King of the Ladder Match

[TheOneBigWill]

On Raw, Shawn Michaels made a statement that didn't honestly sit well with me. He said that he's what most (or some) would consider the guy who made the ladder match what it is, and basically took all the credit for it being famous and worth anything. This is my argument.

Scott Hall (Razor Ramon) has actually been in MORE Ladder matches than Shawn Michaels. According to wiki (I realize the source isn't always guaranteed) Scott Hall and Shawn Michaels had their original two (now famous) ladder matches from Wrestlemania X and Summerslam 1995.

While Shawn Michaels has competed in the unofficial first ladder match in 1992, against Bret Hart he also went on to compete in a ladder match during his "3 Stages of Hell" match against Triple H., in December of 2003. Scott Hall had actually competed in a ladder match in 1999, against Bill Goldberg as well as Bam Bam Bigelow. So that has them tied record-wise for stats I actually KNOW happened.

According to wiki (again, not 100%) Razor Ramon is said to have had a ladder match against Jeff Jarrett in 1995. So the question and the strong debate needs to be asked.. why is Shawn Michaels being praised so highly, as if he's the only guy that made the ladder match famous.. when the same individual that arguably helped make him famous IN that match, has had more of "his" match(es) than he has?

Two individuals and an object are involved in making this whole subject discussion worthy and arguable. My question is, is Shawn Michaels truly the "king" of Ladder matches, or is Razor Ramon (Scott Hall) the uncrowned leader of the Ladder? OR, could it be neither of them are what made the ladder match.. but instead, the ladder match.. made them? (that's an option thrown in specifically for Jake )

Please add your opinion, and feel free to even add possible others to the mix, however this truly is a main debate on whether or not Razor Ramon deserves equal or more credit for the Ladder match, than Shawn Michaels does.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

I don't think HBK is the King Of The Ladder match. I don't think the guy has had enough of them to call himself that. Possibly the innovator, but that's still stretching it.

But while Razor deserves some credit, obviously HBK couldnt have done those matches on his own. He's not the most important factor in those two matches. You could have replaced him with Kevin Nash he's that unathletic in them. It's the HBK & Ladder show. He bumps, the ladder falls, so on and so forth. I guess you can say Hall links it all together. But it's not the same as doing that in a regual match. Ladders are about spots. They can have psychology, but really it's about falling off the thing.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Not more. Why? Because every single one of Shawns ladder matches has been of a higher quality than Ramon's have.

I'm not taking a lot of credit away from Ramon here, he has had a few good ones. But Shawn is the 'king' of ladder matches because all of the ones he has been in have been great. Better matches, better storylines going into the matches. His are more memorable. It's possible it simply seems that way because Shawn is still wrestling today, and we hear about his matches more. So to say for definite we'd have to wait until Shawn has retired. Even then it'd be tricky.

The ladder match did not make either of them though. Shawn would have been great without those matches. They're not all he's known for. They didn't particularly kick start his career either.

 

[agentmichaelscarn]

I actually always considered Edge to be the king of the ladder matches. Between all the TLC matches he participated in and the multiple Money in the Bank matches including a victory in one he's always the guy that comes to mind when I think of ladder matches. But you're right about HBK and Razor, Shawn definitely gets more credit then he deserves for ladder matches considering he was only 1 half of that infamous match and he actually ended up losing it. Just like he isnt Mr. Wrestlemania like WWE calls him he also isnt the king of the ladders either.

 

[HBK-aholic]

I actually always considered Edge to be the king of the ladder matches. Between all the TLC matches he participated in and the multiple Money in the Bank matches including a victory in one he's always the guy that comes to mind when I think of ladder matches. But you're right about HBK and Razor, Shawn definitely gets more credit then he deserves for ladder matches considering he was only 1 half of that infamous match and he actually ended up losing it. Just like he isnt Mr. Wrestlemania like WWE calls him he also isnt the king of the ladders either.

I agree with this in a way; with your reference to Edge and TLC. But I think the TLC is a slightly different concept to the ladder matches. I love Edge, and I think his matches are amazing. I'm not big on his history, however I can't remember him being in a big ladder match competing against only one person. If we did see more of him in those sorts of matches, I have no doubt he could be seen as the 'King' of the matches.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Not more. Why? Because every single one of Shawns ladder matches has been of a higher quality than Ramon's have.

The thing is, how can you say Shawn Michaels has had higher quality in ladder matches than Razor Ramon, when the only main two H.B.K. is known for.. are the two AGAINST Razor Ramon?

People will remember Scott Hall v. Goldberg from 1999 a lot quicker than they'll recall Triple H. v. H.B.K. in a 3 Stages of Hell that involved a ladder, but wasn't what I'd consider a full ladder match.. OR the 'invisable' match that was against Bret Hart, that was literally NEVER known of until the Ladder match DVD came out.

I'm not taking a lot of credit away from Ramon here, he has had a few good ones.

You kinda just did though. You claimed H.B.K. didn't need to have more ladder matches to be the King, because the few that he did have, make him better due to better quality.. when in fact, again, 2 of the 4 (one is a technical issue since it wasn't fully a ladder match anyways) were against Ramon to begin with.

You're basically saying Shawn Michaels carried Razor Ramon through both ladder matches and that's why H.B.K. deserves to be considered the king.

But Shawn is the 'king' of ladder matches because all of the ones he has been in have been great. Better matches, better storylines going into the matches.

Wrong. The two he had with Razor Ramon would have to be considered "default" so the only two you could use were the loss against Hart, or the loss against H.H.H.

The funny thing is, H.B.K. is 1-3 in ladder matches. How does being a loser in the match, make you the king of it?

Futhermore, as I've pointed out.. the Hart Ladder match from 1992 was basically "not known of" until the Ladder match DVD, and the 2003 version against Triple H. was in a match that focused on the first two gimmick matches before the final 3rd match, that wasn't anything more than H.B.K. doing one spot off the ladder, than lead to him losing.

His are more memorable.

Again, you'd have to consider his matches against Ramon either tied between them, or default in general.

So that leaves his 1992 version against Hart, which was basically never known of until a year or so ago.. and his 2003 version against Triple H., which shouldn't even technically count to begin with because it was a 3 stages of hell match, not a pure and full ladder match.

It's possible it simply seems that way because Shawn is still wrestling today, and we hear about his matches more. So to say for definite we'd have to wait until Shawn has retired. Even then it'd be tricky.

I would argue that Shawn Michaels will forever be known as the guy who is above Razor Ramon in ladder matches because not just the fact the ladder match was truly made famous in the W.W.F/E., but also because of the fact that Razor Ramon's career wasn't as dependable and built off the success of the ladder match, as Shawn Michaels' career was.

The ladder match did not make either of them though.

It certainly helped push Shawn into another level a lot more than it did for Razor Ramon. Again, why would H.B.K. even be remotely considered the guy who made ladder matches famous.. if it didn't help his career in a major way?

Shawn would have been great without those matches.

Arguably so, but you can't deny the amount of success those matches gave him. Nor can you deny the amount of push from him making it big in that type of match, that helped him move up in the rankings.

Razor Ramon had a Heavyweight Championship match in 1993, roughly monthes after debuting. He never had a ladder match help push that. While it could be said that Shawn Michaels had his first Heavyweight Championship in 1992, now that the ladder match from the same time frame has come into light.. it's arguable that the company didn't like the way both men worked in that match.. which turned them to giving H.B.K. his Main Event spot at the 92 Survivor Series.

They're not all he's known for.

No, the ladder match is definately not all Shawn's known for.. but it's one of the first big things he's accomplished and become known for.

They didn't particularly kick start his career either.

I would argue to say they infact did. His loss in 1994 most likely pushed people to see how good he truly was, in all the risks he took. H.B.K. didn't out shine Ramon, he out spotted him. That entire 1994 match is one big H.B.K. ass whipping. He was tossed all over the ring, and the ladder followed. That made him look more durable, stronger even.

His first ladder match victory in 1995, over the guy that beat him their first go around helped finally push Shawn back into the Main Event scene, albeit because of Kevin Nash and Sid Vicious he would've gotten there shortly there-after anyways.

Still, you're acting as if the ladder had almost NO effect on helping create the legend and legacy that is Shawn Michaels.. yet you want to turn around and call him the king of a match he's only won 1 outta 3 times in..

 

[TheOneBigWill]

I agree with this in a way; with your reference to Edge and TLC. But I think the TLC is a slightly different concept to the ladder matches. I love Edge, and I think his matches are amazing. I'm not big on his history, however I can't remember him being in a big ladder match competing against only one person. If we did see more of him in those sorts of matches, I have no doubt he could be seen as the 'King' of the matches.

He competed in a one-on-one ladder (T.L.C.) match earlier this year. And a T.L.C. match is blatantly nothing more than a ladder match with the acknowledgement of Tables and Chairs being at ringside. So you can't say they're different.

Edge defeated the Undertaker this year. He defeated Ric Flair in 2006 on Raw. He lost to John Cena. He defeated Christian in a ladder match in 2001. (I was there) He's 3-1 in single's "high profile" ladder matches.

Edge and Christian won 3 Ladder/T.L.C. matches as well, which adds 3 more victories to his list. They also lost in the debut of the Tag Team Ladder match to the Hardys, which could go against him if you like.

Then you count the Money in the Bank match he won, and the one he didn't. So that's one more for each column. By my count, that's roughly 7-3. (meaning Edge has been in 10 Ladder(ish) matches without checking to see if any lesser known ones happened)

Honestly, Edge would be better served to be considered the true "King" of ladder matches because not only has he been in more, but his win/loss record in them is in his favor, not against him like it is with Shawn Michaels.

 

[Enigmania]

The only one-on-one ladder matches Edge has had was against Christain and Matt Hardy (correct me if I'm wrong) as his ones with The Undertaker, Ric Flair & John Cena were all TLC matches.

To be honest HBK can't call himself King of the Ladder matches. Innovator maybe but not King. Same with Razor Ramon although calling him an Innovator would make as much sense as calling Tommy Dreamer the Innovator of Violence just now.

All in all I see Edge as the King of the Ladder matches - he's competed in many of them and 1 of them (MITB) propelled him to the Main Event. You could argue the Ladder Match made Edge with his TLC's and Triangle Ladder Match but everytime he gets a ladder it's entertaining.

 

[Canadian Knight]

I think that of anyone who should be "crowned" it should be Edge. He may have had few single Ladder matches, but as a tag team he had alot....I think. And you can also count TLC matches because you had to use a ladder for them. Edge and Christian had a few good matches using ladders and they were dynomite. And also remember that it was Stu Hart's idea and it was Bret that told Vince about the idea.

 

[HBK-aholic]

What have I told you about replying to my posts?

The thing is, how can you say Shawn Michaels has had higher quality in ladder matches than Razor Ramon, when the only main two H.B.K. is known for.. are the two AGAINST Razor Ramon?

People will remember Scott Hall v. Goldberg from 1999 a lot quicker than they'll recall Triple H. v. H.B.K. in a 3 Stages of Hell that involved a ladder, but wasn't what I'd consider a full ladder match.. OR the 'invisable' match that was against Bret Hart, that was literally NEVER known of until the Ladder match DVD came out.

I disagree. Hall Vs. Goldberg is kind of crap. Compared to what he did in his match with Shawn, that one seems like a futile attempt at recreating it. In the same, the rest of Shawns matches would probably also be trying to recreate his with Ramon, as those were the best ladder matches I've seen. But I think what I've seen of Shawns other ladder matches are better than what I've seen of Ramons.

You kinda just did though. You claimed H.B.K. didn't need to have more ladder matches to be the King, because the few that he did have, make him better due to better quality.. when in fact, again, 2 of the 4 (one is a technical issue since it wasn't fully a ladder match anyways) were against Ramon to begin with.
You're basically saying Shawn Michaels carried Razor Ramon through both ladder matches and that's why H.B.K. deserves to be considered the king.

I don't remember saying Shawn carried Ramon, I definitely don't believe that. I'm simply saying I think Shawns matches are of better quality.

Wrong. The two he had with Razor Ramon would have to be considered "default" so the only two you could use were the loss against Hart, or the loss against H.H.H.

The funny thing is, H.B.K. is 1-3 in ladder matches. How does being a loser in the match, make you the king of it?

Winning a match doesn't mean that much IMO. Some call Shawn Mr. Wrestlemania. Whether he is or not is for a different debate at a different time, but even being mentioned is an accomplishment, especially after losing most of them. My point? He doesn't need a win for it to be remembered a great match.

Futhermore, as I've pointed out.. the Hart Ladder match from 1992 was basically "not known of" until the Ladder match DVD, and the 2003 version against Triple H. was in a match that focused on the first two gimmick matches before the final 3rd match, that wasn't anything more than H.B.K. doing one spot off the ladder, than lead to him losing.

The Hart match is good. Instead of simply saying it wasn't known of to you until before that DVD, what did you think of the match overall? It was good, yeah?

Again, you'd have to consider his matches against Ramon either tied between them, or default in general.

So that leaves his 1992 version against Hart, which was basically never known of until a year or so ago.. and his 2003 version against Triple H., which shouldn't even technically count to begin with because it was a 3 stages of hell match, not a pure and full ladder match.

You repeat things more than I do LOL.

3 Stages of hell I believe should count, because it was a separate match. It wasn't something such as a TLC. There was a ladder match, it just happened to come after 2 other matches.

I would argue that Shawn Michaels will forever be known as the guy who is above Razor Ramon in ladder matches because not just the fact the ladder match was truly made famous in the W.W.F/E., but also because of the fact that Razor Ramon's career wasn't as dependable and built off the success of the ladder match, as Shawn Michaels' career was.

I don't think the ladder match was the foundation of Shawn's career though.

It certainly helped push Shawn into another level a lot more than it did for Razor Ramon. Again, why would H.B.K. even be remotely considered the guy who made ladder matches famous.. if it didn't help his career in a major way?

He'd still be as great as he is today without the ladder matches, which is my point. He is known as the guy who made ladder matches famous, I assume, because more people thought he did a better job than Ramon in them.

No, the ladder match is definately not all Shawn's known for.. but it's one of the first big things he's accomplished and become known for.

It was one of the first things. But it's not the only.

I would argue to say they infact did. His loss in 1994 most likely pushed people to see how good he truly was, in all the risks he took. H.B.K. didn't out shine Ramon, he out spotted him. That entire 1994 match is one big H.B.K. ass whipping. He was tossed all over the ring, and the ladder followed. That made him look more durable, stronger even.

Indeed. But he still would have had shots at the championships etc without being in this match. WWE allowed Shawn to be in that first match. If he didn't have a good reputation already, the would have chosen someone else.

 

[Shocky]

Out of the Original two, there is a very simple reason as to why HBK is more well known as opposed to Razor Ramon. It's the wonderful thing that I get criticized for, yet I speak the truth, it's called revisionist history, and the WWF is the key to that.

The reason Shawn Michaels is now more well known is because the WWF won the war. Until 1996, neither one of these guys was billed more then the other as the king of the ladder match. It wasn't until 1998 when the Triple H vs. Rock Ladder Match at Summerslam was coming along when Shawn Michaels became known as the king of the Ladder Match. It's marketing, plain and simple.

When the WCW Souled Out match came along in January of 1999, WCW did the same thing, they billed Scott Hall as the innovator and king of the Ladder war. It's Viral Marketing/Advertising War. The only difference, the WWE won the war, and WCW has since faded. If Scott Hall stayed with the WWF and Shawn Michaels went to WCW, then Scott Hall would be known as the King of the Ladder Matches.

Regardless, it's a silly debate, because when I think of Ladder Matches, neither of these two come to mind. I easily put the likes of Christian, Rob Van Dam, Jericho, Benoit, Jeff Hardy and Edge above the likes of Michaels and Ramon when it comes to ladder matches. The 7 guys I listed have had better and more impressive Ladder Matches then Michaels or Hall could have ever have hoped to put on.

 

[ChrisJerichoFanYTWOJAY]

I would have to say a tie between Edge and Jeff Hardy. Both these men have had amazing ladder matches in their career. Does anyone remember the Jeff Hardy/Undertaker ladder match. That match actually had me believing that Hardy could of won the championship. Im not gonna go too deep into the Edge/Christian/Hardy Boyz ladder matches because we all know the history. HBK may have been the inovator of the ladder match but he is not the best. When the envelope opens it should read Edge and Jeff Hardy.

 

[ExtremeSwagga93]

I voted other. Jeff Hardy is the king of the ladder match. (I'm not trying to sound like a mark by the way) But look at it, all the memorable ladder match moments have come from Jeff Hardy. Whether it's doing leg drops off of ladders onto someone on a table, or flipping off of them, all of the ladder matches he's been in are memorable. (except maybe for the one he had against Taker for the Undisputed title). I don't think it would be correct to call either Michaels or Ramon the king of the ladder match, although both of them were in the first one in WWE history, others such as Hardy and Edge made them famous in my opinion.

 

[Dead Kennedy]

Jeff Hardy or Rob Van Dam. Jeff Hardy is a freakin' master of Ladder matches - introducing foreign objects to his style works perfectly. And it got even better when he started adopting a more grounded style. His ladder match with Carlito at the Raw XV Anniversary Show? One of my favourite TV matches of 2007. I'm still hoping for him to win next year's MITB if he doesn't win the WWE Championship either before or at WM XXV.

Rob Van Dam also kicks ass in the Ladder matches. Like Jeff, it appears to be completely natural to him. Although his matches are not as memorable as many of Jeff's (that's all of his matches in general, really) he's still dam(n) good. I didn't like the WM22 MITB match though, for some reason. Nearly everyone else in that match looked better and deserved the win more, in my opinion.

 

[Richard]

The only reason Shawn Michaels is called the 'king' of ladder matches is because on the current WWE roster, out of everyone still employed, he was the first in the ladder matches in WWE's history. Besides that, there is nothing else that can make HBK the real king of ladder matches.

His ladder match record stands at 1 win/ 3 losses, 4 losses if you count the ladder match in 3 stages of hell against Triple H.

If anyone was to be called 'king' of the ladder match, it should by all rights, be Edge.

Edge's Ladder Match History (According to Wikipedia):

1. New Brood (Matt and Jeff Hardy with Gangrel) defeated Edge and Christian in the final of Terri Invitational Tournament to win the managerial services of Terri Runnels and $100,000 - No Mercy, October 17, 1999, Cleveland, OH.

2. Edge and Christian defeated The Hardy Boyz and The Dudley Boyz (Bubba Ray and D-Von) to win the WWF Tag Team Championship - WrestleMania 2000, April 2, 2000, Anaheim, CA.

3. Edge & Christian defeated The Hardy Boyz, and The Dudley Boyz to retain the WWF Tag Team Championship - Tables, Ladders, and Chairs, SummerSlam
August 27, 2000, Raleigh, NC.

4. The Hardy Boyz defeated Edge and Christian to retain the WWF Tag Team Championship - RAW is WAR, September 25, 2000, State College, PA.

5. Edge & Christian defeated The Hardy Boyz, and The Dudley Boyz to win the WWF Tag Team Championship - Tables, Ladders, and Chairs, WrestleMania X-Seven, April 1, 2001, Houston, TX.

6. Chris Benoit & Chris Jericho defeated The Hardy Boyz, The Dudley Boyz and Edge and Christian to retain the WWF Tag Team Championship - Tables, Ladders, and Chairs, SmackDown!, May 24, 2001, Anaheim, CA.

7. Edge defeated Christian to win the WWF Intercontinental Championship - No Mercy, October 21, 2001, St. Louis, MO.

8. Edge defeated Chris Jericho, Shelton Benjamin, Chris Benoit, Christian (w/Tyson Tomko) and Kane - Money in the Bank, WrestleMania 21, April 3, 2005, Los Angeles, CA.

9. Edge defeated Matt Hardy in a Loser Leaves Raw Money in the Bank ladder match - WWE Homecoming, October 3, 2005, Dallas, TX.

10. Edge defeated Ric Flair to retain the WWE Championship - Tables, Ladders and Chairs, WWE Raw, January 16, 2006, Raleigh, NC.

11. John Cena defeated Edge to win the WWE Championship - Tables, Ladders, and Chairs, Unforgiven, September 17, 2006, Toronto, Ontario.

12. Mr. Kennedy defeated Edge, CM Punk, King Booker, Jeff Hardy, Matt Hardy, Finlay and Randy Orton - Money in the Bank, WrestleMania 23, April 1, 2007, Detroit, MI.

13. Edge defeated The Undertaker to win the vacant World Heavyweight Championship - Tables, Ladders, and Chairs, One Night Stand, June 1, 2008, San Diego, CA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladder...in_World_Wrestling_Federation.2FEntertainment

Edge's record in ladder matches is 8 wins - 5 losses with 5 being in singles competition and 3 in tag team competition. Much better than Shawn Michaels record wouldn't you say?

 

[wrestlingfan701]

Yes, Shawn has done hardly anything in ladder matches compared to Jeff Hardy, Edge and a few others. But, the reason Jeff Hardy is talked about in WWE as the other king of the ladder match and not Edge is just because they say his specialty match is TLC, that's it.

 

[Stickstar 16]

Yeah, i think Edge deserves credit for being good in those ladder matches, but as has been said, his specialty is really tlc, with the whole con-chair-to thing. I think Jeff Hardy fully deserves the title of King of the Ladder matches, if not only for being a super crazy spot monkey. Maybe it was the drugs that helped but who knows. the fact is Jeff (and Matt, who played his role without completely fucking himself up) helped to redefine and innovate the ladder match, they did things with ladders that make you cringe just thinking about it, and it is truly one of the things that defined his career, from spot-fests with E & C, to the match against the Undertaker, which prob gave him on of his bigger pushes

 

[George Michael]

HBK as 'Godfather' of the ladder match.

Looking at some of the stats, I would argue that not only did this make his career, but his ladder matches have been more influential and important.

- At Wrestlemania X the ladder match stole the show, and Ramon didn't face Diesel for the WWF title the following year, Shawn Michaels did.
- Short of the inaugural ladder match (That also featured Shawn Michaels) all of Shawn's ladder matches have been for a major title, not a briefcase. Back in 1994 titles weren't just awarded and they actually had significance.
- (Personal note) In 1996 I saw Shawn defend his WWF Title in a ladder match against Goldust at the CNE in Toronto. I'm not sure how many times Edge or Ramon have battled in a ladder match at House shows, but to do this even one time is damn impressive.

 

[notorious102]

Bret Hart is the one who came up with the whole ladder match idea.... So if anything then it would be him, not Shawn .... Just another thing that Shawn screwed Bret over on. No I'm not even a Bret fan either !