Innovater of the ladder match: HBK or Benjamin

[Arkham Noir]

With Wrestlemania being a week away, one thing that you can truly count on is Shelton Benjamin doing something insane in the money in the bank ladder match. This is a trend that has almost occured every year since the MITB concept began.Shelton will most likely only be rembered to most for his ladder match performances once he is gone, and rightfully so.

But my question here whether or not his contributions to the match are the most profound in history. HBK is usaually known as the innovater of the ladder match due to him competing in the WWE's first.Yet one can not say that Shelton Benjamin has done some of the most amazing things with a ladder that we have ever seen.

So who do you think is the innovater of the ladder match in the WWE? The man who did it first in Sawn Micheals, or the man who has become the highlight reel for the Money In The Bank Ladder match, Shelton Benjamin?

 

[CHAOS]

um neither, The Hardys are the innovators of the ladder matches, no question. They made ladder matches what they are today and have come up with some of the most original ideas with weapons in the history of wrestling

 

[Mr.Superstar]

um neither, The Hardys are the innovators of the ladder matches, no question. They made ladder matches what they are today and have come up with some of the most original ideas with weapons in the history of wrestling

I think CHAOS is right the hardy's did make ladder matches what they are today and I have to strongly agree with him.

But if I had to choose between Shelton and Michaels I would say Benjamin because yeah so what Shwan Michaels was in the first ladder match to me that doesn't mean that much. But Shelton has done alot of unique moves with laddders and he had a very memorable creash with a ladder at Wrestlemania 24 and I think Shelton is the true innovator of the ladder match out of the two.

 

[Mitch Henessey]

This is a very interesting question you ask MC NeoN. While HBK does have the more memorable ladder matches under his belt, Benjamin has put on some amazing performances in his share of ladder matches also. The problem is, most of Shelton's memorable ladder match moments come from the MITB, and it's usually only one moment. HBK on the other hand, has been involved in some good/great ladder matches in the past. Even his ladder match with Jericho from No Mercy 2008 was pretty good.

Benjamin has been involved in some good ladder matches like they one he recently had with Christian at the TLC ppv, but HBK will always be looked at as the innovator of the ladder match in WWF/WWE. He will always be looked at as the innovator because he was the 1st one in WWE to have great/spectacular ladder matches. Benjamin might go down as the next best thing, but HBK will always be looked at as #1 when it comes to the ladder matches in WWE.

 

[LongHessa]

This is a easy question and a easy answer...Who's the man that brought the ladder match to the WWE? Bret Hart. Therefore he is the true innovater of the WWE's ladder match.

 

[pessimism101]

Bret Hart was the inventor of the ladder match, but not necessarily the innovator. Based on the definition of innovation, there's no doubt that Shawn Michaels is the innovator of the Ladder Match. Let's face it, if the Ladder Match at Wrestlemania X was a bust and the fans hated it, I doubt very much that there would have been another one. (You haven't seen a Punjabi Prison or Kennel from Hell match lately, have you?) So, had it not been for HBK and Scott Hall stealing the show, guys like the Hardys, Edge, Christian and Shelton Benjamin would never have had the opportunity to do anything with a Ladder Match since they would never have been in one.

 

[CH David]

If I have to choose between the two of them, I'd have to go with Shawn Michaels. What has Shelton brought to the table that is new? From where I sit, he hasn't innovated a damn thing. He is in MITB every year because he is athletic and can do decent stuff. Shawn, well he was in the first WWE ladder match against Bret Hart, who brought it over from Stampede Wrestling. But one person can't innovate a single match. You need two, or more to tango. Shawn had two good opponents for the first three Bret Hart and Razor Ramon. So in a singles ladder match, or every man for himself, I'll give the edge to Shawn, with the aid of Bret and Razor.

However, if you want to go into tag team ladder matches, watch the Hardy Boyz vs. Edge and Christian from No Mercy '99. That was the first time for a tag team ladder match, and they brought it hard. Add in the Dudley Boyz at Wrestlemania 16, and their subsequent ladder or TLC matches, and there you go. Shelton should not be called an innovator of the ladder match. He hasn't added anything spectacular to the match like others have. Hell, Christian was part of the tag team innovation back in 99-01.

 

[dcfromcc]

i'd have to say dynamite kid or bret hart. their ladder matches in stampede that inspired the first wwf ladder match with hart-michaels, werent full of the flashy hot spots, rather raw viciousness. they had the real hardcore down for sure, and nothing will touch there intesnity. PERIOD.

 

[Kliq]

Bottom line, I cannot recall a single ladder match Benjamin has been in by date, whereas I can recall nearly every ladder match HBK has been in. It doesn't matter how many flips a man can do off a ladder to force a couple "oh man!" remarks from the audience. What matters is if the man can do something so memorable that you can recall the match. Benjamin has been in several ladder matches, I can imagine him flying off the top, but I can't specify the events as well as I can with Shawn. His matches meant more to wrestling and to me as a fan.

 

[Chicago1989]

Oh without question, it's Shawn Michaels. He introduced the match and tore the house down when he was in those matches. The Hardy Boyz also deserve a huge amount of credit for their innovation as well. HBK brought in the match and stole the show but The Hardy's set a new standard in Ladder matches for years to come.

Shelton Benjamin is nothing more than a pawn in these kinds of matches. He gets no credit, no push...nothing. But when it comes the Money In The Bank Ladder match, "Oh let's get Shelton in there because that's all he's good for. Right? Spots?". He gets his moments but he gets no kind of credit for his work to the point where spotting only at WrestleMania is his actual gimmick. It's sad...

 

[LongHessa]

i'd have to say dynamite kid or bret hart. their ladder matches in stampede that inspired the first wwf ladder match with hart-michaels, werent full of the flashy hot spots, rather raw viciousness. they had the real hardcore down for sure, and nothing will touch there intesnity. PERIOD.

This. I can't believe I forgot about the Hart/Dynamite ladder matches from the Stampede days. This IMO just ended this discussion. There matches were the prototype for future WWE ladder matches, and completely insane. Anyone who says "without question Shawn Michaels" needs to check out a tape of those matches, and they were about 10-12 years before HBK even knew what a ladder match was.

 

[justinept]

Gotta love the 15-year olds trolling the boards tonight. However, anyone over the age of 25 doesn't even consider Shelton Benjamin on the list for this topic, must less number 1.

While Stampede did - I believe - invent the ladder match, and it was Hart who brought the ladder match to the WWE - the true innovator of the match is Shawn Michaels.

Michaels may not have done the craziest things with the ladder, but go watch a pre-Michaels ladder match. You'll notice that Michaels brought in the concept of using the ladder as a weapon and the concept of jumping off the ladder. These are the two concepts that make ladder matches what they are.

The word "innovative" literally means to take something that has been done before and change the way it is done. Michaels took the ladder match, a match based around climbing a ladder and he turned it into a violent, high-flying match.

What the hell has Benjamin done outside of using Michaels' innovation?

 

[EGfan4life]

As Shelton's number one fan, obviously I'll pick Shelton. I love HBK to death but Shelton truly reinvented the concept of a ladder match. His match with Haas vs Tajiri/Eddie is a classic in my book because of the Total Nonstop Action, (no pun intended) and just the way he looked comfortable doing what he did. Neither HBK nor Shelton have won a ladder match (to my knowledge,) but Shelton has always upped the ante every year at Wrestlemania. I hope he wins this year!

 

[Criss]

I say HBK is
He has been in awesome ladder matches and was in the first. And Benjamin just do stunts in MITB. So HBK

BUT as many has said, The Hardys are pretty much who made the ladder matches what they are. And Jeff has always done a stunt on every Ladder match where Benjamin is only MITB
So between the 2, HBK

 

[ScreaminNormanSmiley]

i have never understood y people always consider hbk the innovator of the ladder match. sure his match against razor ramon was great but he wasnt the only person in the match, razor ramon was in it too obviously. hbk wasnt even the winner. im not saying the victor is always the reason a match is good because thats not at all the case. but would somebody please tell me y scott hall never seems to get credit for this match? it takes two stars at the top of there game to put on a classic like they did.

 

[Greenlight13]

Is this genuinely a question? Like... I can't even think of an argument for Shelton. Just use logic for a moment, how can someone that came a decade later be more of an innovator than the guy that made ladder matches a cornerstone of high stakes wrestling matches.

Shawn was the guy who jumped off ladders and hit moves off ladders. He stood at the very top and did a splash and everybody in the wrestling world was gobsmacked that wrestling had evolved from two sweaty, oily men in trunks grappling on the floor for 45 minutes to this. Once Shawn did these things everybody who appeared in a ladder match after him used him as an inspiration. I'd go as far as to say that if Shawn hadn't done the things he did in those two ladder matches then we wouldn't have seen over 40 ladder match variants in the WWE, there wouldn't be a Money in the Bank, there wouldn't be a TLC PPV, Jeff Hardy wouldn't have been quite as popular and Shelton Benjamin might not have even had a solo match at Wrestlemania.

Yes, Shelton's done some crazy things, but to say he's innovated in the match and created more new possibilities than Shawn did is just absurd. There's only so many ways you can go with springboarding onto the ladder or running up a ladder. It pales in comparison to the very concept of jumping off a ladder or executing moves off a ladder, because you then open up the repertoire of every move possible off a ladder.

The work The Hardyz did in their tag team ladder match was merely an extension of the groundwork laid by Shawn. I don't think they innovated the ladder match as much as HBK did, I just think that they and Edge & Christian (who played a 50/50 role in this match if you ask me) showed what you could do if you had 4 guys instead of two. You can argue that these 4 opened the door to the multi-man ladder match and thus are directly responsible for the Money in the Bank match, but there is no ladder match in the first place without Shawn Michaels in my opinion.

When it's all said and done Shelton's going to be "that guy that jumped onto the ladder", the Hardyz are going to be "that team that did all the jumping and did some stuff with ladders" and Shawn Michaels is going to be "one of the best wrestlers of all time, and the inventor of the ladder match". I know he didn't literally invent it, but he made them what they are, Shelton's work with ladders pales in comparison. Hell, I think Kofi Kingston could equal his feats AND he's at least got a career ahead of him.

 

[wbuqed]

All you remember from Shelton is one moment per MITB match he's in and then afterwards he's an afterthought, I don't know if this comparison will make as much sense as I intend it to, but essentially Shelton is to Ladder as Sabu is to chair. Your gonna get a camera worthy spot but then you still need filler before and afterwards. If you gave me HBK or Shelton I'd go with HBK, his ladder related matches have been more interesting bell to bell than Shelton's. However if you made it open ended I'd have to go with Edge. Some people are saying Edge...and Christian and I'll give Christian his due...these guys were amazing together in Ladder matches but over Edge's career he's been able to reinvent himself in ladder matches. The first solo TLC match which on paper didn't seem like a great idea at first blush with Cena but Edge's consistently great performance made it look great. Also one of my favorite matches of 2009, the ladder match vs Jeff Hardy. Once again 10/10 work with such unbelievably innovative offense that he gave and took.

 

[NashSox09]

someone earlier mentioned oh wow moments....i think if anyone can be a great innovator for ladder matches...that person is john morrison. I sometimes think ive seen it all but he makes some great innovations for matches. Anyone remember the moonsault of the top rope with the ladder???

anyways if i had to choose, id say shawn is the innovator but the hardys will be the greatest when it comes to ladder matches.

 

[XgringolocoX]

I'd have to go with HBK. I think HBK has done more in ladder matches than Shelton. WHile Shelton might have done bigger spots, that one spot doens't add up to being an innovator of the ladder match.

 

[Undying777]

I am surprised no one has mentioned Chris Jericho yet. He was in some of the most memorable ladder matches. IMO, he is another innovator of the ladder match.

I think that their is other superstars who can be nominated as innovators of the ladder match. The Hardy Boys, Edge and Christian, and Kofi. Yes I said Kofi. We only have seen him in one ladder match. (MITB) and IMO he stole the show.

But between Michaels and Shelton, i will brake it down like this.....

Shawn Michaels WAS in the first WWF/WWE ladder match along with Razor. And like so many of you have pointed out, he WAS one of the first to use the ladder as a weapon. Not to take any of that away from Shawn but, WOW BIG DEAL!! ANY BODY CAN DO THAT! Inventive but not Innovative!

Shelton IS arguably between the two. the MOST Innovative of the ladder match. In resent years Shelton has done some really innovative moves that we have never seen any superstar do with and on a ladder. Have you ever seen any other WWE superstar jump off the ropes onto the ladder? Or run full speed up the rungs of the ladder? Those my friends are innovative moves.

Michaels and Razor put the ladder match on the map, but IMO Shelton is more innovative in the ladder match then Michaels.

 

[drobs85]

Like someone already said, Michaels didn't even win the match with Ramon, not to forget Ramon had an equal share of greatness in the match as well. Also Shelton Benjamin has appeared in more ladder matches than shawn michaels. Apparently if michaels was so great in ladder matches he would've appeared in more than 3 of them. So apparently wwe is high on Benjamin and ladders or they wouldn't keep putting him in there. And in case people are forgetting Benjamin was just in a pretty damn good one on one ladder match people. But i still have to with the Hardys and edge & christian, simply because they have been in as many as Benjamin, because they did it as a team, and because they were with wwe longer.

 

[SickJames]

More moments doesnt mean innovator imo. Shawn made the first extremely interesting Ladder match at WM 10 and topped that at SummerSlam later that year

Those two matches alone with Razor Ramon tops Sheltons moves though they are good the most he did is fall through a ladder at two seperate Manias so he cant be put over HBK since he does one big spot and is out half the match on most cards


Anyway Shawn most definately!

 

[ted sheckler]

Without a doubt Shawn Michaels.. He put the ladder match on the map and put the match itself over. Shelton is very athletic but there is a huge difference between a guy who can put on a 5 star classic of all time with a ladder like HBK and someone like Shelton who hits some cool spots.

 

[CH David]

As Shelton's number one fan, obviously I'll pick Shelton. I love HBK to death but Shelton truly reinvented the concept of a ladder match. His match with Haas vs Tajiri/Eddie is a classic in my book because of the Total Nonstop Action, (no pun intended) and just the way he looked comfortable doing what he did. Neither HBK nor Shelton have won a ladder match (to my knowledge,) but Shelton has always upped the ante every year at Wrestlemania. I hope he wins this year!

You need to brush up on your knowledge there Mama Benjamin. HBK beat Razor Ramon at Summerslam in '95. Shelton hasn't innovated anything. So he has some nice flips or spots off ladders. Big deal. Shawn was actually the one to help make it popular in the WWE, along with Bret Hart when it was introduced, in the WWE of course, on Superstars of Wrestling.

HBK? Early innovator, but not the most. Benjamin? Most recent innovator, but still not the most. Hardyz? Nope again, they were innovative, but as much as Edge and Christian. They're the ones. Re-watch all of those TLC and ladder matches. They're the ones.

I said it in my previous post, you need an opponent to tango. Shawn had Bret Hart and Razor Ramon in his first three. If you want to say that Edge and Christian innovated it, you need to keep the Hardy Boyz in the same sentence. If Edge and Christian went up against, say The New Age Outlaws, would it have been as innovative? Well, we won't know, but I highly doubt it. The Hardys, E&C, and the Dudleys all helped innovate tag team ladder matches.

Shelton hasn't innovated anything. He does some nice flips, I guess. I didn't even remember he was in the first two MITB ladder matches, and he hasn't impressed me in the his last two either. Seriously this isn't a debate. Shawn Michaels all the way, with help from Bret Hart and Razor Ramon.

 

[Ferbian]

If I have to choose between the two of them, I'd have to go with Shawn Michaels. What has Shelton brought to the table that is new? From where I sit, he hasn't innovated a damn thing.

I completely agree with you CH David.
Shawn Michaels has definitely innovated the ladder match, he's been in numerous, not the most but numerous, and each one of them is memorable, and I just can't put Shelton among the innovators, hell I wouldn't even put him in the top 5, solely because I think the works between the Hardy's and E&C has done much more to make the ladder match meaningful alongside Shawn Michaels.
Cause personally I haven't seen Shelton do a thing that Jeff, Edge, Christian or Matt didn't do first, the massive dive Shelton did at Wrestlemania 25, been done by Jeff at Wrestlemania 16, just no tables, and Edge's spearing Jeff Hardy off a ladder (can't remember when it was, but the memory certainly stuck) all those things makes E&C and The Hardy's the true innovators of the ladder matches, but since that's not a choice, my choice is as following: Shawn Michaels.