It's not too early to judge TNA's angles.

[johnbragg]

Before Bound For Glory, a lot of pro-TNA posters were arguing that it was unfair to judge the They/Deception angle until it played out. I didn’t fully agree, because very often you can see a plot has holes without following all the way to the end just in case the writers somehow patch everything back together.

I stayed with the plot because Bischoff etc. successfully worked me, got me to believe that they had laid out a strategy that TNA was following and adjusting it to fit new developments rather than just frantically “booking on the fly” and hoping that things would work out.

But Bound For Glory is over. We know who “they” are. Abyss has been following Hogan, Bischoff who have recruited Jarrett and Hardy. Whatever paper Dixie signed will let them do whatever it is that they want to do.

A number of posters are still arguing that we should give “they” more time to explain their motivations and cover the apparent plot holes. Stop. Just stop. The angles are what they are, and they either make some sense now or they don’t. You can no longer give these plotlines a grade of “Incomplete.” I judge that this is all warmed over "worked shoot"/swerve for the sake of the swerve, trademarked Russorific nonsense. (Although the height of TNA, in my opinion, was with Russo in sole control, last fall.) You may judge differently, go ahead. But don't say it's too early to judge because TNA might explain it all next Thursday.

Abyss' "they" were not coming, they were already there. So the "They Are Coming" segments were a complete waste of time. "Janice and Bob" was a red herring--TNA fooled me, congratulations. Hogan and Bischoff didn't need Abyss to put the belt on Jeff Hardy.

“Deception” is over. Sting was right that Hogan was plotting something. So I guess Sting knew about Abyss and Hogan and Jeff Hardy, and did nothing to stop it. So, that was kind of a waste of time, too, wasn't it. Jarrett screwed Joe, yawn. I could really give a crap what Jarrett does or doesn't do.

Jeff Hardy turned heel. Legitimate surprise, TNA gets points for that, and it makes some sense that Jeff would align with powerful figures to get his hands on the title. I actually have no problem with the Jeff Hardy heel turn. But it is entangled with the rest of the crappy storylines, and that isn't going to change.

 

[Zeven_Zion]

Abyss' "they" were not coming, they were already there. So the "They Are Coming" segments were a complete waste of time. "Janice and Bob" was a red herring--TNA fooled me, congratulations. Hogan and Bischoff didn't need Abyss to put the belt on Jeff Hardy.

“Deception” is over. Sting was right that Hogan was plotting something. So I guess Sting knew about Abyss and Hogan and Jeff Hardy, and did nothing to stop it. So, that was kind of a waste of time, too, wasn't it. Jarrett screwed Joe, yawn. I could really give a crap what Jarrett does or doesn't do.

Why do people always act as if everything has to be as logical as in real life? Yes, they didn't need Abyss to take out RVD for Hardy to become Champion, and yes, it would've been logical for Sting to just say what he had to say and end this. But this isn't real life, it's fake pro wrestling. It tells a story.

I don't see you complaining that Luke Skywalker could've just used the force to snatch Darth Vader's lightsaber off his hands and cut his head off. Are you also pissed off that whenever there's a shoot out between bad guys and good guys in a movie, the good guys always hit their target and the bad guys miss by a mile? Makes no sense right? But your job as a viewer is to get the fuck over it. It's a story. I was pissed when Cena made Wade Barrett tap out so quickly. Hell, I was pissed every time he made everyone tap quickly - but that's who he is. That's who he's portrayed as, and I have to shut up, not be smarky about it and deal with it.

As far as not being too early to judge the angle, I semi-agree. You can judge it to some extent because while some questions were answered, new ones popped up. These questions would've been there regardless of who they were. TNA said it a million times - it isn't the end of a storyline, it is just the beginning. All we found out was who "they" are. From this point on it's TNA's job to reveal why they're together, what sparked this and what are their goals. Do you know the answers of these questions? No? Then you can't judge anything. The only thing you can judge is whether the people in "they" were a good choice, other than that it would be pretty ignorant to yak about something that's not yet explained. Knowing most of the people who constantly find something to whine about - there'll be some yakkin'.

My personal oppinion about who they turned out to be is this - it was good, but it could've been a LOT better. Let's not fool ourselves - we all knew Hogan, JJ and Bischoff were "they" for the last few months. Don't act like this is a let-down. It's not a let-down, it's just not a surprise. It makes complete sense for them to be "they". Yes, "They are coming" was misleading - but that's the point. Would you prefer it if Abyss was yelling "THEY ARE HERE AND THEY WILL TAKE TNA OVER"? Do you think that would've been better? That means the fans will expect just about anyone on the roster, and we all thought it's going to be these three plus some outsiders, while it turned out it's these three + Jeff Hardy - shock factor created. If they didn't do that, then people would've moaned their asses off about how predictable it was.

And as far as Hardy goes - I like the idea, I don't know how it'll pan out. I like the fact that TNA has the cohonies to turn Hardy heel, while WWE had too big of a boner for his merchandise. Plus, I'm quite sure that he's not "Bound for Jail". The sheer fact that this shit took so long just means that something's wrong. If it was a done deal he'd be in the clink already.

Personally, I'd have Anderson in Jeff's place. No matter how good or bad Jeff turns out to be as a heel, I see no bad guy that can surpass Anderson in that department. It would've made sense too, 'cause Anderson was pissed at Angle, they had this brawl on Reaction and it closed down with Anderson saying "you want an asshole I'll show you an asshole". He turned face only to fool everybody because ... well .. he's an asshole.

Either way, I was more than satisfied with the turn out. Could've been better, but what I got was good enough for me. I think a lot of people are mad not because the turn out was shitty, but because they had higher expectations, and if you think about it, they're pissed off at themselves for thinking it's going to be some groundbreaking shit that'll set the world on fire. That just means TNA did a great job to hype it as much as possible, the rest was your imagination. I myself had MUCH higher expectations, that's why I was like "fuck no" when Hardy won but then I started thinking and loved the idea. My biggest issue with BFG was EV2 winning, especially the fact that Dreamer pinned AJ of all people. It was a such a crock of shit. Other than that, I liked the way things turned out. Remember, this just opened the way for new things to happen. NWO was just 2-3 guys in the beginning, and it became bigger and badder. Even if Hardy fails as a heel, he's got a whole bunch 'o people like JJ, Hogan, Bischoff and Abyss that know how to cut a sweet heel promo. Hardy could be the silent World Champion type of guy, Sting-like. I kind of feel that this is what they were going for. Just give it time. If you can't - then don't make pointless threads about it and go watch somethin' else.

 

[shattered dreams]

Before Bound For Glory, a lot of pro-TNA posters were arguing that it was unfair to judge the They/Deception angle until it played out. I didn’t fully agree, because very often you can see a plot has holes without following all the way to the end just in case the writers somehow patch everything back together.

Did you point out any holes in the rest of this post. I am not trying to be a dick, I think you presented your viewpoint in a good manner, I just do not see "holes" here. I see you saying that you think certain things were a waste of time based on speculation. It is not a plot hole when the story is incomplete and they clearly are not done telling it. You missed on Jeff, couldn't you conceivably miss on how some of this might tie together? Obviously we are going to find out what sides some of these wrestlers and groups are on. How that can be a plot hole makes no sense to me.

I stayed with the plot because Bischoff etc. successfully worked me, got me to believe that they had laid out a strategy that TNA was following and adjusting it to fit new developments rather than just frantically “booking on the fly” and hoping that things would work out.

Booking on the fly? Even if it has not been the exact scenario laid out for 6 months parts of it clearly have been in place that long. The timeline to me seems something like about 6 months ago it was decided that Abyss, Hogan and Bischoff (probably Jarrett as well) were going to takeover heel style via a swerve with at least one of RVD, Jeff Hardy or Kurt Angle. About two months ago they decided on Jeff hardy and booked the rest from there. How is that booking on the fly?

But Bound For Glory is over. We know who “they” are. Abyss has been following Hogan, Bischoff who have recruited Jarrett and Hardy. Whatever paper Dixie signed will let them do whatever it is that they want to do.

It very well might be the paper but we absolutely do not know that yet unless this is some spoiler. For all you know Bob and Janice Carter could still come out on the next impact. It is things like "whatever they want to do" that make some of us say see what happens before judging. You admittedly do not even know where this is going yet you want to judge it? Seems more like jumping to conclusions to me.

I judge that this is all warmed over "worked shoot"/swerve for the sake of the swerve, trademarked Russorific nonsense. (Although the height of TNA, in my opinion, was with Russo in sole control, last fall.) You may judge differently, go ahead. But don't say it's too early to judge because TNA might explain it all next Thursday.

The thing is there is no might about it. Will they explain every excruciating detail? Probably not but why does that matter? When has that ever happened in wrestling anyway? I judge that it is pure insanity to think we are never going to find out where sting, joe and the management structure stand. Thus, it is anything but a plothole. If you buy into the one thing that has been revealed, the Jeff Hardy heel turn, then i am confused why you will not at least see where the whole thing actually is headed instead of simply assuming it does not work.

 

[johnbragg]

Why do people always act as if everything has to be as logical as in real life?

Why do people act as if it's okay to be stupid because it's wrestling?

I don't see you complaining that Luke Skywalker could've just used the force to snatch Darth Vader's lightsaber off his hands and cut his head off.

Nerd time--because he couldn't. Vader is a Sith Lord and a fully qualified Jedi and all that jazz. Luke was a relative noob, even by the end of Return of the Jedi. If Luke weren't Vader's son, Vader might have done that to Luke. See? Consistent storytelling. Most of the Star Wars original trilogy plotholes get closed when you consider that Vader knew that Luke was his son and so went easy on him. The Stormtroopers in A New Hope were missing on purpose.

Are you also pissed off that whenever there's a shoot out between bad guys and good guys in a movie, the good guys always hit their target and the bad guys miss by a mile? Makes no sense right?

Well, if the good guys are trained cops/soldiers and the bad guys are random goons, it does make some sense. If the good guys are random schnooks and the bad guys are highly trained killers, and that happens, then I'm probably watching a crappy movie.

I was pissed when Cena made Wade Barrett tap out so quickly. Hell, I was pissed every time he made everyone tap quickly - but that's who he is.

Well, yeah, that's called consistent characterization. If all of a sudden Cena has Alex Riley in the STFU and can't make him tap, then we're entitled to say WTF? That doesn't make sense. (Let's say this happened before the Cena-in-the-Nexus angle.)

From this point on it's TNA's job to reveal why they're together, what sparked this and what are their goals. Do you know the answers of these questions?

I have pretty solid predictions as to the answers. Hogan and Bischoff wanted complete control, even completerer than they had, Jarrett wanted revenge on Dixie for giving him the boot, Jeff Hardy needed help to win the title. And their goals, out of character, are pretty much to shit on the fans and laugh. In character, TNA Creative hasn't thought that part through yet.

Do you think that TNA creative has answers to these questions today? Or are they just going to cover the plot holes with more swerves and new questions?

Would you prefer it if Abyss was yelling "THEY ARE HERE AND THEY WILL TAKE TNA OVER"?

How about "They Will Be Revealed"? I'm pretty sure I'm not a creative genius, and that was pretty easy.

 

[johnbragg]

Did you point out any holes in the rest of this post. I am not trying to be a dick, I think you presented your viewpoint in a good manner, I just do not see "holes" here. I see you saying that you think certain things were a waste of time based on speculation. It is not a plot hole when the story is incomplete and they clearly are not done telling it.

I didn't want to argue about what is and isn't a plot hole in this thread. I wanted to try to stay focused on the idea that it's time to judge the angles.

A lot of people (or maybe not many people? Interesting to see what Meltzer comes up with on buyrates) paid money to see Bound For Glory and have the questions answered, because that's how TNA sold the PPV. Who are They? What is the Deception?

You missed on Jeff, couldn't you conceivably miss on how some of this might tie together?

Hardy or Jarrett? I give TNA full credit for the Jeff Hardy turn. It was unexpected, yet it has a pretty logical and pretty obvious reason--Hardy needed Hogan/Bischoff's help to win the coveted TNA World Title.

Jarrett I don't really care what he did or does. OK, if Jarrett had raised Bischoff's hand, announced himself as the new TNA President, waved the paper Dixie signed, and fired Hogan and Dixie, then I would have cared. But Jarrett as one member of They, I have very little interest.

But, after having followed wrestling since the Attitude Era, and knowing Bischoff and Russo's track records as bookers, the type of plotlines they enjoy, I do not believe that they WILL tie much of this together, at least not without ass-raping logic and consistency on a pretty regular basis. "They are coming" joins Joe's kidnappers, Sting's retirement at BFG 2009, an explanation for Joe's joining MEM, and the Nash-Joe conflict from a few years ago (why does Joe get so many of these?) as TNA broken promises, filed on the shelf next to WWE's fake Kane and plenty more.

 

[SpecialFNK]

it was a surprise to see Hardy turn heel and win the championship. who is to say they can't have other surprises? this is being compared to nWo. back in the day with Hogan/Nash/Hall they kicked the shit out of Giant, and then the Giant joined nWo. more surprises are coming.

one can judge what has happened up until now, but things are still happening and will continue to happen. there are still multiple questions to be answered. I don't even think your going to get all these answers on the next Impact or even the one after that. I wouldn't want all the answers right away anyway, other wise why continue to watch?
this isn't like a movie where at the end everything/most is answered and the movie is over so everyone go home. you want people to watch week after week, so you don't want to reveal everything at once.

 

[shattered dreams]

I didn't want to argue about what is and isn't a plot hole in this thread. I wanted to try to stay focused on the idea that it's time to judge the angles.

The thing is that the existence of these plot holes is a pretty important part of your argument. If you want them to be so important then they have to be listed and defended.

A lot of people (or maybe not many people? Interesting to see what Meltzer comes up with on buyrates) paid money to see Bound For Glory and have the questions answered, because that's how TNA sold the PPV. Who are They? What is the Deception?

Call me crazy but they were revealed as was what was part of or all the deception. If the Jeff Hardy (should have specified) thing worked then I doubt people were disappointed. They did not need to kill the effect with a long explanation promo IMO. Hardy smashing RVD was equally effective. The PPV delivered a huge piece of the puzzle which is what they promised.

But, after having followed wrestling since the Attitude Era, and knowing Bischoff and Russo's track records as bookers, the type of plotlines they enjoy, I do not believe that they WILL tie much of this together, at least not without ass-raping logic and consistency on a pretty regular basis. "They are coming" joins Joe's kidnappers, Sting's retirement at BFG 2009, an explanation for Joe's joining MEM, and the Nash-Joe conflict from a few years ago (why does Joe get so many of these?) as TNA broken promises, filed on the shelf next to WWE's fake Kane and plenty more.

IF you are right then I might agree. But you cannot possibly know this yet. I see no way you can prove this cannot make enough sense for an entertaining wrestling angle. Thus, I contend you should see what happens before judging it.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

i dont think im that dissapointed with this "they" stuff.yeah there are quite a few loopholes in the storyline but dixie carter said it long ago that "they" was going to be a change rather than someone coming into the company

and frankly i think we should concentrate on what this means.sure a lot of people are already cringing that this is nwo version2345 but hogan has a chance to do the nwo right this time.give us the baby face that will deliver us from nwo tna.what i would love to see is dixie put her trust on the old guard say angle and sting only for them to fail and then some new babyface or a group of young babyfaces to show up and save the day for tna.

and yeah the hardy turn didnt fool me.just check out my sig

 

[Dmm314]

Why do people always act as if everything has to be as logical as in real life? Yes, they didn't need Abyss to take out RVD for Hardy to become Champion, and yes, it would've been logical for Sting to just say what he had to say and end this. But this isn't real life, it's fake pro wrestling. It tells a story.

I don't see you complaining that Luke Skywalker could've just used the force to snatch Darth Vader's lightsaber off his hands and cut his head off. Are you also pissed off that whenever there's a shoot out between bad guys and good guys in a movie, the good guys always hit their target and the bad guys miss by a mile? Makes no sense right? But your job as a viewer is to get the fuck over it. It's a story. I was pissed when Cena made Wade Barrett tap out so quickly. Hell, I was pissed every time he made everyone tap quickly - but that's who he is. That's who he's portrayed as, and I have to shut up, not be smarky about it and deal with it.

As far as not being too early to judge the angle, I semi-agree. You can judge it to some extent because while some questions were answered, new ones popped up. These questions would've been there regardless of who they were. TNA said it a million times - it isn't the end of a storyline, it is just the beginning. All we found out was who "they" are. From this point on it's TNA's job to reveal why they're together, what sparked this and what are their goals. Do you know the answers of these questions? No? Then you can't judge anything. The only thing you can judge is whether the people in "they" were a good choice, other than that it would be pretty ignorant to yak about something that's not yet explained. Knowing most of the people who constantly find something to whine about - there'll be some yakkin'.

My personal oppinion about who they turned out to be is this - it was good, but it could've been a LOT better. Let's not fool ourselves - we all knew Hogan, JJ and Bischoff were "they" for the last few months. Don't act like this is a let-down. It's not a let-down, it's just not a surprise. It makes complete sense for them to be "they". Yes, "They are coming" was misleading - but that's the point. Would you prefer it if Abyss was yelling "THEY ARE HERE AND THEY WILL TAKE TNA OVER"? Do you think that would've been better? That means the fans will expect just about anyone on the roster, and we all thought it's going to be these three plus some outsiders, while it turned out it's these three + Jeff Hardy - shock factor created. If they didn't do that, then people would've moaned their asses off about how predictable it was.

And as far as Hardy goes - I like the idea, I don't know how it'll pan out. I like the fact that TNA has the cohonies to turn Hardy heel, while WWE had too big of a boner for his merchandise. Plus, I'm quite sure that he's not "Bound for Jail". The sheer fact that this shit took so long just means that something's wrong. If it was a done deal he'd be in the clink already.

Personally, I'd have Anderson in Jeff's place. No matter how good or bad Jeff turns out to be as a heel, I see no bad guy that can surpass Anderson in that department. It would've made sense too, 'cause Anderson was pissed at Angle, they had this brawl on Reaction and it closed down with Anderson saying "you want an asshole I'll show you an asshole". He turned face only to fool everybody because ... well .. he's an asshole.

Either way, I was more than satisfied with the turn out. Could've been better, but what I got was good enough for me. I think a lot of people are mad not because the turn out was shitty, but because they had higher expectations, and if you think about it, they're pissed off at themselves for thinking it's going to be some groundbreaking shit that'll set the world on fire. That just means TNA did a great job to hype it as much as possible, the rest was your imagination. I myself had MUCH higher expectations, that's why I was like "fuck no" when Hardy won but then I started thinking and loved the idea. My biggest issue with BFG was EV2 winning, especially the fact that Dreamer pinned AJ of all people. It was a such a crock of shit. Other than that, I liked the way things turned out. Remember, this just opened the way for new things to happen. NWO was just 2-3 guys in the beginning, and it became bigger and badder. Even if Hardy fails as a heel, he's got a whole bunch 'o people like JJ, Hogan, Bischoff and Abyss that know how to cut a sweet heel promo. Hardy could be the silent World Champion type of guy, Sting-like. I kind of feel that this is what they were going for. Just give it time. If you can't - then don't make pointless threads about it and go watch somethin' else.

All I have to say is that I agree 95% of what this guy just said. Except for the fact that I had no clue who "they" were and I didn't want to figure it out on my own like we usually do. I haven't felt like that since about two years ago. Jeff hardy turning was one of the best things ever and I loved it

 

[johnbragg]

The thing is that the existence of these plot holes is a pretty important part of your argument. If you want them to be so important then they have to be listed and defended.

Plot hole the First: "They are coming." Well, no, they were here the whole time. Eat your turd sandwich, logic!

Plot hole the Second: At the climax of Deception, where it is revealed that Sting was right all along about Hogan, where is Sting? What is our hero going to do to stop the nefarious Hollywood Hogan? Jack shit, that's what he's going to do. Suck on that, consistency!

A lot of people (or maybe not many people? Interesting to see what Meltzer comes up with on buyrates) paid money to see Bound For Glory and have the questions answered, because that's how TNA sold the PPV. Who are They? What is the Deception?

I agree that these questions were answered, or as answered as they're going to get. We know who They are, and Sting was right about Deception. I'm saying that the unanswered questions aren't loose ends to be tied up, or the next chapter in the story. They are simply plot holes. My point is that BFG is the climax to the story. If the big reveal doesn't make much sense at the end of BFG, then it just doesn't make much sense. The audience wasn't left with one or two major questions, they were told that a lot of what we watched in the last few months just didn't count.

Why did Hogan need Abyss in the first place? He couldn't have installed his boy Jeff Hardy as champion in a less convoluted way?

Why didn't Sting do anything effective, at all, in the entire last nine months? He did as much to stop Hogan as I did. Actually, I wrote an idea on the internet that TNA Creative could have read and used. So I actually did MORE than Sting did to stop Hogan from taking over TNA. Where's my $500,000?

Why was Abyss talking about "They are coming" when he was talking about They simply being Revealed?

Why exactly did Jarrett go from being Bischoff's abused doormat to helping them take over TNA? (That's a fair question to leave for Impact, but I doubt that TNA will spend more than one sentence reminding the audience that at the beginning of the year Bischoff was making Jarrett do everything but clean the Impact Zone after shows.)

The PPV delivered a huge piece of the puzzle which is what they promised.

Puzzle is a good analogy. After a big PPV, you're supposed to have most of the puzzle complete. Here, the PPV told us that half the pieces we had were to some other puzzle, because "They" aren't coming, and gives us the outline of the solution, which is NWO 8.0 (NWO Classic, NWO Hollywood vs NWO Wolfpac, NWO Reunited, NWO 2000 with Jarrett and Bret Hart, NWO in WWF, The Band, They).

 

[The Prince of Phenomenal]

Plot hole the First: "They are coming." Well, no, they were here the whole time. Eat your turd sandwich, logic!

Abyss did say "They are coming" but also said "They will reveal themselves" at bound for glory and one other thing why wouldn't he lie u know as a heel normally do

Plot hole the Second: At the climax of Deception, where it is revealed that Sting was right all along about Hogan, where is Sting? What is our hero going to do to stop the nefarious Hollywood Hogan? Jack shit, that's what he's going to do. Suck on that, consistency!

maybe Sting was mad that they didn't believe him and he tried to explain to Dixie once but bishoff suspended him so it was like i told u so u should have listened to me

 

[robroy1977]

I'm gonna look at this from a different point of view. Has anybody noticed how much less loud and excited the impact zone has been recently? I think this could be due to the fact of way too many "faces" and not enough definite "heels". With the angle finally taking shape, the fans are gonna have definite "faces" and "heels!" To give u guys and example I'm gonna list all the wrestlers and talent that were getting face pops.

Angle, Hardy, Anderson, Hogan, Bischoff to a extent, Jarrett, Joe, Sting even though he was perceived heel, Pope, RVD, and even AJ and Flair when they were not with Fortune.

Now you can take Hogan, Bischoff, Jarrett, and Hardy off that list with more wrestlers eventually aligning with "they!"

What this will do is make for more Pops for faces and way more Heat for the Heels! The angle didn't play out perfect, but now you got TNA's number one "face," back to being a good guy and that guy is Sting. Expect him to get major excitement behind him now that Hogan and Bischoff are bad guys now. In the end two of the best "Heels" ever are back, Hogan and Bischoff", and with the addition of Hardy we should be in for some great TV!

 

[harrythem]

Why do people always act as if everything has to be as logical as in real life? Yes, they didn't need Abyss to take out RVD for Hardy to become Champion, and yes, it would've been logical for Sting to just say what he had to say and end this. But this isn't real life, it's fake pro wrestling. It tells a story.

I'm still waiting on where TNA go with this and get most of what you're saying but your opening paragraph I had to question because, judging from comments from TNA writer Vince Russo himself, he sees wrestling as real life. He wants it to be as real as possible (hence why he calls belts props, etc).

Other then that you're spot on, we can semi-judge it but I'd really hold off my assessment until after I've watched Impact on Thursday (I'm holding off of the spoilers this week, as I want to get the WTF moment I got at BFG) as there should be some explanation laid out by then

 

[Mr. Artistic guy]

Perhaps the best thing to do with this storyline is pick all of the holes that are first inevitable ie problems with hogan's surgery and being in THE top stable (up for dispute with fortune there). Then we go ahead and list all of the possible fall-throughs, ones that are likely and ones that are possible and finally sit back, watch impact and wait to be pleasantly suprised at the thing that go better than we expected. TNA is very much at the case of, set yourself up for nothing and your in for a hell of a show usually so live by that, if you can.