Is the "Size Matters" philosophy dead at this point?

[Chicago1989]

We're way ahead of the days of when most wrestlers were around 6'7", 280 lbs back in the day. In the 80's, that's how you got around. In the 90's, it was still there, but with a mix of "attitude". In the 2000's, it seemed like it was mandatory lol. But now, I'm seeing a change, which is a good thing.

Now that we are in the 10's, I'm starting to realize that size isn't everything anymore. I'm seeing it in the WWE, where most of it's younger wrestlers are now below 6'6" and are becoming successful. They still have some big men in there, but they're not pushed as much as big men used to be. Most of TNA's wrestlers are below 6'5", which further proves it, and all of ROH's wrestlers are pretty much below 6'3", except for Claudio Castagnoli and Chris Hero.

The wrestling business today is focusing on young guys; It's a movement that had to happen. Veterans from the glory days of the 80's and 90's are hanging it up (Except for some exceptions in WWE and mostly TNA). These days, the young guys are taking over and whether they're too small to be taken seriously or not, they'll make up for it with talent.

The best examples of successful, smaller wrestlers are: CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, AJ Styles, and Rey Mysterio.

My question to you is, do you believe that this image of big men is over or fading at this point, or do you still believe in this philosophy today?

 

[Slyfox696]

We're way ahead of the days of when most wrestlers were around 6'7", 280 lbs back in the day. In the 80's, that's how you got around. In the 90's, it was still there, but with a mix of "attitude". In the 2000's, it seemed like it was mandatory lol. But now, I'm seeing a change, which is a good thing.

This is just stupidly false. Not every in the 80s was 6'7" and 280 pounds. Flair, Steamboat, Savage, Piper, Race, Orndorff, Martel, Zbyszko...MOST of the guys who were at the top of the food chain weren't 6'7" and 280 pounds. In fact, I don't believe any of them are any taller than 6'2".

The 90s, especially in the WWF, was NOTORIOUS for having undersized guys due to the McMahon steroid trial. And in the 2000s, aside from Brock Lesnar and the Rock (neither was 6'7"), I can't think of a single wrestler who fits the description of the tall musclebound wrestlers you're referring to.

Those type of guys are rare, especially in the history of big name wrestlers.

Now that we are in the 10's, I'm starting to realize that size isn't everything anymore. I'm seeing it in the WWE, where most of it's younger wrestlers are now below 6'6" and are becoming successful.

As they've always been. Jericho, Angle, Cena, HBK, Bret Hart...all of these guys are 6'2" or shorter.

My question to you is, do you believe that this image of big men is over or fading at this point, or do you still believe in this philosophy today?

No, the big man is not over. It has nothing to do with wrestling, something people don't understand. It's not wrestling that likes the big men, it's American fans who like the big mean. In America, heavyweight boxing has always been where the biggest glory is at. In MMA, when the UFC has a top flight heavyweight division, it's the biggest drawing division in the company. The NFL has become uber-popular at a time when players are extremely big and extremely fast.

Fans love the big men, not the wrestling companies. The wrestling companies don't give a damn who makes the money, as long as someone does. And big men just draw better than little guys. Always have, and always will in the foreseeable future.

 

[Chicago1989]

This is just stupidly false. Not every in the 80s was 6'7" and 280 pounds. Flair, Steamboat, Savage, Piper, Race, Orndorff, Martel, Zbyszko...MOST of the guys who were at the top of the food chain weren't 6'7" and 280 pounds. In fact, I don't believe any of them are any taller than 6'2".

The 90s, especially in the WWF, was NOTORIOUS for having undersized guys due to the McMahon steroid trial. And in the 2000s, aside from Brock Lesnar and the Rock (neither was 6'7"), I can't think of a single wrestler who fits the description of the tall musclebound wrestlers you're referring to.

Those type of guys are rare, especially in the history of big name wrestlers.

As they've always been. Jericho, Angle, Cena, HBK, Bret Hart...all of these guys are 6'2" or shorter.

No, the big man is not over. It has nothing to do with wrestling, something people don't understand. It's not wrestling that likes the big men, it's American fans who like the big mean. In America, heavyweight boxing has always been where the biggest glory is at. In MMA, when the UFC has a top flight heavyweight division, it's the biggest drawing division in the company. The NFL has become uber-popular at a time when players are extremely big and extremely fast.

Fans love the big men, not the wrestling companies. The wrestling companies don't give a damn who makes the money, as long as someone does. And big men just draw better than little guys. Always have, and always will in the foreseeable future.

You have a good point on how it's fans that love big men, not the companies. It is pretty rare that a smaller guy would be pushed and marketed the same as big men in these big companies; It is rare. But I've grown up believing that it was the other way around lol. But you're right..

I wasn't exactly saying that guys were 6'7" in the 80's but it seemed to me that the big man image was beaten into my head for a long time. I might have
also exaggerated a little on the height I used as examples, but there were still big men in 80's, 90's, and the 2000's. These days, there's more smaller guys than big guys, which is saying something..

 

[Slyfox696]

You have a good point on how it's fans that love big men, not the companies. It is pretty rare that a smaller guy would be pushed and marketed the same as big men in these big companies; It is rare. But I've grown up believing that it was the other way around lol. But you're right..

I am, and at least you're willing to recognize that. The only thing Vince McMahon cares about is money. He doesn't care who makes it, as long as someone does. But when you look at the biggest draws in history, they're almost always heavyweights.

These days, there's more smaller guys than big guys, which is saying something..

This isn't really true either. Look at the main-eventers in today's WWE. Cena, Triple H, Undertaker, Edge, Sheamus, Orton, Barrett, Big Show, Jack Swagger, Kane, and anyone else I may be forgetting, are all large guys, either in height or in bulk. Even The Miz is 6'1" and 230 pounds.


When it comes to the main-event, there are still plenty of big guys who are the big draws.

 

[Chicago1989]

This isn't really true either. Look at the main-eventers in today's WWE. Cena, Triple H, Undertaker, Edge, Sheamus, Orton, Barrett, Big Show, Jack Swagger, Kane, and anyone else I may be forgetting, are all large guys, either in height or in bulk. Even The Miz is 6'1" and 230 pounds.

Well, I didn't mean in the main event picture. I meant the midcarders and lower-carders that are smaller and that it's the majority over the big men.

 

[Uncle Phatso]

Mid card and low card have nothing to do with size. Its about draw dude, If your 6'9 and vince pushes you to the moon, you could get in. Or the fans could hate you and your either a gonna be a jobber for life, b get pushed down the ranks, or c go back down to training and come back repacked and hopefully make it again.

You can say that yes, the huge dudes that come in will give you that shock value. But really that only lasts for so long. Look at the great Kahli for example, he comes in and decimates the undertaker. People look at his size, oh wow thats cool. Over the next few years we realise even if he draws in india his only real thing is his size.

Also being big puts extreme strain on a wrestlers body. 250-300 shows on a 6'6 and taller dude's knees are fucking brutal. Another is being 350- 400 pound and over that puts extreme weight on your knees and back even if you do spots even once a week. Its brutal, the better bet if you want a worker is to go with someone 6'2 245-250 pounds than to go rangle up a monster who's 7 foot tall 400 pounds. He's gonna break down quicker than the smaller guys.

So basically if you want people who are going to make a quick buck, go with your taller bigger wrestler. But if you want a worker who's going to make you a buck over his stay get a dude who's regular size. Easier to work, easier to package with your wrestlers that are about the same size. Because lets be honest even 6'3 today is a big dude on the scale. Average male height is like 5'9- 5'10 today.

 

[mickeybabylon]

I am, and at least you're willing to recognize that. The only thing Vince McMahon cares about is money. He doesn't care who makes it, as long as someone does. But when you look at the biggest draws in history, they're almost always heavyweights.

This isn't really true either. Look at the main-eventers in today's WWE. Cena, Triple H, Undertaker, Edge, Sheamus, Orton, Barrett, Big Show, Jack Swagger, Kane, and anyone else I may be forgetting, are all large guys, either in height or in bulk. Even The Miz is 6'1" and 230 pounds.


When it comes to the main-event, there are still plenty of big guys who are the big draws.

First, Vince McMahon absolutely cares who makes the money. The entire history of his company could seriously be told through a series of instances in which Vince cared who made the money. Big Daddy Ritter had to be The Junkyard Dog. Hulk Hogan had to inform us all to say our prayers, take our vitamins, blah, blah (not a part of his AWA gimmick). Ted Dibiase had to be a millionaire. Big Boss Man, Mr. Perfect, Razor Ramon, Mankind, Farooq, The Bashams, Eugene, Marcus Cor Von, Drew McIntyre, Daniel Bryan, Kaval. No matter how over a guy was where he was coming from, Vince often assumed that getting over with his fans was somehow different, and that his fans had probably never even watched whatever promotion that guy had worked for previously. Danielson was shooting that night on NXT- Vince wants guys from the "WWE Machine", and would rather put a guy from that machine who never drew a dime for his company (Randy Orton, for instance) in the main event than a guy who drew everywhere he went (Danielson, for instance).

The biggest draws in history are heavyweights. That's true. That's fundamental pro wrestling, and fundamental everything. Let's table that for a moment, though.

I don't want to speak for anyone, so I won't address Chicago 1989's point directly. I, however, would like to make my own point about a general trend I have observed in modern wrestling.

Modern wrestling revisionism is focusing on in-ring action this decade like never before, and so it is naturally also focusing on the most gifted atheletes of wrestling's past. Ricky Steamboat, Brian Pillman, Mr. Perfect, Arn Anderson, etc. were never hailed during their prime as they are today. And as this happens, guys like Demolition, "Hacksaw" Jim Duggan, The Honky Tonk Man, and even Andre the Giant are slowly being esponged from the record book, disregarded for lack of in-ring talent. Smaller wrestlers are becoming a trend, and it is certainly permeating every facet of the wrestling world.

Now, the main event of the WWE is hardly a place to find "draws" right now. The company is losing business. Nobody's "drawing" anybody to the WWE at the moment. Perhaps our definitions of "draw" are different. A draw, to my mind, is a wrestler who positively affects the amount of money a promotion is making.

Look at it this way: One guy has three dollars, runs a show, and then has six. Another guy has twenty dollars, runs a show, and then has seventeen dollars. Which is preferable? Just because the WWE does more gross business than anyone else doesn't mean whoever happens to be in their main event is a draw. It's generally quite the opposite. Upstart independent promotions, with no national television deal, licensing agreements, video libraries, or built-in fanbase of millions left over from the last time the product was interesting have to either find some draws or shut their doors. WWE, on the other hand, can sit on their hands for about a decade with no draws to speak of before anything really bad starts happening (that decade is just about up, btw).

The indies are a breeding ground for draws... and many of the current American draws are much, much smaller than the 6'7" 280 lb. quota set in the original post of the thread.

But what is the quota you're using? In boxing it's 201 lbs. In MMA it's generally 206. By these figures, just about everyone in the WWE is a heavyweight, and a lot of people who have held junior heavyweight titles in the past are in fact heavyweights (by these numbers, SCSA and Kurt Angle might even be heavyweights).

In wrestling, the quota is usually closer to 220 lbs. or even 240 lbs.

But I want to get back to that which I tabled earlier, about the biggest draws being heavyweights. These are the top ten-selling jerseys in the NFL this season, along with each man's weight:

1. Tony Romo - 226 lbs.
2. Donovan McNabb - 240 lbs.
3. Tim Tebow - 245 lbs.
4. Brett Favre - 222 lbs.
5. Troy Polamalu - 207 lbs.
6. Tom Brady - 225 lbs.
7. Drew Brees - 209 lbs.
8. Peyton Manning - 230 lbs.
9. Aaron Rodgers - 220 lbs.
10. Ray Rice - 210 lbs.

These dudes are HUGE!! The top ten draws in the NFL and none of 'em are over 250 lbs. Polamalu might even be too small to get a WWE tryout match. Now, if we use the boxing or MMA guidelines, they are all heavyweights, but if we use the wrestling guidelines only seven or two of them are, depending on which guideline you use.

Vince uses a lot of big men. That doesn't really mean anything except that Vince uses a lot of big men. Doesn't mean they draw, doesn't mean anything.

Now to finish up my thoughts: You said all the biggest draws in history are heavyweights and I agreed. My point is this: A designation of "heavyweight" indicates that a weight taxonomy is in effect. This indicates that there is a hierarchy. Whenever there is a hierarchy, whatever is at the top of the hierachy is automatically the best. It's the way the human mind works. It's the reason the World Series gets better ratings than whatever the AAA, AA, or A championship games are called. Those figures would remained unchanged even if you completely switched the rosters between the Major League teams and the A teams. That's hierarchy for ya.

But hierarchy only extends to taxonomy; it doesn't permeate it. Why were none of the 300 pounders from the NFL on that top ten list? If heavyweights are such great draws how did all those relatively little guys make the list?

Because as long as you're at the top of the hierarchy, relative doesn't matter. It becomes an individual endeavor from that point. So, in general, as long as a wrestler is a heavyweight he has equal opportunity to draw as any other wrestler, but if he is not a heavyweight than he does not have equal opportunity. This is why I argue that, while I literally agree with you that almost all of the biggest draws in history are heavyweights, I disagree that this point in any way supports the more-subjective notion that big men draw.

 

[Slyfox696]

First, Vince McMahon absolutely cares who makes the money.

No he doesn't. He brought in Ric fuckin' Flair in and made him a World Champion within six months of his debut, which at the time is like a record pace, considering there were only 4 PPVs a year. Ric Flair, of course, being the main guy of the rival NWA, and their World Champion, for nearly a decade.

If Ric Flair can come in and be given the world title in a company where Hulk Hogan was king, then there is no way you can say McMahon gave a damn about who drew the money.

Hulk Hogan had to inform us all to say our prayers, take our vitamins, blah, blah (not a part of his AWA gimmick). Ted Dibiase had to be a millionaire.

WHAT? This doesn't even make sense. First of all, DiBiase wrestled for the McMahons in the 70s for a short stint. Why the fuck does it matter if Hogan came back as the All-American hero and DiBiase came back as a rich snob everyone hated? That makes no fucking sense.

Big Boss Man, Mr. Perfect, Razor Ramon, Mankind, Farooq, The Bashams, Eugene, Marcus Cor Von, Drew McIntyre, Daniel Bryan, Kaval. No matter how over a guy was where he was coming from

Oh my God, no fucking way you just said that. The ONLY guys who had ever been over in that list before coming to the WWF was Perfect and Farooq. No one else had even come close to being in the spotlight on a national stage. Wow, you are dumb.

Vince often assumed that getting over with his fans was somehow different, and that his fans had probably never even watched whatever promotion that guy had worked for previously.

And he was usually right, or at the very least, he was right that no one CARED about the promotion those guys came from.

Danielson was shooting that night on NXT- Vince wants guys from the "WWE Machine", and would rather put a guy from that machine who never drew a dime for his company (Randy Orton, for instance) in the main event than a guy who drew everywhere he went (Danielson, for instance).

Words cannot express the stupidity of this statement. Danielson drew exactly dick in the United States, while Orton is one of the biggest draws in the WWE. How fucking stupid are you? Seriously, that's a question, I want to know. How fucking stupid are you?

I don't want to speak for anyone, so I won't address Chicago 1989's point directly. I, however, would like to make my own point about a general trend I have observed in modern wrestling.

Modern wrestling revisionism is focusing on in-ring action this decade like never before, and so it is naturally also focusing on the most gifted atheletes of wrestling's past. Ricky Steamboat, Brian Pillman, Mr. Perfect, Arn Anderson, etc. were never hailed during their prime as they are today.

Unequivocally false. With the exception of Pillman, ALL of those guys were prime time players in their promotions, in Steamboat's case, in both the NWA and the WWF. Again, another stupid comment.

And as this happens, guys like Demolition, "Hacksaw" Jim Duggan, The Honky Tonk Man, and even Andre the Giant are slowly being esponged from the record book, disregarded for lack of in-ring talent.

Again, completely false. First of all, Andre the Giant will never be expunged (notice the correct spelling). But what else is there to say about a guy who died over 15 years ago? It's not like you can bring him back for reunion specials, he was the first Hall of Fame inductee, one of the first to get a DVD...what more can be done?

The Honkey Tonk Man was just recently featured on WWE programming with Santino's streak as IC Champion. Another fail for you. Hacksaw Jim Duggan still makes sporadic appearances on WWE programming, and this was a guy who was never heralded in the first place. So much failure from one person.

Now, the main event of the WWE is hardly a place to find "draws" right now. The company is losing business. Nobody's "drawing" anybody to the WWE at the moment. Perhaps our definitions of "draw" are different. A draw, to my mind, is a wrestler who positively affects the amount of money a promotion is making.

There are plenty of guys who are positively affecting the money the promotion is making. However, the WWE cannot help the economy anymore than any other business in this country. In case you're not aware, the economy is in the dumps, unemployment is high, and people just don't have money or confidence the economy is going to turn around soon. All bad signs for pro wrestling.

Look at it this way: One guy has three dollars, runs a show, and then has six. Another guy has twenty dollars, runs a show, and then has seventeen dollars. Which is preferable? Just because the WWE does more gross business than anyone else doesn't mean whoever happens to be in their main event is a draw. It's generally quite the opposite. Upstart independent promotions, with no national television deal, licensing agreements, video libraries, or built-in fanbase of millions left over from the last time the product was interesting have to either find some draws or shut their doors. WWE, on the other hand, can sit on their hands for about a decade with no draws to speak of before anything really bad starts happening (that decade is just about up, btw).

Good point if you ignore the fact that in both 2008 and 2009 (and the years before as well), the WWE turned major profits. Idiot.

The indies are a breeding ground for draws... and many of the current American draws are much, much smaller than the 6'7" 280 lb. quota set in the original post of the thread.

Oh yeah? Who?

But what is the quota you're using? In boxing it's 201 lbs. In MMA it's generally 206. By these figures, just about everyone in the WWE is a heavyweight, and a lot of people who have held junior heavyweight titles in the past are in fact heavyweights (by these numbers, SCSA and Kurt Angle might even be heavyweights).

In wrestling, the quota is usually closer to 220 lbs. or even 240 lbs.

In which case Steve Austin would still be a heavyweight.

But I want to get back to that which I tabled earlier, about the biggest draws being heavyweights. These are the top ten-selling jerseys in the NFL this season, along with each man's weight:

1. Tony Romo - 226 lbs.
2. Donovan McNabb - 240 lbs.
3. Tim Tebow - 245 lbs.
4. Brett Favre - 222 lbs.
5. Troy Polamalu - 207 lbs.
6. Tom Brady - 225 lbs.
7. Drew Brees - 209 lbs.
8. Peyton Manning - 230 lbs.
9. Aaron Rodgers - 220 lbs.
10. Ray Rice - 210 lbs.

These dudes are HUGE!! The top ten draws in the NFL and none of 'em are over 250 lbs. Polamalu might even be too small to get a WWE tryout match. Now, if we use the boxing or MMA guidelines, they are all heavyweights, but if we use the wrestling guidelines only seven or two of them are, depending on which guideline you use.

Vince uses a lot of big men. That doesn't really mean anything except that Vince uses a lot of big men. Doesn't mean they draw, doesn't mean anything.

Now to finish up my thoughts: You said all the biggest draws in history are heavyweights and I agreed. My point is this: A designation of "heavyweight" indicates that a weight taxonomy is in effect. This indicates that there is a hierarchy. Whenever there is a hierarchy, whatever is at the top of the hierachy is automatically the best. It's the way the human mind works. It's the reason the World Series gets better ratings than whatever the AAA, AA, or A championship games are called. Those figures would remained unchanged even if you completely switched the rosters between the Major League teams and the A teams. That's hierarchy for ya.

Does this all actually make sense in your mind? Seriously? You're rambling about NFL jerseys, and some how that's supposed to correlate to pro wrestling?

But hierarchy only extends to taxonomy; it doesn't permeate it. Why were none of the 300 pounders from the NFL on that top ten list? If heavyweights are such great draws how did all those relatively little guys make the list?

Little guys? 7 of those 10 guys you listed would be considered heavyweights in pro wrestling by YOUR standards.

Again, you fail.

This is why I argue that, while I literally agree with you that almost all of the biggest draws in history are heavyweights, I disagree that this point in any way supports the more-subjective notion that big men draw.

If that's true, how come the last three times the UFC has drawn over 1 million buys from a PPV, it's always come from a heavyweight title fight?

The fact of the matter is you're wrong, and you can use all the NFL jerseys you want, it won't change the fact you're wrong. Fans like the big guys. Always have, always will. That's why they draw.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Since Sly hasn't really left many scraps for me to pick apart, I'm going to try to find a few drops of what little blood remains from mickeybabylon's posts to lick up.

1. Further to the point Sly made about the American sports fan liking the big, muscular guys in their sports, I'll go to Major League Baseball. In the last 20+ or so years, I think it's safe to say that the time baseball was drawing biggest was the late 90's and early '00s when Mark McGuire, Sammy Sosa, and Barry Bonds were chasing and subsequently shattering home run records. Rickey Henderson stealing bases and Ichiro Suzuki slapping 200 singles is a footnote when you look at it in the grand scheme of how important Home Runs - really the most heralded and obnoxiously overblown stat in all of sports - really is. Why? Because people love amazing feats of strength, and 60+ home runs in a season is just that.

2. Guys in the 300+ lb range cease to be heavyweights and become Superheavyweights. As much as I LOVE Superheavyweights, they've rearely drawn a load of money in modern wrestling. Andre the Giant drew loads of money. Some of my other favorites - Big Van Vader, Bam Bam Bigelow, Yokozuna, Paul Wight, etc. - were never tremendous draws, especially in the absence of a great babyface. Their foils were heavyweights - guys usually 275 and under. Vader was foiled by Sting and Flair. Bigelow was foiled by, well, Lawrence Taylor I guess. Moving on. Yokozuna was foiled by Bret Hart. Paul Wight by The Rock and Steve Austin. None of those guys are enormous. In fact, I think LT is the largest of the babyfaces I listed, and he was the proprietor of what is generally considered the worst main event in Wrestlemania history.

3. When WCW was at its peak, the Cruiserweights jerked the curtain and guys named Hogan and Nash and Goldberg and Steiner (add those guys to your list of champs in the 2000's who were big dudes, Sly) ran the main event, because THEY drew money at the time.

The cornerstone of pro wrestling is the idea that athletes who are larger than life fight one another until someone is dominant. In America, that generally means decent sized guys. That's why guys named Danielson, Kingston, Ziggler, etc. tend to work the early matches (and work well) while guys named Cena, S(h)eamus, HHH, Kane, etc tend to work later.

 

[mickeybabylon]

No he doesn't. He brought in Ric fuckin' Flair in and made him a World Champion within six months of his debut, which at the time is like a record pace, considering there were only 4 PPVs a year. Ric Flair, of course, being the main guy of the rival NWA, and their World Champion, for nearly a decade.

If Ric Flair can come in and be given the world title in a company where Hulk Hogan was king, then there is no way you can say McMahon gave a damn about who drew the money.

WHAT? This doesn't even make sense. First of all, DiBiase wrestled for the McMahons in the 70s for a short stint. Why the fuck does it matter if Hogan came back as the All-American hero and DiBiase came back as a rich snob everyone hated? That makes no fucking sense.




Oh my God, no fucking way you just said that. The ONLY guys who had ever been over in that list before coming to the WWF was Perfect and Farooq. No one else had even come close to being in the spotlight on a national stage. Wow, you are dumb.


And he was usually right, or at the very least, he was right that no one CARED about the promotion those guys came from.




Words cannot express the stupidity of this statement. Danielson drew exactly dick in the United States, while Orton is one of the biggest draws in the WWE. How fucking stupid are you? Seriously, that's a question, I want to know. How fucking stupid are you?

Unequivocally false. With the exception of Pillman, ALL of those guys were prime time players in their promotions, in Steamboat's case, in both the NWA and the WWF. Again, another stupid comment.

Again, completely false. First of all, Andre the Giant will never be expunged (notice the correct spelling). But what else is there to say about a guy who died over 15 years ago? It's not like you can bring him back for reunion specials, he was the first Hall of Fame inductee, one of the first to get a DVD...what more can be done?

The Honkey Tonk Man was just recently featured on WWE programming with Santino's streak as IC Champion. Another fail for you. Hacksaw Jim Duggan still makes sporadic appearances on WWE programming, and this was a guy who was never heralded in the first place. So much failure from one person.

There are plenty of guys who are positively affecting the money the promotion is making. However, the WWE cannot help the economy anymore than any other business in this country. In case you're not aware, the economy is in the dumps, unemployment is high, and people just don't have money or confidence the economy is going to turn around soon. All bad signs for pro wrestling.

Good point if you ignore the fact that in both 2008 and 2009 (and the years before as well), the WWE turned major profits. Idiot.

Oh yeah? Who?

In which case Steve Austin would still be a heavyweight.

Does this all actually make sense in your mind? Seriously? You're rambling about NFL jerseys, and some how that's supposed to correlate to pro wrestling?

Little guys? 7 of those 10 guys you listed would be considered heavyweights in pro wrestling by YOUR standards.

Again, you fail.


If that's true, how come the last three times the UFC has drawn over 1 million buys from a PPV, it's always come from a heavyweight title fight?

The fact of the matter is you're wrong, and you can use all the NFL jerseys you want, it won't change the fact you're wrong. Fans like the big guys. Always have, always will. That's why they draw.

I said that often Vince assumed guys who were draws couldn't draw in his company. Didn't say always. Vince has always respected Flair. Six months is no record pace. Hogan was working in the AWA in December '83 and was WWF Champion in January '84.

Hogan wasn't king in 1992. Warrior was. The PPVs he main-evented got higher buyrates than PPVs Hogan main-evented from Mania 6 through Summerslam '91.

What does Dibiase working for Vincent J. McMachon in the '70s have to do with anything, exactly? Are you suggesting that, during his 80s-90s run Ted Dibiase did not portray a millionaire? Because that would be wrong, and that was the only thing I said about Dibiase.

It matters because I'm making the point that Vince McMahon has often altered the gimmick of a wrestler upon entry to the WWF. I then listed many examples of this happening.

Big Daddy Ritter was a main-eventer in a bunch of different territories. Hogan was on his way to becoming AWA Champion. Ted Dibiase was a main-eventer for Watts. The Big Boss Man was Bill Watts' Heavyweight Champion. Scott Hall main-evented in the AWA. Cactus Jack was a main-eventer for WCW, ECW, and IWA-Japan. Danny Basham was an OVW Champion. As was Nick Dinsmore (Eugene). "The Alpha Male" Monty Brown was a main-eventer for TNA. Drew Calloway was ICW Champion. Danielson held the ROH and PWG Titles. Low Ki was the first ROH Champion.

I didn't ask you how much legitimacy you personally found in any of these promotions. I honestly don't care about that information. I'm mentioning that the promotions exist, that these wrestlers were employed by said promotions, and that during that time, they got over with the fans of that promotion using a given gimmick. Then, when they got to Vince, he changed their gimmicks. I'm not even making a subjective argument here. All of this is factual.

Again, couldn't be less interested in your personal perceptions of the promotions that employed these men. Impertinent to the argument.

Danielson drew everywhere he went, and Orton never drew a dime. I'm making this argument because Danielson positively affected the amount of money a promotion made off of a show by booking him in the main event of that show (a determination made by contrasting attendance and DVD sales of non-Danielson-main-evented shows of a promotion with the same figures for shows that Danielson main-evented), while Orton has either neutrally affected or negatively affected the amount of money WWE made off a show by booking him in the main event of that show (a determination made by contrasting attendance and PPV buyrates of non-Orton-main-evented shows of the WWE with the same figures for shows that Orton main-evented). Do you actually have some sort of counterargument for this one or are ya just gonna let me have it?

You breached the rules expressed in your own rulebook when you wrote "How fucking stupid are you? Seriously, that's a question. I want to know. How fucking stupid are you?" Give yourself one infraction.

All the men I mentioned who were never hailed in their prime as they are today either all have their own biographical DVD (Steamboat, Perfect, Pillman) from WWE or are a focal point of the biographical DVD "Ric Flair & The Four Horsemen". None of these men ever main-evented a WWF PPV during their active career.

Paul Orndorff, Mr. T, King Kong Bundy, Ted Dibiase, Sgt. Slaughter, Sid Vicious, Yokozuna, and Diesel have all main-evented WrestleMania. None of them have a biographical DVD set from WWE Home Video. That was the basis of my argument. (You could sub out Diesel if you want because his wasn't the last match of Mania XI. In that case, though, you have to add Lawrence Taylor and Bam Bam Bigelow to the list.)

Kerry Von Erich died over fifteen years ago, too. They've certainly found ways to bring him up.

Let's calm down with "recent". That was a few years ago that Santino did that. And Santino was making fun of the ridiculous gimmicks of wrestling past. Not really the way you want to be remembered. No dvd set.

Where's the Hacksaw dvd set from WWE Home Video? I haven't seen it anywhere. The guy had a long career. WWF, WCW, held some titles... no dvd set. Because nobody gives a damn about Hacksaw anymore, because he couldn't wrestle.


Any other business in the country? Like, for instance, UFC? Wouldn't UFC count as another business in the country? Recessions are a wonderfully natural part of capitalism. During times of growth, it often happens that extraneous businesses succeed. Recession constrict the availability of opportunities for businesses, promoting efficiency and quality throughout the economy. If the recession is adversely affecting WWE's business I would recommend they invest in some efficiency and some quality.


Didn't say WWE didn't turn a profit. Matter of fact, I listed reasons why they did before I made my point. Then I made my point, which was not in any way dependent on whether or not WWE made a profit. You didn't offer a counterargument so much as you said a random fact that happened to be passing through your mind at that moment. Then you again breached the rules in your own rulebook when you said "Idiot." Give yourself a second infraction.

Mike Quackenbush, Davey Richards, "The Generic Luchador" El Generico, KENTA, Shingo, BxB Hulk, Roderick Strong. These men are all draws and all junior heavyweights. Though I doubt that any of those names mean anything to you because you've never seen them wrestle live or purchased a DVD they headlined. All I can say is you're missing out on all the fun. It's really the most exciting time to be a wrestling fan I've ever lived through. Better than the Monday Night Wars. But it's all on the independent scene.

Oh, are you considering SCSA by the weight he was billed as in the WWF? Yeah, they said he was 255. He wasn't. It's pro wrestling. Exaggeration is everything.

I made an excellent argument about the nature of hierarchy as it pertains to sport. I'm sorry you weren't able to understand it. I'll rephrase it so you can get it: Big man better than small man. But in land of big men, all big men same. *caveman noises*

I said "relatively" little. Smaller than many of their peers in the NFL. But the key word there isn't "smaller", it's "peer". See above for dumbed-down explanation of point.

I got pissed when I read that point about the UFC, because I just explained why the Heavyweight Division is the biggest draw in the UFC. But then I remembered that, again, you weren't able to understand the explanation. Again, you'll need to see above for dumbed-down explanation of point.

That's your closing argument!? I read through all of that for you to just reiterate your opinion, and then iterate that you won't change your opinion? Well what was the point of any of that? If you're not interested in debate why did you attempt to debate me? You could've just logged off your computer if you didn't want to debate. That would've saved a lot of time! Do you often find yourself browsing around stores for forty-five minutes before you realize that you don't have any money? Damn, man, don't waste my time like that.

 

[Slyfox696]

I said that often Vince assumed guys who were draws couldn't draw in his company.

No, what you said was:

First, Vince McMahon absolutely cares who makes the money.

If Vince McMahon is going to let the banner carrier of his most heated rival take the World title within six months of being in the promotion (which WAS an incredible pace), then he didn't care who drew money. Just as long as someone did.

Hogan wasn't king in 1992. Warrior was. The PPVs he main-evented got higher buyrates than PPVs Hogan main-evented from Mania 6 through Summerslam '91.

Warrior wasn't even in the fucking WWF from the time Flair debuted until the time he won the World title. What the fuck are you talking about? And Hogan was still king of the WWF. I'd love to see your source on the PPV buys being higher. And I want actual buys and their source.

What does Dibiase working for Vincent J. McMachon in the '70s have to do with anything, exactly? Are you suggesting that, during his 80s-90s run Ted Dibiase did not portray a millionaire? Because that would be wrong, and that was the only thing I said about Dibiase.

It matters because I'm making the point that Vince McMahon has often altered the gimmick of a wrestler upon entry to the WWF. I then listed many examples of this happening.

You answered your first question with your second paragraph. McMahon altered the gimmick of a worker who had already worked in the company, hardly a new practice for any wrestling promotion and defeats you statement McMahon HAD to do that for everyone. He didn't have to alter everyone's gimmick, he just tried to do what would make money.

Big Daddy Ritter was a main-eventer in a bunch of different territories. Hogan was on his way to becoming AWA Champion. Ted Dibiase was a main-eventer for Watts. The Big Boss Man was Bill Watts' Heavyweight Champion. Scott Hall main-evented in the AWA. Cactus Jack was a main-eventer for WCW, ECW, and IWA-Japan. Danny Basham was an OVW Champion. As was Nick Dinsmore (Eugene). "The Alpha Male" Monty Brown was a main-eventer for TNA. Drew Calloway was ICW Champion. Danielson held the ROH and PWG Titles. Low Ki was the first ROH Champion.

This paragraph is just so full of stupidity I'm not going to anger myself in replying to.

I didn't ask you how much legitimacy you personally found in any of these promotions. I honestly don't care about that information. I'm mentioning that the promotions exist, that these wrestlers were employed by said promotions, and that during that time, they got over with the fans of that promotion using a given gimmick. Then, when they got to Vince, he changed their gimmicks. I'm not even making a subjective argument here. All of this is factual.

No, it's not factual, because the whole point is what fans have seen these guys. Ignoring for a moment how stupid, and at times, inaccurate your previous paragraph was, NONE of those guys had fans in the regions the WWF promoted in. So it doesn't matter what their gimmicks were before the WWF, because they didn't have any fans in the WWF regions.

Again, couldn't be less interested in your personal perceptions of the promotions that employed these men. Impertinent to the argument.

No, it makes all the difference in the world. That would be like saying if I'm WrestleZone Forums Backyard champion using a gimmick of someone who burns himself, I should use that same gimmick in the WWE because everyone already recognizes me with that gimmick. Which is just fucking stupid, because only 8 people come to watch the WrestleZone Forums Backyard Wrestling (if there was such a thing).

You're being incredibly stupid. In fact, if I have to read another ridiculous comment from you, I'll probably just quit responding and just start sending reps instead. This is a waste of my time.

Danielson drew everywhere he went, and Orton never drew a dime.

Wow, it only took the next sentence before you said another thing which is incredibly stupid. I'm done with your idiocy. When you're arguing a guy that was the head of a company that began its spiral towards bankruptcy with him as the champion is a better draw than a guy millions of people tune into see and buy merchandise from, then there's no hope for you. I'm not even going to read the rest of your post.

I'll tell you what. If you feel you actually posted something that doesn't insult the intelligence of anyone with an IQ over 70, feel free to repost it again, and I'll respond to it. Otherwise, don't bother, I won't even read it.


Here's the simple fact, and its an inescapable one, no matter how much you want Danielson's dick in your mouth. Heavyweights draw, in wrestling, in boxing and in the UFC. They always have, and for the foreseeable future, always will.