Is it my imagination or is Reigns getting worse?

[Navi]

Watching Roman Reigns against Luke Harper tonight, I expected one hell of a match. Both are big, powerful and quick, but what I saw as a ton of restholds and Reigns doing the same moves over and moves again. Between right hooks and Samoan drops, that's all he basically does now.

Everyone has been saying he's been steadily improving since Mania, and he might be getting better in some areas, but in others he's falling short. While it's true he has more confidence in the ring, and is much better on the mic than he was before, his moveset is severely lacking, and it's limiting him. He does a good job of selling whatever his opponent is handing out, but for a big guy he just shouldn't be lying around so much. Reigns should be handling these guys no problem, but his matches are becoming increasingly boring to watch. I'm disappointed in Harper tonight as well.

When you look at someone like Kevin Owens who has one of the best moveset's I've ever seen, Reigns needs so much more time. Thoughts?

 

[Aquaman6686]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here and say it's not entirely Roman Reigns' fault. Vince has never wanted his top guys to be overly flashy in the ring, he may be telling Reigns to limit his moves. He's always wanted the top guy to be a powerhouse who can win a match in two or three moves, because Vince is still trapped in that "superhero" mindset. It's entirely possible that Roman Reigns is capable of more, but isn't allowed to show it.

That being said, you can't be judged on potential, only on what is being shown. And in the case of Roman Reigns, what is being shown is mostly crap. He can occasionally put on a good match, but his showing at WrestleMania was vomit-worthy and he hasn't done much to improve since. Roman Reigns shows week in and week out that he isn't anywhere close to ready to be a top star.

 

[Nate DaMac]

He can occasionally put on a good match, but his showing at WrestleMania was vomit-worthy and he hasn't done much to improve since.

Literally every credible source I've seen disagrees with you. Jericho, Edge, Austin, JR, even Meltzer gave it 4 1/2 stars.

Meanwhile you, the guy who has made so many provably wrong statements it's become a running joke at this point, are among a minority who think it was a bad match. You're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion has zero merit.

Having a lot of moves does not make a good wrestler. Being athletic does not mean you're a good wrestler. Telling a cohesive story that works the crowd into believing what they're seeing makes a good wrestler. Now is Reigns great? No, not at all. He's been in the business a grand total of 5 years, he shouldn't have those kind of expectations put on him at this point, but there are very few people who have grasped the concept of selling and storytelling as quickly as he has in such a short period of time. His matches aren't filled with high spots and finisher trading but they do make sense. Everything he does focuses on the head, ribs, and back which are the areas impacted by his two finishing maneuvers. Could he switch it up a bit and do some more? Totally. I would definitely like to see him start incorporating some of the other things I've seen him do into his matches more often but I don't expect him to blow his wad on a meaningless TV match.

Comparing him to Owens is just silly. He hasn't been in the business half as long as Owens.

 

[Aquaman6686]

Literally every credible source I've seen disagrees with you. Jericho, Edge, Austin, JR, even Meltzer gave it 4 1/2 stars.

Meanwhile you, the guy who has made so many provably wrong statements it's become a running joke at this point, are among a minority who think it was a bad match. You're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion has zero merit.

I don't care if god himself proved his existence to the world by descending to earth and saying it was a great match, that would still be wrong. It was a HORRIBLE match. I don't know how much money Reigns' family is paying people to say it was good, but they must have deep pockets. That match was CRAP. It was by far the worst match on an otherwise good card. Literally every other match at WM31 was better. It was 15 minutes of suplexes. Zero ring psychology, zero emotion. The match in history it was most similar to? Triple H vs. Scott Steiner at the 2003 Royal Rumble. You people REALLY need to watch Lesnar/Reigns again, because it WAS NOT A GOOD MATCH.

 

[Xemmy]

I think you're right. Honestly, I actually like seeing Roman in the ring. He's got energy. His moves are fun to watch. He's got a hell of a spear. But he's limited. You get the distinct impression he's not an in-ring general. And you need to be one to be on the level he's been put at. He's still green. Not green as grass, but still green. I think he needs to spend more time in the mid-card wrestling guys that know how to work. I kind of wish he was a part of this massive U.S. Open Challenge wet dream that we've been treated to as of late. It would make for some good matches, and it would put him under that learning tree a bit more. Roman's got it. But he needs more time to stew before he jumps up the card again. For everything: mic and in-ring work.

 

[Xemmy]

I don't care if god himself proved his existence to the world by descending to earth and saying it was a great match, that would still be wrong. It was a HORRIBLE match. I don't know how much money Reigns' family is paying people to say it was good, but they must have deep pockets. That match was CRAP. It was by far the worst match on an otherwise good card. Literally every other match at WM31 was better. It was 15 minutes of suplexes. Zero ring psychology, zero emotion. The match in history it was most similar to? Triple H vs. Scott Steiner at the 2003 Royal Rumble. You people REALLY need to watch Lesnar/Reigns again, because it WAS NOT A GOOD MATCH.

What were you watching man? It was one sided, sure, but it was still a good match. Believable for one thing. It was what the crowd wanted to see, and it was entertaining. It told the story it was suppose to tell. I wouldn't call it a 5 star match or anything. You're right about it being a fuckload of suplexes. But You are dead wrong on the ring psychology and emotion. What it lacked in technical ability, it completely made up for in those areas. It was better than say Taker vs Lesnar the year before. It looked smooth, and it was well executed. For a suplex-fest anyway.

 

[Nate DaMac]

I don't care if god himself proved his existence to the world by descending to earth and saying it was a great match, that would still be wrong. It was a HORRIBLE match. I don't know how much money Reigns' family is paying people to say it was good, but they must have deep pockets. That match was CRAP. It was by far the worst match on an otherwise good card. Literally every other match at WM31 was better. It was 15 minutes of suplexes. Zero ring psychology, zero emotion. The match in history it was most similar to? Triple H vs. Scott Steiner at the 2003 Royal Rumble. You people REALLY need to watch Lesnar/Reigns again, because it WAS NOT A GOOD MATCH.

You can think the match was bad all you want. Again, I'm going to take the opinions of credible observers within the industry over a guy who consistently makes provably wrong statements, but fine. Your opinion. However, the bolded part is once again, a provably wrong statement. Let me hold your hand and walk you through the psychology of this particular match.

So lets start with each guy's initial game-plan. Lesnar had recently decimated John Cena with Suplexes and F5s and little else. This strategy was good enough to dismantle the most prolific champion of the modern era on a grand stage. So of course, that's how he's going to approach this match with a relatively unknown commodity. Reigns, being the cocky young man that he is, probably thinks that he's strong enough to match Lesnar blow for blow. He knows that Lesnar has dismantled Cena and Taker, but he's better than Cena and Taker.

The match starts, both guys go right at each other, and to Reigns's chagrin, Lesnar's power proves to be too much for Reigns to handle. After taking multiple suplexes and F5s, it's time to come up with a plan B. He needs to throw Lesnar off and cause him to deviate from his gameplan. He's not going to out-physical him, so what does he do? I know, I'll laugh in his fucking face. What else does he have to lose? Low and behold, it works. Lesnar, frustrated by not being able to put Reigns away with his bread and butter and angered by Reigns' mocking, elects to inflict further damage on the outside of the ring. There, Reigns' sees his opening and slams his head off the ringpost, drawing blood. For the first time, he has Lesnar reeling.

Now unless Reigns is a total putz and has elected to go into the biggest match of his life without studying his opponent, he'll have seen how both Cena and Rollins were unable to surmount even a one count on Lesnar after several consecutive finishers a mere 2 months ago at the Royal Rumble. So should he start breaking out his regular moves? No way, it's time to start swinging for the fences. He starts raining down Superman Punches and Spears galore, busting out his best weapons in an attempt to keep the big man down. Does it work? Ultimately no because as we all know, after Reigns had already taken 4 F5s and several suplexes, Rollins was able to pin Reigns after a Curbstomp.

I hope you've learned something today.





















Probably not.

 

[MoRtAnDaD]

I was on the "Not Reings on WM ME" wagon, but after i watched him, i changed my mind, the guy was great on his intense match with Brock, even to the point where Brock already got him beaten if it wasnt for Rollins interference.

Sometimes WWE need to avoid its forced marketing over a superstar, and let him/her evolve naturally and organically.

Reigns is not the best, but he is far from be the worst. The guy has some cool moves, can put on good matches and has the look. Not that many guys are allowed to use that many moves on their matches. One of the reasons i think Owens is so high with WWE powers that be, he and cena threw more moves in their 3 matches than the rest of the roster in the entire year.

Moveset like someone already state, is very limited for some type of wrestlers, because they need to follow the formula so the kids know whats coming next. Im pretty sure that if allowed, Roman can do some great moves of their own.

Once again, after the amazing trilogy from cena and owens, i kind of hope that wwe will give more freedom to the performers and maybe we will start to get more cool matches.

As a side note, listening to JBL saying that Cena has won so many matches with the top turnbuckle legdrop after owens kicked out, was a kick in the balls. COME ON! Why say something that stupid when everybody knows that cena has never won a fucking match with the legdrop or the slingshot stunner for that matter. Sometimes saying nothing helps more than open your mouth and say something that stupid.

 

[laodaron]

Roman Reigns is probably the most improved guy on the roster. He gets better literally from week to week. He's getting top 3 pops EVERY night his music hits, people love him, and he's really learning the science in the ring.

I would have to disagree that he's getting worse. But much like the Cena hate, I don't know what could appease the detractors. Cena is in the midcard, giving every single up and comer a rub, and working his ass off weekly, and he still gets shit. Same with Reigns. He's not anywhere NEAR a WWEWHC right now, but people still shit on him.

 

[Prince Vee]

Watching Roman Reigns against Luke Harper tonight, I expected one hell of a match. Both are big, powerful and quick, but what I saw as a ton of restholds and Reigns doing the same moves over and moves again. Between right hooks and Samoan drops, that's all he basically does now.

Everyone has been saying he's been steadily improving since Mania, and he might be getting better in some areas, but in others he's falling short. While it's true he has more confidence in the ring, and is much better on the mic than he was before, his moveset is severely lacking, and it's limiting him. He does a good job of selling whatever his opponent is handing out, but for a big guy he just shouldn't be lying around so much. Reigns should be handling these guys no problem, but his matches are becoming increasingly boring to watch. I'm disappointed in Harper tonight as well.

When you look at someone like Kevin Owens who has one of the best moveset's I've ever seen, Reigns needs so much more time. Thoughts?

I corroborate with you completely and thank you because I was about to post something similar regarding Roman Reigns. With the intensity and talents that Kevin Owens, Rusev, Bray Wyatt and Cesaro has shown over the last few weeks its terribly difficult to make people believe that Roman Reigns is the one.

He has improved in the mic I do agree with that and I also agree that He's more lubricative in the ring. But the biggest problem is, he's animated. He doesn't have the killer look. His actions and gestures before manuevering Superman Punch or Spear is utterly dreadful. Because those aren't natural for him.

He has limited his moveset or is that Paul Hetman said before Wrestlemania. Roman Reigns is just another Samoan who just knows to punch and tackle?

Indeed I've to state this. He lays flat on the mat so often and trying to get that Hulk pump. It doesn't work for him. He should change the way he wrestles.

In a nutshell, he has improved in some aspects but he still doesn't have the calibre to be the One!

Cheers!!

 

[Richard Blonoff]

Navi, you are usually one of the posters who makes me not want to smash my head against the desk after having to do my mod duties for this section but I have to disagree with you here. Nate nailed down a large part of it, having a large number of moves in your arsenal doesn't automatically make you a great wrestler. Being able to use those moves to tell a cohesive and logical story are what make you a good wrestler. While Reigns isn't great, he is good considering the amount of time he has been in the wrestling business. The moves he does have are done in such a manner that they set up well for his finishing and signature moves.

Take the match with Harper on Raw. For much of the match, Harper focused on on Reign's left arm. Why the left and not the right when Reigns punches with his right is odd but irrelevant. Because of this, Reigns wasn't able to use most of his power moves as efficiently as he normally would, he sold the arm damage throughout the match very well, and it made the times he was able to pull out a big slam all the more impressive. Because of the arm damage/injury he wasn't able to pull out his big moves as well as he would have liked, and I think both men did a good job of selling that.

I love high spots and flippy moves as much as the next guy, but being able to do a bunch of them doesn't make you a good wrestler by default.

 

[ASKane]

Roman Reigns has been improving alot since his debut, as he gets more experience he gets better. His matches against Harper and Wyatt were both high quality entertaining matches. As for the limited move set against Harper he was selling an injury to his left arm meaning that it would be ridiculous for him to hit power moves that require full use of both arms so he had to use his 1 arm Samoan drop as well as strikes.

In general Reigns is one of the biggest victims of WWE's booking formula. When WWE books matches the heel controls the majority of the match and hits about 60-80% of the offensive moves which means that they require the use of a large move set, this is where Owens shines, he controls the pace and uses his large move set to do so which makes him look good. On the other hand as a face Reigns hits 20-40% of moves and the majority are his finishing spots which makes it appear as if he has a limited move set despite the fact that he has added a number of new moves, he just doesn't get to do them every match because WWE books him to in the comeback role. This is why he should turn heel, let him control the pace and show off a large move set and people would rate him higher.

In terms of his improvement not move set based he has shown excellent selling and psychology and is able of telling a good story in his matches. In terms of psychology I think Reigns was the only wrestler bar Miz to sell the injuries they suffered at the PPV on Raw, Reigns sold the injury to the arm and Miz sold the injury from the KO punch but Lesnar, Owens, Cena, Sheamus and Orton didn't show any signs of having physical matches the night before. Lesnar took 1 chokeslam and 2 tombstones but on Raw looked fresh.

Reigns is a high quality talent who is improving and just needs Vince to book him in a way to show off his full moveset and currently that will only happen with a heel turn due to WWE's booking formula

 

[Mustang Sally]

Vince has never wanted his top guys to be overly flashy in the ring, he may be telling Reigns to limit his moves.

That makes sense. As I see it, after (wisely) changing their minds about installing Reigns as world champion at WM31, I believe WWE management decided on a course that involved tearing him down in order to build him back up. It's a continuing process and we're seeing it week by week.

At this stage, it could be they've given him the 'KISS' command (keep it simple, stupid!) and told him to limit his moveset......to do fewer things but perfect the things he is doing. As he improves further, they add more stuff until he becomes a finished product.

Of course, it's not as if they plan to take him off the road to accomplish all this, so we'll be privy to his learning process on our TV screens.

 

[Slyfox696]

Watching Roman Reigns against Luke Harper tonight, I expected one hell of a match. Both are big, powerful and quick, but what I saw as a ton of restholds

Things like this are why the IWC is ruining pro wrestling. Restholds do exist, but rarely. Things which the IWC consider "restholds" are not restholds at all, it is called working.

Everyone has been saying he's been steadily improving since Mania, and he might be getting better in some areas, but in others he's falling short. While it's true he has more confidence in the ring, and is much better on the mic than he was before, his moveset is severely lacking, and it's limiting him.

Who cares? No one but an ignorant IWC mark thinks number of moves matter. Are you an ignorant IWC mark?

The fact is Roman Reigns has been very solid in the ring throughout 2015.

When you look at someone like Kevin Owens who has one of the best moveset's I've ever seen, Reigns needs so much more time. Thoughts?

My thoughts are someone who thinks number of moves actually matter in determining the quality of a pro wrestler is someone who has no idea what they are talking about.

The number of moves a person uses has ZERO to do with how good of a worker they are. There is NO correlation to having more moves and being a better worker (though, ironically, there is some correlation between large movesets and being poor workers..likely because the poor workers are trying to compensate for the fact they aren't good).

Do you really think a pro wrestler at the WWE level cannot do 90% of the moves everyone else uses? Do you really think the only thing which matters in being a good wrestler is the number of moves a person does on offense? Because, if so, you shouldn't be judging what it means to be a pro wrestler.

It was a HORRIBLE match.

No it wasn't. Anyone who thinks the Reigns/Lesnar match at Wrestlemania was horrible must have not actually seen it. It was fantastic and far better than what I ever would have expected.

It was by far the worst match on an otherwise good card.

No, just no.

Zero ring psychology, zero emotion.

Ahh, I see what's going on here. You didn't actually watch the match.

Do you even understand what ring psychology is? I bet you do not.

 

[laodaron]

How about John Cena either turns heel or loses a match for once?

For what purpose? The vast MINORITY of smarks that demand it? Same for Roman Reigns. He's SUPER over. Have the super over faces lose often is a formula to ruin them.

 

[OYDK]

I do think Reigns' moveset can improve because right now it legitimately consists of just different variations of uppercuts and clotheslines, a samoan drop, apron dropkick, SMP, and Spear. I think he could be a guy who, like Lesnar, could use the suplex to his advantage... if he added say, a german, t-bone, and belly to belly to his arsenal, along with something like a pump-handle, his matches could have much more depth. He also needs to utilize that sit-down powerbomb more in my opinion.

However with that being said, I've been much more into his matches in the past few months than I did when he first started out. As others have pointed out, he's taken considerably well to the art of ring psychology and selling and therefore he can put on pretty good matches with his limited moveset. I can't say that I've been bored to tears by anything he's churned out lately and that itself is an improvement.

I wouldn't say he's getting worse, far from it actually.

 

[Navi]

Navi, you are usually one of the posters who makes me not want to smash my head against the desk after having to do my mod duties for this section but I have to disagree with you here. Nate nailed down a large part of it, having a large number of moves in your arsenal doesn't automatically make you a great wrestler. Being able to use those moves to tell a cohesive and logical story are what make you a good wrestler. While Reigns isn't great, he is good considering the amount of time he has been in the wrestling business. The moves he does have are done in such a manner that they set up well for his finishing and signature moves.

Take the match with Harper on Raw. For much of the match, Harper focused on on Reign's left arm. Why the left and not the right when Reigns punches with his right is odd but irrelevant. Because of this, Reigns wasn't able to use most of his power moves as efficiently as he normally would, he sold the arm damage throughout the match very well, and it made the times he was able to pull out a big slam all the more impressive. Because of the arm damage/injury he wasn't able to pull out his big moves as well as he would have liked, and I think both men did a good job of selling that.

I love high spots and flippy moves as much as the next guy, but being able to do a bunch of them doesn't make you a good wrestler by default.

Oh I'm sorry Yaz that I made you smash your head, won't happen again.

It's just that he's been improving so much. Maybe it's because I"m not getting this feud with Wyatt I'm being so negative about it. Or could it be because I'm not a fan of Wyatt's. I just think that watching Reigns over the years starting in NXT, he can do so much more than what he does now. Just me wishing he'd bust out some of his other moves, and take the guys head off.

 

[Thejock83]

It's your imagination. Or more likely, some people just look for something to complain about.

 

[BestSportsEntertainer]

He's not as good as John Cena, Kevin Owens, or Cesaro, but he can put on a decent match. I don't see much improvement, but I also don't think he needed to improve his wrestling skills. The four biggest stars of all time (Rock, Hogan, Cena, Austin) weren't known for their wrestling skills.

 

[makeitvab]

Take the match with Harper on Raw. For much of the match, Harper focused on on Reign's left arm. Why the left and not the right when Reigns punches with his right is odd but irrelevant.

Wrestling promotions in America tend to work the left arm, over in Mexico they work the right.

It makes it easier for each wrestler to focus on the match and remember what they're doing/selling.

Read it in Jericho's book.

As for Reigns work, can't say as I haven't been keeping up w Raw. His match against Bray at Battleground was very good and entertaining.

 

[laodaron]

He's not as good as John Cena, Kevin Owens, or Cesaro, but he can put on a decent match. I don't see much improvement, but I also don't think he needed to improve his wrestling skills. The four biggest stars of all time (Rock, Hogan, Cena, Austin) weren't known for their wrestling skills.

Except that Cena and Austin were/are specifically known for their in ring work.

 

[Slyfox696]

Wrestling promotions in America tend to work the left arm, over in Mexico they work the right.

It makes it easier for each wrestler to focus on the match and remember what they're doing/selling.

Read it in Jericho's book.

As for Reigns work, can't say as I haven't been keeping up w Raw. His match against Bray at Battleground was very good and entertaining.

I can't speak for Mexico, but the reason you work the left arm in America isn't so people can remember which arm to sell. The reason you work the left arm is because most wrestlers are right handed, and so when you make your comeback, you can use your strong arm for everything and it's believable.

 

[Stan Hansen]

Except that Cena and Austin were/are specifically known for their in ring work.

I don't think in ring work and wrestling skills are the same thing. Austin, Cena, Hogan and Rock are not known for using an immense amount of wrestling moves in their matches.

 

[laodaron]

Both Austin and Cena are known for exactly that. Before Owen accidentally broke Austin's neck, that's ALL he was known for. Cena has always been considered by the industry as being innovative and being a very great in ring worker.

 

[The Holy One]

Roman Reigns has legitimately been one of the best parts of each show he's been on since winning the Royal Rumble. Whether it's through his continue improvement on mic skills and overall presentation of his character or him being in one of if not the best match of night each show. From Bryan to Lesnar to Show to Wyatt, the guy has more than held his own to the point where I more than welcome a WHC reign from him.