Is Brock Lesnar as Dominant As We Think

[Mudlup50]

People keep saying that Lesnar is the dominant guy, he's a monster he's done this and this and this. Which I truly get, not going to knock him for his MMA and UFC accomplishments because that takes a real fighter.

But I don't think he's being booked as dominant as we think. Let's take a look at what he's done since he's come back.

2012:
Extreme Rules, lost to Cena but I mean who hasn't?
SummerSlam, beat a pretty much retired Trips after "breaking" his arm.
2013:
Wrestlemania, lost to Trips, simply to tie up the feud at 1-1
Extreme Rules, beat HHH so he won a feud against a semi-retired Triple H
SummerSlam, beat CM Punk but it was to continue the Punk/Heyman feud
2014:
Royal Rumble, beat Big Show quickly but also beat him down before the match
Wrestlemania, beat Undertaker decisively but UT was injured in the match and also took 25 minutes to do
SummerSlam, beat Cena but hit him with an F5 pretty much instantly

That's what we know. Not taking away from these moments but each of them had a reason why Lesnar won, especially this year. He injured his opponent early on and just got handed the match. Which I get is what they want Lesnar to do but I'm just saying if he doesn't do that he doesn't win...now let's "speculate."

Night Of Champions Lesnar has a more balanced match with Cena but still wins
Next Defense(Maybe Survivor Series or HiaC) he beats the Big Show...again
And we have one or a few more defenses after that.
We have agreed there's like no legitimate opponents for Lesnar but he isn't being booked that dominantly. A lot of people don't think Reigns is ready yet all he has to do is
1. Get in the ring without getting beat up
2. Not be an injury prone past his prime wrestler and
3. Avoid an early F5.

Storyline wise look at the facts. Reigns is 29 so he won't be past his prime and hopefully not injury prone. He comes in through the audience so unless Lesnar is going to attack him in the crowd he won't get hit unprepared. By then Lesnar will be insanely cocky and will most likely underestimate what Reigns can do. And if Reigns reverses an early F5 he's in the clear.

I just don't see his current WWE booking as this super dominant guy. Not saying he's gonna lose to Reigns but unless he gets fed a legitimate opponent and beats them without hitting his finisher early, he just won't look as dominant.

TL; DR. Lesnar is more vulnerable than we think, Reigns has everything in his favor come Wrestlemania

 

[chuckmdubya]

It has been a very log time since WWE had a heel that people believed was a monster.
Brock is huge and won big in mma, this makes the unstoppable billing seem legit.
WWE hasn't had this, probably since the debut of Kane, they are going to milk it for everything they can get.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

I think you are reaching. We can't just assume Lesnar has to get in an early F5 or an early display of strong offense to win. It helps, but is not necessary.

Otherwise, Lesnar's dominance is firmly established by his last two events. Not so much beating the UT but ending the streak and then manhandling Cena. That's pretty much the definition of dominant in WWE over the last 10 years. No one man has gotten that treatment from Cena. Heck, no man has gotten that treatment in a main event that I can remember.

But that is where I think you are right. Brock's dominance over Cena probably is more of Cena's story than Brock's story. Almost everything done over the past 10 years with Cena has been more about him than his opponent. Brock's dominance over Cena feels more like a set up for something bigger with Cena. Brock and his dominance is just a smoke screen to get us there.

Plus WWE can always just play Brock's stomach as his Achilles's Heel. Shitty way for a face to take down Lesnar but it is a simple logical story that wrestling fans can follow.

 

[CyberPunk]

I think you are reaching. We can't just assume Lesnar has to get in an early F5 or an early display of strong offense to win. It helps, but is not necessary.

Otherwise, Lesnar's dominance is firmly established by his last two events. Not so much beating the UT but ending the streak and then manhandling Cena. That's pretty much the definition of dominant in WWE over the last 10 years. No one man has gotten that treatment from Cena. Heck, no man has gotten that treatment in a main event that I can remember.

But that is where I think you are right. Brock's dominance over Cena probably is more of Cena's story than Brock's story. Almost everything done over the past 10 years with Cena has been more about him than his opponent. Brock's dominance over Cena feels more like a set up for something bigger with Cena. Brock and his dominance is just a smoke screen to get us there.

Plus WWE can always just play Brock's stomach as his Achilles's Heel. Shitty way for a face to take down Lesnar but it is a simple logical story that wrestling fans can follow.

Exactly my thoughts. I think somewhere this is all a setup to evolve Cena. Of course, you can't take away what Brock has accomplished in last one year. Beating Undertaker at Mania and decimating Cena is something no one else has done before. As far as I remember though, Cena has never been beaten by same opponent back to back (except Punk may be but they weren't completely clean victories). This could be the first time Cena gets beaten clean twice in a row. If they play it right, think about the possibility.

Plus, it's been a long time since a heel has looked this dominant. For sure they want to utilize it. No one in this world is unbeatable, but they can sure look like one till someone takes him down. Apart from Cena's evolution, I also think that this could be the setup to push someone else to the moon. As of now, it may seem Roman Reigns, but in wrestling, nothing is concrete, right?

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I gotta agree with GSB. It seems like you're reaching here. Over the course of 2014, Brock Lesnar has been booked to look more dominant than any single wrestler in pro wrestling has looked for a very, very long time. He decimated Big Show at the Royal Rumble, he "broke" Mark Henry's arm after decisively "beating" him in a couple of brawls at ringside, he ended the streak and he handed John Cena the single most decisive loss of his entire career.

Lesnar's last two matches have firmly established his dominance in a way that nobody in wrestling can come close to touching. In the case of The Undertaker, this was really the first time I saw Taker as looking old. His performances at WrestleMania up until this year have been stellar, at least when it comes to his health and fitness level even if he had a subpar performance. What hurt the match, in the eyes of a lot of fans, is that nobody believed that Lesnar would beat Taker. NOBODY saw the streak ending, particularly not by Lesnar and seeing it happen will go down as one of the single most stunning ends to a wrestling match in history. The Undertaker was decisively beaten at HIS show. Not only that, he was humbled. Is he past his prime now? Of course he is, but the man's legacy and the memories attached to them are very, very, very relevant and fresh in people's minds. The streak ending and being ended clean ranks right up there with Hulk Hogan's heel turn at Bash at the Beach on July 7, 1996 and Bruno Sammartino unexpectedly losing the WWWF Championship to Ivan Koloff on January 18, 1971. It's one of those "I saw it happen, but never remotely expected it" moments that don't come along very often.

As far as Lesnar's match with John Cena, again, we saw John Cena humbled. When has John Cena ever been "humbled" by anyone in the past 9 years? John Cena is the undisputed "face" of WWE and has been since the mid 2000s. John Cena, in terms of his character and his level of dominance, is the Hulk Hogan of the 21st century. He barely got in any offense against Lesnar during the match and, as a result, it almost looked as though Lesnar could have ended the match at will. In fact, that's been part of the story that WWE was going for. While I'm not all that wild about "Super Cena" tearing through The Wyatt Family like crap through a goose, the end result MIGHT be worth it if we ultimately see John Cena evolving into something more than just...well...Superman for all intents and purposes.

Whether you enjoyed both matches or not, whether you agreed with how they ended or not, the matches themselves will endure as a couple of "I was there" moments. NOBODY expected the streak to end and whereas I think most people were 50/50 on whether Cena or Lesnar would win, NOBODY suspected that the match would result in such a lopsided victory.

If Lesnar had been booked the way he's been booked this year since his return to the company, I think people'd be sick of him. Lesnar already has the various "part timer" haters raging against him as it is, and spending the entire time looking as dominant as he has for the past 8 months would only increase that rage and more people would probably jump on the bandwagon. I'm guessing, and that's all it is, that Lesnar's last appearance with the company will be at WrestleMania XXXI and we'll ultimately see someone slay the beast. We'll see someone that will the one who beat the one who ended the streak. Whether or not it generates the sort of moment WWE is hoping for may well depend on who that someone ends up being.

 

[Pedigree1]

Over the course of this year alone no one and I mean no one has ever looked as dominant as Lesnar has.. Lesnar by his very nature is a heel.. A huge scary monster who just destroys everything in his path.. He just brutalized the big show at the RR..

Then the unthinkable happened. JH is absolutely correct in saying that Brock not just beating UT but absolutely dominating him at WM.. It ranks up there with Bruno losing to Ivan Koloff! When was the last time a match made people cry?? Then he marches on to summerslam,and just eviscerated cena.. No champion ever in the history of the company has ever been dominated the way Cena was...

Has he been dominant as we all think he has? Damn right he has.. Even more so. He is the epitome of a heel you believe he could kill anyone he is in the ring with.. Has Lesnar lost a step? Perhaps,but he is a machine..

John Cena got humbled at Summerslam.. The Promo tonight this one probably belongs in a different forum,but Heyman is right.. Cena has to become the monster in order to conquer the monster.. Lesnar doesn't care he cares about Money! If he sticks around for a short time,people will hate on him,sticks around too long people hate on him.. I think the way the WWE is booking Brock is smart.

Not enough to overkill but just enough to pop in here and there.. I will go as far as to say as long as he pops in at the Major PPVs i dont mind him heading into WM as champion

 

[L@RISANO]

People keep saying that Lesnar is the dominant guy, he's a monster he's done this and this and this. Which I truly get, not going to knock him for his MMA and UFC accomplishments because that takes a real fighter.

But I don't think he's being booked as dominant as we think. Let's take a look at what he's done since he's come back.

2012:
Extreme Rules, lost to Cena but I mean who hasn't?
SummerSlam, beat a pretty much retired Trips after "breaking" his arm.
2013:
Wrestlemania, lost to Trips, simply to tie up the feud at 1-1
Extreme Rules, beat HHH so he won a feud against a semi-retired Triple H
SummerSlam, beat CM Punk but it was to continue the Punk/Heyman feud
2014:
Royal Rumble, beat Big Show quickly but also beat him down before the match
Wrestlemania, beat Undertaker decisively but UT was injured in the match and also took 25 minutes to do
SummerSlam, beat Cena but hit him with an F5 pretty much instantly

That's what we know. Not taking away from these moments but each of them had a reason why Lesnar won, especially this year. He injured his opponent early on and just got handed the match. Which I get is what they want Lesnar to do but I'm just saying if he doesn't do that he doesn't win...now let's "speculate."

Night Of Champions Lesnar has a more balanced match with Cena but still wins
Next Defense(Maybe Survivor Series or HiaC) he beats the Big Show...again
And we have one or a few more defenses after that.
We have agreed there's like no legitimate opponents for Lesnar but he isn't being booked that dominantly. A lot of people don't think Reigns is ready yet all he has to do is
1. Get in the ring without getting beat up
2. Not be an injury prone past his prime wrestler and
3. Avoid an early F5.

Storyline wise look at the facts. Reigns is 29 so he won't be past his prime and hopefully not injury prone. He comes in through the audience so unless Lesnar is going to attack him in the crowd he won't get hit unprepared. By then Lesnar will be insanely cocky and will most likely underestimate what Reigns can do. And if Reigns reverses an early F5 he's in the clear.

I just don't see his current WWE booking as this super dominant guy. Not saying he's gonna lose to Reigns but unless he gets fed a legitimate opponent and beats them without hitting his finisher early, he just won't look as dominant.

TL; DR. Lesnar is more vulnerable than we think, Reigns has everything in his favor come Wrestlemania

I'd say that to the WWE and the majority of 'casual' fans, the Brock Lesnar booking for 2014, where he has destroyed Mark Henry, the Big Show, the Undertaker and John Cena is what matters.


Everything before that, has virtually been erased as the 2014 Booking could be called "the Conquerer". Make no mistake about it, he has been more dominantly than anyone since Kane over a decade ago, arguably even more dominant, as he is not only winning matches, but absolutely decimating all comers to the point that it only leaves a handful of viable challengers going forward.


That said; I have mentioned it before, and Jack-Hammer also mentioned it above;
Brock Lesnar's contract ends officially(bar a re-sign) at WM31. Thus, the real benefactor of defeating the Undefeated Streak will be "the ONE who Beat the ONE in 21-1".

Put simply, the booking of Lesnar is all for whoever beats him eventually. Whenever Brock is beaten, I expect him to leave and move on, whilst the WWE hopefully will have new Star going forward......or they could just let John Cena win at NoC.

 

[Mudlup50]

I think my point is being missed here. Big Show was assaulted before the match and lets face it, Big Show isn't a huge threat in this day and age. And it took an assault to beat him, that was to protect Big Show after that loss.

Taker got injured during the match, he's 49! If you forget about the streak and straight up view the match as what it is...it's a 36 year old beating a 49 year old. How is that impressive? Not to mention it still took Lesnar 25 minutes to actually beat him, which again is to protect the Undertaker in this situation

Then he beats Cena but he hit an F5 early. Then he suplexed him 16 times. That's not dominant that's lucky. That's realistic, if you get hit by anyones finisher within 3 minutes of a match you shouldn't be able to fight...I mean really. That's the point of a finisher, to finish the match. If it's used at the start, your opponent should be a rag doll, especially if that move plants you on your head.

You can argue each of his last 3 opponents had a bad night. The WWE was booking to protect all of his opponents except Cena. And even Cena is getting built back up. A dominant superstar, doesn't take 25 minutes to pin an opponent whos injured. That's what I'm saying. Lesnar isn't being booked as well as everyone thinks. Think about it...

Royal Rumble, Big Show doesn't get attacked before the match, Lesnar wins...thus looking more dominant.

WrestleMania, Taker gets pinned in under 10 minutes.

SummerSlam, Lesnar doesn't F5 Cena immediately.

He'd look so much more dominant then! Everyone seems to think I'm being stupid but really, the WWE is trying to make everyone else look good when losing to Lesnar. You can make a legitimate case for anyone he's fought this year, winning if 1 thing in the match changed. That's not dominant.

 

[Jackhammer22]

When they brought Lesnar back they overrated him so much, then hyped him and hyped him to make him look better than ever but eventually he is just boosting the career of Reigns or Bryan

 

[MoRtAnDaD]

Hitting a finisher which requires the strenght like the F5, its a show of dominance.

As a matter of fact, every single match since his return, brock show superiority over his rival, even in the matches he lost.

And lets not mix reality with storyline, taker was injured for real about 5 min in the match, yet the storyline didnt say that until next monday.

 

[Franchize1990]

I think my point is being missed here. Big Show was assaulted before the match and lets face it, Big Show isn't a huge threat in this day and age. And it took an assault to beat him, that was to protect Big Show after that loss.

But let's not forget that Lesnar took a WMD "right on the button" as I believe the commentators put it and for the most part, got right back up and delivered an F5 for the win.

Taker got injured during the match, he's 49! If you forget about the streak and straight up view the match as what it is...it's a 36 year old beating a 49 year old. How is that impressive? Not to mention it still took Lesnar 25 minutes to actually beat him, which again is to protect the Undertaker in this situation

Problem is, this is professional wrestling and things like the streak are major factors as to how certain accomplishments and feats are perceived in the professional wrestling world. Now, like Mortandad said, we never knew about the injury until after the match so, you really can't say that's the reason that Lesnar beat Undertaker at WrestleMania, a feat that has never been done before. Doesn't matter how long it took Lesnar to do it since guys like CM Punk, Shawn Michaels, Triple H, Randy Orton, etc. couldn't do it at all. That puts Brock in an elite level in the WWE Universe.

Then he beats Cena but he hit an F5 early. Then he suplexed him 16 times. That's not dominant that's lucky. That's realistic, if you get hit by anyones finisher within 3 minutes of a match you shouldn't be able to fight...I mean really. That's the point of a finisher, to finish the match. If it's used at the start, your opponent should be a rag doll, especially if that move plants you on your head.

There's been matches, WrestleMania 25 immediately comes to my mind, where a finisher early doesn't necessarily mean the match is now the offense is 95% wrestler A like the beat down of Cena was. Further evidence that Lesnar was dominant in that match was we were ALL expecting Cena to make his comeback at some point in the match, and it never happened.

You can argue each of his last 3 opponents had a bad night. The WWE was booking to protect all of his opponents except Cena. And even Cena is getting built back up. A dominant superstar, doesn't take 25 minutes to pin an opponent whos injured. That's what I'm saying. Lesnar isn't being booked as well as everyone thinks. Think about it...

Royal Rumble, Big Show doesn't get attacked before the match, Lesnar wins...thus looking more dominant.

WrestleMania, Taker gets pinned in under 10 minutes.

SummerSlam, Lesnar doesn't F5 Cena immediately.

He'd look so much more dominant then! Everyone seems to think I'm being stupid but really, the WWE is trying to make everyone else look good when losing to Lesnar. You can make a legitimate case for anyone he's fought this year, winning if 1 thing in the match changed. That's not dominant.

I don't think anybody is saying that you're stupid but what I think they are trying to say, and if not them I am, is that it sounds like you are greatly undervaluing the accomplishments of Brock Lesnar in 2014, especially after ending the streak and making a 15 time World Champion and the face of the company look out of his league on the 2nd biggest show of the year.

 

[L@RISANO]

I'll say it again...

Brock Lesnar's dominant, almost invincible-type booking as a Monster Heel and dismantling the Best of the Best on the WWE Roster, will indeed mean that some years from now, Brock will be remembered as one of the greatest heels the business has ever seen.


However, the real upside of Brock's dominant booking will actually be seen(if done correctly and with the right guy) when the guy who finally "slays" the Beast Incarnate goes to a high level of stardom and overness with the WWE Universe.

Personally, I feel Brock's booking with regards to elevating someone has been hurt slightly by the fact that Daniel Bryan(who is universally loved) got injured before he was able to do the rumoured job for Lesnar at SummerSlam, which would have got Brock Lesnar Epic Level Heat and would have been the perfect follow-up opponent after the Undertaker(who is also universally loved and respected).
John Cena, whilst he does have many fans, still doesn't command the crowd in true babyface fashion(in terms of being all-out cheered), so much so, that him being beaten to a pulp has actually seen Brock being cheered which sort of diminishes the "Conqueror's Conqueror" and his inevitable achievement, unless whoever that Superstar is, is over with the WWE Universe come WM31.


After John Cena, WWE has to have Brock dismantle someone who is a true babyface being overly cheered by the WWE Universe(Like Daniel Bryan if he returns, Dean Ambrose/Roman Reigns even) leading into Wrestlemania, so that by the time the event comes around, the True Benefit of "Slaying" the Beast Incarnate will be realised.


Remember how much Hulk Hogan benefitted from defeating Andre the Giant? Well, I'd argue that the One who beats the One in 21-1 will benefit in a similar fashion if everything falls into place by the time Wrestlemania 31 comes around.

 

[Mudlup50]

But let's not forget that Lesnar took a WMD "right on the button" as I believe the commentators put it and for the most part, got right back up and delivered an F5 for the win.

Problem is, this is professional wrestling and things like the streak are major factors as to how certain accomplishments and feats are perceived in the professional wrestling world. Now, like Mortandad said, we never knew about the injury until after the match so, you really can't say that's the reason that Lesnar beat Undertaker at WrestleMania, a feat that has never been done before. Doesn't matter how long it took Lesnar to do it since guys like CM Punk, Shawn Michaels, Triple H, Randy Orton, etc. couldn't do it at all. That puts Brock in an elite level in the WWE Universe.

There's been matches, WrestleMania 25 immediately comes to my mind, where a finisher early doesn't necessarily mean the match is now the offense is 95% wrestler A like the beat down of Cena was. Further evidence that Lesnar was dominant in that match was we were ALL expecting Cena to make his comeback at some point in the match, and it never happened.

I don't think anybody is saying that you're stupid but what I think they are trying to say, and if not them I am, is that it sounds like you are greatly undervaluing the accomplishments of Brock Lesnar in 2014, especially after ending the streak and making a 15 time World Champion and the face of the company look out of his league on the 2nd biggest show of the year.

Okay for your point about the WMD, yea I missed that.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't appreciate that Lesnar ended the streak, I'm just saying that it wasn't booked to make him look perfect. You're in the ring with a guy who's injured and can't go anymore, the WWE plans for you to be world champ in 5 months and to hold it for 7 months after that...why does it take you 25 minutes? It's like they didn't want Taker to look weak, yet as an old school guy Taker wanted to go out giving a rub...so why lessen the rub by taking 25 minutes to slay him? I get that it's a huge accomplishment, the Undertaker is my favorite wrestler and the allure of the streak is part of why I liked him to start, so I get that. I'm just saying, a glorified squash match was the longest match on the card? A heel going over at Wrestlemania was the longest match on the card? Dare I say, the most surprising event in recent memory still took 25 minutes to actually happen. It's like the WWE wanted us all to believe for a second that Taker could come back, if they wanted us to think that, then they're holding some of the push.

You referenced a match at Wrestlemania 25? I don't know for certain what match you're referring to, I'm assuming the Undertaker v HBK?

I just think in terms of devastating looking finishers the F5 is probably the best today at the least. And Cena got hit with one almost immediately. It just takes away the allure to me, it seems like the WWE is protecting everyone else from looking too weak. You can make easy cases for what happened to everyone he's fought this year. Big Show got attacked beforehand(even if he hit his WMD back), Taker is old and injured and was doing the job on his way out, Cena got hit with an insane move within a minute and got dropped on his head 16 times after that.

If anything, I think the WWE made the achievements less during the matches. I know that part doesn't really matter in WWE, for some reason most people don't care how good a match is. And I'm not complaining because I am like that, give me the story to a match, the start to see who's in control and the last few minutes and I'm good. I'm just saying that in terms of what he accomplished, it looks like less when you ignore the shock factor.

No one thought Cena was going to get manhandled like that, but he got F5ed immediately. Even in todays era, a finisher is still the finisher most of the time..I mean on Raw last night Cesaro hit an equalizer on Sheamus and Sheamus was out for a good minute. Now imagine if during that he got suplexed 16 times.



And to the people explaining how this is working out, again I get it. Lesnar looks dominant till someone beats him at Mania suspiciously when his contract goes up. Lesnar has an amazing year and rides off into the sunset. Reigns or Bryan take the momentum and have a HoF level career off of that. I'm saying that in making Cena, Taker and Show look better in their losses, Lesnar looks less dominant and thus the guy who ultimately gets the rub, looks less impressive.

To end with a question, imagine if Lesnar would have beat Cena in 3 minutes, 2 F5s maybe 3 suplexes. That doesn't look more dominant to people? If Lesnar beat Undertaker in 5 minutes...you're all seriously telling me that would be as or less impressive than the 25 minute match we received?

 

[Teddy Irving]

Okay for your point about the WMD, yea I missed that.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't appreciate that Lesnar ended the streak, I'm just saying that it wasn't booked to make him look perfect. You're in the ring with a guy who's injured and can't go anymore, the WWE plans for you to be world champ in 5 months and to hold it for 7 months after that...why does it take you 25 minutes? It's like they didn't want Taker to look weak, yet as an old school guy Taker wanted to go out giving a rub...so why lessen the rub by taking 25 minutes to slay him? I get that it's a huge accomplishment, the Undertaker is my favorite wrestler and the allure of the streak is part of why I liked him to start, so I get that. I'm just saying, a glorified squash match was the longest match on the card? A heel going over at Wrestlemania was the longest match on the card? Dare I say, the most surprising event in recent memory still took 25 minutes to actually happen. It's like the WWE wanted us all to believe for a second that Taker could come back, if they wanted us to think that, then they're holding some of the push.

You're right Lesnar should have just come out F5'd Undertaker and won, I mean how dominant would that have looked right? The match took 25 minutes for the simple reason that Taker's streak at Mania was a big deal. He had long matches were opponents like Shawn Michaels (Mr. WM) couldn't put him away. Punk couldn't beat him even coming off a 434 day reign as WWE Champion, that made Punk look really weak right? Wrong, it made Taker look strong. The match went that length because they wanted people to believe Taker would come back. I was at WM30 and trust me when Lesnar won, dead silence absolute shock and awe. Taker isn't getting a push and isn't being protected they were giving the fans their monies worth in that match.

I just think in terms of devastating looking finishers the F5 is probably the best today at the least. And Cena got hit with one almost immediately. It just takes away the allure to me, it seems like the WWE is protecting everyone else from looking too weak. You can make easy cases for what happened to everyone he's fought this year. Big Show got attacked beforehand(even if he hit his WMD back), Taker is old and injured and was doing the job on his way out, Cena got hit with an insane move within a minute and got dropped on his head 16 times after that.

If anything, I think the WWE made the achievements less during the matches. I know that part doesn't really matter in WWE, for some reason most people don't care how good a match is. And I'm not complaining because I am like that, give me the story to a match, the start to see who's in control and the last few minutes and I'm good. I'm just saying that in terms of what he accomplished, it looks like less when you ignore the shock factor.

No one thought Cena was going to get manhandled like that, but he got F5ed immediately. Even in todays era, a finisher is still the finisher most of the time..I mean on Raw last night Cesaro hit an equalizer on Sheamus and Sheamus was out for a good minute. Now imagine if during that he got suplexed 16 times.

Think about it though, how many times do you see people's finisher get reversed when they go for it, even late in a match the opponent still has some in the tank to reverse. This was right off the bat and Cena didn't have the power and strength to reverse it. He hadn't taken a beating and Lesnar majorily overpowered him. How many people can do that to Cena? Cena is billed as a strong guy and never gets decimated. Lesnar overpowered him early and then toyed with him the rest of the match. Toyed with John Cena. Most people would take a win over Cena in any means. Lesnar was so confident that he was willing to toy with Cena to try and make him give up. He never once believed he would lose to Cena, as if Cena was nothing to him. To him Cena was the same as a jobber, Cena was the Brooklyn Brawler as far as Lesnar was concerned.

And to the people explaining how this is working out, again I get it. Lesnar looks dominant till someone beats him at Mania suspiciously when his contract goes up. Lesnar has an amazing year and rides off into the sunset. Reigns or Bryan take the momentum and have a HoF level career off of that. I'm saying that in making Cena, Taker and Show look better in their losses, Lesnar looks less dominant and thus the guy who ultimately gets the rub, looks less impressive.

To end with a question, imagine if Lesnar would have beat Cena in 3 minutes, 2 F5s maybe 3 suplexes. That doesn't look more dominant to people? If Lesnar beat Undertaker in 5 minutes...you're all seriously telling me that would be as or less impressive than the 25 minute match we received?

You are forgetting what audience WWE targets here, it's children do we like that? Not really but it's who their main target audience is. They don't know when Lesnars contract is up they just see a fan favourite beat the biggest bully they have ever seen. The toughest, most aggresive guy they will have seen. If Lesnar did that their would have been complaints that Taker's legacy was tarnished that it was a disgrace to do that to him, and that would be true. It would have looked more dominant but Lesnar ending the streak clean was dominant enough people had been trying for 21 years to beat this guy and they couldn't. Lesnar did.

The bit with Cena is that he could of beaten Cena any time he wanted but he wanted to hear Cena say he quit. He toyed with Cena. Nobody else would dare do that because Cena always comes back to win. Lesnar didn't fear that happening, he was having fun inflicting pain. He could have finished it any time he wanted as the commentators said several times, but he didn't this shows how dominant he believes he is and that he was right. The face of the WWE, former 15 time world champion, Superman himself John Cena was a play thing to Lesnar that is dominance

 

[Michael J. Fox]

A wins a win, no matter how it was achieved. I think Brock is a beast and some change, however it's disappointing he won't wrestle on RAW. Especially since he is WWEWHC, every Monday night should feature him. I agree that the absence of the title creates prestige for it, but so does said champion kicking ass weekly instead of bi-monthly.

 

[WBL]

Looking at win-loss records to see if Brock was dominant or not is the same kind of fallacy that would have you thing that John Cena had a horrible time of it during CM Punk's epic WWE title reign. Wins and losses just don't mean anything anymore. It's whoever the WWE wants to push, whoever they want people to believe they love.

Besides, it's not just about the wins and losses with Brock. Like any good wrestling storyline, it's about the buildup. The people he destroyed along the way, the promos, the whole leadup to the match itself.

 

[Franchize1990]

Okay for your point about the WMD, yea I missed that.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't appreciate that Lesnar ended the streak, I'm just saying that it wasn't booked to make him look perfect. You're in the ring with a guy who's injured and can't go anymore, the WWE plans for you to be world champ in 5 months and to hold it for 7 months after that...why does it take you 25 minutes? It's like they didn't want Taker to look weak, yet as an old school guy Taker wanted to go out giving a rub...so why lessen the rub by taking 25 minutes to slay him? I get that it's a huge accomplishment, the Undertaker is my favorite wrestler and the allure of the streak is part of why I liked him to start, so I get that. I'm just saying, a glorified squash match was the longest match on the card? A heel going over at Wrestlemania was the longest match on the card? Dare I say, the most surprising event in recent memory still took 25 minutes to actually happen. It's like the WWE wanted us all to believe for a second that Taker could come back, if they wanted us to think that, then they're holding some of the push.

But that's the mystique about the Undertaker at WrestleMania. No matter what his opponent did, The Undertaker walked out a winner. Storyline wise, Taker is the strongest at WrestleMania so it's not something that any ordinary man can do. It's going to be a struggle to get there. Like Teddy said, the longest reigning WWE Champion in the modern era couldn't do it. Mr. WrestleMania, Shawn Michaels lost his career over the streak, Triple H (a 13 time world champion) had not 1, not 2, but 3 shots at beating the streak and couldn't do it. The list goes on but what I'm trying to get at is, The Streak is not something that can be beaten within 10 minutes unless you're playing WWE 2K14. And I wouldn't call the match a glorified squash, both men did get in their fair share of offense.

You referenced a match at Wrestlemania 25? I don't know for certain what match you're referring to, I'm assuming the Undertaker v HBK?

The match actually was Triple H vs Randy Orton. Within the first two minutes after the bell rang both men were able to execute their finisher and still put up somewhat of a pretty good fight.

I just think in terms of devastating looking finishers the F5 is probably the best today at the least. And Cena got hit with one almost immediately. It just takes away the allure to me, it seems like the WWE is protecting everyone else from looking too weak. You can make easy cases for what happened to everyone he's fought this year. Big Show got attacked beforehand(even if he hit his WMD back), Taker is old and injured and was doing the job on his way out, Cena got hit with an insane move within a minute and got dropped on his head 16 times after that.

I point to Teddy's post explaining the early finisher and the subsequent toying of John Cena by Brock Lesnar as he worded the reasoning for it very we'll.

If anything, I think the WWE made the achievements less during the matches. I know that part doesn't really matter in WWE, for some reason most people don't care how good a match is. And I'm not complaining because I am like that, give me the story to a match, the start to see who's in control and the last few minutes and I'm good. I'm just saying that in terms of what he accomplished, it looks like less when you ignore the shock factor.

It looks like less when you mix backstage workings with kayfabe. Kayfabe wise, Lesnar's accomplishments are in a league of their own. The ONLY one to beat the Undertaker at WrestleMania, the ONLY one to make a top star of the company of over 10 years look like an enhancement talent in the ring for potentially two straight pay per views. Don't think that anybody has had a year like that ever.

No one thought Cena was going to get manhandled like that, but he got F5ed immediately. Even in todays era, a finisher is still the finisher most of the time..I mean on Raw last night Cesaro hit an equalizer on Sheamus and Sheamus was out for a good minute. Now imagine if during that he got suplexed 16 times.

It would wind up being a very dominant performance by Cesaro. Much like Lesnar's performance at SummerSlam against Cena was very dominant.

And to the people explaining how this is working out, again I get it. Lesnar looks dominant till someone beats him at Mania suspiciously when his contract goes up. Lesnar has an amazing year and rides off into the sunset. Reigns or Bryan take the momentum and have a HoF level career off of that. I'm saying that in making Cena, Taker and Show look better in their losses, Lesnar looks less dominant and thus the guy who ultimately gets the rub, looks less impressive.

Whoever gets the rub not only becomes the 1 who is the 1 behind 21-1, he's also the new WWE World Heavyweight Champion, more than likely, slaying the beast at the biggest show in professional wrestling, thus making him a made man.

To end with a question, imagine if Lesnar would have beat Cena in 3 minutes, 2 F5s maybe 3 suplexes. That doesn't look more dominant to people? If Lesnar beat Undertaker in 5 minutes...you're all seriously telling me that would be as or less impressive than the 25 minute match we received?

It may be more impressive but then it would lean towards unrealistic both towards the character of Brock Lesnar and, in Taker's case, the legacy of the streak. The question that was originally posed was "Is Brock Lesnar as dominant as we think" and the answer to that question is a resounding "yes" Brock Lesnar is one of if not the most dominant wrestlers the WWE has seen in years. Could the scenarios you suggested make him look more dominant? Sure, but it doesn't change that 2014 Lesnar has been the monster the WWE has hyped him up to be.

 

[CyberPunk]

Okay for your point about the WMD, yea I missed that.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't appreciate that Lesnar ended the streak, I'm just saying that it wasn't booked to make him look perfect. You're in the ring with a guy who's injured and can't go anymore, the WWE plans for you to be world champ in 5 months and to hold it for 7 months after that...why does it take you 25 minutes? It's like they didn't want Taker to look weak, yet as an old school guy Taker wanted to go out giving a rub...so why lessen the rub by taking 25 minutes to slay him? I get that it's a huge accomplishment, the Undertaker is my favorite wrestler and the allure of the streak is part of why I liked him to start, so I get that. I'm just saying, a glorified squash match was the longest match on the card? A heel going over at Wrestlemania was the longest match on the card? Dare I say, the most surprising event in recent memory still took 25 minutes to actually happen. It's like the WWE wanted us all to believe for a second that Taker could come back, if they wanted us to think that, then they're holding some of the push.

You referenced a match at Wrestlemania 25? I don't know for certain what match you're referring to, I'm assuming the Undertaker v HBK?

I just think in terms of devastating looking finishers the F5 is probably the best today at the least. And Cena got hit with one almost immediately. It just takes away the allure to me, it seems like the WWE is protecting everyone else from looking too weak. You can make easy cases for what happened to everyone he's fought this year. Big Show got attacked beforehand(even if he hit his WMD back), Taker is old and injured and was doing the job on his way out, Cena got hit with an insane move within a minute and got dropped on his head 16 times after that.

If anything, I think the WWE made the achievements less during the matches. I know that part doesn't really matter in WWE, for some reason most people don't care how good a match is. And I'm not complaining because I am like that, give me the story to a match, the start to see who's in control and the last few minutes and I'm good. I'm just saying that in terms of what he accomplished, it looks like less when you ignore the shock factor.

No one thought Cena was going to get manhandled like that, but he got F5ed immediately. Even in todays era, a finisher is still the finisher most of the time..I mean on Raw last night Cesaro hit an equalizer on Sheamus and Sheamus was out for a good minute. Now imagine if during that he got suplexed 16 times.



And to the people explaining how this is working out, again I get it. Lesnar looks dominant till someone beats him at Mania suspiciously when his contract goes up. Lesnar has an amazing year and rides off into the sunset. Reigns or Bryan take the momentum and have a HoF level career off of that. I'm saying that in making Cena, Taker and Show look better in their losses, Lesnar looks less dominant and thus the guy who ultimately gets the rub, looks less impressive.

To end with a question, imagine if Lesnar would have beat Cena in 3 minutes, 2 F5s maybe 3 suplexes. That doesn't look more dominant to people? If Lesnar beat Undertaker in 5 minutes...you're all seriously telling me that would be as or less impressive than the 25 minute match we received?

I think you are confusing booking and storytelling with real life events. Let me try and dissect this.

Brock dominated Undertaker for most part of the match. That doesn't happen in an Undertaker Mania match (at least I haven't seen that in last 5 years). He took everything Undertaker threw at him and still stood tall at the end (and of course, ended the streak). The match was booked to be epic, so naturally it was booked for 25 minutes. However, UT was injured 5 minutes into the match and Brock had to almost half ass everything he was doing in the ring. As you saw, that impacted the overall quality of the match. However, beating UT at Wrestlemania is only accomplished by one man in storyline i.e. Brock Lesnar.

Now let's come to the John Cena part. Yes, he delivered an F5 almost at the beginning of the match and Cena kicked out. But what followed was, as someone alluded, a complete annihilation and mockery of Cena. They made it look like he wanted Cena to simply quit. Cena being Cena wouldn't do it so he eventually ended it with another F5. No one in the history of this business has been able to do that to Cena, no one. I mean think about it. they had to feed the Wyatt family to Cena just to show that he can still compete with Lesnar, a man who was feuding with him just a month ago (whether it was right or wrong is a topic for another thread). That's kayfabe dominance.

Moreover, in none of those matches did he require any outside interference or underhanded tactics. He just beat them straight up in one on one match, all by himself.

As far as assaulting Big Show before match, they had to do it, just to show Big Show is still a threat. You already know that he wasn't put down by the WMD and the match ended under 6 minutes. A man who outweighs him by over 140 pounds and stands almost 6" taller and is a multiple time world champion was beaten by him withing 6 minutes.

Brock's booking is the very definition of how a monster heel is booked.

 

[LionheartY2J]

What's great about scripted television is that anybody can be as dominant as the writers want him to be.

This being said, Brock is a champion MMA fighter, and I have little doubt that in an actual fight, he would be able to lay waste to anybody on the WWE roster with minimal effort.

 

[Mudlup50]

Okay so what you guys are saying is that in his Cena match that Lesnar wanted Cena to randomly quit? For real I never heard Heyman say that so it would effect my judgement on the match and if we think about it they had to have the Big Show match end that way if they had planned on Show v Lesnar again later this year. I can totally understand that.

 

[MoRtAnDaD]

Okay so what you guys are saying is that in his Cena match that Lesnar wanted Cena to randomly quit? For real I never heard Heyman say that so it would effect my judgement on the match and if we think about it they had to have the Big Show match end that way if they had planned on Show v Lesnar again later this year. I can totally understand that.

I dont know if you paid attention to the match details and lesnar ring psichology, but he spent the entire match telling the ref to ask cena if he wanted to quit.

btw, the match was a clear indication that lesnar is not just an amazing athlete, but he is also a great pro wrestler with a great mind for in-ring storytelling and ring psicology.

 

[kadroan]

I think he is dominant as we think.

Since WrestleMania he's been booked dominant. He did look kind of weak in the buildup facing Taker.

He should have beat up Taker more but the end result of the match is all that matters.

 

[The Warlord]

Best heel I've seen in years.

I take that back...best dominate heel I've seen EVER.

Him and Paul Heyman will go down in history and people will remember TODAY as the good ol' days of wrestling when heels were HEELS. At least for Brock Lesnar.

I was one of the few who were happy with Lesnar ending the streak, and part of the majority who were stoked when he crushed Cena. I think I speak for 99% of the IWC when I say that he BETTER keep the belt until Mania otherwise Vince and the writing team will look like a bunch of asshats.

 

[rge2010]

Brock single handedly destroyed the 3MB baby! That was the peek of his powers.

But Brock has being booked powerfully without really burying the talent he has come up against.

 

[ultramattman]

Then he beats Cena but he hit an F5 early. Then he suplexed him 16 times. That's not dominant that's lucky.

What a lucky guy, he only won because he hit his opponent with devastating moves over and over again until they couldn't get up.