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KB Answers Wrestling Questions

The matches still weren't good. It doesn't mean that's a compliment to Taker.

Agreed.

Fred Ottman gets on TV about once a year. Not for being Tugboat, but for wearing a glittery stormtrooper helmet and falling through a wall. That doesn't mean it's a positive thing.

But Giant Gonzalez get's referenced purely for his work against 'Taker. Why? Because that's the most memorable.

That would be incorrect.

What match was better and provide why you think so.

That's just funny.

Their match was horrible. I certainly don't think that it's a match that Bret will be remembered for.

If by pointing out that you said something that holds true for them as well means comparing, then yes I am.

Well Eugene and Hillbilly Jim certainly won't be remembered for much. If Santino is remembered in the future then great. I'm talking about how well 'Taker did in the early part of his career.

Indeed I have. Bundy's certainly wasn't with Taker. Gonzalez's certainly wasn't with Taker. Kamala never had anything you could call good.

Well Bundy's wasn't against Hogan at WM 2 that's for sure. What else is Gonzalez remembered for and I'll give you Kamala.

I never was a fan of his Austin series but the rest is true. As for that, all it says to me is that Taker back then needed someone good to give him a good match.

Well quality of opponent certainly does matter does it not. I'm sure that Shawn Michaels wouldn't have been able to do much better with those opponents.

Actually he did. The Attitude Era started when he didn't mean much and he was top heel to Austin for about 6 weeks. The AE was about Austin, Vince and DX far more than anyone else.

I'm sure that the Attitude Era was about those particular people; however, 'Taker's feuds with Kane and Mankind had something to do with the Attitude Era.

Then I'd suggest you get some mouthwash, because Hogan is exactly where I'm going. His two best matches: vs. Hogan and Savage, as in guys smaller than him. Based on the idea that playing the smaller one goes against this, Taker's matches with Big Show, Kane, Khali and Gonzalez can't be counted then as they're all bigger than him. Also if you believe match quality means jack, you're wrong again.

Hogan is a complete cop out and no I don't think that match quality means jack.

Hogan and Austin are a good place to start. Rock would be up there too as the loud mouthed jock. A gimmick lasting a long time doesn't really mean much either. Also let's take a look at Taker's gimmick that has "lasted so long."

1990-1992: Mortician.

1993-1995: Monster Hunter

1996-1998: Crazy whackjob that wanted to kill Foley.

1998-1999: Demon

2000-2003: Biker

2004-2006: Zombie with powers

2007-present: Tall MMA Leather Enthusiast

Taker's gimmick has changed a lot over the years. his name is all that's stayed the same.

But he's kept the same basic concept and if you think that he wasn't a zombie with powers during the early part of his career then your crazy or you're just trying to argue for the sake of it. All he changed before he became the American Bad Ass was his attire.

So your source is the same that still says Pat Patterson won a tournament in Rio for the IC Title. Got it.

You're damn right. I'll take their word for it before I would your own.

Don't remember saying that but whatever.

Oh you definitely said it. Go back and look if you will. You were talking to that Vega guy.
 
But Giant Gonzalez get's referenced purely for his work against 'Taker. Why? Because that's the most memorable.

Again, memorable does not mean good. It certainly doesn't here.

What match was better and provide why you think so.

Let's see.

Opener
Steiners vs. Headshrinkers
Bret vs. Yoko

And because they were but together better, not nearly as sloppy, and didn't have a guy who was 7'7 and in a full body suit that looked like a cave man. Oh and they didn't end with ether or whatever stupid finish that was.

Their match was horrible. I certainly don't think that it's a match that Bret will be remembered for.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say his first Wrestlemania main event will in fact be remembered.

Well Eugene and Hillbilly Jim certainly won't be remembered for much. If Santino is remembered in the future then great. I'm talking about how well 'Taker did in the early part of his career.

So let me get this straight.

You're saying that Giant Gonzalez is more remembered than guys like Jim and Eugene. My suspicions about you are being more confirmed every moment.

Well Bundy's wasn't against Hogan at WM 2 that's for sure. What else is Gonzalez remembered for and I'll give you Kamala.

Actually it was but you're the old school expert here right?

There was the battle royal on Raw and about a thousand tapes that he interefered in and cleaned house which Taker had nothing to do with.

Why are we arguing Gonzalez again?

Well quality of opponent certainly does matter does it not. I'm sure that Shawn Michaels wouldn't have been able to do much better with those opponents.

Actually he did in the matches I've seen him have with them.

I'm sure that the Attitude Era was about those particular people; however, 'Taker's feuds with Kane and Mankind had something to do with the Attitude Era.

Something? Yes. A big part? No.

Hogan is a complete cop out and no I don't think that match quality means jack.

Actually he's a correct answer rather than a cop out, and you would again be wrong.

But he's kept the same basic concept and if you think that he wasn't a zombie with powers during the early part of his career then your crazy or you're just trying to argue for the sake of it. All he changed before he became the American Bad Ass was his attire.

No, he wasn't the same basic concept. A demon and a mortician and a biker are three very different things

You're damn right. I'll take their word for it before I would your own.

Good for you.

By the way I won't be replying to anything else you reply with, as you've proven that you're nothing but an irrational fanboy that for some reason is rather obsessed with Giant Gonzalez matches and will spend the rest of this argument disagreeing with me because it proves your point better.
 
2003 I would omit from Rock's list. He was gone by April and he was gone for almost half of 2001. 1998 as well, as he wasn't a main event guy for more than two months of that year. You would also need to take out some of 1994 and 99/2000 for Taker as he was injured for a long time in those periods.

Here's the thing people seem to be forgetting: I said that Undertaker was what, the 8th biggest name ever in WWE? That's not that bad. I said he's below the following names:

Hogan
Austin
Rock
Savage
Bret
Shawn
Cena

Of all those names, you flat out cannot argue Hogan, Austin, Rock, Shawn and Cena. Period, you can't. You probably can't argue Bret either, putting Taker no lower than 6th. We've spent 3 days arguing over whether or not Undertaker is the 6th biggest name in company history or the 8th biggest name in company history.

In short, I'm not saying Taker isn't a big deal. I'm not saying he's not a HUGE deal. I'm saying there are a good amount of people I'd put ahead of him.
Of course it all depends on what we're really talking about.

If we're just talking about the biggest name I wouldn't really argue since I can't judge from a country where wrestling is almost nonexistent in media and Hogan, Taker, Bret, Sting and maybe Wright are about the only names people might have heard. Rock too, but not at all because of wrestling. That probably distorts my view, but as an attempt to make this kind of objective I did google searchs with the query ""*WRESTLER_NAME*" wrestling" and these are the results (those mentioned above are in caps):

("Edge": 66.2 million - too many unrelated results)
"JOHN CENA": 63.9 million
"HULK HOGAN": 26.2 million
"Rey Mysterio": 23.7 million
"THE ROCK": 23.6 million
"Jeff Hardy": 23.0 million
"THE UNDERTAKER": 16.9 million
"SHAWN MICHAELS": 16.1 million
"CM Punk": 13.6 million
"Triple H": 12.6 million
"Randy Orton": 12.2 million
"Sting": 10.1 million
"Chris Benoit": 9.99 million
"Chris Jericho": 8.37 million
"BRET HART": 7.35 million
"Kurt Angle": 6.34 million
"STEVE AUSTIN": 6.12 million
"Ric Flair": 5.52 million
"RANDY SAVAGE": 5.48 million
"Sheamus": 4.75 million
"Bruno Sammartino": 689 thousand
"Lou Thesz": 428 thousand
Granted, a lot of these guys had their prime before the internet existed or was that big, so this isn't totally objective of course. But it gives an idea I'd say.

If we're talking about best wrestlers, drawing power is probably the most important criteria. This is hard to discuss since there is no clear proof on how many viewers the main event, a special participant in the main event or other parts of the show drew in. The best I can find is a list of the biggest WWE draws of all time, published by the Wrestling Observer Newsletter in 2008 and calculated based on attendance and buyrate statistics. I don't know the exact formula, but the only guy of the ones mentioned above that beats the Undertaker is Hogan (copied, therefore caps).

1. BRUNO SAMMARTINO

2. HULK HOGAN

3. BOB BACKLUND

4. ARGENTINA ROCCA

5. HHH

6. UNDERTAKER

7. STEVE AUSTIN

8. THE ROCK

9. PEDRO MORALES

10. SHAWN MICHAELS

11. SUPERSTAR BILLY GRAHAM

12. MIGUEL PEREZ

13. BRET HART

14. BUDDY ROGERS

15. RANDY SAVAGE

16. JOHN CENA

17. KURT ANGLE

18. MICK FOLEY

19. ANDRE THE GIANT

20. DR. JERRY GRAHAM
I also looked at buyrates and there is no major difference between PPVs Undertaker or other of the guys mentioned participated in at a given timeframe (MNW: Taker, Hart, Michaels; AE: Taker, Austin, Rock; RA/PG: Taker, Cena). A lot of guys were bigger and drew more in their peak, no discussion, but adapting to different times is also a key skill I'd say.

If we're talking about greatest wrestlers, it gets more subjective, but next to drawing power historical relevance gets into play I'd say. Memorable moments, great matches, being an important parts of eras, accomplishments and so on.

Quality wise the first half of the 90's was bad for him, I'll totally agree with that. However, he wasn't wrestling that long at this point and became incredibly better, although he had a lot of big matches and was an important player during that period.
But it's not like other guys, just taking Hulk here, were much better from a quality perspective despite being (rightful) legends. I can count great Hogan matches on one finger, against Warrior that is (haven't seen house or most television shows from that time). Some matches in WCW with Flair were good as well, but basically, that's it. Of course there were a lot of memorable moments like the Andre or Megapowers feud though.
Back to Taker. Match wise it got a lot of better with time. He developed a unique "dominant athleticism" style (lack of a better word), outstanding psychology and had a lot of good and great matches while becoming pretty consistent in the process. Unique and memorable moments, good and bad, came as well. He has left a large footprint in any modern era of wrestling.

Seven world titles aren't bad, but a (soon to be) 20-0 winning streak at the most important yearly event overshadows any number of world titles in my opinion. But the kayfabe success isn't the only part of that. Being the (second) biggest selling point of the by far biggest annual wrestling event for years on end is just legendary in my eyes. Having fought most main event and PPV matches along with clean victories over almost any big name the business has seen in modern times is just shaping that incredible resume up.

To end this, just a little anecdote you'll probably already know about how well respected Taker is: After the screwjob Hart knocked on Vince's door, but Vince wouldn't open. Undertaker, being angry about that, then went to his boss and told him to come out and apologize. Vince, knowing he got an order, did. I can't really imagine the story with a lot of other guys at his place. I'd think his respect even rose in the 14,5 years since.
 

His tights were really small on him and they were always kind of off putting to me.

Also, best OVW show ever? and Dinsmore's best ovw match?

That's a hard question to answer as the majority of OVW's stuff was house show based. He had some good matches with Johnny Jeter but I haven't seen most of his glory days from the late 90s.

Best OVW show I've ever seen is Christmas Chaos 2001 which was huge as they had Austin there like a week after he won the Rumble.

Of course it all depends on what we're really talking about.

If we're just talking about the biggest name I wouldn't really argue since I can't judge from a country where wrestling is almost nonexistent in media and Hogan, Taker, Bret, Sting and maybe Wright are about the only names people might have heard. Rock too, but not at all because of wrestling. That probably distorts my view, but as an attempt to make this kind of objective I did google searchs with the query ""*WRESTLER_NAME*" wrestling" and these are the results (those mentioned above are in caps):

Granted, a lot of these guys had their prime before the internet existed or was that big, so this isn't totally objective of course. But it gives an idea I'd say.

I'm not really sure how much that proves, especially with someone like Austin almost at the bottom of that list.

If we're talking about best wrestlers, drawing power is probably the most important criteria. This is hard to discuss since there is no clear proof on how many viewers the main event, a special participant in the main event or other parts of the show drew in. The best I can find is a list of the biggest WWE draws of all time, published by the Wrestling Observer Newsletter in 2008 and calculated based on attendance and buyrate statistics. I don't know the exact formula, but the only guy of the ones mentioned above that beats the Undertaker is Hogan (copied, therefore caps).

I'd take issue with putting guys from before the modern era began (Hogan winning the title) and modern times. It's just a totally different era and I would think there's too much of a difference between the two, especially with the absence of nationwide TV and it being such a regional product.

As for the list, I'd REALLY like to see how they calculated that as I've never heard of anything that would suggest that Undertaker is that big of a draw. I've seen a few shows he was on as well as a lot of the ads for house shows from various eras and he's rarely a featured guy. That strikes me as very, very odd.
I also looked at buyrates and there is no major difference between PPVs Undertaker or other of the guys mentioned participated in at a given timeframe (MNW: Taker, Hart, Michaels; AE: Taker, Austin, Rock; RA/PG: Taker, Cena). A lot of guys were bigger and drew more in their peak, no discussion, but adapting to different times is also a key skill I'd say.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Austin and Hogan's time on top (late 80s/Attitude Era) had far higher amounts of PPV buys than any other time. Taker hasn't been on top at all other than a few Smackdown shows and a little big in 2002 for the last twelve years or so.

If we're talking about greatest wrestlers, it gets more subjective, but next to drawing power historical relevance gets into play I'd say. Memorable moments, great matches, being an important parts of eras, accomplishments and so on.

Quality wise the first half of the 90's was bad for him, I'll totally agree with that. However, he wasn't wrestling that long at this point and became incredibly better, although he had a lot of big matches and was an important player during that period.

Oh he's definitely gotten better in the later part of his career, but he hasn't been near the top of the show other than around Mania time since then, other than the occasional one of SD PPV.

But it's not like other guys, just taking Hulk here, were much better from a quality perspective despite being (rightful) legends. I can count great Hogan matches on one finger, against Warrior that is (haven't seen house or most television shows from that time). Some matches in WCW with Flair were good as well, but basically, that's it. Of course there were a lot of memorable moments like the Andre or Megapowers feud though.

Hogan's matches with Savage were way up there too. They fought each other so many times that they could have a decent match just off memory.

As for quality, Hogan wasn't going to be someone to give you 30 minute wars in the ring. However that wasn't the point of him. He was the guy people paid to see. You'll hear stories of 8 hour TV tapings and the fans being dead quiet for 7 hours and 45 minutes. Hogan comes out for the last match and the place erupts. He sold out MSG I think it's something like 130 times? Hogan was the guy that launched the business into the next level. HIs in ring work may not be great, but it did exactly what it was supposed to do, which is the point.

Back to Taker. Match wise it got a lot of better with time. He developed a unique "dominant athleticism" style (lack of a better word), outstanding psychology and had a lot of good and great matches while becoming pretty consistent in the process. Unique and memorable moments, good and bad, came as well. He has left a large footprint in any modern era of wrestling.

I think calling it a large footprint is a stretch but he did get better over time. The problem with Undertaker was that he had to evolve as a character because the audience that started watching him when they were young (like me) could only watch his supernatural stuff for so long. That's why Biker Taker was such a good thing: it humanized him and made him much more interesting of a character for awhile. I remember reading about the stuff in 2001 with shots of him at home with his wife and him panicking over her being in danger were big deals as far as the ratings because people were interested in him. The problem was until about 1996 with the Foley feud, the over the top stuff could only take him so far. The AE was all about being over the top though so it worked better. he had a good run from 97 to mid 99ish but his character got so strange it had to be reset. As for his in ring style, he got bigger with the main event brawling style, but the credit for that mainly goes to Austin, who got it rolling because he had no other choice.

Seven world titles aren't bad, but a (soon to be) 20-0 winning streak at the most important yearly event overshadows any number of world titles in my opinion.

Well the number of title reigns you have doesn't mean anything anyway, but the Streak is something I go back and forth on. First and foremost, it wasn't even mentioned as anything important until 2002. It's one of those things they kind of invented by accident. It wasn't really until Orton in 05 that it became something like a title at Mania. I'm not sure it overshadows any number of world titles, but it's certainly more important for him.

But the kayfabe success isn't the only part of that. Being the (second) biggest selling point of the by far biggest annual wrestling event for years on end is just legendary in my eyes. Having fought most main event and PPV matches along with clean victories over almost any big name the business has seen in modern times is just shaping that incredible resume up.

It's a big deal, but the thing is he only wrestles there anymore. It probably is the second biggest selling point lately, but like I said until 2005, the Streak didn't mean anything.

To end this, just a little anecdote you'll probably already know about how well respected Taker is: After the screwjob Hart knocked on Vince's door, but Vince wouldn't open. Undertaker, being angry about that, then went to his boss and told him to come out and apologize. Vince, knowing he got an order, did. I can't really imagine the story with a lot of other guys at his place. I'd think his respect even rose in the 14,5 years since.

I have indeed heard that. At the time though, Vince probably would have surrendered to a Girl Scout because he knew he had done something wrong.

Overall, Undertaker is indeed a big deal. I'm really not sure on those stats you gave me (not saying you made them up or anything, but saying that I'd really like to see where that site got its information from). The thing about Taker is that from his debut until the Mankind feud, he more or less was a serious cartoon character. The other problem he has is that while he's been around forever, he's never been the top guy in the company. He came in just as the torch was about to be passed to Hart and Shawn and he never got close to the main event during that era. Then he had a career resurgence during the Attitude Era but he simply wasn't going to surpass Rock and Austin. Then he was on top for a little bit in the period between Rock and Austin leaving and the rise of the new generation, but those are considered some of the worst times ever for the company. He's had another resurgence in the last few years, but more or less he only shines at Wrestlemania. Like I said, he's one of the biggest stars in company history for sure, but there's a BIG gap between him and the guys ahead of him and that's what brings him down in my eyes.
 
The thing about Undertaker is that he may have always been a fairly popular guy, I'll never know because I didn't even hear of WWE until, like 2001 when I was in 5th grade, but he wasn't really something resembling a big deal until his return as the Deadman in, what, 2003? Before that e was just the big creepy guy who could do Suicide Dives or the biker who had an awesome gimmick but frankly terrible matches. After that he was probably one of the most popular guys in the company, but even then he was never one of the main draws until around Wrestlemania time.
 
About the website (wrestlingdata.com):
It's originally a German site (genickbruch.com) with data about almost all things wrestling. You can basically find every wrestler or card or company or title with matches attached to it, get statistics and rate wrestlers and shows. For example, you can search how many matches Rock and Austin had against each other, when they happened, who won, when they teamed and so on. There is also attendance and buyrate information about most shows, but I don't know if it has all features in the English version. In the German version there are also biographies attached to wrestlers, special articles about historical occurences and more. Pretty cool actually.
With the main events, I think it's a database query over all last matches of a company's PPVs (in a specific timeframe). It is possible that special matches can be designated as main events, but I don't know.

Since the discussion is more or less done and I think we're both a bit tired of it I'll just say that I'm happy that different people have different tastes, opinions and priorities since it brings versatility and discussion into wrestling. I'm not convinced that the status of the "poster boy" is incredibly more worth than that of the second or third guy (especially at times where it's not all that clear) and I think that's the main difference here.

So, another question: How many German wrestlers can you name? I'd be surprised if it's more than one.
 
Alex Wright
Big Otto Wanz (actually Austrian but famous for owning the CWA in Germany)
Thumbtack Jack, an indy guy mainly known in CZW who was born in Munich
There was also a German guy in the FBI in the original ECW. Herman something or other.
 
Yeah, Ulf Hermann. And you know the birthplace of a guy like Thumbtack Jack who probably wouldn't even make a Top 1,000 list? Wow.
There's also the embarassing Brakkus, you may have heard of him.

Have you reviewed any CWA shows? Wrestling in Germany or continental Europe is basically dead since it closed, although Alex Wright started an ambitious league just recently.
 
Have you ever given a show a 1 out of 10 in your reviews? I'd be interested to see what piece of trash, if anything, gets that "honor" :p
 
Oh sure. Well, an F- or worse but yeah.

Uncensored 96, which is called my best review ever. That show blew my mind with how crazy it was.

A lot of WCW shows from the early half of the 90s had horrible ratings. There are probably a bunch more that I'm overlooking.
 

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