John Cena is NOT the problem........ | Page 2 | WrestleZone Forums

John Cena is NOT the problem........

I think you're arguing two separate points here, they are Cena's input when it comes to putting over younger talent and the brand separation's effect on the world title picture. So lets first start with the world title picture. The brand split always meant that Smackdown got the short end of the stick. When the WWE title was on Smackdown it still wasnt half as prestigious as the WHC. Now fast forward to the WHC coming to SD with Batista and you'll see the same effect. The only reason the WHC stayed relevant during the past few years is because WWE had enough veterans on Smackdown to play hot potato with the World title. If you look at only the past six or so years SD lost the bulk of its roster. Batista, Booker T, Undertaker, Rey Mysterio, Eddie Guerrero, Triple H Jeff Hardy, Edge, and Kurt Angle are all gone. That leaves Christian (who for most of the last year has been gone due to injury), Orton with the blandest gimmick as of late, Del Rio & Ziggler with their inability to draw, and Mark Henry set to leave the company probably in the near future. While unifying the midcard titles seems like common sense to me since I can never remember who the IC champion is, I dont think unifying the world titles will fix a problem that is inherently broken and thats WWE treating SD like the B show.

Now as far as Cena goes, the point is his pushes have always come at the expense of other rising stars. Although I cant attest to whether he has an input in who he buries or puts over, the fact of the matter is the fans have been asking WWE for another top star for a while now. Cena has been on top for longer than Hogan in the 80's and the other star that got as close, CM Punk, was burried by Triple H as soon as he sold more merch than Cena.
 
Right off the bat: Everytime I see a fucking endless drone about "title prestige", I die a little. It's a damn prop, people...

Right, on to the Cena-issue:
John Cena is the biggest draw in history today. He's good in the ring, he's great with the mic and I don't think he has a wellness-violation. What more could you want?

While not gifted with amazing ring-psychology, he's an internet dream. He's huge, he has a submission finisher as back-up and we've seen him do a hurricanrana this year. For a man of Cena's size to do that, would be like Rey nailing a 630 corkscrew senton... or something.

The problem with Cena, I believe, would be the way he's booked. I honestly think the crowd's tired of this Hulk Hogan horseshit and want a fallible hero with moral weaknesses and vulnerability too. I blame cinema... Cena has to lose more often, now he's a big deal, because if there was no realistic chance he'd lose, even his best-built PPV-match would be "booooooring".

Also, I touched on this, what aggravates a lot of fans (myself included) is Cena's ring-psychology. Nothing wrong with the moves he can do (slamming Show in a regular basis), but he would sell the beating of his life, only to "hulk-up" fifteen minutes later and hit his finishing sequence.

No match illustrates my point as well as Cena and The Miz's I-Quit match at OTL, 2011. Both Miz AND Riley destroyed Cena for damn-near twenty minutes. What's Cena do? He disposes of Riley like a child would a booger and slaps on the STF on Miz, who taps out instantly. That, to me, is not good story-telling.

However, having Cena as top guy sure beats having that pudgy, whiny-even-as-a-face, little bitch, CM Punk there.
 
The WWE's "safe" business plan needs to change. Cena has earned what he has received. The guy sells and is not HORRIBLE at anything. Is he the best in-ring worker? Of course not. Is the best on the mic? Arguable but not in my opinion.

He is a guaranteed buy. They wouldn't even let CM Punk enjoy his time in the limelight as the top wrestler in the world (modern history really) because they were afraid he couldn't sell, even though he proved otherwise with merch.

Guys like Daniel Bryan and CM Punk satiate actual wrestling fans which really probably only makes up about 25% of the WWE's fan base. Punk was the only one hungry enough to FORCE them to give him the push he deserved. Bryan is currently taking a different (and arguably more effective) path. Getting over with the fans can ensure long term success and Bryan is the most over guy in the company and it's not close.

All that doesn't matter though, because until there is ever another legit threat to the WWE monopoly they will stick with the safest bets that make the easiest $$$
 
However, having Cena as top guy sure beats having that pudgy, whiny-even-as-a-face, little bitch, CM Punk there.




Did this clown just make a post about story-telling via Wrestling and then cite CM Punk as a little bitch and Cena as A-okay?

:lmao::lmao:


Cena has put on the same match his entire career. CM Punk does more in any given match then Cena has for a decade.
 
BillAlfonsos_Whistle said:
Did this clown just make a post about story-telling via Wrestling and then cite CM Punk as a little bitch and Cena as A-okay?

No, I didn't, fanboy. There's enough room in this clown car for the both of us.

Bear Hug said:
...what aggravates a lot of
fans (myself included) is Cena's ring-psychology.

I even had a point about how bad Cena tells a story, ending in:
Bear Hug said:
That, to me, is not good story-telling.

I know having Punk's balls on your chin makes it hard to read, but do give it a try :)

I'm not hijacking this thread to make it a Punk-thread.

Cena is a proven draw and people pay to see him. The mixed reaction and the way people around him get buried are the main issues, I gathered.
 
the only problem with cena is that sometimes he is a little corny. he needs to get angry and kick some ass a little more. like the build up to his fight with lesner.
 
That's a little dramatic. Who cares if the guy complains about John Cena? It's more unfortunate that it goes so far as to "suck the fun out of wrestling" for you.
That's nice, and I'm glad you found a soapbox, but read closer. I never said it sucked the fun out of wrestling for me.


Nobody ever talks about the hostile fans who let the "Cena Haters" get so much under their skin that they pick completely condescending fights with them. These people seem to take some sort of sick pleasure in proving the "haters" wrong. Some WZ columnists need psychiatric help for this obsession.

What "hostile" Cena fans? Like me, who didn't swear at or call the guy I was addressing names whatsoever? Nah, I addressed a point-by-point argument about how Cena was the problem, and simply explained how he wasn't. I'm sorry that was too "hostile" for you. ;)

I hope you find a good psychiatrist soon.


Haha...of course it will. That doesn't even make sense.
Bryan losing to Cena, who's the WWE Champion, will hurt him catasrophically? How so? I think you're doing a nice job of being quite the dramatist. Cena is a 13 time WWE Champion/World Champion, while Bryan has won one. Cena is undoubtably the #1 guy in the company, so if he loses a brutal 30 minute war in which he pushes Cena to the limit, it hurts Bryan how?

Please try and make sense this time. Thanks.:blush:


Themselves. The theme of your argument seems to be that Cena is so great that he turns people into gold just because they are privileged enough to work with him.
No, that particular argument was simple, and you missed it entirely. Before working with Cena, none of those men were main-eventers. Following working with him, they all were. Coincidence?

Not a chance.

And after they fail time and time again to defeat him they're now main-eventers. Cena is undoubtedly a main eventer so it signals to the audience to the ranking of his opponent, I guess.
Except Edge, Randy Orton, CM Punk AND Sheamus didn't fail to defeat Cena time and time again.

Also, putting someone over doesn't mean letting them beat you because of an interference by Johnny Ace
Punk's win at MITB was because of interference by Laurinitis? Really? Me-thinks not.

How do you explain his win at Summerslam the next month? Or his retention in Cena's hometown at NOC 2012? Or pinning him at SS12?

,
or accidentally falling into a table,
Cena's never beaten Sheamus one on one.

or getting MITB cashed in on you after a brutal EC match,
Edge beat Cena in the main event of Summerslam 2006 in Cena's hometown, and had multiple victories over him that year.

or defeating someone after such a long and drawn out feud that the WWE had to tell us "We promise this is the last time they will have a match. We swear."
Cena lost clean to Orton, thus prompting the IronMan match at Bragging Rights 2009, where if Cena lost, he left Raw.

People are going to hate Cena. And the other side of the coin is that people are going to hate people who hate Cena.
I don't mind people who dislike Cena, if they can make legitimate arguments as to why.

It's people like you that annoy me when they can't get their facts straight or make a sound argument. :)
 
People say that Cena doesn't put over anybody. I have never got this expectation that the older guy has to put over the younger one all the time.

If Cena beats someone, he is buryng them. If they beat him ,it is building them.

But where does doing the job hurt the veteran? If Cena put over every new guy, then it weakens Cena, and so new guys beating him doesn't elevate them anymore. But making Cena look like a Superman, it means more when a new guy finally beats him.

How you think of a wrestler is dependent of you? It makes no difference if they win or lose? The Brooklyn Brawler has been in the WWE longer than anyone, and his whole gimmick is to job. Does it mean that you respect Steve Lombardi less?

How come Sheamus isn't accepted as a topliner, as he was never buried by Cena, and won their only match in a Tables Match? He has been on the other roster to Cena most of the time. That's not his fault!

Would Hulk Hogan had the same aura going into WM3 against Andre The Giant, if Hogan had jobbed to Studd, King Kong Bundy, Roddy Piper and Mr Wonderful?

If Cena isn't supposed to win against up-and-comers, then who should he beat? He may be stuck changing victories with Randy Orton over and over, if that is the case. Also, if a new guy finally makes the main-event (Like Punk), can Cena finally beat him then, or does Cena still have to job to him? Punk is a main-eventer, so it is okay now if Cena beats him , considering Cena put Punk over at MITB 2011?

Look at Chris Jericho. He has become a glorified jobber. If not for his achievements, he would be a joke right now. I can understand Jericho constantly leaving, if all WWE sees him doing is lying on his back all the time to all and sundry.
 
False. John Cena is the problem. He refuses to take a back seat to anyone. Cena could have put over Ryback (on numerous occasions), Mark Henry should have taken the title from Cena and continued his run as a monster heel. Now he is relegated to the "Cena's B*tch" list after tapping out to a basic step over cross face after essentially being overpowered by Cena. John Cena has a lot of stroke in the company, at least in my opinion.

Exhibit 1:
Ruining the Nexus. Look at how awesome they were until dun dun dunnnnn JOHN CENA got involved. Turned it into a living joke.

Exhibit 2:
Dolph Ziggler. Back many months ago Cena really demolished Ziggler's credibility. I can remember a series of matches where Ziggler beat Cena constantly and then Super Cena jumped up like nothing happened BOOM AA 1,2,3 match over.

Exhibit 3:
2012 was the year of Cena. He was the main event for 75% of the WWE Pay Per Views. Talk about not giving fresh talent a chance. Big Show, Big Johnny, Kane. None of them NEEDED to be in the main event. 2013 has essentially turned into much of the same. Winning the Royal Rumble (totally unnecessary at this point...)

Exhibit 4:
Cena competed in nine pay-per-view main events in 2012.WWE Champion CM Punk, on the other hand, competed in just three. Imagine that. The Longest reigning champion in the past what 2 decades had to take a back seat to JOHN CENA. You speak about titles losing prestige well I'm sure THAT had nothing to do with it right!?
To add to it here is a brief 2012 breakdown of the PPV main events of Cena vs title defenses:
John Cena: 9
WWE Champion CM Punk: 3
World Heavyweight Champion (multiple): 0

Nuff said. The 2 biggest problems in the WWE right now ARE in fact John Cena & Vince McMahon.

Edit: And if John Cena beats Daniel Bryan it will further my point of Cena killing off any momentum people get.

put down whatever intoxicant you use and seek medical and mental help. almost everything you stated is ridiculous. cena tried to put over ryback, but ryback just doesn't resonate with the crowd strongly enough for those in charge to trust him to go over cena. you seem not to understand that there is a difference in putting someone over and winning a scripted match.
i have never heard reports about any one in the back saying cena refused to take a loss. you seem to think he's got the ego and control that hogan sufered in the 80's. he doesn't. he's always in the main event because he has a large crowd of supporters that want to see him in that position, and haters like you who don't understand that by complaining about him, all you are doing is pushing to be in your face all the time.

stfu is not the most impressive submission move, but it is a lot more impressive, especially on a guy built like henry. just being able to get the heel hold on and stretch and pull around his head/shoulders is impressive. it's certainly better then del rio's crossarm breaker or swagger's ankle lock, which frankly is overplayed.

Nexus ruined itself. they came up too big a group, and with too many of them green as snot. that's why some of them disappeared for a while (flash: ryback was skip sheffield in nexus) and look at the roster and where people are slotted now. when ryback seems to be the one getting the breaks, and wade barrett is a going downhil fast, otunga is nowhere, slater is in jobber trio 3mb, and i don't even know where gabriel is that shows the lack of talent in the group that was leading them to fail anyway, even if they never had the cena angles, which frankly where the only watchable times they were onscreen.

Personaly, i never felt Ziggles had any credibility anyway. and most of those ziggles beating cena moments involved some kind of outer ring distraction or interference.

2012 year of cena? good for them. that indicates that he is doing what he needs ot do since if he wasn't making them some kind of money, they wouldn't have continued to put him in htat position in the first place. sure people like you complain about him, but when you go to raw/smackdown or buy/go to a ppv, and boo then you are doing what wwe wants: giving them a reaction.

actually, i think his health and knee issues were contributing factors to punk taking a back seat to cena. and let's not be oo enthusiastic about punk's title rain, a lot of it was pushed as far as it could be by heyman interfering or distracting opponents, and frankly even a decade ago there was at least once and possibly 2 or more times where he would have been stripped of the belt for not defended within their kayfabe 30 day defense rule. As good in the ring as he is, and can sometimes be on the mike, punk simply doesn't have the appeal to reach the mass audience that cena does. also during that time you list that cena was main event of 9 ppv's while punk had 3 ppv title defenses. you forget ot mention that cena hasn't had the championship for more then a month or 2 at a time in several years. cena is frankly at this point, beyond the need for titles. he doesn't have to be the champ to be considerd the top guy, and none of the people you mention (henry, ryback, punk) are going to be in that position anytime soon.

so suck it up buttercup.

The problem isn't cena or even vince(although a contributing factor), it's the disconnect between smarks like you(okay i might fit here too) and the younger fans that still want to believe in good vs evil and right vs wrong. the problem is the internet and the opening of the door's that has lead people like you and me to stop watching to enjoy what these athletes put themselves through and assuming that we have a right to know everything about the athletes and the stories they are trying to tell. We've grown up, and lost that innocence of not knowing their real names, wife's names, divorces, kids, affairs, financial situations, etc... Of only knowing them through their characters and their in ring actions. we assume that we all know more about how to work a match, pull off a move, or run a show and forget that unless you've lived that life, and been in the thick of it, we have no greater understanding about what's really going on then we do when watching a baseball or football game. Everyone thinks they can do a better job then the guy in charge, no matter the fact that they don't understand all the nuances and tricks of the trade that you only learn by doing, not by watching. There's a reason no baseball team has ever hired some fan from the stands to run the team, even if he's been watching the sport for 40 years. They forget that they got into the world first by being a fan and think that they are management.


so you want to solve the problems, here's the one truest solution: sit back, shut up and enjoy the action. cheer for who you want, boo who you want, and stop bitching if the guy at the top isn't the one you want. there's a reason he's there and the guy you like isn't. you might not agree or understand that reason, but it is there. problem solved.
 
Nope here is how I think:
Cena can sell merchandise whether he is in the main event or not. He still sold a ton of merchandise for WWE while he was injured. What I am calling for is for Cena to LOSE cleanly in singles matches. Put some of the suspense back into his matches. His matches are so predictable at this point that there really isn't any reason to tune in. Having him LOSE cleanly to up and comers not only allows them to develop but it helps Cena put people over. If Cena were doing this then he wouldn't have nearly as many haters. As far as if I believe Cena has backstage stroke. HELL YEAH I think he has a voice in Vince's ear. If you don't believe that then you are a damn fool. End of story.

he does, all the time. he's always willing to take the loss if it helps the product. he's constantly being beat and being beat down. it's just that he doesn't get beat in the payoff match and that's more of a product of lack of ability on his opponents part then him trying to hog the lime light. he's the main event because that help them sell merchandise bot for him and his opponents. would anyone be interested at this point in mark henry if he hadn't feuded with cena? would anyone be able to stomach ryback on their screen if he wasn't chasing cena? henry was an after thought, a career midcarder with serious injury issues until they were stuck and put the belt on him. he did a good job, but he's been more interesting during his program with cena then at anytime he's been in the wwe.

seamus made his name attacking cena and kicking the holy hell out of him. wins/losses aren't as important anymore. if cena was truly the ego hog you and haters claim, he would never have agreed to be beaten silly week after week by Nexus, Seamus, and so many others. PuUtting someone over no longer means letting them beat you in a match. It's more about allowing them to seem strong by causing you to feel their presence. to have those 'omg', 'holy shhh' moments like when Seamus put him through a table, when all 8 of Nexus hit him with their finishers, when henry was crushing him with slams all over the place. when the shield was attacking him and beating him. so don't say he doesn't put people over just because he's always in the main event of a ppv. he looses as often as he wins those matches.
 

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