Is this the dark ages of wrestling?

[Blueshirt]

Wikipedia: "Dark Ages" is a term referring to the perceived period of both cultural and economic deterioration as well as disruption that took place in Western Europe following the decline of the Roman Empire.

Whether or not this statement is true, and I'll get to my argument as to why this is true in a moment, one thing is absolutely clear. Everyone is not happy with the current product today. Were we spoiled by the Attitude Era, the Monday Night Wars, and subsequently left to pick up the pieces after the failed Invasion angle and its horrific aftermath? Is it also possible that maybe the Attitude Era wasn't all that great? Are we forced to believe it was because today's product is just so horrible? Since I have been on this site (i registered in 2007, but I had been reading the forums long before that) I have never seen such anger. Anger towards the product, anger towards the direction of both companies, and most importantly anger towards one another. You have WWE loyalists who refuse to acknowledge TNA, TNA fanboys who refuse to acknowledge that anything could possibly be wrong with TNA, and those who are just so angry at the product that they refuse to acknowledge anything good about it. Which brings me to my ultimate point, wrestling right now is in its own version of the dark ages where things are at such a standstill in the product that no one is happy.

First, culturally, wrestling is at its all time low...err...aside from maybe the early 1990s...but anyway. And let me just get this out on the table right now, I will be going through why BOTH WWE and TNA stink right now, this isn't a TNA sucks thread or Cena sucks thread, it's a everything sucks thread.

First, WWE. I have been watching wrestling since the late 80's. Never before do I remember a time when a face champion was ever booed let alone booed to the extent that Cena is. People are so angry at the product that they are booing a face champ. This may be the biggest sign that something is wrong with the product. Next, and this is the very definition of a cultural standstill, due to its decision to adopt a PG rating, the WWE has completely killed any creative growth in the company. Everything is being pulled back to meet this PG rating which is resulting in the product lacking compelling story lines and memorable characters. At the moment, and whether this is a result of the pG rating remains to be seen, every single character looks exactly the freaking same. There are no personalities, no Rock's no Austin's. There is a the same character tweaked to each personality. Shemus is the irish wade barrett who is the british drew mcintyre who is the scottish batista. Basically, WWE is pushing big men who generally can't wrestle and all have the same personality: angry for no reason. Think about it. What is the last truly great angle that the WWE creative came up with that made you watch week in and week out? Nexus maybe? But personally I am already bored. The WWE is so busy pushing its new bland stars that they are refusing to build up any characters that would make people want to watch.

Next, TNA. TNA, instead of attempting to build its own brand (which, it did try from about 2004 until recently) is attempting to do the opposite of WWE, it's pushing old storylines with old wrestlers. This is just as bad as the WWE. I mean the Nasty Boys, The Band, ECW, you name it, TNA is trying it. This, in some ways, is even worse then the WWE. TNA is attempting to ride the coat tails over angles that occurred some 10 years ago. On the 2nd Impact when Hogan is back, instead of realizing the AMAZING match going on between Angle and Styles, they re-create the freaking Montreal Screwjob. Instead of advancing and building a following, they are going back into old storylines and barely treading water. This is just a disgrace to the men on the TNA creative. There is a reason why the NWO or ECW didn't last forever. Ultimately, people lost interest. Yes, yes, people love nostalgia especially in pro-wrestling and especially attitude era storylines. But there is a reason why ECW and WCW went out of business. People got bored of the storylines, the same characters, the same predictability. Either you evolve or you die, and it seems TNA is heading in the wrong direction.

Finally, economically both TNA and WWE are not doing as well as they would like. Is it possible that the Monday Night Wars were just a special place in history that will never be re-created? Absolutely. But, there is a huge difference in pulling in 6s and 7s in the ratings and going down to low 3's. The WWE must notice that the rating are down leading to less advertising and less money. You can't make the argument that you can with the low PPV buys and blame it on the recession. People don't have money to buy $50 PPVs but they do have the option of tuning in each week as long as they have cable. This isn't about money, this is about choice and viewers are choosing not to watch week after week. Additionally, every article you read is about how the WWE has less viewers for a certain ppv this year then last year. Is it the price? It's absolutely possible. However, it's also a possibility that people just don't give a crap about the PPVs. I can't remember the last PPV I actually cared about.

As for TNA, there is no doubt that they would like to be doing better then they are. They got laughed out of the Monday Night Wars round two and although no one actually knows their PPV #s, if they really were all that good, they would not be stuck in the Impact Zone for each PPV.

So, I think 10 years from now (if there still is a wrestling product...yes that is a bit of an overstatement, but i think with how awful the product is and the insane following that MMA is receiving it is possible) I don't think we should refer to this era as the PG era...that is too kind of a label. I think we should refer to it as the Dark Ages of wrestling where culturally and economically wrestling not only was at a standstill but took an enormous step backwards.

So, there's my opinion...sorry about it being insanely long, I hope you finished. Does anyone agree? Are there positives I'm missing? Please let me know.

 

[Optimist Prime]

The reason good guys get booed these days is because more adults are watching wrestling due to growing up watching it all these years...and because we're in a time (after the NWO, Austin, DX, etc.) where if you're not a badass...you're a pussy pretty much.

Back in the late 80's and early 90's...most of the adults watching wrestling were there to take their kids and didn't really care for it themselves all that much. That's why back then, all of the angles and gimmicks were geared towards children. You had clowns, sailors, policemen, superhero type "warriors", and all these other guys with magical powers or bright and fancy ring attire. Today, you have wrestlers with their regular boring names and much more boring ring attire - but a more "rebellious" and "asshole-ish" attitude. But even that is getting old.

Now all those kids that used to watch wrestling back in the day are older...and still very much involved in wrestling (more so than the adults of the late 80's and early 90's) booing panzy style wrestlers like John Cena. Had John Cena came out in the mid 80's he wouldn't be booed at all. He'd be cheered up a storm. He's just in an era where the good guys aren't as cool as they used to be.

Now to answer your question. Yes. Wrestling has been in a Dark Ages ever since WCW went under. No, not because WCW was always better...but because competition makes wrestling better. Without competition, you have a monopoly and no need to improve your product more than just to keep your current audience happy. And when you're the WWE and have a significant amount of nostalgic power as well...that helps too.

The storylines are boring. The wrestlers are even worse. Sure, they can flip around a little more than the wrestlers of the past...but once they get a microphone it's like watching a National Geographic documentary on birds. You might as well grab a pillow and a blanket because you're in for a nice nap with those guys on the mic.

On top of that...you have idiotic fans who don't understand the nature of competition. They pretty much feel that competition is bad and that the WWE should destroy everything in site in order to continue putting out mediocre-to-horrible programming. So they boycott TNA because of their irrational and completely asanign beliefs...and the whole entire wrestling industry everywhere suffers for it.

 

[harrythem]

Wikipedia: "Dark Ages" is a term referring to the perceived period of both cultural and economic deterioration as well as disruption that took place in Western Europe following the decline of the Roman Empire.

It's also used to talk about the time when witches and magic were the evil of the world as well. Don't think it really has a place in wrestling but, a bit of learning never goes amiss.

Whether or not this statement is true, and I'll get to my argument as to why this is true in a moment, one thing is absolutely clear. Everyone is not happy with the current product today.

No you're being far too general with that EVERYONE phrase. CERTAIN sections of wrestling fandom (namely us internet bods) aren't too happy with the product. The general masses are.

Were we spoiled by the Attitude Era, the Monday Night Wars, and subsequently left to pick up the pieces after the failed Invasion angle and its horrific aftermath? Is it also possible that maybe the Attitude Era wasn't all that great? Are we forced to believe it was because today's product is just so horrible?

It's the fact that, when the Monday Night Wars happened, the whole pace of the wrestling industry sped up and fans expect stupid amounts quickly from their wrestling now. If it doesn't live up to our own stupidly high expectations, then people say it sucks.

Since I have been on this site (i registered in 2007, but I had been reading the forums long before that) I have never seen such anger. Anger towards the product, anger towards the direction of both companies, and most importantly anger towards one another. You have WWE loyalists who refuse to acknowledge TNA, TNA fanboys who refuse to acknowledge that anything could possibly be wrong with TNA, and those who are just so angry at the product that they refuse to acknowledge anything good about it.

This is the internet. If you look you'll find forums where grown men are arguing over which type of babies nappy looks best on their pet dog. It's the haven of the angry and the weird, where people can moan behind a keyboard without fear of having to actually have to look the person their arguing with in the face.

. Which brings me to my ultimate point, wrestling right now is in its own version of the dark ages where things are at such a standstill in the product that no one is happy.

Speak for yourself matey. I'm not blown away by either company, for sure, but there's enough on each show that keeps me entertained. I know if something the WWE does annoys me, then there'll be something on TNA I like, and vice-versa.

First, culturally, wrestling is at its all time low...err...aside from maybe the early 1990s...but anyway. And let me just get this out on the table right now, I will be going through why BOTH WWE and TNA stink right now, this isn't a TNA sucks thread or Cena sucks thread, it's a everything sucks thread.

Ahh, so you acknowledge the early to mid 90s then. You know, that period when WCW didn't have Monday night and was struggling to find it's identity, ECW was just starting and the WWE was still trying to find a new face to help them bounce back from the federal troubles they were having, not to mention the years of running at a loss? So you remember Doink the Clown, Max Moon, Oz, Mantaur, The Yeti and such? Yet wrestling is now in the dark ages? With TNA working to find it's identity while still ticking over, WWE in major profit around the world (albeit down from the attitude era) and millions still watching. If this is the dark ages I can think of many industries (such as the roller derby) that would kill to have even a taste of it.

First, WWE. I have been watching wrestling since the late 80's. Never before do I remember a time when a face champion was ever booed let alone booed to the extent that Cena is. People are so angry at the product that they are booing a face champ. This may be the biggest sign that something is wrong with the product.

Or it could be that fans are bastards. Look at when Batista Vs Big Show was at the Hammerstein ballroom. The fans abused Batista mercilessly. Hell, back in late 96 HBK got mullered in New York by the fans there. Why? Because they could. Sure there's a portion of the audience that don't like Cena but, there sure as hell is a bigger portion that does like him.

Next, and this is the very definition of a cultural standstill, due to its decision to adopt a PG rating, the WWE has completely killed any creative growth in the company. Everything is being pulled back to meet this PG rating which is resulting in the product lacking compelling story lines and memorable characters.

You're right. CM Punk hasn't stepped out as a compelling character at all. Miz just sucks. HBK, Undertaker and the like haven't enhanced their legendary status's during the PG era. I mean, it's not like the previous PG era gave birth to, I don't know, people like Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior and their ilk. No, PG means standstill. Or perhaps it does to you with your glass is empty view.

At the moment, and whether this is a result of the pG rating remains to be seen, every single character looks exactly the freaking same. There are no personalities, no Rock's no Austin's. There is a the same character tweaked to each personality. Shemus is the irish wade barrett who is the british drew mcintyre who is the scottish batista. Basically, WWE is pushing big men who generally can't wrestle and all have the same personality: angry for no reason.

Well of course there's no Rock's or Austin's. The chances of getting one of them is highly unlikely, two stars of that magnitude in a few years is just brilliant luck. The only person that ever compares to them is Hogan, and, before they came along, Bret Hart and HBK sure as shit weren't drawing the numbers or PPV buys that Cena does now.

So Drew McIntyre, who's gimmick is that he gets everything handed to him by Vince McMahon like a pet, is the same as Wade "I lead the Nexus because WWE management doesn't give us respect and we're going to beat it out of you" Barrett who, in turn is just the English version of Sheamus who likes to bully little wrestlers but run from bigger guys? And how the fuck is McIntyre anything like Batista? Even as a heel their characters were completely different. Gross generalizations like that are ******ed.

about it. What is the last truly great angle that the WWE creative came up with that made you watch week in and week out? Nexus maybe? But personally I am already bored. The WWE is so busy pushing its new bland stars that they are refusing to build up any characters that would make people want to watch.

So you ask someone to name one, then name one yourself, but then say it doesn't count because you're bored. To say WWE is pushing bland characters that have no chance I'm going to give you two example of bland characters that, after getting their foot in the door, were able to engineer their own rise to the top, THE ROCK and STEVE AUSTIN. They were just muddling through and, got in the bookers good books, suggested their ideas and, wow, look what happened.

Next, TNA. TNA, instead of attempting to build its own brand (which, it did try from about 2004 until recently) is attempting to do the opposite of WWE, it's pushing old storylines with old wrestlers. This is just as bad as the WWE. I mean the Nasty Boys, The Band, ECW, you name it, TNA is trying it.

So Flair Vs Lethal was a retread? Or did Flair actually job clean to Lethal? Last I saw their was a tag team feud between young guys over the tag titles. Hogan might be wrong, but he's tried to give his rub to Abyss. Anderson's moving upwards, Angel's working with the mid-card guys. The Nasty's and The Band are history. I don't like a lot of what TNA has done but I understand trying to add enough of the older guys to try to get people to watch, while still pushing ahead with new guys.

This, in some ways, is even worse then the WWE. TNA is attempting to ride the coat tails over angles that occurred some 10 years ago. On the 2nd Impact when Hogan is back, instead of realizing the AMAZING match going on between Angle and Styles, they re-create the freaking Montreal Screwjob. Instead of advancing and building a following, they are going back into old storylines and barely treading water.

When Hogan first arrived that was very true, but it's improved a lot since then. TNA's learnt that, although the fans appreciate good matches, they aren't drawing in the numbers they want so their trying to go the more story driven route. It can make no sense sometimes, but at least their trying. I bet if you was booking you'd just say "this sucks. Let's close the company".

This is just a disgrace to the men on the TNA creative. There is a reason why the NWO or ECW didn't last forever. Ultimately, people lost interest. Yes, yes, people love nostalgia especially in pro-wrestling and especially attitude era storylines. But there is a reason why ECW and WCW went out of business. People got bored of the storylines, the same characters, the same predictability. Either you evolve or you die, and it seems TNA is heading in the wrong direction.

If ECW had been willing to try new things, and if Paul Heyman had a bit of business acumen to match his booking prowess, then ECW would've survived. TNA is trying to evolve, it's taking mis-steps, but at least it's trying to take steps.

Finally, economically both TNA and WWE are not doing as well as they would like. Is it possible that the Monday Night Wars were just a special place in history that will never be re-created? Absolutely. But, there is a huge difference in pulling in 6s and 7s in the ratings and going down to low 3's. The WWE must notice that the rating are down leading to less advertising and less money. You can't make the argument that you can with the low PPV buys and blame it on the recession. People don't have money to buy $50 PPVs but they do have the option of tuning in each week as long as they have cable. This isn't about money, this is about choice and viewers are choosing not to watch week after week. Additionally, every article you read is about how the WWE has less viewers for a certain ppv this year then last year. Is it the price? It's absolutely possible. However, it's also a possibility that people just don't give a crap about the PPVs. I can't remember the last PPV I actually cared about.

Manchester United are making a lot less money then they would like. Would you say they're any less popular then they were in the past? The ratings during the Monday Night Wars were amazing, no doubt, but a lot of those fans were casual fans. Hell, Smallville has been drawing some shit numbers for the last season yet I still found it really entertaining. And I'd say I cared about the Money In The Bank PPV because it's always interesting to see who WWE thinks is ready to take that step upwards.

As for TNA, there is no doubt that they would like to be doing better then they are. They got laughed out of the Monday Night Wars round two and although no one actually knows their PPV #s, if they really were all that good, they would not be stuck in the Impact Zone for each PPV.

They're not in the Impact Zone for every PPV. Yeah, they should travel more, and I'm sure they'd like to be able to take it on the road more, and they're starting to do that and pull in the crowds too. As for the MNW2, yeah that was just stupid but, surely they'd be getting shit on if they hadn't had the balls to go for it. Better to try and fail then never give it a go and sit and wonder...what if....

So, I think 10 years from now (if there still is a wrestling product...yes that is a bit of an overstatement, but i think with how awful the product is and the insane following that MMA is receiving it is possible) I don't think we should refer to this era as the PG era...that is too kind of a label. I think we should refer to it as the Dark Ages of wrestling where culturally and economically wrestling not only was at a standstill but took an enormous step backwards.

I can't believe you watched through the "New Generation" shit the WWE put out and still think this is the "dark age". My opinion is, if you think it's that shit and there's a good chance it wont be here in 10 years, then stop watching. If you refuse to even try and see any glimmer of hope, such as Miz, AJ Styles, The Pope, Anderson, Kofi, Punk, etc, then what's the point of being a fan?
And I'd say it's more the CENERA then the PG era, but that's just me.

So, there's my opinion...sorry about it being insanely long, I hope you finished. Does anyone agree? Are there positives I'm missing? Please let me know.

Yeah there are plenty of positives but, as I said above, if you're having to ask others to find them for you, then there's no point in you watching anymore. You're too jaded and, if you can see light entertainment like wrestling in such dark terms, I'd hate to go for a drink with you...

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Most fans are fine overall with the state of pro wrestling. The ones that typically complain are fans that post on message boards and in wrestling forums, like us. There are as many different reasons why as there are stars in the sky I suppose.

Some internet fans are not satisfied no matter what. For example, many will often complain that certain wrestlers aren't being used properly and that they should be given more high profile roles within the company that they work for. That's all well and good, we all do that to some degree at various times. However, even when those certain wrestlers do get pushed into significant angles or roles, then many of those that supported those wrestlers will them will have a change of heart and haters will come out of the woodwork. For a good example of that, just read the various threads on Jack Swagger.

Some internet fans honestly believe that they could run a wrestling company better than anyone else in operation today. How many of them actually put their money where their mouths are? As consumers of the wrestling product, I think it's natural to voice our likes and dislikes with something, but I think that we tend to sometimes lose ourselves and the result is many of us attempting to sound like we know much more than we really do.

Among the biggest problems among internet fans is the fact that so many of us don't watch wrestling to be entertained anymore. We go online and we read spoliers to upcoming shows, spoilers about upcoming matches, feuds or angles, etc. and then we'll go watch and look for something to criticize rather than watch the program as a fan. Don't misunderstand me, if you see something on a wrestling program you don't like, sing out. Watching a show wanting to be entertained but finding something to criticize about and watching a show looking primarily for something to piss and moan about are two entirely different things. The latter is a problem that both TNA and WWE have.

I think that another big problem that internet fans have is that far too many of us look back on the Attitude Era and remember it as something better than it actually was. I was a teenager during the Attitude Era and I thought it was a lot of fun. But, looking back on it, the Attitude Era definitely had its fair share of crap just as any other period in wrestling does. In spite of all the complaints one my hear about the WWE regarding the PG Era, most of the wrestling matches and feuds during the Attitude Era weren't quite the epics some might make them out to be. Not every promo was some masterpiece, not every wrestler practically had charisma oozing from every pore of their bodies. A lot of people look back on certain times in their lives, particularly when they're coming of age, and see things differently than they really were. Maybe your first love wasn't really as hot in reality as you remember her being, maybe your first kiss was more awkward than you think it was, maybe your first car was closer to a piece of shit rather than the classic you thought it was, etc. Same thing applies to wrestling fans and eras gone by.

As far as competition in wrestling goes, I'm all for it. We all know the benefits for competition among businesses and pro wrestling is no different. Having a certain program or company that you support or like more than the other is also natural. Hell, that's a basic aspect of competition in and of itself.

Some WWE fans haven't given TNA a chance and some don't want to give it a chance and that's unfortunate. A WWE monopoly of wrestling isn't necessarily a positive thing and having competition means that talent tries hard as does Creative. On the other hand, that doesn't mean that you should shut your eyes to whatever shortcomings TNA might have either. Some wrestling fans want a WWE alternative so badly that they view TNA through rose colored glasses and willingly gloss over a lot of criticism worthy aspects of the company.

In the end, I wouldn't necessarily worry about a wrestling "dark age". The IWC knows a lot of the ins and outs of wrestling, or at least we think we do since we spend so much time online trying to find out what's going to be happening in the coming weeks about our favorite wrestlers or companies. We'd still find something to complain about, we'd still find some fault in the product. If you look hard enough, you can always find something to hate in wrestling.

 

[johnnymnemonic]

I don't think were in a dark age, but more of a down time. If you're a casual fan who turns into Raw every Monday and if they're lucky possibly Smackdown or even NXT. These fans watch wrestling to escape reality for a few hours.

They love guys like John Cena, who I don't have a problem with, because he has great charisma and easy for the casual fan to like. I think he's a great role model and spokesmen for WWE and even all of pro wrestling. I might not think he's the best wrestler, but he's a great company guy who works hard and any company would love him.

I think the problem is some fans expect way too much out of wrestling and have to be critical at all times instead of just sitting back for a few hours and just enjoying themselves.

 

[knocturnal]

I think the dark ages were when Hogan first went to wcw pre nwo and cruiser weights when WWE was pushing Adam Bomb, dink and others down our throat.