Is Jeff Hardy the Lamest Heel Champion Ever?

[HiddenInPlainView]

I was watching the last two episodes of Impact that were on my dvr tonight and i started thinking about this. Jeff is so bad on the mic that it is hard to take him seriously. He thinks that if he speaks through clenched teeth that it somehow comes off as sinister. And for me the face paint just looks absolutely ridiculous.

I used to be a pretty big Jeff Hardy fan and this is no knock on his wrestling ability, but i just don't buy him as a heel.

 

[UFOcalling]

I can definitely see your point, Hidden. I think the reason why Jeff doesn't work 100% as a heel, is because the fans are torn (about whether to boo, or cheer for him).

I can't help but think about when WCW tried to turn Sting heel, towards the end of their run. I can't remember the exact dates, but it must have been late 1999ish? WCW creative gave him heel-storylines, but the fans wanted to cheer for him no matter what he did.

Sting wasn't really trying as hard as he could have to be booed though...besides, how could you really boo Sting at the time? He arguably had the coolest entrance in all of wrestling (at least at the time)...the lights would go out, and "Seek & Destroy" by Metallica played while simulated thunder & lightning went off in the arena. I can't remember for sure, but I think Sting was still coming down from the rafters on the zip-line, too? ...or did they nix that all-together after Owen's tragic death? The fans loved Sting at the time, no matter what creative tried.

Similarly, AJ Styles had a hard time getting over as a heel when he was paired with Ric Flair last year. He definitely got better as a heel as time went on, but AJ's moveset ALONE makes the fans want to cheer him.

I'm sure there are other wrestlers from the past that fell into this category, but I can't think of any more off the top of my head. I'm pretty sure that some other posters will be able to come up with some more?

I think Jeff has a hard time getting over as a heel as well, because his character and moveset makes the fans want to cheer him. In my opinion, I think Hardy is doing a better job of playing a "bad-guy wrestler" (as Andy Kaufman would have said) than Sting or AJ did in these situations. At least he's doing a better job with the heel promos, although they could be a LOT better than they are.

I do understand your gripe though, I really do. I think most of the TNA roster (a lot of WWE's too, for that matter) would benefit from some simple acting lessons. I'm actually surprised that these companies don't make it MANDATORY for their wrestlers to take some classes. I seriously think that would really help a lot of the current roster, ESPECIALLY Jeff Hardy. If nothing else, they should be working with a coach that would help them become better public speakers.

Acting and/or public speaking SHOULD be a huge priority for all wrestlers, obviously that kind of thing counts for a lot when it comes to how over a wrestler is (or can become). Maybe the wrestlers are required to take some of these classes? ...I dunno. If I was working for TNA and/or WWE, I'd definitely pitch the idea to hire at least one acting coach that could help develop characters/personas. If nothing else, their main-eventers should be considered for that kind of thing. It definitely wouldn't hurt them.

Sorry for the extremely long reply, and the edit. Good post though, I think this is a great topic for discussion.

 

[KoC417]

I can definitely see your point, Hidden. I think the reason why Jeff doesn't work 100% as a heel, is because the fans are torn (about whether to boo, or cheer for him).

I can't help but think about when WCW tried to turn Sting heel, towards the end of their run. I can't remember the exact dates, but it must have been late 1999ish? WCW creative gave him heel-storylines, but the fans wanted to cheer for him no matter what he tried to do. Sting wasn't really trying as hard as he could have to be booed though...besides, how could you really boo Sting at the time? He arguably had the coolest entrance in all of wrestling (at least at the time)...the lights would go out, and "Seek & Destroy" by Metallica played while simulated thunder & lightning went off in the arena. I can't remember for sure, but I think Sting was still coming down from the rafters on the zip-line, too (or did they nix that all-together after Owen's tragic death?). The fans loved Sting at the time, no matter what creative tried.

Similarly, AJ Styles had a hard time getting over as a heel when he was paired with Ric Flair last year. He definitely got better as a heel as time went on, but AJ's moveset ALONE makes the fans want to cheer him.

I'm sure there are other wrestlers from the past that fell into this category, but I can't think of any more off the top of my head. I'm pretty sure that some other posters will be able to come up with some more?

I think Jeff has a similar "hard time" getting over as a heel, because his character and moveset makes the fans want to cheer him. In my opinion, I think Hardy is doing a better job of playing a "bad-guy wrestler" (as Andy Kaufman would have said) than AJ or Sting did in these situations.

I do understand your gripe though, I really do. I think most of the TNA roster (a lot of WWE's too, for that matter) would benefit from some simple acting lessons. I'm actually surprised that these companies don't make it MANDATORY for their wrestlers to take some classes. I seriously think that would really help a lot of the current roster, ESPECIALLY Jeff Hardy. If nothing else, they should be working with a coach that would help them become better public speakers.

Acting and/or public speaking SHOULD be a huge priority for all wrestlers, obviously that kind of thing counts for a lot when it comes to how over a wrestler is (or can become). Maybe the wrestlers are required to take some of these classes? ...I dunno.

If I was working for TNA and/or WWE, one of my first "acts" would be to hire at least one acting coach that could help develop characters.

If I'm not mistaken Sting did in fact still come down. I remember he did with his feud against Vampiro when the New Blood was around and Owen had been gone for years :'( after that.

But back to OP...it's just so hard for Jeff to be heel because as stated Jeff is a high flyer. How the hell do you boo a high flyer who takes extreme risks just to entertain us. Now if Jeff were to ditch the Swanton and such I could easily boo him. For example:
If he went to the top rope to do it then looked around and said "F-U" to the fans and stopped doing high risk all together..you know like teasing the fans by going with the whole "I know you want to see it but I'm not giving it to you" type of attitude Jeff could break away from that real..tweener state he is in. I say tweener because let's face it people still do cheer him even though he is aligned with a heel group he could still pull off face moments.
As far as Jeff being the "lamest heel" I'd tend to agree with you in terms of believability. I can't buy into the fact that someone who is living a child hood dream can play a bad guy...

 

[mjtilley]

But back to OP...it's just so hard for Jeff to be heel because as stated Jeff is a high flyer. How the hell do you boo a high flyer who takes extreme risks just to entertain us. Now if Jeff were to ditch the Swanton and such I could easily boo him. For example:
If he went to the top rope to do it then looked around and said "F-U" to the fans and stopped doing high risk all together..you know like teasing the fans by going with the whole "I know you want to see it but I'm not giving it to you" type of attitude Jeff could break away from that real..tweener state he is in. I say tweener because let's face it people still do cheer him even though he is aligned with a heel group he could still pull off face moments.

I agree, sorta do what Mick Foley did in his later ECW run where he would do all scientific wrestling & not do the hardcore stuff just to piss the fans off. I still get a kick out of Joey Styles' reaction when Cactus done the side headlock takedown on the floor vs. Dreamer. "Oh wow, how extreme!"

 

[Rayne]

Acting and/or public speaking SHOULD be a huge priority for all wrestlers, obviously that kind of thing counts for a lot when it comes to how over a wrestler is (or can become). Maybe the wrestlers are required to take some of these classes? ...I dunno. If I was working for TNA and/or WWE, I'd definitely pitch the idea to hire at least one acting coach that could help develop characters/personas. If nothing else, their main-eventers should be considered for that kind of thing. It definitely wouldn't hurt them.

Just to clarify, most wrestling schools worth their salt will give lessons on public speaking; virtually everything they teach you involves acting. (I add the "worth your salt", because for every good school there are three run by some jackass who wrestled a couple of weeks for a shit promotion like XPW and operate their school for the ego trip.)

The issue isn't that schools aren't teaching acting; most of the people operating the schools made their bones in the '70s to '90s, when the style of acting in professional wrestling was different. Wrestlers get trained to take bumps and convince the crowd of the 'pain' they are receiving; learning how to deliver a scintillating promo, which continues to become more and more important, is not being taught at the levels it should be.

As far as Jeff Hardy goes, I'll let you guys continue on with the latest "Jeff Hardy sucks" thread without me.

 

[Strife3]

Is Jeff Hardy the lamest heel champion ever? Well im not sure how to really answer this because I honestly think Jeff Hardy is the Lamest champion ever period. I would rather have Doink the clown as a heel champion for the next 20 years then have to put up with Jeff as champion. Anyone in TNA would do a better job.

 

[UFOcalling]

Originally Posted by Rayne
Just to clarify, most wrestling schools worth their salt will give lessons on public speaking; virtually everything they teach you involves acting. (I add the "worth your salt", because for every good school there are three run by some jackass who wrestled a couple of weeks for a shit promotion like XPW and operate their school for the ego trip.)

Thanks for the info, to be honest I didn't know if wrestlers (or would-be wrestlers) are actually being taught public speaking, and/or acting...I mean besides the obvious, like you mentioned; selling "pain", etc.

I think it's a great idea that at least the "good" schools take this kind of training further, but I guess my point was that TNA (and WWE for that matter) should continue these lessons and make them practice their promo skills for just as long as they spend at the gym, or in the ring (regardless of whether or not they're in front of a crowd).

Originally Posted by Rayne
The issue isn't that schools aren't teaching acting; most of the people operating the schools made their bones in the '70s to '90s, when the style of acting in professional wrestling was different. Wrestlers get trained to take bumps and convince the crowd of the 'pain' they are receiving; learning how to deliver a scintillating promo, which continues to become more and more important, is not being taught at the levels it should be.

If I'm not mistaken, you're saying that most of these "new" wrestlers are being taught "old-school" fundamentals (at least when it comes to promo-style)? I think that coincides with my point about this kind of training being essential.

It's great that most wrestlers have at least some knowledge in this area, but more promo-training definitely wouldn't hurt. I was just trying to say that all professional wrestlers would benefit greatly from having a public-speaking/acting coach to work with at least once a week. Get someone with a background in teaching AND wrestling to coach them (either privately, or as a group, or BOTH), and have them backstage at all tapings/house shows/PPVs, etc.

There must be something like this in place already, I remember seeing Ed Ferrara working with The Rock on one of his promos in the movie "Beyond the Mat". I just imagine that it's the absolute bare-minimum. I think there should be a bigger emphasis placed on that kind of training.

Teach the wrestlers to use their own memories and experiences to convey emotion, etc. I just can't see how this wouldn't be beneficial for all pro-wrestlers.

 

[achromat666]

It is harder for high flyers to get heel heat because their in ring style wows the audience and you cheer for what you like to see. Morrison, Kingston, Styles, Supercrazy, Rey Mysterio, RVD Hardy, are all guys that have most of their careers been cheered though Morrison wasn't at first. hell RVD was really a heel through most of his run in ECW but because of his unique offense people couldn't help but cheer him. His bit with Jerry Lynn helped them both but Lynn was the face through much of it. And Van Dam still got much of the fan love.

So it's hard but not impossible. Leaping Lenny Poffo got over as heel by changing his gimmick entirely, and was known primarily as a high flyer in his day. Billy Kidman managed to pull it off, though the first time it was part of Raven' flock. The second time was around his time in WWE when they banned the Shooting Star Press. Brian Pillman, Sean Michaels, hell, right now Tyson Kidd has done well as the high flying heel. Ultimately it's about how the heel push happens and how well the performer can pull it off.

Jeff Hardy is far from the best man on the mic, and making him the center of attention while giving him more talk time is not doing him any favors. He's in a company with guys that have actually been really good heels. Hell whether you like or hate Jeff Jarrett in the ring, he understands how to generate heat, and has been a heel most of his career. Kurt Angle, Robert Roode, James Storm, both members of the Motor City Machineguns, AJ Styles and of course Rick Flair are of have been credible heels, and some of those people are noted high flyers. And really if he wants to do the whole disturbing, cryptic promos as a heel right, have him call Raven.

With Jeff as a heel, the key would have to be the less said the better. Have him brush off the audience and just use the Twist of fate (hate) or something more ground based to finish his opponents. Hell have him tease the Swanton and flip off the fans while doing something else to finish the match. having him with a group of heels is not a bad idea since he's known either as being singles or tagged with his brother. But the heel rub for Hardy isn't enough if he keeps up as he is.

To answer the question Hardy is not the worst heel. Heidenriech Anyone? Great Khali? Big Daddy V? Size does not the heel make. Mind you V made a decent heel but in a bad gimmick (that man should never be outside without a shirt) But the first 2 were awful heels that had the terrible combination of bland characters and bad in ring skill. Much worse heels in my opinion.

hardy has truthfully not done well since getting into TNA overall. Just getting the world title doesn't mean you're skill or persona has improved. I love RVD, but his near immediate title reign did him no favors. Both him and Hardy work well pursuing the belt, but not always as champion.

If they plan on him staying heel they have to do something fast.

 

[Calderownz]

No. He's not. Theoretically, David Arquette was a lamer champion, period. He also finished up as a heel, even though he vacated the title, technically.

That being said, I could actually sight Randy Orton's World Heavyweight title reign (his first one) as being quite lame. It didn't really help him get established. It didn't last long. Nothing noteworthy occurred other than him and Triple H having a problem. He was still technically a heel and it was pretty weak.

Also, The Great Khali as WWE Champion was pretty atrocious. Completely heel. Completely sucked. Not only can he not talk, but he can't work for shit.

Also, Vince Russo was a heel WCW Champion.

So, my list would include Vince Russo, The Great Khali, David Arquette and the first Randy Orton reign as all less impressive than Jeff Hardy as a heel Champion.

 

[hardcore4life_is-KoOl]

jeffs hard to boo for some fans yes (me lol) but for those who take the law to seriesly (like 80% of ppl) alll he has to do to get boo,ed is more drugs the h a r d c o r e fans would hate him get him to snort illegal things into the ring of course im kidding cus his drugs take away his fans heel or face & he can,t even do a good swanton anymore im still a hardyfan and the peaple who dnt know rather boo or cheer him are either like tht cus there young or cus hes not even close to how he used to be

 

[asiatic7]

I agree, the Jeff Hardy heel turn is pretty lame. I think if this was something done in WWE, it would have been a bigger deal. WWE travels all around the country and abroad and you really got to see Hardy's fan base. can you imagine the little kids faces to see their hero turn corrupt? A heel character is really not Hardy's bag because he's not convincing enough on the mic> Never was. But if a heel turn was gonna happen, it should have been in front of a large audience, not the same people twenty-five people who show up to the iMPACT! zone, and a camera man.......

 

[ilapierre]

Hardy is up there with the lamest heel champs ever..he'd be in the top 10 behind The Miz, Sid Vicious, Jeff Jarrett, JBL, and Triple H. Triple H shoulda always been a mid carder but he slept with Stephanie and the rest is history. Hardy's not very good on the mic like Triple H, but the guy at least has ability.

 

[The 5th Horsemen]

TNA has gone outside the Impact zone for taping. The place they chose was Fayeteville, NC which is like 30 mins. form the Hardy Boys hometown. Ric Flair is also from NC, so who do you think the fans will be supporting? Being from NC myself, North Carolinians usually support other North Carolinians unless they are going up against one of the Biggest Faces there is and even then you might have a split. So, TNA isn't really helping make Hardy a Heel if they are going to tape in his backyard. JMO.

 

[RickRockwell]

Just because Jeff didn't really get the boos these last few weeks doesn't mean he's lame... Do you forget the several months when he was champion and the crowd completely booed him? Hardy pulled out some of his best mic work as the "anti-Christ" of pro-wrestling...

 

[S.J. Maximus]

Hardy is up there with the lamest heel champs ever..he'd be in the top 10 behind The Miz, Sid Vicious, Jeff Jarrett, JBL, and Triple H. Triple H shoulda always been a mid carder but he slept with Stephanie and the rest is history. Hardy's not very good on the mic like Triple H, but the guy at least has ability.

I'm sorry this doesn't relate to the topic but I can't help but scold the idiots who claim that Triple H is a mid carder who 'slept his way to the top'. Let's talk about how Triple H was in a relationship with Chyna in real life while he was dominating the main event in 2000. He was the major heel and the Rock's foil for 2 full years before Steph started making moves in real life. Triple H was already a multi-time champ by the time they got married in 2003

But to answer this question yes, Jeff Hardy is a 'lame' heel champion because he doesn't possess the mic skills or charisma to be a dominant heel in wrestling. He was a perfect face because of WWE but TNA doesn't have the fanbase or creativity to keep him interesting

 

[icedragon770]

thinkk the lamest heel champiion would been jack swagger because at least jeff hardy got longer run and some boos because it hard to boo him when he was why i wwatch wrestling because of him and jeff getting better slowly so he is not the lamest because he was face for long time and now he turn on his fans. I think he improve as a heel champion.

 

[JJYanks121]

Yes, Jeff Hardy's mic skills sort of prohibit him from being a good heel, but what hurts him more is Immortal.

Why you ask?

If you want to believe that this character he has created is a good heel (it's not, but maybe it could be), it would have to be a loner character or the leader of a dark stable. He is a follower to a corporate type regime and it just doesn't fit. If he ever wanted to be a great heel, he'd be a loner who played mind games with opponents and he'd change his moveset and even his finisher. Jeff being dark can work, but you can't be dark and serve your corporate master. Even the idiots who dress in black in high school know that!

I think he's severely held back by Immortal. If he was going to go Immortal, he needed to be a corporate sellout. However, they went with this dark character which doesn't make any sense. It didn't work with Undertaker in the Corporate Ministry and it doesn't work now. That's the biggest problem, with the second biggest being that Jeff is just not that talented a guy outside of flying around. Thus, you take that away and he's very average as a wrestling talent and thus, not very credible as a main event heel. That's what I see.

 

[The Black Death]

It's tough to say which wrestler is or was the lamest heel champion ever because it completly depends on your opinion of who's talented or not. Anyone can claim so and so is the lamest heel of face champion ever but there's always going to be someone that thinks differently and will argue that someone else is better or worse.


So that brings me to my opinion, as another poster brought up when guys like Vince McMahon and David Arquette hold the World Championship it's difficult to turn around and say Jeff Hardy's the lamest world champion ever or lamest heel champion ever.


In my opinion Jeff's not the worst heel champion ever and he's certainly not the worst champion ever, other then the already talked about non-wrestling world champs someone who I thought had a terrible reign would have to be Jack Swagger. His title reign was completly rushed and lacked any entertainment value what so ever but again thats just my opinion.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

Yes, Jeff Hardy's mic skills sort of prohibit him from being a good heel, but what hurts him more is Immortal.

Why you ask?

If you want to believe that this character he has created is a good heel (it's not, but maybe it could be), it would have to be a loner character or the leader of a dark stable. He is a follower to a corporate type regime and it just doesn't fit. If he ever wanted to be a great heel, he'd be a loner who played mind games with opponents and he'd change his moveset and even his finisher. Jeff being dark can work, but you can't be dark and serve your corporate master. Even the idiots who dress in black in high school know that!

I think he's severely held back by Immortal. If he was going to go Immortal, he needed to be a corporate sellout. However, they went with this dark character which doesn't make any sense. It didn't work with Undertaker in the Corporate Ministry and it doesn't work now. That's the biggest problem, with the second biggest being that Jeff is just not that talented a guy outside of flying around. Thus, you take that away and he's very average as a wrestling talent and thus, not very credible as a main event heel. That's what I see.

I'm with you here, Yanks.

IMO the dark character and his ability to be a believable heel is all within the realm of plausibility, but him being in Immortal reminds me of when Vince created the Corporate Ministry. The Ministry of Darkness on it's own put Undertaker over as the biggest, most bad-ass and most evil heel on the show. Him being a part of some giant corporate scheme killed it, IMO, and made him seem second rate to Vince.

Hardy is in a similar position. He's not the biggest heel — Bischoff (and Hogan) is.

You take Hardy and put him in this position with a school of lackies to do his dirty work (hello, Raven's Flock), and you've got a much more rooted character.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

The lamest heel champion ever? Not hardly but he's definitely been nothing to crow about either.

Maybe it's because of how much we know about Jeff Hardy behind the scenes, maybe it's how he's been booked as a heel, maybe some combination of the two but I've just never taken Jeff Hardy seriously as a heel. The whole "Anti-Christ of Professional Wrestling" schtick is laughably absurd because...well what's he done to back up his self professed status as wrestling's "Anti-Christ"? He hardly comes across as a badass, his promos have all been extremely short and he's just come across as one of Bischoff's flunkies rather than the centerpiece of a dominant heel faction.

As for his personal life, well that speaks for itself. Nearly everyone on these forums has made at least one joke about Hardy's history with drugs, his looming legal difficulties and how they've affected him in TNA. Even though he has all this stuff hanging over his head, TNA still put their World Championship on him. He's regained the title and I fully expect him to lose it again quite soon because TNA will have to get the title off of him again before his next court appearance just in case this situation acutally gets resolved finally, by some miracle.

I have no trouble booing Hardy but not necessarily for the right reasons you'd boo a heel.

 

[Mitch Henessey]

I like Jeff, but both of his tenures as TNA World Heavyweight Champion haven't been memorable at all so far.

Hardy's Title win and heel turn at Bound For Glory might have been shocking, but I really didn't enjoy his first World Championship reign. His matches with Morgan were either terrible or sub par, and Immortal never really took off as stable. Anderson wasn't the best TNA World Champion, but so far, Hardy really hasn't done anything to wow me as champion the second time around.

I also think the booking of Hardy's character has hurt him. He's supposed to be The Antichrist Of Professional Wrestling, but he's pretty low on the totem pole when it comes to the ranking of heels in TNA. Hogan and Bischoff are both above him as far power goes, and Flair has more influence than Hardy when it comes to running things in Immortal. Hardy just seems like the guy who's holding the World Championship most of the time. He's supposed to be The Antichrist Of Professional Wrestling. He should be leading, not following.

Is he the lamest heel Champion ever? I don't think so. I enjoy heel Hardy, and I do think his dark promos are a lot more entertaining, but he has just been very underwhelming as a World Champion so far. I know Hardy is a big name in pro wrestling, and he would seem like an idea choice for any promotion's World Champion, but his current legal problems have put TNA in a tight spot. They can leave their World Title around Hardy's waist, because he might seem like the best option to become a Heavyweight Champion, but he could face some jail time, and this will continue to be a problem for quite some time.