Innovater of the ladder match: HBK or Benjamin

[justinept]

People need to learn what "innovative" means ... it literally means "pertaining to innovate." .... ok that said, people need to learn what "innovate" means! Innovate literally means "to take something established and change it."

I don't think anyone will disagree that Benjamin has done some cool things with the ladder, but what has he done to change the way ladder matches are done? Those high-flying spots he does off the ladder might be cooler than anything Michaels has done on a ladder, but the fact is that Michaels is the one who brought high-flying moves to ladder matches in the first place.

Go look up old ladder matches in Stampede. Hell, just watch the Ladder Match DVD - there's one right at the beginning with Jake Roberts! That match is NOTHING like the one Michaels and Hall put on at WrestleMania X. The Mania ladder match completely changed the way ladder matches are done.

As for Hall not getting credit - the main reason he doesn't get credit is because Michaels was the one who did the high-flying spots in the match. The true innovation of the match was jumping off the ladder. Hall didn't jump.

 

[h_b_k]

I think that since HBK started the whole thing he would be the true innovator. But I also think that Benjamin was important as well. But in between I think ur missing Jeff Hardy, Matt Hardy, Edge. These guys turned the ladder match into what is today. They started the high-flyin moves from the ladder and just about everything else important to our current match.

 

[CH David]

Okay, now before I get started, I think we should actually introduce the definition of both innovator.

–verb (used with object)

to introduce (something new) for or as if for the first time: to innovate a computer operating system.

Glad that is cleared up.

I think that their is other superstars who can be nominated as innovators of the ladder match. The Hardy Boys, Edge and Christian, and Kofi. Yes I said Kofi. We only have seen him in one ladder match. (MITB) and IMO he stole the show.

Kofi? I love him but HELL NO is he an innovator of the ladder match.

But between Michaels and Shelton, i will brake it down like this.....

You are doing brake jobs? Good, my car needs one. Are you cheap? I'm big on spelling correctly. Break, b-r-e-a-k.

Shawn Michaels WAS in the first WWF/WWE ladder match along with Razor. And like so many of you have pointed out, he WAS one of the first to use the ladder as a weapon. Not to take any of that away from Shawn but, WOW BIG DEAL!! ANY BODY CAN DO THAT! Inventive but not Innovative!

And yet, it wasn't done before, you moron. That is why it is called fucking innovation. Holy shit. HBK also did a moonsault off the ladder, which wasn't seen before, and tried a splash on Razor Ramon and missed. That shit was unheard of back then. May not make him an innovator, just doing those moves, but because of what he was willing to go through, with Bret and Razor Ramon, that is what was innovative.

Shelton IS arguably between the two. the MOST Innovative of the ladder match. In resent years Shelton has done some really innovative moves that we have never seen any superstar do with and on a ladder. Have you ever seen any other WWE superstar jump off the ropes onto the ladder? Or run full speed up the rungs of the ladder? Those my friends are innovative moves.

Bull-fucking-shit he is the most innovative. You praise him for saying he jumped off the ropes, onto a ladder, calling it innovation. Yet when HBK used the ladder as a weapon for the first time, it isn't? You suck. However, as a friend told me, this argument of a move or two in a match is only a fly on a horse's ass. Moves don't mean innovation as a whole. I could do a 450 off a ladder, did I innovate anything? Nope. I got long winded there.

Michaels and Razor put the ladder match on the map, but IMO Shelton is more innovative in the ladder match then Michaels.

Shelton has no way, shape, or form, changed the way the ladder match is performed. His name should not be associated with innovating the ladder match. Prove to me without a shadow of a doubt, how he has changed the match itself. Shawn and Razor changed how it should be performed. The Hardys, E&C, and later on the Dudleys, changed how ladder matches would be in a tag team setting. Shelton has not done shit to change it!

 

[klunderbunker]

It's Shawn. Shawn got the idea of the ladder match over on a national scale. Shelton has never once carried a ladder match. Not once. He's been in one that wasn't MITB I believe and that one was good but not great. The one on one ladder match was made epic by Shawn and Razor, but Shawn did more in it (the idea that it was all Shawn is bogus as hell though). Shelton has done cool looking stuff, but without Shawn, Shelton wouldn't be doing what he does on a ladder. Shawn is the innovatoe.

 

[ScreaminNormanSmiley]

You need to brush up on your knowledge there Mama Benjamin. HBK beat Razor Ramon at Summerslam in '95.

that is true but in their first ladder match at mania razor ramon won. and innovating is introducing something new so the second ladder match they had was not as innovative was it?

 

[CH David]

that is true but in their first ladder match at mania razor ramon won. and innovating is introducing something new so the second ladder match they had was not as innovative was it?

You aren't getting the point. He said that HBK had never won a ladder match, to his knowledge. So I responded with a fact that Shawn had won. That portion had no point other than showing his knowledge was in fact, wrong. Read it, it is in there when I quoted what he said. Either way, Shawn is more innovative in the ladder match than Shelton. He brought it to where it is now, and as KB said, Shelton would not be doing his decent moves each MITB without Shawn, and Bret Hart and Razor Ramon, or hell, probably even without the Hardys and Edge and Christian.

 

[Alex]

If I had to pick between the two of them it's Shawn Michaels definitely. Shelton Benjamen's ladder matches have not been that memorable in my opinion. When Shawn Michaels did the diving elbow and splash off the ladder onto Razor Ramon, everyone was in awe as it had never been seen before, this paved the way for crazier spots (such as Benjamen's)

 

[Jonnie Walker]

I would say that the Hardy's made it what it is today, but when it comes down to Shelton vs. HBK, I go with HBK as the innovator, even though IMO Benjamin performs better in them and gives more of those moments, like every year he's in the MitB match. Expect him to do something crazy this year as well. But HBK was in the first ladder match, he's been in quite a few, and he's performed well in all of them. There wouldn't be a ladder match without HBK, there wouldn't be crazy stunts off ladders without the Hardy's (specifically Jeff), and there wouldn't be an annual "Holy Shit!" moment at Wrestlemania without Shelton.

 

[Tastycles]

There are two sets of innovators in the ladder match as far as I am concerned. The first two are Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart. Hart introduced the match into the company, but he wasn't in any of the televised ones. However, if you watch the ladder match between these two in about 1992 which is on the ladder match DVD and also on some old Colosseum Home Video you will see just about every single spot used on early ladder matches. They are the innovators of the single ladder ladder match.

The next group are the Hardys and Edge and Christian. Starting with their match at No Mercy 1999, they showed the world what can be done with two or more ladders and invented the notion of the huge spot involving numerous ladders in ladder matches. You see the influence of these men today in both multi man and singles ladder matches.

 

[Safari.GFX]

I must say, if Michaels is the inovator of Ladder matches, then so is Scott Hall, because he was in the first WWE ladder match.

Neither were in the first ladder match ever. If I remember correctly, there was a ladder match in the 70's. It was different, but I can't seem to remember the man that was in it. He was a black man, and I think the word "Dog" was in somewhere in his name. Anyone help me?

 

[kobrad]

I think that the Hardy's are also the innovators of the ladder match, but i must say that Benjamin is the most athletic and uses the ladder like no one else ever wil!

So between Benjamin and HBK?

"Ain't no stopping me now" I say BENJAMIN

 

[CH David]

I think that the Hardy's are also the innovators of the ladder match, but i must say that Benjamin is the most athletic and uses the ladder like no one else ever wil!

So between Benjamin and HBK?

"Ain't no stopping me now" I say BENJAMIN

And I say you are a moron. It doesn't matter that Benjamin is a great athlete. How many times do I have to say it?!?! The question is, who is the fucking innovator of the ladder match. Shelton has not innovated a god damn thing! He has not changed the way the match goes about. Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart, and Razor Ramon did in the WWE. They changed the way ladders were used in the match itself. Other innovators were the Hardys and Edge & Christian at the tag team level. Fucking think about it people!!!!!!!!

 

[Tenta]

Is this even a question?

Look, Shelton has some nice little spots, but Shawn tells more of a story in the first ten seconds of a match than Shelton Benjamin ever has. The closest he came to telling a story during a ladder match is his match with Christian, and even then, that was a complete spot fest. That's the problem with wrestling fans today; instead of watching the art that is storytelling (and there's plenty to be had in a ladder match, which is all about a climb to the top of your profession), we'd rather watch guys flipping off ladders, and to watch people attempt Jackass-esque stunts, trying to get their pay check bumped up another coupe dollars. We revel at the Hardys, E&C, and the Dudleyz, because while there were plenty of spots, there was also a great storytelling, and legitimate logic as to the spots they performed.

For example, take Edge's spear on Jeff Hardy at Wrestlemania X-7. Sure, it was a spot, but it made total sense; the heel, opportunistic tag team causes the mega-over faces to lose their tag team titles by blindsiding one of them, just while the mega-over faces are about to win the belts. Then, just in time, they pull up a ladder, and retrieve the belts, unopposed by anyone. Not only is it a great spot, but it makes sense.

The closest Shelton Benjamin has ever come to using logic in a ladder match is by thinking, "Well, no one gives a shit about me anyway, so I may as well jump, and hope I get a pop". No, no, no, if you want to do spots, that's fine. But that doesn't make the guy an innovator, by any stretch of the means. There is innovation, and then there's desperation. Shelton Benjamin suffers from the latter.

Shawn, meanwhile, is able to have that same ladder match, use his spots, use them wisely, as not to injure himself or his opponent, and still tell a story, which is all pro wrestling ever is. I'm going to give it to Shawn, and it's not even close.

 

[Meaty]

While I wouldn't go as far as to say that Benjamin's spots are a cry for desperation, they still can't compare to Michael's legacy. Say what you will about Benjamin, but every year in the MITB, he gets the crowd pumped up. Whether that be "Holy Shit, that's fucking awesome" excitement, or "Holy Shit, I hope he breaks his fucking neck so I don't have to see him on my television set anymore" excitement, it's excitement. To be honest, Benjamin could probably put on a more high-flying, intense Ladder match than Michaels at this point in their careers. Michaels has never been a super spot monkey, and Benjamin is the definition of one.

However, this is about the innovator of Ladder Matches, no? Innovation means first or new. Michaels were in some of the very first few Ladder matches, and Benjamin wasn't. So Michaels wins. Sure, we'd have some slow Money In The Bank moments if it wasn't for Benjamin, but there likely wouldn't be any Money In The Bank at all if it wasn't for Michaels.

 

[Big Sexy]

Obviously it's HBK. He was the first to test the limits in the ladder match. Scot Hall wasn't really capable of doing any high spots so Michaels was the one taking all of the big risks. Without a doubt he was the original innovator.

After HBK you have the Hardyz, E and C, and the Dudleys who were innovative with the TLC matches. The Matches they had at Wrestlemania 16 and 17, and Summerslam 2000 were all great.

Although Shelton has been far from one of the most innovative there is one thing he did with the ladder that I had never seen before. At Wrestlemania 21 in the first MITB match he ran up a ladder that was leaning against one that was set up in the ring to clothesline Jericho off. That was an innovative move. At this point there really isn't too much more that can be done, just variations of things that have already happened. I'm sure if Shelton was around 10 years ago then he would be considered more of an innovator but at this point there isn't much to innovate.

 

[KoC417]

Bottom line, I cannot recall a single ladder match Benjamin has been in by date, whereas I can recall nearly every ladder match HBK has been in. It doesn't matter how many flips a man can do off a ladder to force a couple "oh man!" remarks from the audience. What matters is if the man can do something so memorable that you can recall the match. Benjamin has been in several ladder matches, I can imagine him flying off the top, but I can't specify the events as well as I can with Shawn. His matches meant more to wrestling and to me as a fan.

You can't be serious that you don't remember Benjamin's ladder matches man! Do you not watch/follow Wrestle Mania!? Do you not follow ANY WWE PPVs? *shakes head* I can honestly see that you are an HBK mark...not that I blame you by any stretch (I'm basing this on your name, and pic). But for you to sell Shelton's ladder matches off as "unmemorable" is basically a slap in the face to the man that has done more than enough high risk and death defying moves in these matches to deserve recognition for if nothing else bringing the "E" to the ladder matches.

Benjamin doing his run up the ladder at WM 21 at Staples Center was INSANE. His T-Bone Suplex off of the Ladder was OUTSTANDING. Benjamin diving from the inside of the ring to the outside using the ladder as a spring board was just incredible.

I know first hand whenever Benjamin is in a ladder match that there will be a HUGE spot for him. A moment where I can slide to the edge of my seat and legitimately say "WOW" out loud. While HBK has given us memorable Ladder match moments, Benjamin has also done the same.

So to answer your question about the innovator? Benjamin by a small margin.