Land of Confusion

[Larry]

Earlier I was surfing the sight while signed-out to see what discussion was brewing, and I noticed a thread that started out talking about Mitt Romney selection Governor Paul Ryan as his running mate, but quickly divulged into a Right Wing Politics and Ideals vs Left Wing Politics and Ideals pissing match. What I saw were people insulting each other over differing ideas about how to turn things around in this country, about what is the best course of action in the future to strengthen the American economy, create jobs, reform healthcare, etc....Now I'm not casting stones, because I myself have been guilty of the same stupidity in the past and I regret those actions, having realized some time ago that those actions don't help anyone and often put a wedge in constructive conversation and personal relations. We turn on each other and go at each others throats because we simply don't agree, and either sides opposing thoughts are so threatening, that we can't simply accept them as such and take them for attacks on our own ideologies.

Between both sides of the argument, each one discredits the other and in their eyes "proves them wrong" on their stances. I however have to ask, if both sides prove each other wrong, than who is right? If both sides are cutting the others legs out from under them, how do we collectively march forward together? If both sides are right about the other, this creates what I call a land of confusion, because if neither solution that either side promotes is correct or any blend of those solutions are appropriate courses of action, that is what we are left with, nothing but confusion about where to go and what is the right thing to do.

Another observation I made was this aloof, apathetic, jaded sense of disenchantment as it pertains to the future of the nation, those who are running to lead it, and the direction that either of those candidates would take. Now I don't believe that either man, Obama or Romney, are inherently bad people with bad intentions, or that either man is completely wrong in their aspirations and ideals. I do think however that it's dreadfully apparent that what was tried has not worked and we are in a significantly worse place now than we were four years ago based on the incredible burden of debt that we've taken on alone. I am of the mind that four more years of the current leadership would be too costly, and am welcoming a new administration to take their own approach and see if they can do a better job.

What bothers me if the fact that so many others seem so much less willing. Four years ago "Change" was the theme, the anthem, and the battle cry of the American people. But, now that tune seems to have changed. There IS this aloof, apathetic, jaded sense of disenchantment that overpowers any feelings of hope, or change, or faith that someone else will do things to improve the nation and lead us into the direction of recovery and success.

I gave Obama a real open minded chance once he took office and decided that I would hold off judgement until he actually made his moves and showed what his vision really was. At this juncture however, I do not see that his directive is helping or that it will lead to any real improvements even if he were allowed another four years. I just find it rather disheartening that people who were once so open minded to change, suddenly make an about-face so quickly because the person proposing this change isn't with the right party, or doesn't share all of the same views on social issues, or because his background isn't one that they relate with, etc...

There are a lot of misconceptions and misinformation floating around regarding presidential candidate Mitt Romney and his vision for success. I urge all of you to go to his official website and find out directly from the source what exactly his plans are before passing your judgement. I urge you to seek out the information yourself and open your mind to a new direction that you may have previously given no thought to. Many folks like myself did that very thing with President Obama and put our trust in him even though we didn't agree with him on everything. I ask of you to do the same thing with Mitt Romney and just set aside any political biases to give this man a chance. I ask you to look at the last four years and ask yourself if we are truly any better off, then ask yourself if you truly believe four more years of the same will have us any better off or worse? This isn't about Republican vs Democrat, it's about the future of the nation and what will best suit it's recovery, growth, and prosperity.

You have options laying at your feet. You can choose to go on listening to news sources, political ads, or what other people try to tell you and let all that do the thinking for you. Or, you can open your mind and take the power within your own hands and find out the facts for yourself and make an educated judgement based on that. You can continue to live in the land of confusion, or you can illuminate the path to knowledge and intelligent choice. This is my plea and my challenge to you. This election will greatly determine the course of the future, and I don't think we have the luxury of making a wrong choice this time around. Think about that, and make your decision.


[YOUTUBE]xF7HkpbLK9s[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Барбоса]

So what pertains to be a critique of the current problems in the American landscape really just boils down to "Vote Romney"

 

[One Punch Doug Crashin]

Just so you are aware, neither "choice" is good for the country. It's the same old crap being spewed from the "sides". The only real choice is that we have no choice.

 

[cawsnallthis]

You do have a choice. You can move to Spain.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Are you quoting a Genesis song?

 

[Larry]

So what pertains to be a critique of the current problems in the American landscape really just boils down to "Vote Romney"

No, not a blatant "Vote Romney" that's not exactly what I'm trying to promote. It's more like "Don't Vote Out of Ignorance" and part of making sure people aren't doing just that is by making sure they actually know more about each person and what they are presenting as their ideals and their solutions. We've had 4 years of Obama and most people have a pretty good idea about where he stands and his vision for the future, but a lot of folks DON'T seem to really know about Mitt Romney and as I said, have relied more on news sources, political adds, and what others have told them for their information. It's about people knowing what they are talking about, weighing the options, and making educated choices.

Now, I do think that if people give it a fair chance and listen, they will likely change their mind on Romney and possibly support him as a result, and part of that logic comes from the fact that as I stated; what has been tried thus far from the current administration hasn't worked, and that's apparent and obvious.

Another thing is that I am rather discouraged by the negative attitudes I've seen which come, as far as I can tell, from the sentiments that neither person is a good choice, that there are no correct solutions via the "land of confusion", and some of the misinformation that people have received. So, to try and quell some of that in-fighting I was talking about, I propose that people become more informed and educated for starters, and show more tolerance. I didn't come right out and say "show more tolerance" but that was the message within part of what I was saying in there.

Just so you are aware, neither "choice" is good for the country. It's the same old crap being spewed from the "sides". The only real choice is that we have no choice.

<-------This is how your hopelessness makes me feel. Please, be more optimistic, not for me obviously, but for yourself. If you continue on with that kind of attitude and thinking, perception becomes reality and that reaches out into other parts of your life as well. Just as I stated in the OP, my challenge to you is to go ahead, go to the source, see what Romney and Obama's actual plans are, and give it a fair chance. Check their official sites and see if either of them have anything in their plans that you agree with, that differs from the "same old crap" that's generally spewed, and if any of those plans if enacted do provide some degree of hope that things will change and turn around for the better. You don't have to, but just for yourself you should.

Are you quoting a Genesis song?

Of course, I love Genesis and Phil Collins in general. Land of Confusion is a great song and it actually does speak to our current situation if you listen to it. That's why I provided the video with the lyrics available, so you can read them and see what is actually being said, OR so you can karaoke that shit at home to own enjoyment.

 

[Larry]

So what pertains to be a critique of the current problems in the American landscape really just boils down to "Vote Romney"

I can't edit posts so I had to make another one because there was something else I was going to say that I forgot to add to my response.

I wasn't able to edit that OP either, but my overall point to calm some of the fighting was for both sides to take a chill pill and actually learn about the person they oppose. As I stated, because we've had 4 years with Obama as president a lot of people DO know quite a bit about him, which isn't the case with Romney. But, even people opposed to Obama, go to his official site, and see what his actual ideas are or what he is proposing too. It's important to know both sides of the argument, and to be familiar with both ideologies, because that is how you can then find a common ground on those ideologies and with other people. You can find the medium on what actually could, would, or will work rather than blindly endorsing either side that opposition quickly shoots down or "proves wrong".

 

[Nate DaMac]

I'm voting for Obama because he's black.

 

[Larry]

I'm voting for Obama because he's black.

Well at least you're honest, and you join a large group of people who did the same thing.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

I'm voting for Obama because he's black.

Yes, as a white person I voted for him out of guilt like all other white people. This election I might vote differently if the Republicans change course and put up a Native American or a Ginger.

 

[Nate DaMac]

Yes, as a white person I voted for him out of guilt like all other white people. This election I might vote differently if the Republicans change course and put up a Native American or a Ginger.

I didn't even vote last time, I slept too late. The guilt has stuck with me for 4 years, time to repent.

 

[shattered dreams]

I like a lot of what you wrote their Larry but I don't think I follow your conclusion. I think one of the biggest issues faces this country is the lack of action because most of our issues cannot be solved in ways that are popular with voters. Yes people voted for change with Obama, then two years later they voted for change again in the mid term elections. All people know is that they are dissatisfied with the present so they just keep waffling back and forth since it is easy to convince 60% of the country that any specific action is bad. This just exacerbates the problems. Making economic cycles the most important political factor is just stupid. Personally I think the problem is people are caught up in this illusion of change by switching back and forth between the parties. I agree people should educate themselves on Romney but I don't agreed with the idea that Obama should be discredited any more than his opponent for what has gone on the past 4 years. What you haven't shown is that the country is any worse off than it would have been no matter who was president.

The two party system has failed. The biggest asset such a system is supposed to have is smooth transitions that provide additional stability. That doesn't describe what has happened this millennium. When our debt gets downgraded specifically from instability then it baffles me how many people are still trying to pretend this system will work. The status quo is likely to be disastrous but we are doomed to it as long as the masses yield to tradition.

 

[Larry]

I like a lot of what you wrote their Larry but I don't think I follow your conclusion. I think one of the biggest issues faces this country is the lack of action because most of our issues cannot be solved in ways that are popular with voters.

Completely agreed. Also realize I was working within the current framework as well, with what is available at the moment. Indeed action is what is truly necessary. For instance, I recently read that the expected voter turnout for the upcoming election is only about 50-60% of registered voters, and only about 70% of the population is registered to vote anyways. So that means approximately 35% of the total population will be determining the election. To take it further, that percentage is split at least in half so call it 17%, then account for third party voters and for the sake of argument say they account for about 5% of the vote, that's only 12% of the actual population determining the vote, simply because they show up. Even if those numbers aren't quite accurate, what they illustrate IS, that it's only a small group of people who actually go out and ACT that make change happen.

Yes people voted for change with Obama, then two years later they voted for change again in the mid term elections. All people know is that they are dissatisfied with the present so they just keep waffling back and forth since it is easy to convince 60% of the country that any specific action is bad. This just exacerbates the problems.

Well called, well played, and you hit the nail right on the head. A little decisiveness and consistency would be a great help to everybody. You make a good point too about how this occurs since it's easy to convince "X" amount of people any specific action is bad.

Making economic cycles the most important political factor is just stupid. Personally I think the problem is people are caught up in this illusion of change by switching back and forth between the parties. I agree people should educate themselves on Romney but I don't agreed with the idea that Obama should be discredited any more than his opponent for what has gone on the past 4 years. What you haven't shown is that the country is any worse off than it would have been no matter who was president.

But in all fairness there isn't much I can do TO prove that because no one else WAS president. Now I can argue that had John McCain been elected there are certain things he certainly wouldn't have done, and other things he would have done or tried to do, but what you are asking is a rather daunting task, all circumstances considered. The one thing I feel I can say with confidence is that John McCain would not have allowed the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 to happen. That would have been a lot of debt we didn't take on, which for obvious reasons would mean we were better off since we wouldn't hold that debt. His approach to many of the other issues on the table would obviously have differed from that of Obama as well, and to that sentiment I'd say there's no telling how much better off we would have been had he won.

The two party system has failed. The biggest asset such a system is supposed to have is smooth transitions that provide additional stability. That doesn't describe what has happened this millennium. When our debt gets downgraded specifically from instability then it baffles me how many people are still trying to pretend this system will work. The status quo is likely to be disastrous but we are doomed to it as long as the masses yield to tradition.

I can't speak too much to that. What feasible alternative is there? And I'm asking that genuinely. We see the issues with a two party system, so what if we're talking about three parties, or four, or even ONE? I know a country with a one party system, China, and that country is literally powerless to it's government, more so than folks like to imagine they are oppressed by our government. And if there were three or more parties? How difficult might that be to get all those bodies to agree and get stuff done when we see the difficulty of getting just two to agree? I just don't see what else we could do. Please, if you have any ideas, enlighten me. I'd love to hear this stuff.

 

[Muffin Top Merkley]

When people debate with each other, rarely do they do so with an open mind. Usually, it is because people do not like learning new things. Instead, they like knowing all things. If you think you know it all, you will not listen to the other side. Which tends to happen quite a bit. So debates tend to never move people from one side to another, but instead just ingrain people deeper in their beliefs.

When I was in University, I had a radio show where I discussed politics, amongst other things. I knew everything in the world, and was always right. Especially about health care and municipal government. Then after that I worked in both fields, and now I know nothing. I am far more humble about it than I used to be.

Thing is, now my personal discussions are not so much about "theoretical ideals" but just overall improvements.

Let's take government spending as a point. We all want to reduce deficits. So what do we do? Well we want to eliminate welfare or just raise taxes on the rich to 90%. Thing is, most likely neither will work and just add to our problems. If you eliminate welfare, crime will go up, and new costs will be created on that side. If you increase taxes of the rich to an absurd amount, you will decrease growth, and thus reduce the tax base. This makes sense, as most of these ideas are broad strokes that tend to never work. While we yell and scream about these major ideological shifts, the practical solutions are ignored and the problem continues to get worse.

As for political issues, the US is no longer in position where Congress works. Thus, whoever you make President cannot solve it. With two parties, you have the extremist select the two politicians to run against each other, then the moderates vote on who is the least fucked up. I really admire how the US was formed. It was a real inspiration for the world and helped moved toward democracy. But it was one of the first modern democratic systems to be developed and is now old, stale and just does not make sense. It is time to update the way the system is done.

Entrenching ideas does not solve problems. It just gets people arguing over who is right and who is wrong. There is no reason whatsoever why smart human beings cannot work together to develop real solutions.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

I didn't even vote last time, I slept too late. The guilt has stuck with me for 4 years, time to repent.

Your vote is meaningless, sleep is far more important. Save the repetance for all that masterbating and coveting your neighbor's wife.

 

[Барбоса]

The big obstacle for any US president is the importance of mid term elections. They ensure, especially in a time of change/need, that the needed changes get brought in because the fear of change, even needed change, means that the electorate can cut the legs out of a government when it shouldn't.

Essentially, the US electorate has become inherently reactionary.

With the mess that Obama inherited, a mess that had yet to reveal its full extent, he needed a term of unbroken control to give his programme of change any chance of actually being implemented, but fear of change, preyed upon by Republicans, destroyed almost any chance he had.