Intl. Region, Minneapolis Subregion, Second Round:(3)Andre the Giant vs.(14)Rikidozan

[Bernkastel]

I question how "great" some of those Japanese guys are but that's another story for later.

Awesome. I question how great the likes of Austin/Rock/Cena are all the time.

GUys like Bryan and Punk didn't just get over because of the Japanese stuff.

Where else would they go? What other medium would they have to hone their skills? Mexico? They'd have to spend allot of time in WWE farm promotions honing a very likely different craft. The strong style has it's roots in Inoki, who got them from Rikidozan. So small guys would be like Thesz in the 50's. All technique and no huge size or charisma. Meaning they don't get far in today's American product.

People like Randy Savage, and Ricky Steamboat showed what people that size can do in America and did it in matches that entertain me far more than most of the Japanese guys did. We'll also ignore that those people got over far more for their ability to talk rather than their in ring work.

You are comparing apples to oranges. What American audiences expect to see from their wrestlers is very different from what Japanese audiences expect to see from their wrestlers. That's why the likes of Andre and Hogan worked different styles in Japan.

And with Rikidozan it wouldn't be any different. He'd knock the big man around and keep him grounded. He held his own against a Thesz in hour long bouts regularly. And lesser men than that have rendered Andre helpless.

 

[klunderbunker]

Vader wouldn't even have been a character if it wasn't for Japan so he never gets over in WCW without that. And it was NJPW's agreement with WCW that got him in the door and view as a monster before he even destroyed sting. And Vader was bigger in Japan than here. He was infact a bigger draw in Japan as well.

His AWA work where he was basically Vader under a different name says otherwise. I think you're giving too much credit to Japan as the only path these guys have to the top. They were going to be big stars no matter what, as most American fans don't care about Japan at all and probably don't know what happens over there.

 

[klunderbunker]

Where else would they go? What other medium would they have to hone their skills? Mexico? They'd have to spend allot of time in WWE farm promotions honing a very likely different craft. The strong style has it's roots in Inoki, who got them from Rikidozan. So small guys would be like Thesz in the 50's. All technique and no huge size or charisma. Meaning they don't get far in today's American product.

Uh....the American indy scene, where they got over?

We'll also ignore that strong style is about as anti-wrestling as you can get and one of the worst things to ever happen.

You are comparing apples to oranges. What American audiences expect to see from their wrestlers is very different from what Japanese audiences expect to see from their wrestlers. That's why the likes of Andre and Hogan worked different styles in Japan.

And with Rikidozan it wouldn't be any different. He'd knock the big man around and keep him grounded. He held his own against a Thesz in hour long bouts regularly. And lesser men than that have rendered Andre helpless.

It's also why the money and top stars are in America. It certainly is a more entertaining style, and at the end of the day the majority of fans seem to care for the American style. Yeah there are talented guys in Japan that can put on very entertaining matches, but overall the fans are always going to go for the drama and characters instead of the in ring work.

 

[Bernkastel]

Lets be honest, Minnesota isn't a place where Rikidozan is very well known, its AWA country and Rikidozan pretty much stuck with NWA. When Andre lost in his prime it wasn't often and it was almost always to a home town guy or a territorial hero, Rikidozan does not fall into either category in Minnesota, he's certainly a big enough star to beat Andre but where the match is placed hurts him. I'm not gonna downplay Rikidozan's significance to wrestling but he isn't beating Andre in Minnesota, I just don't see it happening.

If your decision comes down to relative location then try treating the location as something neutral. If you think Andre would defeat Rikidozan in most places in the world then vote that way. If you think Rikidozan would defeat Andre in more places than that then vote the opposite. When Andre toured Japan he lost regularly, so that's out. Rikidozan was quite successful in NWA and NWA based promotions so those are out. If Andre just has the AWA as his ground point and Rikidozan has the NWA/Japan/Northwest pinned down... it seems to me that Andre is the one outgunned here.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

His AWA work where he was basically Vader under a different name says otherwise. I think you're giving too much credit to Japan as the only path these guys have to the top. They were going to be big stars no matter what, as most American fans don't care about Japan at all and probably don't know what happens over there.

Oh but WCW/NWA clearly has cared about Japan. Muta, Inoki, Rikidozan, Chono, all prove that insanely incorrect as they've all been bit/ HUGE in the states and their work in Japan was talked about constantly. Not to mention people like Liger. You're just ignoring the Japanese wrestling appeal because it doesn't fit you.

Not to mention it's not like Andre was a talker or that safe. We are talking about a guy that was drunk quite a bit, not to mention you're talking about how "unsafe" Japan when you have the attitude era over here which did wonders for guys like foley, funk, and benoit.

 

[klunderbunker]

Oh but WCW/NWA clearly has cared about Japan. Muta, Inoki, Rikidozan, Chono, all prove that insanely incorrect as they've all been bit/ HUGE in the states and their work in Japan was talked about constantly. Not to mention people like Liger. You're just ignoring the Japanese wrestling appeal because it doesn't fit you.

Not to mention it's not like Andre was a talker or that safe. We are talking about a guy that was drunk quite a bit, not to mention you're talking about how "unsafe" Japan when you have the attitude era over here which did wonders for guys like foley, funk, and benoit.

Yes they did and look at where the NWA is now. Late 1992 when they started looking more to Japan is a low point for the promotion, though that's far less about the Japanese talent and more about the way the company was run. Also, Muta is the only one of those that was huge in America. Chono was there and then left with next to no fanfare.

You misunderstood part of what I said. I don't find the Japanese guys unsafe. I find the ROH and most indy guys unsafe.

 

[Bernkastel]

Uh....the American indy scene, where they got over?

What indy scene? Most people that are any good get fed into a promotion the level of ROH or CHIKARA before they get called to a WWE farm promotion. maybe if this were 20 years ago, but local indy wrestling promotions are a niche now.

We'll also ignore that strong style is about as anti-wrestling as you can get and one of the worst things to ever happen.

Yes, to an American fan strong style doesn't make any sense. To a Japanese fan it makes perfect sense. And it was popular and remains popular today.

It's also why the money and top stars are in America.

That's because WWE is the only global promotion in 2014. In the 90's they were still a national promotion. NJPW and AJPW ere putting up comparable numbers to Wrestlemania and Starrcade on their big shows regularly.

And it's a moot point considering we're discussing two guys with primes from way before that.

It certainly is a more entertaining style

That's subjective. I like both equally.

and at the end of the day the majority of fans seem to care for the American style.

Maybe based on today's standards, but this isn't true about anything from 20 years ago. Maybe not even 10 years ago.

Yeah there are talented guys in Japan that can put on very entertaining matches, but overall the fans are always going to go for the drama and characters instead of the in ring work.

AJPW had drama/story lines/and emotion. NJPW didn't. It was mostly based on shoot style like back in the 40's and 50's. Both were equally as successful for many decades. Same with NOAH and Dragon Gate.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

Uh....the American indy scene, where they got over?

We'll also ignore that strong style is about as anti-wrestling as you can get and one of the worst things to ever happen.

That's so wrong it's not even close to true. Chair shots, Table spots, flying off titan trons. Anything from the 90's over here is basically bullshit that caused deaths and brain damage. Not to mention the effects of steroids on the hearts of young wrestlers in conjunction with pain pills. I don't know many jacked up Japanese wrestlers.

It's also why the money and top stars are in America. It certainly is a more entertaining style, and at the end of the day the majority of fans seem to care for the American style. Yeah there are talented guys in Japan that can put on very entertaining matches, but overall the fans are always going to go for the drama and characters instead of the in ring work.

Again not true, up until the mid 90's you could make a better life in japan than over here. Being a technical wrestler over there was a bigger deal in Japan than it ever was here. Not to mention the money is here based on Japan's shit economy for the most part. Not to mention during "ANDRE'S prime" it was more about wrestling than showmanship as well.

 

[klunderbunker]

What indy scene? Most people that are any good get fed into a promotion the level of ROH or CHIKARA before they get called to a WWE farm promotion. maybe if this were 20 years ago, but local indy wrestling promotions are a niche now.

ECW, IWA-MS, OVW, HWA, Memphis, MCW. I could go on but I think you get the point.

Yes, to an American fan strong style doesn't make any sense. To a Japanese fan it makes perfect sense. And it was popular and remains popular today.

Yes it does, to far smaller audiences as a whole. Hence why Andre is a much bigger star and should go on here.

That's because WWE is the only global promotion in 2014. In the 90's they were still a national promotion. NJPW and AJPW ere putting up comparable numbers to Wrestlemania and Starrcade on their big shows regularly.

Really? Did I imagine those British PPVs, Raws from Germany and Wrestlemania VI in Canada? That sounds pretty international to me.

Maybe based on today's standards, but this isn't true about anything from 20 years ago. Maybe not even 10 years ago.

Really? I was at an ROH show on April 4 and saw about 2000 people there. I saw about 35 times that for an American style show two days later.

Advantage: American style.

AJPW had drama/story lines/and emotion. NJPW didn't. It was mostly based on shoot style like back in the 40's and 50's. Both were equally as successful for many decades. Same with NOAH and Dragon Gate.

I'd think Andre could hold his own in a shoot style just fine, despite the fact that this isn't shoot style.

 

[klunderbunker]

That's so wrong it's not even close to true. Chair shots, Table spots, flying off titan trons. Anything from the 90's over here is basically bullshit that caused deaths and brain damage. Not to mention the effects of steroids on the hearts of young wrestlers in conjunction with pain pills. I don't know many jacked up Japanese wrestlers.

I don't consider the violent stuff to be wrestling which I why I omitted it. I'm talking about listening to imbeciles chant THIS IS WRESTLING when they see people get hit with 15 forearms to the head and just growl.

Again not true, up until the mid 90's you could make a better life in japan than over here. Being a technical wrestler over there was a bigger deal in Japan than it ever was here. Not to mention the money is here based on Japan's shit economy for the most part. Not to mention during "ANDRE'S prime" it was more about wrestling than showmanship as well.

So now we're bringing in international economics? I think we're stretching a bit at this point.

Here's what it boils down to. Andre was a big star in America, Japan, and elsewhere around the world. Rikidozan is a bigger star in Japan than Andre was elsewhere, but Andre is bigger overall.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

I don't consider the violent stuff to be wrestling which I why I omitted it. I'm talking about listening to imbeciles chant THIS IS WRESTLING when they see people get hit with 15 forearms to the head and just growl.

Well those chants aren't from Japan considering their crowds hardly ever chant. I also expect you to vote against Austin since he's a guy that used a chair or chairs used in most of his biggest matches, and that's not even wrestling.

So now we're bringing in international economics? I think we're stretching a bit at this point.

Here's what it boils down to. Andre was a big star in America, Japan, and elsewhere around the world. Rikidozan is a bigger star in Japan than Andre was elsewhere, but Andre is bigger overall.

Well considering in that economy Misawa and his ilk where drawing 16,600 monthly/weekly at times. And those crowds can be compared to Wrestlemania crowds of the same era in the 1990's. Thesz put over Rikidozan in the states, I think you're overblowing your argument here. Thesz was huge, for an international guy to come overseas and beat him in his prime in the states, tells you exactly how huge Dozan was. And not just in Japan but world wide.

 

[klunderbunker]

Well those chants aren't from Japan considering their crowds hardly ever chant.

I'm aware. Again, talking about indy wrestling. Try to keep up.

Well considering in that economy Misawa and his ilk where drawing 16,600 monthly/weekly at times. And those crowds can be compared to Wrestlemania crowds of the same era in the 1990's. Thesz put over Rikidozan in the states, I think you're overblowing your argument here. Thesz was huge, for an international guy to come overseas and beat him in his prime in the states, tells you exactly how huge Dozan was. And not just in Japan but world wide.

Rikidozan is indeed a big star and very influential as I've said many times. He's simply not as big of a star as Andre worldwide.

 

[Bernkastel]

ECW, IWA-MS, OVW, HWA, Memphis, MCW. I could go on but I think you get the point.

NJPW, JWA, AJPW, and NOAH were all bigger than any of those. Half of those were pushing hardcore and ultraviolet hardcore. I wonder why WWE never called up Ian Rotten or New Jack. Is that what you'd want for Punk and Bryan in the absence of puro?

Yes it does, to far smaller audiences as a whole. Hence why Andre is a much bigger star and should go on here.

For house shows. Not big events. And based on that logic Kofi, who is major player within a globally known WWE and is known by a global audience, should beat Dusty Rhodes, who wasn't.

The waves Andre made as a journeyman were nothing compared to the tsunami Rikidzan caused in the home country. Quality > quantity. And perhaps that's a personal bias of mine.

Really? Did I imagine those British PPVs, Raws from Germany and Wrestlemania VI in Canada? That sounds pretty international to me.

Great. Japanese promotions were doing the same thing. Moot point. None of which would have happened without Rikidozan to prepare that stage in the first place. Did Andre actually help establish any stages by himself or was he just a major supporting player? It was the latter.

Really? I was at an ROH show on April 4 and saw about 2000 people there. I saw about 35 times that for an American style show two days later.

Advantage: American style.

You've missed my point. My point was ROH was primarily influenced by Japanese wrestling. Influence that would not be there if it weren't for Rikidozan. WWE, WCW, and TNA have all drawn influence from Japan as well. Thanks Rikidozan.

I'd think Andre could hold his own in a shoot style just fine, despite the fact that this isn't shoot style.

Inoki has a win record of 61% against Andre. He jobbed regularly in NJPW. And you're right. This isn't a shoot because no styles of any kind are involved. This is a debate on which guy is the bigger legend and deserves to more forward in this mock tournament. Clearly that's Rikidozan.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

Wait wait Inoki beat Andre that much? and this is a debate? Inoki isn't anywhere near Rikidozan. If Inoki went over Andre not only could Rikidozan, but he WOULD go over Andre

 

[klunderbunker]

NJPW, JWA, AJPW, and NOAH were all bigger than any of those. Half of those were pushing hardcore and ultraviolet hardcore. I wonder why WWE never called up Ian Rotten or New Jack. Is that what you'd want for Punk and Bryan in the absence of puro?

OVW, HWA and Memphis were all WWF farm systems at one point or another and not pushing hardcore style. Those are the companies that gave you John Cena, Randy Orton, Batista, Brock Lesnar and more, despite the fact that at least the first two started elsewhere. Again: talent will make it to the big time despite where they start.

For house shows. Not big events. And based on that logic Kofi, who is major player within a globally known WWE and is known by a global audience, should beat Dusty Rhodes, who wasn't.

You don't think Dusty Rhodes is known to a worldwide audience? Come on man you're smarter than that.

The waves Andre made as a journeyman were nothing compared to the tsunami Rikidzan caused in the home country. Quality > quantity. And perhaps that's a personal bias of mine.

Wrestlemania 3 > everything Rikidozan did in Japan.

Great. Japanese promotions were doing the same thing. Moot point. None of which would have happened without Rikidozan to prepare that stage in the first place. Did Andre actually help establish any stages by himself or was he just a major supporting player? It was the latter.

I'd love to see where those promotions were running America and Europe.

Major supporting player in an international company at the peak of wrestling in America > the top guy in Japan.

Not to mention February 5, 1988 on NBC with Hogan vs. Andre II drawing 33 million people to prime time American television, good for over 1/10 of a far bigger audience than Japan. If that's not establishing something, I don't know what is.

You've missed my point. My point was ROH was primarily influenced by Japanese wrestling. Influence that would not be there if it weren't for Rikidozan. WWE, WCW, and TNA have all drawn influence from Japan as well. Thanks Rikidozan.

Those companies have drawn some influence yeah, but not the majority of it or even a large part by any stretch.

Inoki has a win record of 61% against Andre. He jobbed regularly in NJPW. And you're right. This isn't a shoot because no styles of any kind are involved. This is a debate on which guy is the bigger legend and deserves to more forward in this mock tournament. Clearly that's Rikidozan.

Clearly you aren't as educated on this as I thought you were.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

If your decision comes down to relative location then try treating the location as something neutral. If you think Andre would defeat Rikidozan in most places in the world then vote that way. If you think Rikidozan would defeat Andre in more places than that then vote the opposite. When Andre toured Japan he lost regularly, so that's out. Rikidozan was quite successful in NWA and NWA based promotions so those are out. If Andre just has the AWA as his ground point and Rikidozan has the NWA/Japan/Northwest pinned down... it seems to me that Andre is the one outgunned here.

Even though it doesn't matter because the match is in Minneapolis I really don't think he's winning in all NWA based promotions, I don't think he's winning in most NWA based promotions either, I see Rikidozan beating him in the West coast promotions but I don't see him winning in places like Texas, or in the eastern states lie Georgia. Likewise I don't see him winning in places like Europe either. Rikidozan would take most of the Pacific but I don't see him taking much else than that. There's a whole big chunk of the world that isn't familiar with Rikidozan but everyone's familiar with Andre so he's gonna win in most places.

 

[Bernkastel]

OVW, HWA and Memphis were all WWF farm systems at one point or another and not pushing hardcore style. Those are the companies that gave you John Cena, Randy Orton, Batista, Brock Lesnar and more, despite the fact that at least the first two started elsewhere. Again: talent will make it to the big time despite where they start.

True statement. But that doesn't mean that history would repeat itself either. Who knows were the likes of Punk and Byran would be in the absence of puroresu. The point is Rikidozan gave so any wrestlers a stage to hone their skills to better their own legacies; Andre included. That alone makes him much more important to the industry.

You don't think Dusty Rhodes is known to a worldwide audience? Come on man you're smarter than that.

He is in 2014. Probably doubtful he was in the 80's. And if he was it's because he worked on a stage that Rikidozan created that allowed him to be introduced to Asian audiences. Unless you think the US/Canada/Europe constitutes "the world."

Wrestlemania 3 > everything Rikidozan did in Japan.

Inoki/NJPW/WCW drew 150,000 in North Korea. An event made possible through the ties between nations and the stage that Rikidozan helped create. Again, thanks Rikidozan.

I'd love to see where those promotions were running America and Europe.

WCW/NJPW and JWA/NWA collaborations say hi.

Major supporting player in an international company at the peak of wrestling in America > the top guy in Japan.

Nope. Not when the Japanese promotions were also international by your definition.

Not to mention February 5, 1988 on NBC with Hogan vs. Andre II drawing 33 million people to prime time American television, good for over 1/10 of a far bigger audience than Japan. If that's not establishing something, I don't know what is.

Rikidozan drew an 87.0 television rating with Lou Thesz. And his match with Destroyer drew an 67.0 television rating. If anything Riki drew more with less to work with. For me that counts as a greater accomplishment.

Those companies have drawn some influence yeah, but not the majority of it or even a large part by any stretch.

As much as puro drew from them.

Clearly you aren't as educated on this as I thought you were.

I'm plenty educated. Thanks. I just see to express my views differently to engage in such debates.

 

[klunderbunker]

True statement. But that doesn't mean that history would repeat itself either. Who knows were the likes of Punk and Byran would be in the absence of puroresu. The point is Rikidozan gave so any wrestlers a stage to hone their skills to better their own legacies; Andre included. That alone makes him much more important to the industry.

A stage which they didn't need due to the other promotions listed which were very much American style. I agree it played a role, but it wasn't a vital one.

He is in 2014. He doubtful he was in the 80's. And if he was it's because he worked on a stage that Rikidozan created that allowed him to be introduced to Asian audiences.

This is why I question how good you are at this. The NWA World Title was a huge deal back then and made you an international star.

Inoki/NJPW/WCW drew 150,000 in North Korea. An event made possible through the ties between nations and the stage that Rikidozan helped create. Again, thanks Rikidozan.

I'd bet a lot of money it was more due to "go to this show or have bullets in your head" than Rikidozan.

WCW/NJPW and JWA/NWA collaborations say hi.

Wow you really are stretching. Some of the least important shows in WCW history (so much so that they're not even on the Network) really do match up with Wrestlemania III dude.

Nope. Not when the Japanese promotions were also international by your definition.

When did I define it that way?

Rikidozan drew an 87.0 television rating with Lou Thesz. And his match with Destroyer drew an 67.0 television rating. If anything Riki drew more with less to work with. For me that counts as a greater accomplishment.

Again, smaller audience when there were far fewer options to pick from.

I'm plenty educated. Thanks. I just see to express my views differently.

You're claiming that Japanese wrestling is the reason a lot of WWE stars are where they are now. That puts you more into the "Japan is awesome, the rest of the world just isn't as good" camp, which isn't what I would call all that incredible.

 

[Bernkastel]

A stage which they didn't need due to the other promotions listed which were very much American style. I agree it played a role, but it wasn't a vital one.

It play a vital one because who knows where'd the people that used that stage to boost their careers would be if it didn't exist. Certainly there'd be no world wide stars. Only international one's.

This is why I question how good you are at this. The NWA World Title was a huge deal back then and made you an international star.

I've been on a world scale; not an international scale.

I'd bet a lot of money it was more due to "go to this show or have bullets in your head" than Rikidozan.

Possibly, but the event was only allowed to take place because it was profitable. Those profits used as a sign of peace.

When did I define it that way?

Simply speaking Rikidozan himself was an international star. And the stage he built was also international because it produced other international stars that helped promote wresting on a global scale.

Again, smaller audience when there were far fewer options to pick from.

In the late 40's. Sure. That shouldn't be a detriment to him.

You're claiming that Japanese wrestling is the reason a lot of WWE stars are where they are now. That puts you more into the "Japan is awesome, the rest of the world just isn't as good" camp, which isn't what I would call all that incredible.

I claimed it was helpful in getting them to where they are now in the speed that they did, and the personas and workmanship they adapted from the Japanese styles they learned. It certainly wasn't the only reason, as you pointed out. But without it those superstars would highly likely not be the same. Their current successes would be questionable because of that. That's my point.

 

[deem]

I'll keep this fairly brief as I really have no time at the moment. Skipping posting in every thread, this seems like it should be close and I have an opinion though.

I find it fairly hard to separate these two. Both are big draws, both have huge legacies, both influential, both dominant kayfabe. Riki has the power to handle someone like Andre and the size too. I've talked a lot about Andre's win/loss in the past - yes its great, no it's not as good as everyone thinks and he does put people over in their territories frequently.

The way I split this is, as I always do, with conceptualizing this tournament in a real modern day environment, where all these wrestlers are in their prime and competing for the most prestigious title of the year.

That brings me to my point - yes, Rikidozan was a trend setter and was a number one draw in Asia during his time. I do not believe, had Inoki/Misawa/Kobashi/Muta/Baba been around and at their prime at the same time, that he would have the same popularity. He was the first, a ground breaker, but his value diminishes when you consider the fully evolved spectrum of wrestlers we see here.

Andre? He is unique. Totally and utterly unique. The closest thing we've got is Big Show, but he lacks the aura that Andre has.

So my vote goes to Andre. I believe he'd be more valuable in this tournament than Rikidozan and I'm voting accordingly. I can't split them kayfabe, which would be my first port of call. Btw, @ the stats vs Inoki, I've already referenced Andre losing more in others territories than is acknowledged, and his record vs Inoki in Japan is 4 wins 4 losses.

So as not to be hypocritical, I'd apply this argument to Thesz/Sammartino and the likes as well, but their longevity and dominance in a more competitive era gives them more consideration than Rikidozan for me.