Is it better for rising stars to have a slowburn or fast push?

[MartialHorror]

To clarify, is it better to push someone by having them squash the lower/midcard guys (like Bo Dallas) before moving them to main event status once they have proven themselves? Or is it better to push someone by having them immediately interact with the main eventers (like Roman Reigns).

Personally, I'm not sure myself. Part of my problem with the slow burn push is that it becomes predictable and runs out of steam, especially if the company is short on jobbers. I got sick of Rusev for awhile because I was tired of him squashing Zack Ryder for the thousandth...because apparently third means thousandth...time. It's gotten so bad that both Bo and Rusev have started squashing other heels, which at least is kind of interesting.

The bonus to this is WWE is able to gouge how effective the talent in question is before taking a huge risk, while not bloating up the main event seen. The bad news is...as I said, it becomes predictable and pointless after awhile.

Roman Reigns technically isn't the best example for the fast push as he at least had quite a bit of experience as a tag team performer, but he barely had a handful of singles matches under his belt before contending for the championship. But I also don't know what else they could've done with him at the time. I hear Alberto del Rio was forced down the audiences throats, but I wasn't watching wrestling when he was introduced. The good news is that it's easier to get over when you're established as a credible challenge to the big dogs of the company. The bad is that said company is taking a huge risk that might backfire. Another issue is that creative team has to decide whether to put them over established stars- who might not like that. The Big Show was introduced by fighting with Stone Cold, Mankind, etc but they couldn't let him win that quickly so they resorted to DQ's. Almost immediately, WWE ran out of ideas for him and the push quickly burned itself out.

Oddly, that didn't happen to him in WcW, when his first match was winning the gold from Hogan. His career only began to fizzle when he joined the nWO because he was more-or-less playing the henchman for guys like Hogan and Nash.

So which model do you think is more successful? The slow burn push or the strong push? For me, I think WWE needs to start finding middle ground. They need to give the jobbers like Heath Slater, Fandango, Ryder or Sandow more victories so when rising talent defeats them, it means something.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Like most things in life, it depends upon the circumstances. In this case, it depends upon who the wrestler is, what he brings to the table in terms of his/herabilities and, most importantly, how over said wrestler is with the audience.

Probably the best example of an almost ideal fast push was none other than Brock Lesnar. Lesnar was essentially Vince McMahon's ultimate wet dream and he did everything he possibly could to get Lesnar to sign with WWE. Within 3 months of his TV debut, Lesnar was WWE Champion. Over the course of the next 18 months or so, Lesnar would win the title 2 more times and scored wins over the biggest stars in the company including The Rock, The Hardy Boys, Big Show, Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, Edge and The Undertaker. With Heyman ultimately at his side as his mouthpiece, Lesnar deserved the push as he certainly had the goods inside the ring. Fans were into him and wanted to see what this freaky powerhouse would do next.

However, Brock Lesnar loved the money and loved the fame, but he wasn't all that wild about the intense schedule of WWE. He found out that it wasn't quite the easy money he may have thought it was going to be. Lesnar discovered that it took physical and mental toughness and a genuine love of wrestling in order to do it. Brock Lesnar didn't love pro wrestling, hence he couldn't do it because he certainly wasn't willing to go out on the indie scene and wrestle for, comparatively speaking, peanuts. Lesnar had a very memorable 21 or 22 month run in WWE that's still talked about today but, ultimately, Lesnar's someone who just wanted to get rich which led to wrestling fans and wrestlers alike resenting the guy.

Since then, I've never seen anyone come through WWE who was pushed so hard and so fast as Lesnar was. Vince got burned with Brock Lesnar and, who knows, may have considered it a learning experience. From then on, if someone wanted to be the bottom line top star in his company making top dollar, then that desire, commitment, the loyalty to work until his ass dropped off, pick his ass up, gorilla glue it back on and work some more.

You take a lot of risks with a fast push, the most obvious of which is that you're putting somebody in a spot that they either might not be ready for or really shouldn't be there because they don't have what it takes. Either way, WWE gets criticized since some fans will say Wrestler A is ready to be champion when his push is barely started while others would criticize WWE because they felt Wrestler A wasn't ready. Some already feel Roman Reigns, for instance, should've gotten the strap at Battleground. Personally, I disagree as I simply don't think Reigns is ready. He's done a good job on his own thus far, but he hasn't wowed me. If they'd had a crystal ball that could accurately tell the future, maybe they wouldn't have gone the route of the slow burn with Daniel Bryan and he'd have won the title much earlier. However, they couldn't predict the future, nobody knew that Bryan's neck would start giving him problems, but you certainly couldn't complain about the results of said slow burn as it resulted in a great matches and a classic WrestleMania moment.

 

[ianrapleyuk]

It is a case of slow burn or fast push people are never going to be happy either way.

if they get a fast push people will moan and complain that they are pushing these people down their throats

if they get a slow burn people are going to complain that they are not getting pushed when they want

 

[Slyfox696]

I'm not sure how much it matters, honestly. No matter whether one is pushed quickly or slowly, the absolute best way to get a wrestler over is simply time. The longer a wrestler is on TV, the longer the fans have a chance to get to know him and learn about him, the more likely it is the wrestler will be over. Please note I said "over" and not "hot", as there is a MAJOR difference between having heat (in other words, making the fans react) and being over (making the fans care enough to pay money to watch, no matter what).

I think the safer bet is the slow push. A quick push will sometimes turn off fans and once a fan is turned off, they might not come back around. A slow push takes longer to payoff, but I feel it's less risky.

 

[Mudlup50]

I personally think it works both ways. Here's how I view it, Bo is doing great right now! I love his persona and the fact he isn't fighting anyone important just helps me enjoy it more when he's a dick but at the same time a "quick", I'd prefer the term heavy, push works wonders sometimes. If a new wrestler comes in and smashes a Cena, Orton or other main event star I have to believe they deserve the spot. But as someone mentioned above me, you can't make the internet happy at all :S both ways people get mad, I just think it matters the circumstance and if it's been done too much recently. Back in like 2010 it felt like WWE was done with Cena being the only star and bam Sheamus, bam Del Rio I think the problem was that with both shooting up and staying it hurt the credibility of both of them...maybe it's just me

 

[TheICChampion]

They need to give the jobbers like Heath Slater, Fandango, Ryder or Sandow more victories so when rising talent defeats them, it means something.

Riiiight. Not disagreeing with you per se, I just don't see how exactly you could pull it off. I mean, who could they believably go up against and defeat? I'm getting off track.


Personally I think it depends on the superstar. But then again, you can't please everyone, or sometimes even a slight majority. I feel they shouldn't wait much longer to pull the trigger on Roman Reigns, but I'm fine if they wait on guys like Bray Wyatt or his brother Bo Dallas. Bryan getting a slow burn was fine for me too. I think we've all given up on the Wyatts winning the tag team gold from the Uso brothers because they waited too long. If they do it now, how good does it make either team look? That's the really tricky part, because pretty much every fan is fickle and if you don't do it at just the right moment (and even then it's tough) then they'll get bored or they'll say it shouldn't have happened so fast, aka "shoving it down their throats".

 

[Redemption-2012]

Slow burn unless they are something very special. A prime example would be Brock Lesnar. Brock Lesnar had all the tools to be a main eventer instantly and the WWE put a rocket ship up his ass and it worked. Unfortunately you have other examples such as Ryback, Axel and more...need I say more?

 

[THTRobtaylor]

Like most things in life, it depends upon the circumstances. In this case, it depends upon who the wrestler is, what he brings to the table in terms of his/herabilities and, most importantly, how over said wrestler is with the audience.

Probably the best example of an almost ideal fast push was none other than Brock Lesnar. Lesnar was essentially Vince McMahon's ultimate wet dream and he did everything he possibly could to get Lesnar to sign with WWE. Within 3 months of his TV debut, Lesnar was WWE Champion. Over the course of the next 18 months or so, Lesnar would win the title 2 more times and scored wins over the biggest stars in the company including The Rock, The Hardy Boys, Big Show, Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, Edge and The Undertaker. With Heyman ultimately at his side as his mouthpiece, Lesnar deserved the push as he certainly had the goods inside the ring. Fans were into him and wanted to see what this freaky powerhouse would do next.

However, Brock Lesnar loved the money and loved the fame, but he wasn't all that wild about the intense schedule of WWE. He found out that it wasn't quite the easy money he may have thought it was going to be. Lesnar discovered that it took physical and mental toughness and a genuine love of wrestling in order to do it. Brock Lesnar didn't love pro wrestling, hence he couldn't do it because he certainly wasn't willing to go out on the indie scene and wrestle for, comparatively speaking, peanuts. Lesnar had a very memorable 21 or 22 month run in WWE that's still talked about today but, ultimately, Lesnar's someone who just wanted to get rich which led to wrestling fans and wrestlers alike resenting the guy.

Since then, I've never seen anyone come through WWE who was pushed so hard and so fast as Lesnar was. Vince got burned with Brock Lesnar and, who knows, may have considered it a learning experience. From then on, if someone wanted to be the bottom line top star in his company making top dollar, then that desire, commitment, the loyalty to work until his ass dropped off, pick his ass up, gorilla glue it back on and work some more.

You take a lot of risks with a fast push, the most obvious of which is that you're putting somebody in a spot that they either might not be ready for or really shouldn't be there because they don't have what it takes. Either way, WWE gets criticized since some fans will say Wrestler A is ready to be champion when his push is barely started while others would criticize WWE because they felt Wrestler A wasn't ready. Some already feel Roman Reigns, for instance, should've gotten the strap at Battleground. Personally, I disagree as I simply don't think Reigns is ready. He's done a good job on his own thus far, but he hasn't wowed me. If they'd had a crystal ball that could accurately tell the future, maybe they wouldn't have gone the route of the slow burn with Daniel Bryan and he'd have won the title much earlier. However, they couldn't predict the future, nobody knew that Bryan's neck would start giving him problems, but you certainly couldn't complain about the results of said slow burn as it resulted in a great matches and a classic WrestleMania moment.

They did these far earlier... Ric Flair debuted at Survivor Series in the ring and won the title at The Rumble but in terms of a young star Yokozuna was the first one, he debuted in November, won Rumble in January and had the belt in March, and back again in June for the rest of the year.

With the time compression of less PPV's at the time it's on a par or arguably more impressive than Brock's as in his first 4 PPV's Yoko won the title twice AND the Rumble and then they sustained it, having him beat Lex, take out Taker and only eventually lose at Mania X before giving back some of the wins.

Would Yoko have benefited from slow burning? Perhaps, there are some glaring errors in his push that weren't in Brock's like the Randy Savage "botch pin" which looked dumb in the Rumble or the Hogan loss. Yoko didn't face many mid carders, indeed he only faced Virgil at Survivor Series 92, from then he was going against main eventers and upper mid challengers almost exclusively... he only really had that one "squash" cos then he was booked to steamroller top down. In Brock's case they did it assbackwards in some ways, once he got the belt they started feuding him with lower card talent like Holly and Cena (remember when you could say Cena was mid card? I know it seems like the same time Al Hayes would have interviewed) and that's why Brock ultimately failed. Yoko was never intended as a long term solution and neither was Flair so how you book them depends on what you want out of them.

The best "long term" solutions get the longer build and arguably follow the "conveyor" however dated and restricting the concept is... every major star from Warrior to Punk went through it. Debut strong with wins over established stars of ANY level depending on if you're a monster or not, then bigger feuds, a mid card title and then the World title within 2 years of losing that first midcard title. They book to make that happen rather than on an individual basis.

Shawn's push was very similar to Bret's, which was very similar to Punk's and Edge's. Occasionally a tag team is thrown in there like with Miz.

If guys are monsters then it's easier to book them with the squash route but it's no guarantee. They tried it with Ahmed Johnson and it didn't work and by then it was too late to go back.

Guys like Dallas don't have a lot of success, regardless of size. WWE doesn't have a great track record with using guys once their "streak" is over. Look at Tatanka, had all the talent in the world but Shawn successfully held him down, once that 2 year streak was over... he had nowhere to go and Vince had no more ideas other than "heel turn". 2 years of careful booking basically wasted cos they didn't turn Lex as well...

There are no guarantees either way, Kevin Nash was quite carefully booked to become the Champion... but he bombed because they made a fatal error in giving him the belt quickly after his face turn, when people had no time to get used to him as a face, much less THE face... had be beaten Owen not Backlund on a PPV, even still in 8 seconds then it would have worked... To fans at the time it seemed hotshotted, but in reality they had been placing Diesel in that position for the 9 months prior.

Hotshotting a push can work in some cases, but it's very talent specific. Austin and Punk dropped their respective bombs and it had to move from there. For all the bad stuff that Rocky Maivia went through the initial instinct to hotshot him was right... it just took them in a different directing than planned.

How to these lessons translate to today's guys?

Well Reigns is in Nash's position 20 years ago... it's not IF but WHEN they pull the trigger on him... Rollins is where Shawn was, Ambrose where Scott Hall was and Bray where Taker was... only this time there is a much larger pool of talent beneath them who can claim the spots if they screw it up or it "doesn't work". In 94 that wasn't there... Nash wasn't gonna worry about Mabel for example, but Reigns HAS to worry about Barrett, Cesaro and the other 3 mentioned as ALL can take this spot if he botches one small thing in the push or WWE get one thing wrong.

 

[Mustang Sally]

Roman Reigns technically isn't the best example for the fast push as he at least had quite a bit of experience as a tag team performer, but he barely had a handful of singles matches under his belt before contending for the championship.

That's true, and perhaps represents the most advantageous way for a performer to be pushed. If he starts out as a member of a group and achieves success, the most desirable thing for a performer is to have fans saying: "Wow, he's great in the Shield. Wonder how he'd do if he went out on his own?"

It seems this would be a great career path to follow, as the guy is shielded (no pun intended) until he's ready to strike out as a solo. Obviously, WWE decided to launch all three guys on singles careers, but if one wasn't considered up to it, he could become part of another group.

It's up to WWE management to decide whom to push, and how hard. Jack Swagger is an example of one of their largest misjudgments. They pushed the living hell out of him from the moment he arrived, giving him a world championship way too quickly and completely shoving him down our throats. Jack is a great example for the argument of giving a performer a slow push to find out if he'll catch on, rather than shooting for the stars and tossing the guy face-first into the mix.

On the other edge of the coin is Cesaro. Who can figure what they're doing with this poor guy? They started him as a single with a moderate push, seemed to decide he'd be better in a team (rather than starting him in one), getting him ready to break out as a single.....then changing their minds, breaking him out of the team by warring with his partner (Swagger) and apparently deciding he's gonna be a good guy......then reversing that and leaving him a heel, putting him in against top guys and having him acquit himself well......and then cancelling all that and having him lose cleanly to mid-carders.

Yeah, a slow burn is probably a better course to follow, yet they have to be careful with that, too. Maybe it's preferable to formulate a plan for a guy and stick with it awhile, rather than trying to measure his effectiveness and impact week by week and altering his plan on the fly.

Still, fast pushes should be used.....well, almost never.

 

[Cub McCallister]

It's better to have a slow urn rather than be pushed fast as soon as you come through the door because look at Sin Cara he was pushed to the moon and he flopped big time IMO, he could of been a big thing but he was released although he didn't help himself. Guys like the shield and the wyatt family all benefited from their time down nxt and they are a big ht with the fans, depending on who the athlete is and how good he looks then it'll be different like lesner who was pushed to the moon.

Kenta, Devitt and Steen as good as they all are will benefit from spending possibly six months or so down development to train the wwe way as I've heard it called and because they are that good they will be on the main roster within those six months.

Everyone is different at the end of the day but it won't get to go slow otherwise you won't get over with the fans.

 

[MartialHorror]

Poor Sin Cara. He seems like a good in-ring performer, but it's hard to tell when all he is allowed to do is get his ass kicked.

 

[J.J.]

Ultimately it does depend. I've always liked the slow build up to becoming a bigger star. But I guess it depends on the worker's background in other companies and how well they click with the fans.

Edge is a classic example of a guy slowly built up to becoming a major star. Albeit injuries it was roughly 8 years from his debut in WWE to when he won his first WWE Championship.

I remember seeing him on Shotgun Saturday night in the late 90s lurking in the crowd and never imagined he would be a multiple time world champion 10 years later.

But his buildup enabled him to be apart of the first ever TLC match, part of a successful tag team with Christian, he was a multiple time Intercontinental Champion, King of the Ring winner, first ever Money in the Bank winner to go along with his 10+ championship reigns.

While that would seem like eternity today if a star went that long before holding the prize world title, Edge is arguably the most successful WWE competitor in the last 15 years.

I don't see guys built up from the bottom like that again as it's definitely more of a revolving door now than before. You either click or get lost in the shuffle it seems.

But it just made Edge reign more meaningful when after everything he accomplished he finally made it to that main event level defeating Cena.

 

[blueskyy]

Poor Sin Cara. He seems like a good in-ring performer, but it's hard to tell when all he is allowed to do is get his ass kicked.

WWE is weird. When he came to WWE, and actually sucked, WWE decided to continue pushing him despite his poor performance (so did the IWC initially before eventaully ditching him). But when he's actually good, WWE decided to drop him and forget all about him (so did the IWC). Had I not been a regular lurker on this forum, I still wouldn't have known that the reason Sin Cara improved is because they change the person under the mask. I don't know why WWE is not using Sin Cara, my guess is they are paying this Sin Cara a lot less, so they see no real need to use him.

 

[Darkshadow1234]

Slow burn is the best option IMO
Never was a fan of pushing to the moon
Or fast push.

Build them up slow
Then see where they go from here.

Nowadays wrestlers are pushed way too fast before they ready
Example Brock lesnar, reigns, sheamus and del rio

Pushing someone slowly is a lost art today

 

[JJ15776]

Clearly, there is no right answer here. It completely depends how talented the person is, their look, how ready they are, how mature they are, how the writers feel about their potential, and what else is going on in the company at the time. Among other things.

Sometimes slow burns work and sometimes they don't. Sometimes fast pushes work and sometimes they don't. There are risks and rewards of both.

Personally, I'm a big fan of the old school method of using guys in tag teams first...which, I guess, is a different form of the slow burn talked about here. WWE rarely uses tag teams anymore, and I understand it considering audiences don't care about them now, but it used to be a very effective way of seeing whether a guy could cut it or not.

Ultimately, at the end of the day, a guy should be pushed when he's ready to be pushed. Whether that's the day they enter the company(like Brock Lesnar) or it takes them years to get to that point(like Bret Hart), that's the only true answer. And it's the booker's job to determine that. That's why I always laugh at people who think booking is so easy, like you just throw people together in a storyline and people are entertained, or bookers somehow magically control whether or not a guy gets over. That's just not how it works.

 

[Notorious718]

I think it will usually depend on circumstance. Personally, I feel like the ideal road is to get over through time. Like maybe three years. However, depending on the circumstances, I can also be an advocate for striking when the iron is hot. If Roman Reigns were to have won the title at Battleground or at Summerslam had he been in the title match, I wouldn't have been so upset because of how red hot he is right now. Now I get that many people would argue that his time would be better served at a Wrestlemania 31 but you gotta ask yourself if he'll still have that momentum that long from now. Guys like Brock Lesnar and Sheamus are examples of guys that had rockets strapped to them and blasted off to the moon not long after their respective debuts and now they're both major stars (yeah sure, Sheamus may not be everyone's cup of tea but if he were in the main event, it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility). So there are times when I think it's okay to do that.

It all comes down to perception in the end. Slow build is usually the safe, sure way to go though with some exceptions.

 

[RicSpade]

The WWE has been burned on both avenues if you think about it, They mega pushed Brock and he took his ball and left the first time, They boosted sheamus to win the WWE title, but many forgot his first loss was to goldust and now he's a midcarder trying to make the US title important again, they tried to elevate Fandango by having him beat Jericho but where is he now? Sometimes the slowburn works the problem is the WWE waits too long on someones potential, Booker got the title when he wasn't hot anymore, if Rhodes got the title no one would care because his best moments were the beginning of this year,if its not broke WWE just needs to run with it, Triple H is trying to show Vince we will give the fans what they want to see not what Vince wants the fans to see, but were going to always have this hit or miss