kill, treat you parents with respect and things of that nature. All of these can be used in real life for example if you kill a person you will most likely go to jail, if you steal or lie people can lose trust in you and turn their backs on you for being that way. Although all religions are flawed there is some good to be taken from all of them. Some like Buddhism teach you about inner peace which I think is a very important trait everyone should have.

Personally I don't think heaven and hell are physical places in the afterlife, I think they refer to how your life will be if you don't follow them, like if you kill you get persecuted, put away behind bars or executed, I would say that's a living hell if I've ever heard of one. On the flip side if you are a good person good things will happen to you even if it looks like everything is shitting on you. By being a good person you may not have much in the materialistic aspect but being a good person can get people to trust and help you out through life and give you self satisfaction and happiness and that I think is more important than anything. You can have everything in the world but without happiness you can't enjoy it.


If you're of religious faith or persuasion, why so? If you're not, why?

Although I feel a lot can be learned from religion I don't follow any of them. I believe there is a higher power but I just don't think that any religion has it right or fully gets it. Religion was an easy way to control people in the old days. Even today people will believe mostly everything they hear and it was much worse, 50, 100, 1000 years ago. You tell people if you don't do this they will go to hell its easy to control them, they think if they do bad they will live an eternity of pain and suffering. One time tested fact is that fear is the best form of control. A lot can be learned from religion but if you take it too literal (like an actual heaven, hell or stories like Noah's Ark) then you defy what that book is teaching you. They are stories to tell important life lessons and nothing more, if you take it for what it is you will get much more fulfillment out of these books than if you go to church every Sunday and do the rosary every week.

Did the way you were raised influence your beliefs one way or the other?

Yes and no. I had 2 sides of my childhood on beliefs, what my dad and uncle said (who were my closest family) and what the catholic school said. According to my Catholic School I went to because I was never baptized I was going to hell and same with confession. I'm sorry but I refuse to believe if there is a god that he is gonna care where I'm at on Sundays or if I go to church at all. Some of the worst people I've ever met go to church every Sunday (one was a child beater, wife beater, drunk and child molester all wrapped into one (luckily never to me)) and some of the best people I met never once went to church, according to the Bible the douche bag is going to heaven but the nice person isn't? If god is that narrow minded frankly I don't want to go to heaven because you would have to spend your life as a narrow minded, anal piss ant.

I listened to both but at the end of the day because I was told the complete opposite from my school and my father figures it made me just make up my own mind for myself. I do what makes me happy (as long as it doesn't harm others who cares?), try to be good to people and so far it has worked well for me so why stop doing that? I say do what feels right, I did and so far have no regrets.

 

[gurvinder372]

Religion is highly flawed, of this there can be no doubt. But for every negative, there are positives to be found. What positives spring to mind when dealing with religion?
Do good, have good, be kind and share is the basis of almost every religion i have known. It teaches you faith and believing something without knowing exactly what you are believing. I would say, if you can keep all those adrenaline pumping stories, emotions and feelings from a religion, then there is nothing wrong with any religion.


If you're of religious faith or persuasion, why so? If you're not, why?
Simply because it gives me so much peace. For me, religion is not just about getting perks in return from God, though it is in a way, but its more about purifying your inner self. However, it is also, because there is a fear of some thing bad happening to me, if I drop the belief about the God. I have tried to explore and question this feeling in me, but stirring the pot hasn't given me any peace, in fact it can be real disturbing. So, now I am quite at peace with myself and just follow the routine i have been doing.


Did the way you were raised influence your beliefs one way or the other?
Absolutely yes. I have been brought up in a religious and god fearing family. My parents have always told me about the power of praying. Not that it works every time when ever i feel helpless, but praying used to be my natural reaction to any hopeless situation. Also the fact that my father usually have the answer to any religious queries and questions on faith i have had, has helped me stay in this zone.

 

[#hamler]

Religion is highly flawed, of this there can be no doubt. But for every negative, there are positives to be found. What positives spring to mind when dealing with religion?

I'm not religious in anyway, but religion can do some good. Bringing religion to a child's life may be the perfect way to raise them; don't steal, cheat, lie, treat others like you want to be treated, obey your parents etc. Kids who are brought up with religion seem a lot more disciplined then those who are not. Religion can teach anyone good values whether a believer or not.

If you're of religious faith or persuasion, why so? If you're not, why?

I'm not religious at all. I was brought up with God in my life but around 14 or so I just called bullshit. I started to think for myself. I began really thinking why it was I believed in a god? Was I scared god would kick my ass and watch me burn in hell for not believing? Was I worried life wouldn't turn out the way I wanted? I don't know exactly but I just kind of drifted apart from religion. On Sundays I would giggle to myself when I heard something crazy in church. It was just pointless for me to even try anymore.

Life went on normally. Nothing changed. My grades didn't slip. I didn't become an asshole. I wasn't lost. Pretty much religion did nothing for me. I wasn't curious about my well being, I had no questions, i pretty much had no desire for religion in my life when all religion tells me to do is "be good". I was old enough to know not to kill someone, not to steal, cheat, lie. Personally, I didn't need it anymore.

Did the way you were raised influence your beliefs one way or the other?

My Dad has two jobs. He's a manager at Wal-Mart and a preacher. My Mom follows relgion very closely. I've pretty much told you above what happened between me and relgion. I simply called "bullshit". Both my Dad and Mom know I'm an athiest. They know I don't follow or believe in God. But they are suprisingly cool with it. They treat me no different than their friends and family who are of religious faith. They don't force it on me which I'm am really thankful for. Who knows, maybe one day I may believe again. Maybe something catastrophic happens. My way of seeing things may change but right now, my life is awesome and religion has nothing to do with that.

 

[Dagger Dias]

Religion is good once you find the right one for you. I'm Christian and my faith has helped me form my personal values. The positive that come to mind about religion are that it gives you something to believe in, and a guiding light in a very dark world when you have no idea of what to do or where to go. Anytime that life's issues get me down, I have my faith to fall back on. Prayer, spending time reading scripture, and just knowing that everything happening in my life serves a purpose in the grand scheme of everything. Even if I never find out why.

The way I was raised did influence my beliefs, but that was not the only factor. The people that I met along the way helped too. I was raised by a VERY judgmental family. My parents and older sister all judge people who do not follow their path in life. My parents want everyone to be a Lutheran Christian and a Republican. My sister and brother in law want everyone to be a Catholic Christian and a Democrat. I was always caught in the middle, and people wonder why I often have a neutral view on things. I was able to see both perspectives and form my own beliefs. I am Christian but do not follow any denomination. I share my beliefs with others, but do NOT force them upon anyone or judge anyone who disagrees. It's not my place to tell them how to live, they must make that choice on their own.

People like my family give Christians negative attention. Not all of us are like that. The point is to share the beliefs and help people make better decisions, not be in cliques of only people sharing the same beliefs. That doesn't do anything to change the world for the better. Two of my best friends in college were a Pagan and a Buddhist. They respected my beliefs, and I respected theirs. We got into constant debates, but in the end I was able to help them trust in their destinies a lot more and they are both better people. Most Christians would have avoided guys such as them like the plague but I embraced them as friends and tried to help them better themselves, while sharing my beliefs in the process.

Religion is a very big deal to me because it provides me with a small ray of hope when all otherwise feels lost. I believe in the plans for my life completely and know that I am destined for a future far better for me than anything I could ever think of. Not better in the worldy sense such as wealth or fame, but better in the sense that I might make an impact in the lives of others in a way that no one else can. Everyone and everything is connected to the same ultimate plan in the end. We are but pieces of the puzzle. We don't know why we fit together the way we do, it just happens. Religion helps us see the "why's" of life a little better.

 

[JWGunslinger]

Without a doubt the number one positive that comes from religion is morals, you are taught to be a good person by not stealing or lying, being good to your neighbor and honoring your parents. Whether you are religious, don't really care or anti religion you cannot deny that these are good things being taught here. Ofcourse there are religions, factions of relgious wackos and plain stupid people who give religion a bad name, but not all of it should be pointed at when some people say that gays go to hell or if you don't follow the right religion you go to hell.

What I believe in is a god who loves all people no matter who they are or what they have done as long as they are truly sorry, one who doesn't care if you are a devout follower or a someone who's life has little religion at all. I believe that teaching from the bible or the ten commandments are great guidelines on how to be a good person and they should be treated as such, nothing more and nothing less.

I was raised in a very religious familly, my Grandpa was an Episcopal priest and my Uncle is as well, my other Uncle is plays the organ at a church in Sacramento. There was alot of religious influence in my life and upbringing, personally I think it helped make me a better person. I have drifted away from the going to church every sunday christian and have found a more comfortable view of religion, I understand good can come of it as long as it isnt radical and I believe there is a god, that is all I need and I am content with my beliefs. Call me a lazy christian, that's fine with me because that's what I am and it works for me.