Is Ziggler in the doghouse?

Alex Riley just asked someone when the WWE doghouse consisted of being feature as part of the main event storyline and put on all of the 856 shows WWE has to offer.

This is the most interesting Ziggler has ever been. Not because he's doing anything that interesting but because he is finally a good guy (since he got kicked in the head by a badder guy and dumped his girlfriend) and I am curious to see where this leads.

He is basically taking his licks like the top face in the company (Bryan). It seems to be an ongoing theme the last month (Punk's taken his beatings as well and look at what happened to Cody). HHH is establishing himself the bad guy on screen and off. If that means the script calls for the good guys to get knocked down a little that is better for the good guys in the long run.

It's called smark sympathy, sometime it takes years to build and other times it takes 18 seconds.

Then again maybe HHH caught Ziggler staring at Steph's boobs.
 
If someone thinks Del Rio is more over than Dolph Ziggler than they got another thing coming.

Del Rio is a much more credible opponent than Dolph and therefore much more capable of building a feud around.

Overall, even if you might not be quite impressed with Ziggler, it would only be fair to admit he has more going for him than Alberto Del rio, Miz, Jack Swagger etc etc. Anyway, I hope to have a good counterpoint session with you when I return from class.

More interesting than Miz, Jack Swagger, Fandago, etc? The majority will vote yes. That still puts him below:

Daniel Bryan
Randy Orton
The Shield
CM Punk
HHH
Wyatt Family
Ryback
RVD
Cody Rhodes
AJ Lee

There was that report that he may be in the doghouse and some people tend to believe it. The reality is that Ziggler is not as interesting as any of the wrestlers mentioned above. Their are wrestlers who are more talented yet are still trying to find their character (Langston and Cesaro). Let's not forget all the talent in NXT that is looking to come up very soon.
 
Since I'm looking for someone to counterpoint with and not argue I'm not going to flame you because you're simply speaking for yourself and not making it sound like the company agree with your sentiments. I'll ignore that IWC comment because it's not 1997 where only a limited amount of people talk about wrestling since whether people like it or not the IWC is anyone that's talking on the internet about wrestling on a relatively regualr basis and not just one entity.

You cannot ignore the consensus and whether one likes it or not, the IWC is a global community of fans of which we are all apart of. And I directed that comment towards the majority of them that are generally oblivious or ignorant marks. I don't like labeling myself because I am a fan just like any other fan of WWE. However, if I had to give myself a label I'd probably be what is termed "smart fan" because I do not care about popular opinion and I don't care whether one is heel or face. But I am glad you realize it isn't 1997 anymore! :D

Anyway, I disagree on him not having good promo skills and to me saying he has "no personality" is a lie because while WWE has given him the generic cocky showoff gimmick he seems to try to make the most of it when given the screentime for talking and or character development on screen.

I respect that viewpoint. I realize there are those who think Ziggler is the best thing to come along in years. There is no denying his athletic ability and I give him all the credit in the world for being a great worker. He makes his opponents look great and manages to make his own offense look amazing. It is believable and fun to watch. Is he entertaining? I don't personally think so. Look at guys like CM Punk or Daniel Bryan. They are both amazing in-ring workers but they also balance that out by being characters too. Which is an area I think Dolph is lacking severely. He is improving on the mic and talking for himself, which is a step in the right direction. However, he lacks that inate charisma that makes you a big main event star. What is his hook? "The Show Off"? What is it exactly that he is showing off? Because his promos come across as forced and uncomfortable. His material is kind of vague and not very specific to his own personality, which I believe is his problem. Smart fans can spot a phony from a mile away and Dolph is not being himself. He's being a generic guy who is not putting enough of his own self into his character which is why I consider him disappointing. I'd like to see him improve though because if he did, he'd be the total package and a better all-around performer.

I think if some of you guys saw his interviews, his WWE Downloads webseries, or his tweets that the guy has quite a fun personality but it hasnt completely been transferred to his on screen character because of limited promo time.

Actually, Ziggler has had quite abit of promo time since his days as U.S. Champion. He has been a major screen character on RAW & Smackdown every since around that time and he has failed to do another major to show us exactly who his character is. They call him "The Show Off" but again, what is that for? Because his ring work may be a form of showing off but his character is far from that. I'd like to see more from him and a better refining of his gimmick that lets us know who he is and what he is about. He may have a fun personality but what good is that if we aren't getting 100% of that each time he grabs a microphone?

And much to Ziggler's credit since he doesnt seem to try too hard to make himself look good in the ring as much as he tries with others, It's fair to say that his matches with Kofi Kingston, Alberto Del Rio, Daniel Bryan, Rey Mysterio, Edge, Big E, Ryback etc etc has been able to come off as different types of matches and not just those two implementing their spots in a non organic way. I'm basically saying he tries his best to develop chemistry with whomever he's working with which is a plus for any worker since he's also managed to get the crowd engaged in said matches and on his side.

Again, I'm not questioning his in-ring ability. He is great inside the ropes but on the mic, not so much. He bumps and sells well plus he is very safe and seems to protect his opponent. But all of that does no good if he cannot connect with an audience via his character.

Let's also bring in the factor that he does bring in viewers when he has matches. A handicap match with the Shield was able to bring in 500,000 on the same night it lost 200,000 viewers with Big Show fighting them. That looks good on Ziggler's side as well.

That's not saying too much these days. Not taking anything away from Dolph, but the roster is kind of slim and the audience is PG. You put anyone in there with The Shield and they are so boring that the audience will tune in to see them defeated.

Let's also bring in the factor that the person holding the belt some feel Ziggler should be holding seems to be struggling to resonate with the WWE universe in a strong way but is still getting chances.

The same can be said of many talents not getting opportunities currently not just Ziggler.

Overall, even if you might not be quite impressed with Ziggler, it would only be fair to admit he has more going for him than Alberto Del rio, Miz, Jack Swagger etc etc. Anyway, I hope to have a good counterpoint session with you when I return from class.

I would agree Ziggler is better than Del Rio or even Swagger. They have no personality. You put Ziggler in there with The Miz and he'll be shredded verbally on the microphone. Whether one is a Miz fan or not, he is a decent ring worker and he is a large personality. The day Ziggler gets a talk show, he might be able to hold his own against guys like The Miz. Until then, he is not even in that category. Although I will concede that Miz cannot even come close to Ziggler in ring! It's not about personal bias for me with Ziggler. It is more about disappointment considering his potential and Dolph cannot move forward and be a consistent main eventer until he does something to deserve that elevation. Look at past eras: Hulk Hogan, Randy Savage, Stone Cold, The Rock. The common thread is CHARACTER. I'm sorry but Ziggler isn't even close to those guys' league and will not be until he stops playing it safe and starts really "showing off" his own. Just my view on it and I'm sure there are those who beg to differ.
 
Del Rio is a much more credible opponent than Dolph and therefore much more capable of building a feud around. [/
quote]

Daniel Bryan
Randy Orton
The Shield
CM Punk
HHH
Wyatt Family
Ryback
RVD
Cody Rhodes
AJ Lee

You have a good case for anyone except current Orton, current HHH, Ryback, and current RVD. RVD is now the whole f'n slow, Orton and HHH promos are a chore these days, and the only thing Ryback has going for him is that he's a parody of Biff Tannen from Back to the Future. The thing is Cody needs to make the most of this insured push before I can say he's more interssting and The Shield members are great but havent developed standalone characters yet. So overall Ziggler still has more crowd support, brings in more viewers, and is more entertaining to watch than most of the guys in the lower tier title pictures from the WHC on down.


Yet he's not as over as Ziggler and the only reason he's forced down our throats is because they want him to be the next Eddie Guerrero. Plus the only thing he adds to feuds is saying Dog in spanish.
 
I've not seen any signs of him being in the doghouse except losing to Cesaro on Superstars while Alex Riley kept saying he was 190lbs and 5'9. I mean Cesaro usually has to go down to NXT to win a match.

On the shows that most people watch though he's only lost to The Shield 3-1 and Ryback with interference from Ambrose. So as of now he only seems in the storyline doghouse which sees him featured in an angle that is much bigger than chasing Bertie for the big gold belt.

WWE are onto the IWC and work us via guys like Meltzer and Keller these days IMO.

Then again maybe HHH caught Ziggler staring at Steph's boobs.

Triple H would just be glad it wasn't Vince staring at them for a change.
 
I respect that viewpoint. I realize there are those who think Ziggler is the best thing to come along in years. There is no denying his athletic ability and I give him all the credit in the world for being a great worker. He makes his opponents look great and manages to make his own offense look amazing. It is believable and fun to watch. Is he entertaining? I don't personally think so. Look at guys like CM Punk or Daniel Bryan. They are both amazing in-ring workers but they also balance that out by being characters too. Which is an area I think Dolph is lacking severely. He is improving on the mic and talking for himself, which is a step in the right direction. However, he lacks that inate charisma that makes you a big main event star. What is his hook? "The Show Off"? What is it exactly that he is showing off? Because his promos come across as forced and uncomfortable. His material is kind of vague and not very specific to his own personality, which I believe is his problem. Smart fans can spot a phony from a mile away and Dolph is not being himself. He's being a generic guy who is not putting enough of his own self into his character which is why I consider him disappointing. I'd like to see him improve though because if he did, he'd be the total package and a better all-around performer.

Which is true and you might say this is making excuses but Ziggler months ago had taken a shot at WWE by sarcastically by telling someone that to be a show off they had "Constantly say show off with without saying anything of substance" and said right WWE at the end of it.

Here's a pic of the tweet in question:



DZ_tweet_zpsff67c409.png



So take that for what you will because it's something worth considering.


Actually, Ziggler has had quite abit of promo time since his days as U.S. Champion. He has been a major screen character on RAW & Smackdown every since around that time and he has failed to do another major to show us exactly who his character is. They call him "The Show Off" but again, what is that for? Because his ring work may be a form of showing off but his character is far from that. I'd like to see more from him and a better refining of his gimmick that lets us know who he is and what he is about. He may have a fun personality but what good is that if we aren't getting 100% of that each time he grabs a microphone?

Well look at Ziggler's screentime post WWE payback where he was still over but his time onscreen were throwaway matches with 3MB, one promo addressing him being a face or atleast a tweener by acknowledging that he never pretended to be something he isnt which the crowd seemed to agree with, one awkward promo in the middle of a Sin Cara match, and disguising himself as Sin Cara to attack Del Rio as well as injuring Ricardo Rodriguez. The most lengthy talking segment he's gotten since WWE Payback was the MizTV segment promoting the mixed tag match for Summerslam to get the crowd behind him.

Now regarding his persona not translating on screen, I think that's a matter of WWE Creative not giving him freedom to inject layers into his character judging from the above that I posted so it's something he acknowledges and seems willing to improve on based on his recent interviews.



Again, I'm not questioning his in-ring ability. He is great inside the ropes but on the mic, not so much. He bumps and sells well plus he is very safe and seems to protect his opponent. But all of that does no good if he cannot connect with an audience via his character.

Well for whatever reason, the crowd still seems to want to root for him in any situation but I'll say that he'll need to either be given the time or force his way in on making the most of the support from the crowd that he DOES get.



That's not saying too much these days. Not taking anything away from Dolph, but the roster is kind of slim and the audience is PG. You put anyone in there with The Shield and they are so boring that the audience will tune in to see them defeated.

Through No fault of Big Show people tuned out when he wrestled the Shield that night but yes the onscreen roster is a bit thin right now.




I would agree Ziggler is better than Del Rio or even Swagger. They have no personality. You put Ziggler in there with The Miz and he'll be shredded verbally on the microphone. Whether one is a Miz fan or not, he is a decent ring worker and he is a large personality.

Now you might have a good case for Miz as a heel but as of now his act has gotten a bit stale because of nothing to sink his teeth into but I think it would be a worthy duel because Ziggler has had some pretty solid promos.

Specifically the "Are you losing your touch" promo he cut on Jericho last year and the "You're trash" promo against AJ Lee where he methodically paced his words out without yelling and came across as a complete ass.

The day Ziggler gets a talk show, he might be able to hold his own against guys like The Miz. Until then, he is not even in that category. Although I will concede that Miz cannot even come close to Ziggler in ring! It's not about personal bias for me with Ziggler.


As for Ziggler having a talk show, I'd definitely take these segments over most MizTv promos:

http://youtu.be/y3JWJmZ3TB0

http://youtu.be/W0vIgw5NlNU

http://youtu.be/4PYLIgIbAvY

http://youtu.be/EJ-lDk6YVsA

http://youtu.be/YmyqY0E7EDs

http://youtu.be/iARaR9Kk1J8

I dont know whether or not you'll agree but I definitely see something there because he's comfortable talking, uses a lot of Wit, and overall he seems like the dimensions to his personality that WWE creative SHOULD be building his character around even while keeping the "show off" moniker.

It is more about disappointment considering his potential and Dolph cannot move forward and be a consistent main eventer until he does something to deserve that elevation. Look at past eras: Hulk Hogan, Randy Savage, Stone Cold, The Rock. The common thread is CHARACTER. I'm sorry but Ziggler isn't even close to those guys' league and will not be until he stops playing it safe and starts really "showing off" his own. Just my view on it and I'm sure there are those who beg to differ.

Now I can't necessarily put him in the class of those guys or RAW's title picture guys like Punk and Bryan BUT I feel he's definitely worthy of the Smackdown title and being Smackdown's guy...that much I feel he's ready for but again, it's all a matter of him either forcing his natural characteristics into his character during promos or a matter of WWE creative allowing him to be himself more. Either way, he still seems to know how to get the crowd behind him. I mean at Summerslam, he managed to win the crowd over in his short throwaway match after the much better match with Punk and Lesnar right before it while ADR's title defense was much lower on the card. So whatever it is about Ziggler that keeps him in the audiences' good graces enough to tune into his segments or cheer for his matches he needs to build on and not settle because he CAN(doesnt mean he will) lose that support. sound fair enough?
 
On last night's Raw, Ziggler didn't even get a televised entrance for his match. Never a good sign. So he very well could be in the doghouse.

I really didn't expect Dolph to be the latest sacrifice to Bray Wyatt. Previously, Bray cleanly beat R-Truth, who certainly hasn't enjoyed the status of Dolph Ziggler in the past year.

Here's the thing: was anyone expecting Dolph to win last night? Bray is too early in his singles career to be beaten by anyone; so my first thought when watching Dolph stand across the ring from him is that Dolph might be deeper in dogshit that originally believed.

Don't include Kane in this; Bray needed help from his "cousins" to achieve that. I expected R-Truth to job once Bray went it alone.....but not Dolph.
 
On last night's Raw, Ziggler didn't even get a televised entrance for his match. Never a good sign. So he very well could be in the doghouse.

That coupled with jobbing to Bray Wyatt is a meaningless match and seemingly having his feud with Ambrose ditched is certainly ominous, but it could be all building off this rumour to a point where Dolph is allowed to cut loose on the mic and say he's not worried about getting fired because he's never going to get a fair shot anyway.
 
Which is true and you might say this is making excuses but Ziggler months ago had taken a shot at WWE by sarcastically by telling someone that to be a show off they had "Constantly say show off with without saying anything of substance" and said right WWE at the end of it.

Here's a pic of the tweet in question:



DZ_tweet_zpsff67c409.png



So take that for what you will because it's something worth considering.

It is one thing to talk on social media, which anyone can do. It is admirable that Ziggler speaks the truth about backstage stuff. But what good does that do if he isn't developing his character personality?




Well look at Ziggler's screentime post WWE payback where he was still over but his time onscreen were throwaway matches with 3MB, one promo addressing him being a face or atleast a tweener by acknowledging that he never pretended to be something he isnt which the crowd seemed to agree with, one awkward promo in the middle of a Sin Cara match, and disguising himself as Sin Cara to attack Del Rio as well as injuring Ricardo Rodriguez. The most lengthy talking segment he's gotten since WWE Payback was the MizTV segment promoting the mixed tag match for Summerslam to get the crowd behind him.

Like I pointed out before, Ziggler is not the first WWE performer to be shafted by the system. Look at Sheamus. He was heavily pushed on ECW, promoted to the main roster, and then demoted after the whole "King Sheamus" gimmick. He has since rebounded rather nicely and has always managed to both perform in the ring and be a standout personality. Which is again my point about Dolph. He lacks the star power and inate oozing of personality that makes one a top star & company face.

Now regarding his persona not translating on screen, I think that's a matter of WWE Creative not giving him freedom to inject layers into his character judging from the above that I posted so it's something he acknowledges and seems willing to improve on based on his recent interviews.

That's a cop-out and you know it! Big name stars have always risen up and showcases their own talent and personas whether or not the machine was behind them. Look at Steve Austin. He was "the RingMaster" which was quite possibly the worst gimmick ever and he floundered around doing nothing and was stuck doing lower card obscurity feuds. He then got his opportunity, became Stone Cold Steve Austin, and regularly showcased his unique personality. Austin is proof that the WWE machine may not see main event status in you, but if you are good enough you will rise up and become a star. Dolph hasn't done this though he is very skilled in-ring. His personality is sorely lacking and I'd like to see him show us exactly who Dolph Ziggler is and what he is about. Calling himself a catchy name and saying very little on the mic will not translate and smart fans notice things like that. The fact is Dolph Ziggler has no charisma at all and his promos are quite often very boring. Can't you even remember one big promo from him? I sure can't!





Well for whatever reason, the crowd still seems to want to root for him in any situation but I'll say that he'll need to either be given the time or force his way in on making the most of the support from the crowd that he DOES get.

Again, this is the PG era. The crowd will get behind Ziggler or anyone else being overcome by odds or doing flashy moves. That proves nothing to me. Show me who your character is. Take action. It is that simple and Dolph hasn't really broke out and done that.





Through No fault of Big Show people tuned out when he wrestled the Shield that night but yes the onscreen roster is a bit thin right now.

Agreed. WWE fails to make their shows jam-packed with truly "must-see TV" and they've been guilty of cruising on auto-pilot ever since they lost major competition. Namely since they bought WCW and ECW went out of business. I'd like to include TNA but they fail to even do anything to put themselves on WWE's level.






Now you might have a good case for Miz as a heel but as of now his act has gotten a bit stale because of nothing to sink his teeth into but I think it would be a worthy duel because Ziggler has had some pretty solid promos.

There are guys whom you can remember certain phrases or entire promos from because they were that good. Miz did that as a heel. Ziggler hasn't yet, to which I'd like to see that change.

Specifically the "Are you losing your touch" promo he cut on Jericho last year and the "You're trash" promo against AJ Lee where he methodically paced his words out without yelling and came across as a complete ass.

The promo Ziggler had on Y2J was decent but far from great. Great is something people will remember for decades to come. Guys like Jericho, Rock, Austin, Hogan, Savage, and other legends have done those kind of promos. Zig hasn't yet in my view and that's because he isn't 100% reality based. He is a weird name in a gimmick that clearly does not fit his real personality. That is evidenced every time he is on the mic.




As for Ziggler having a talk show, I'd definitely take these segments over most MizTv promos:

http://youtu.be/y3JWJmZ3TB0

http://youtu.be/W0vIgw5NlNU

http://youtu.be/4PYLIgIbAvY

http://youtu.be/EJ-lDk6YVsA

http://youtu.be/YmyqY0E7EDs

http://youtu.be/iARaR9Kk1J8

I dont know whether or not you'll agree but I definitely see something there because he's comfortable talking, uses a lot of Wit, and overall he seems like the dimensions to his personality that WWE creative SHOULD be building his character around even while keeping the "show off" moniker.

You can post hundreds of Zig videos and they are all just reinforcing my point. Ziggler is not deep enough as a character and if he doesn't start showcasing what makes him a "Show Off" he'll be just another flash in the pan to which wrestling and entertainment has had plenty of in its history. Trust me, I have been watching wrestling for awhile and I am now 30. I have seen legends, future legends, current stars, and flukes alike. If Dolph hopes to put himself in the same category with bonafide stars, he's going to have to go all in and start developing a very relatable persona that resonates with fans!



Now I can't necessarily put him in the class of those guys or RAW's title picture guys like Punk and Bryan BUT I feel he's definitely worthy of the Smackdown title and being Smackdown's guy...that much I feel he's ready for but again, it's all a matter of him either forcing his natural characteristics into his character during promos or a matter of WWE creative allowing him to be himself more. Either way, he still seems to know how to get the crowd behind him. I mean at Summerslam, he managed to win the crowd over in his short throwaway match after the much better match with Punk and Lesnar right before it while ADR's title defense was much lower on the card. So whatever it is about Ziggler that keeps him in the audiences' good graces enough to tune into his segments or cheer for his matches he needs to build on and not settle because he CAN(doesnt mean he will) lose that support. sound fair enough?

Really, it is sad how WWE has screwed up the World Title for Smackdown. It used to be the WCW World Heavyweight Title and had a lot of well known legends hold it. It is now nothing more than a glorified mid-card belt used to test up-and-coming potentials. While Dolph has all the potential in the world, he has yet to have that definitive breakout moments in which years later people point to it as his moment that he made it to the top. Most fans these days are under the age of 13 and will cheer for anything. Whether it is cartoony characters like Santino Marella or a guy like Ziggler who does amazing moves in the ring. The real test is what he can do as WWE Champion and the fact that he hasn't won the big one yet tells you I am not alone in my assessment of Zolph!
 
It is one thing to talk on social media, which anyone can do. It is admirable that Ziggler speaks the truth about backstage stuff. But what good does that do if he isn't developing his character personality?

Keep in mind that this is an era where if people aren't in the top tier Main event then they still have to follow a script instead of improvising like in the previous eras.


Like I pointed out before, Ziggler is not the first WWE performer to be shafted by the system. Look at Sheamus. He was heavily pushed on ECW, promoted to the main roster, and then demoted after the whole "King Sheamus" gimmick. He has since rebounded rather nicely and has always managed to both perform in the ring and be a standout personality. Which is again my point about Dolph. He lacks the star power and inate oozing of personality that makes one a top star & company face.

Ok, first off Sheamus got pushed again because he became a workout buddy for HHH ala Batista.....atleast in part. So whether or not Kevin Dunn liked him (because he doesn't) he was going to get pushed again. But honestly, you might disagree with me but even though Sheamus is popular, his character has been ruined by being turned into an Irish John Cena as a face. Which is probably why his booking became directionless during the summer and he was relegated to feuds with Damien Sandow instead of being in the title pictures. Sheamus is very talented but again the superhero face thing is working for him.



That's a cop-out and you know it! Big name stars have always risen up and showcases their own talent and personas whether or not the machine was behind them. Look at Steve Austin. He was "the RingMaster" which was quite possibly the worst gimmick ever and he floundered around doing nothing and was stuck doing lower card obscurity feuds. He then got his opportunity, became Stone Cold Steve Austin, and regularly showcased his unique personality. Austin is proof that the WWE machine may not see main event status in you, but if you are good enough you will rise up and become a star. Dolph hasn't done this though he is very skilled in-ring. His personality is sorely lacking and I'd like to see him show us exactly who Dolph Ziggler is and what he is about. Calling himself a catchy name and saying very little on the mic will not translate and smart fans notice things like that. The fact is Dolph Ziggler has no charisma at all and his promos are quite often very boring. Can't you even remember one big promo from him? I sure can't

Yes "smart" fans noticed things like that. It's funny that you mentioned that because at first people were calling him a smark darling and now casuals are into him as well for some reason. Whatever it is, it's gotten people behind him and as I said before when you're promo time is under 1 minute, the opportunities for an "amazing" promo is few and far in between. Did I say he's in the Stone Cold, Hogan class in terms of "charisma" no? Because I'm not holding him to that standard but I still think he's a good performer with lots of charisma especially off screen.


Again, this is the PG era. The crowd will get behind Ziggler or anyone else being overcome by odds or doing flashy moves. That proves nothing to me. Show me who your character is. Take action. It is that simple and Dolph hasn't really broke out and done that.

So now you're discrediting the audience for liking him?...Brilliant. On top of that this is a copout answer and you know it. If what you said was true then Tyson Kidd, R-truth, and Justin Gabriel whom have flashy moves would be more over than they currently are. Obviously, Ziggler's character is a show stealer that's determined to do what he can to entertain the crowd and has a lot of confidence in himself. If you want to argue the dimensions of the show-off character(on screen) then he shows why he's good and doesnt always tell. simple, effective, and regardless of the elements you try to argue. The crowd is behind and has been for a while now.


There are guys whom you can remember certain phrases or entire promos from because they were that good. Miz did that as a heel. Ziggler hasn't yet, to which I'd like to see that change.

Now true Ziggler doesnt often use catchphrases outside of spinoff material for WWE but when he does that "show.....OFF" thing the crowd will and has said it along with him.

You can post hundreds of Zig videos and they are all just reinforcing my point. Ziggler is not deep enough as a character and if he doesn't start showcasing what makes him a "Show Off" he'll be just another flash in the pan to which wrestling and entertainment has had plenty of in its history. Trust me, I have been watching wrestling for awhile and I am now 30. I have seen legends, future legends, current stars, and flukes alike. If Dolph hopes to put himself in the same category with bonafide stars, he's going to have to go all in and start developing a very relatable persona that resonates with fans!

I have been watching wrestling since I was 6 years old and now I'm 22...I've seen material from the 80s, early 90s, Ruthless Agression, Attitude Era alongside WCW, JCP, and ECW stuff. So chances are I've seen all the legends, future legends, current stars, and flukes that you have seen. So what's your point?....This isnt a pissing contest for who has been a wrestling fan longest, is it?

Either way, the reason his character is a show-off is because he steals the show with his work in the ring and his stuff obviously resonates with the fans already.

Regardless the point of those videos was to show you the stuff he's managed to do with his character with the same name on things that arent on WWE television. He's shown that he can be witty in a cocky but likeable way, develop his own catchphrases and even shows traces of Ric Flair in his delivery on that spin-off he was hosting.Yet he hasnt done any of that on TV. Which I again point to the fact that even when he's more popular than ADR, he was getting less promo time than him when he was in the WHC feud. THAT would have been the time to bring in the confident wittyness, the Ric Flair influenced verbiage, and the super determined aspect of his character. I showed you the videos because I feel THAT is good groundwork to incorporate more into his face character. I hope you arent just undermining that intended point solely because it doesnt fit the agenda you are trying to get across.


Really, it is sad how WWE has screwed up the World Title for Smackdown. It used to be the WCW World Heavyweight Title and had a lot of well known legends hold it. It is now nothing more than a glorified mid-card belt used to test up-and-coming potentials. While Dolph has all the potential in the world, he has yet to have that definitive breakout moments in which years later people point to it as his moment that he made it to the top. Most fans these days are under the age of 13 and will cheer for anything. Whether it is cartoony characters like Santino Marella or a guy like Ziggler who does amazing moves in the ring. The real test is what he can do as WWE Champion and the fact that he hasn't won the big one yet tells you I am not alone in my assessment of Zolph!

Sure, he hasnt won the WWE championship yet BUT he most likely would have kept the WHC if it wasnt for the concussion, double turn, and them coming up with a sensible way to break him from Langston and AJ Lee.


Also, Are you saying that if you're not in the main event for the WWE title then you aren't either good or going to be popular? All I'm saying is I'm not so much worried about him being in the WWE title picture but am opened to it. I'm moreso saying that he deserves the Smackdown title more than anyone that's currently pursuing it. I liked guys like Jake The Snake, Mr. Perfect, Ricky Steamboat etc despite them never winning the WWE gold and yet they are still memorable characters even to this day. I think Ziggler again should be at the top of Smackdown's title picture not Raw's because he's not up there with Punk, Bryan, and Cena on the mic just yet but he can easily change my mind. So no obviously you arent alone in your assessment of Ziggler because no matter how good a wrestler is, he or she will always have critics. Some harsher than others but still he has critics and he/she might silence some of them but not all of them ever.
 
It's hard to tell if Ziggler's in the dog house or not, because honestly, this is his NORMAL booking. Ziggler is probably the only person on the roster who has risen up the ranks by jobbing. This is what he does. He loses matches to everyone on every level of the card. He's lost to Zack Ryder and Alex Riley just as much as he's lost to Sheamus, John Cena, or Randy Orton. He'd probably lose to JTG and no one would blink.
 
Now the rumor is that Ziggler's in trouble for an interview he did during Summerslam weekend. I've read quite a few of them but if what Meltzer's reporting is true then chances are it's the interview where he was talking about being tired of seeing John Cena as the top face in the company and feeling it's time for a change. The thing is Ziggler has actually admitted in interviews that his outspoken nature sometimes puts him in hot water with the company so maybe the problem is that sometimes he's "too" open about his grievances with the company at times. The fact still remains that the fans are still behind him and as I've pointed out his segments still draw pretty well on Raw when he's not given the time or day to really develop his character on screen in the way he should be. Noone care about Alberto Del Rio and WWE is still shoving him down our throats ad nauseum so I doubt it's because he's not "worth the time".

And just so you guys know what interview it is, here ya go: http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2013/08/13/21044381.html

Yup that'd do it... add to that his brothers issues and he's also just signed on for Max Landis' next movie... perhaps he pushed too hard for it (after all Landis is hot in Hollywood so it can't hurt to be working with him) and all told he's in the doghouse.

To me Zig is very overrated - a lot of his "selling" is ragdolling, which is not good all the time. I still question his safety at times too as he seems to oversell to the point of being dangerous, it nearly cos Barrett his career but even the night before that in the Chamber, which many point to as "the night he got over" he was doing insanely stupid falls on the metal risking injury. There's showing off and then there's over doing it and Zig is often guilty of that.

The "lack of potential" Vince sees could be as simple as his name sucks and Vince knows it... it's one of those classic "good idea at the time" names for a jobber who you don't expect or want to do more... which Ziggler certainly seemed when he came in with that gimmick. Now he's stuck with it and it's too late to really go back to Nick Nemeth or a variation, yet Dolph Ziggler sounds pretty stupid in the mainstream... it sounds like a phony wrestler name and that's gonna be hard to sell whoever has it.

I dunno, I think the experiment with him just didn't work - maybe just down to the head injury at the wrong time but I think he'd have been in a similar position about now without it, he'd have lost the belt and people would be "meh" about it, while when it happened to Bryan they were crying foul on every level.

Sucks to be Ziggler...
 
Yup that'd do it... add to that his brothers issues and he's also just signed on for Max Landis' next movie... perhaps he pushed too hard for it (after all Landis is hot in Hollywood so it can't hurt to be working with him) and all told he's in the doghouse.

To me Zig is very overrated - a lot of his "selling" is ragdolling, which is not good all the time. I still question his safety at times too as he seems to oversell to the point of being dangerous, it nearly cos Barrett his career but even the night before that in the Chamber, which many point to as "the night he got over" he was doing insanely stupid falls on the metal risking injury. There's showing off and then there's over doing it and Zig is often guilty of that.

The "lack of potential" Vince sees could be as simple as his name sucks and Vince knows it... it's one of those classic "good idea at the time" names for a jobber who you don't expect or want to do more... which Ziggler certainly seemed when he came in with that gimmick. Now he's stuck with it and it's too late to really go back to Nick Nemeth or a variation, yet Dolph Ziggler sounds pretty stupid in the mainstream... it sounds like a phony wrestler name and that's gonna be hard to sell whoever has it.

I dunno, I think the experiment with him just didn't work - maybe just down to the head injury at the wrong time but I think he'd have been in a similar position about now without it, he'd have lost the belt and people would be "meh" about it, while when it happened to Bryan they were crying foul on every level.

Sucks to be Ziggler...


The only thing I'll say about you're opinion is Barrett's injury had NOTHING to do with Ziggler "overselling". Ziggler was thrown and he can't redirect himself in midair because he's not Superman nor Goku.

What part of that is his fault?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xrqjdp_dnC8


Oh and I think Dolph Ziggler is suppose to sound like a porn star considering that Ziggler was most likely influenced by Dirk Diggler from Boogie Knights and Dolph is the name of Nemeth's grandfather. He even played a porn star in one of Zack Ryder's comedy skits lol.
 
It certainly seems that way. In the interviews that I've seen, he just seemed like he was disappointed with his current status and feels that he could bring more to the table. I guess he just stepped on the wrong person's toes. He's come back from worse though. Hopefully he can get a proper shot to prove himself.
 
The only thing I'll say about you're opinion is Barrett's injury had NOTHING to do with Ziggler "overselling". Ziggler was thrown and he can't redirect himself in midair because he's not Superman nor Goku.

What part of that is his fault?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xrqjdp_dnC8


Oh and I think Dolph Ziggler is suppose to sound like a porn star considering that Ziggler was most likely influenced by Dirk Diggler from Boogie Knights and Dolph is the name of Nemeth's grandfather. He even played a porn star in one of Zack Ryder's comedy skits lol.

He clearly tries to twist as he is flying - he wants it to look like his head hits the table. By twisting he moves out of the position Barrett and Truth expect and need to catch him safely and they adjust cos his head was REALLY gonna hit it if they didn't... that's dead or a broken neck if they don't adjust and Barrett took the hit. If Ziggler takes the bump as intended without trying to twist then it's a standard, if a little more momentum than they'd hope for catch... but he tries to push it and it goes wrong. Never knew that about his grandfather but it still sucks as a wrestler name.
 
He clearly tries to twist as he is flying - he wants it to look like his head hits the table. By twisting he moves out of the position Barrett and Truth expect and need to catch him safely and they adjust cos his head was REALLY gonna hit it if they didn't... that's dead or a broken neck if they don't adjust and Barrett took the hit. If Ziggler takes the bump as intended without trying to twist then it's a standard, if a little more momentum than they'd hope for catch... but he tries to push it and it goes wrong.

Even then, I think if Show would have lifted him up higher on the Gorilla press then it could went smoother. But regardless, I'm not sure if Ziggler was intentionally trying to force himself to twist because again there's only so much control people have over there bodies when they are thrown...especially in that way
 
Worried about Ziggler now. Losing clean to Ambrose (no dq, no interference, no cheat tactic) hurts Ziggler pretty badly.

Not only that, but the Shield went on to further bury Ziggler in a backstage promo after the match.

Ziggler got buried pretty bad tonight. Ambrose beat him clean. No interference, no DQ. Pure clean win.

http://www.wwe.com/videos/the-shiel...ht-of-champions-wwecom-exclusive-sep-26148750

My only hope is that this could hint at the rivalry with Ziggler not being over.
 
I still think a lot of people put WAY too much stock in Ziggler's ovation on Raw after he cashed-in to win the WHC on Del Rio. Some took that eruption as a sign of big things to come for Ziggler, but you have to remember something, WWE and Ziggler were in front of a super smarky crowd that night. So yeah, I don't put too much (or any) stock in a crowd full of people, who broke out a "We are awesome!" chant.

Another big problem I see with Ziggler is he can't seem to cut it on his own. WWE separated Dolph from Vickie, his momentum quickly fizzled out. WWE separated Dolph from AJ, and his momentum is fizzling out again.

Besides his whacky and cartoonish selling, I really don't see too much entertainment value in Dolph. Of course, he has the Perfect (pun intended) look, but looks will only take you so far. I can easily see Dolph being reinserted into the WHC picture again in the future as a chaser, and maybe WWE will decide to put the WHC on him again, but that's about it. Sorry, but by now, I think it's safe to say Dolph won't be one of those guys, who wins the Royal Rumble, main events Wrestlemania, or any other WWE pay per view for that matter.
 
Ok, i cant do it any longer, my first post is is a negative one. I swore to myself i never would do it but i cant resist. Yes Ziggler is in the dog house. He's said something dumb, he did something he shouldnt.. thats it, jobber until something creative comes up.

Plus he got cracked in the head and took out of the picture for ages... so life moved on and wwe realised - "hey, this guy wasnt over that much, we can easily fill the void". And guess what, they did!

AJ Lee getting better reaction and more heat my dissing divas - which by the way is getting over - whether it is terrible TV or not. AJ was great for Ziggler, then he left her, so you could say she did a Shawn Michaels to his Marty Janetti! I'm wrong? She has the gold.. he doesnt!

Ziggler isnt interesting to anyone at this current moment in time. Yes, he gets a reaction from the faithful followers, but apart from that, the "show off" has had his "show stopped".

Until wwe creative work something out for him that can be invested in longer term, he'll make appearances until he has paid his dues with whoever he has annoyed within management.

Take his punishment, keep his mouth shut and deal with it. It happens.
 

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