Is move set an overrated concept?

[Flair is Overrated]

I recently rewatched a match between the prime, WWF versions of the Macho Man and Jake the Snake. I thought it was a great match, not surprising considering it was two all timers in their prime (although they were both heels, which was a surprise, and the crowd was way behind Jake, which is also a surprise as the crowd was also starting to get behind Savage at that time).

One thing I noticed about Roberts was the impact of his move set. It wasn't bad for it's time, but would be considered below average today. However, literally every move he used appeared calculated and impactful. He clearly put in a lot of time and mastered each move in his arsenal. Personally, I find that far more interesting and entertaining than a guy who tries to be the new man of 1,000 holds, but ends up pulling out fancy looking tricks that are executed sloppy and look completely unrealistic and painless.

But I know the Internet is all about perceived work rate, so I'm curious to see what everyone else thinks.

 

[Danger Burger]

Less is more. Work smarter, not harder. If you think you're going too slow, slow down.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Yes, most of us don't pay that much attention to silly things like a guy's move set. I've watched wrestling for 30 years and I don't know or care much for that level of detail. Wrestlers should just make things compelling and believable.

 

[tomthebodz]

I really don't mind what moves a wrestler uses, every wrestler in the world will have moves that they are more comfortable doing, this in my opinion risks injury to both the opponent and the wrestler pulling off the move.

I do however, like it when a wrestler will pull out a desperation move in order to win the match, like when Punk hit Cena with a piledriver. That was awesome and unexpected.

 

[Hard Hit Prince]

The business changes and some of the changes are the pacing of a match and the selling aspect. You gotta keep up, so currently the moveset is something really important to keep things fresh as far as workrate goes. For a five minute match to work in current WWE's audience perspective, you need to put a lot in that. In the past a five minute match was basically a squash, with the guy to push to go out there throw some punches, a signature move and work the crowd.

 

[Danger Burger]

There's a reason why Daniel Bryan only does a variation of seven or eight moves a night.

I can't be the only one that things pretty much every guy on the roster could learn one new technique a day (Excluding Miz and Khali). Think El Torrito can't muster up a bearhug? Brock Lesnar couldn't figure his way around a sunset flip? Rey Mysterio couldn't figure out a power bomb?

Smarter in ring work is a bit of an issue. The contant kicking out of traded finishers makes matches very repetitive. it might look like the problem is that they only have so many moves, but really its that they are too reliant on rushing to the higher spots.

 

[Dirk]

There's a reason why Daniel Bryan only does a variation of seven or eight moves a night.

I can't be the only one that things pretty much every guy on the roster could learn one new technique a day (Excluding Miz and Khali). Think El Torrito can't muster up a bearhug? Brock Lesnar couldn't figure his way around a sunset flip? Rey Mysterio couldn't figure out a power bomb?

Smarter in ring work is a bit of an issue. The constant kicking out of traded finishers makes matches very repetitive. it might look like the problem is that they only have so many moves, but really its that they are too reliant on rushing to the higher spots.

I don't have a problem with this if it's a gigantic match, like the Rock/Cena rematch at WM29 I will agree that finishers should be used less. I remember watching Sandow vs Orton last year and Orton kicked out of two consecutive Elbows of Disdain. Granted, it's a beyond shit finisher, but still...

On the flipside, what about just the constant kicking? Del Rio, Bryan and Punk used to have these loooooong kick-a-thons where they would limply kick at the chest and back of a kneeling opponent. You could plainly see the opponent's hands block the kicks. What would the point of that be? You know what that reminds me of? Ric Flair... Man, I would get tired of seeing half a million chops per match.

 

[Danger Burger]

I don't have a problem with this if it's a gigantic match, like the Rock/Cena rematch at WM29 I will agree that finishers should be used less. I remember watching Sandow vs Orton last year and Orton kicked out of two consecutive Elbows of Disdain. Granted, it's a beyond shit finisher, but still...

On the flipside, what about just the constant kicking? Del Rio, Bryan and Punk used to have these loooooong kick-a-thons where they would limply kick at the chest and back of a kneeling opponent. You could plainly see the opponent's hands block the kicks. What would the point of that be? You know what that reminds me of? Ric Flair... Man, I would get tired of seeing half a million chops per match.

Breat Hart hated Ric Flair for his chops. Actually slapping your opponent was utter markdom and flew straight in the face of Pro Wrestling.

There is a good amount of kicking going on. I think Del Rio changes it up a lot, enzighuiris and stuff, his MMA background kind of explains it too (though its not kayfabe). Being a Mauy Thai practitioner I'm not a big fan of Punk or Bryan's kicks, though Bryan's certainly get the crowd going. Seems like a huge waste of energy though. I much prefer the dropkicks in the corner to the shin kicks.

 

[JohnJohnson]

I'm not saying that each wrestler needs to have a thousand moves to be good, but at the same time I don't think 5 moves cuts it either. I hate when wrestlers use only the same handful of moves because it makes it so repetitive and predictable. I can sit and watch a match, and often call the moves before they happen. You can just show a match card and pretty much play many of the matches out in your head. One thing I liked about Cesaro when he first started getting is U.S. title push, was that he would always pull out a different move in each of his matches. I like that. I like the fact that everytime I watched ROH I've seen a new move. After watching wrestling for 16 years, it's refreshing to see a move that you haven't seen before.

I think mastery is important. I don't like sloppy ring work. It's just awkward. I like moves to be executed excellently(anyone?). I don't want to see matches that are just spot fests either. I would like some sort of middle ground. It's fine to have signature moves. The 5 moves of doom wouldn't be so bad if not for the fact that, in some matches, that is his only offense beside a head lock and some punches. Also if everything wasn't so sequenced. For instance if he would hit a 5 knuckle shuffle on a downed opponent without the 2 shoulder blocks and back suplex.

Another note, I love chops. I couold have sworn Bret Hart used chops. I know he did lots of great work with Benoit who was certainly a user of the chop. Never heard any compaints there.

 

[Dirk]

Inb4 Bret Hart's average mic work

I do like a "five moves of doom" sequence, though. Not that it should be ALL the wrestler knows.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

In wrestling it really doesn't matter how much moves you know (although it seems a lot of wrestlers don't think that way) its about making every move, sell and movement count.

On Monday Cena and Cesaro had an INCREDIBLE match, Cena did more than his part in that match yet in a 20 minute match he hit less than 10 moves, there's a reason why some of the greatest of all time had very limited moveset's, its not about what moves you know its how you use them. For my taste, a wrestler selling the match story is more important than anything else. One time I saw Regal talking about how great Orton is and the thing that stuck out most was when he said Orton wastes no energy in the ring and that's what I'm talking about here. Little things like giving that demonic smile before hitting the hanging DDT, pounding on the mat before hitting an RKO, that psycho look he sometimes get, the look of frustration when he hits the RKO and doesn't get the 3 are all little things Randy Orton does that, when used right can bring a match to a much higher level.

When practiced any wrestler can bring their move set to 1000 moves if they wish but that doesn't make them a better wrestler, it just means they know more moves then they used to, if I learn 10,000 new words by tomorrow does it mean I'm a qualified author? No it just means I know 10,000 new words. Much like a wrestler knowing a lot of moves doesn't teach them how to work a match, tell a story and get the fans into said match, the real art isn't knowing 1000 moves, its knowing when to use those moves to make them mean something.

Overall what's better, a guy doing a 1000 random moves then winning by an armbar or a guy working on the arm the whole match, with a very basic offense, playing to the crowd while doing it, then winning by an armbar? Personally I would take the latter.

 

[Fire Marshall Bill]

One thing I liked about Cesaro when he first started getting is U.S. title push, was that he would always pull out a different move in each of his matches. I like that.

This is common among many new guys receiveing a push. Even Ryback broke out one new move every other week or so that he still uses today against all those jobbers he was beating.

But frankly, if wrestlers aren't flying around the ring, flipping over everything in sight, practically on high wires, it isn't real wrestling and they haven't done a single move.

 

[Galvatron]

Yes it is overrated. The Great Khali proves it every day he is still a member of the WWE roster.

 

[nightmare]

I never understood why Cena get so much shit for his '5 moves' sequence, yet most of those same people sing the praises of Hulk Hogan for doing the same. The man made a career out of a limited use of moves (not really in order); punch, eye rake, clothesline, bodyslam, big boot, leg drop. You can add Hulk-up to that also essentially. Nothing real flashy there- no flips, springboard moonsaults or dives off the top & certianly not a big use of submissions for the most part. Yet he is probably the most famous wrestler ever based on his charisma despite a limited variety of moves used per match.


Its not about using 1000 different moves to be popular (see Malenko, Dean) but how you get the crowd behind you when doing them. Plus the WWE style of wrestling is quite different than in the Indy scene or Japanese promotions. Pay attention & not many guys use a ton of different moves anymore. Everyone essentially sticks with the same few each match & throws something different in once in a while. Even Daniel Bryan does this now even though he knows a shitload more moves than we see on a weekly basis.


Its great to know & see a variety of moves, but if you dont have the other essential tools that make a great star then none of that matters.

 

[Remix]

Said it before, will say it again. Moves don't matter.

 

[Mr. Artistic guy]

I like a wider move-set, but the ability to move outside of that when in a longer match is also highly desirable. I think Samoa Joe's move-set is one of the best, probably ever. Perfect for him, quite large, and most moves work on near enough any guy.

If you look at it:

- Front Atomic drop/Big Boot/Senton splash sequence
- Muscle buster
- Corner backsplash/jumping roundhouse kick.
- Corner Enzuguri
- Suicide Elbow
- Snap powerslam
- Musclebuster
- Corner fashwash and running boot
- STF (occassional)
- Coquina clutch
- Chop to back/running kick/jumping knee

There's probably more, but that is Joe's moveset and it's 10+ strong meaning he has enough variation in it to cover most matches of most length. And if he ever needs to switch it up he can just throw out some power moves, some chops and other strikes and everyone's happy. I think that's where the Cena complaints came from, because his move-pool was reaaallllyy small. Smaller than Hogan's, and that was 20 years ago.

 

[lil steroid meat]

Yes, most of us don't pay that much attention to silly things like a guy's move set. I've watched wrestling for 30 years and I don't know or care much for that level of detail. Wrestlers should just make things compelling and believable.

This.

Although a roster should have some depth.

It would be boring as fuck if everyone was some submissions technician puro expert or whatever.

And if everyone was a high flyer then you would become desensitized to high flying moves fast as fuck.

Every wrestler should do what's comfortable for them.