Impact Wrestling vs. TNA - Change in Style of Company

[Shadows Over Hell]

After the rumor that Lockdown might only have a few Steel Cage Matches, I thought it would be necessary to detail the transition TNA has made over the past few years. This transition would take a few years but it would turn the company completely upside down.

Let's all be realistic, the product that we see today is not the one many of us were watching a few years ago. The ring has changed, management has changed, the look has changed, and a number of concepts have either been changed or just dropped. This is not the same TNA we were watching in 2007 and 2008.

The shift in the company really began in the Summer of 2009. When Jeff Jarrett was involved in an affair with Karen Angle which forced Dixie Carter to send him home. Dixie Carter ended up releasing a number of backstage personnel close to Jeff. It was at this moment that she began looking elsewhere for a momentum boost.

Only a few months after Jarrett was relieved of his duty, did TNA announce that they were bringing on Hulk Hogan and Eric Bischoff. While Vince Russo (a Jarrett ally) was booking for a few months, it was just a clock ticking away.

Hogan and Bischoff made a number of changes within the company. The Six Sided Ring was eliminated in favor of the traditional ring. A number of TNA concept matches such as King of the Mountain, Steel Asylum and Feast or Fired were scrapped. The X Division (known for its "no limit" slogan) was given a weight limit and made into a modern day cruiserweight division.

With that said, a number of different ideas came to fruition. Reality TV came into play with Reaction and is still heavily featured on today's programming with British Bootcamp, Gutcheck, the "last week on IMPACT" opening and the well-known camera style. Along with that came some new concepts such as the Bound For Glory Series, which focused on the sport element of the product. TNA also created Open Fight Night, Championship Thursday and the Gutcheck Challenge last year.

TNA has a major overhaul in the look department as well. TNA IMPACT (TNA's Thursday show) became IMPACT Wrestling as the show went from red to blue. There seems to be a movement to change the company's name to IMPACT Wrestling but Dixie Carter is reluctant. The IMPACT Wrestling name change is truly symbolic however in how much the company has changed over the past few years.

One of the biggest changes was in the creative department. Vince Russo (known for his crash TV style show) was out while Bruce Prichard was hired. The Prichard product was much more toned down than the product that Russo offered. It also focused more on the in-ring aspect and progressed storylines at a much slower pace. The good news is that Prichard also focused on developing homegrown stars and had long-term storylines always in play.

This brings us to 2013 with the two major announcements of the change in venues and the change in PPV strategy. The IMPACT Zone, a symbol of the TNA product will be getting their last shows in March when TNA goes on the road forever. Along with that, TNA completely changed their PPV schedule only to focus on four major ones a year. They will also have seven taped specials that cost 15$ apiece.

It is the "One Night Only" specials that the fans of the old TNA will appreciate as many of the lost concepts will be making a return. They only happen a few times a year though. Below is a list of the major differences in the two products.


TNA

MANAGEMENT - Jeff Jarrett, Dutch Mantel, Vince Russo

CREATIVE TEAM - Vince Russo, Matt Conway, Jeff Jarrett, Dutch Mantel

CREATIVE STRATEGY - Crash TV focusing on weekly ratings and constant surprises.

IMPACT LOCATION - IMPACT Zone in Orlando, FL

PPV STRATEGY - 12 monthly PPVs a year at 35-40 dollars a pop.

RING - Six Sided Ring

LOCKDOWN - Every match takes place in the Six Sides of Steel.

TAG TEAM DIVISION - Heavy focus on tag team action with numerous legitimate tag teams.

X DIVISION - “Not about weight limits but no limits.” Concentration on daredevil style action. Deep roster.

KNOCKOUTS DIVISION - Heavy focus on in-ring action with deep and diverse roster. Heavily featured.

SPECIALTY CONCEPT - King of the Mountain, Feast or Fired, Elevation X, Ultimate X, Lethal Lockdown, Steel Asylum etc.




IMPACT WRESTLING

MANAGEMENT - Dixie Carter, Bruce Prichard, Eric Bischoff, Hulk Hogan

CREATIVE TEAM - Bruce Prichard, Dave Lagana, Matt Conway

CREATIVE STRATEGY - Long-term booking; Heavy elements of Reality TV.

IMPACT LOCATION - Road Shows around the World

PPV STRATEGY - 4 major (more expensive PPVs) and 7 Taped PPVs for 15$

RING - Standard Four Sided Ring

LOCKDOWN - Only World Title and Lethal Lockdown take place in Steel Cage.

TAG TEAM DIVISION - Less focus on tag team division. Emphasis on makeshift tag teams.

X DIVISION - Modern-day Cruiserweight Division. Smaller roster. 225 pound weight limit.

KNOCKOUTS DIVISION - Focus on smaller number of Knockouts. Featured less.

SPECIALTY CONCEPT - Ultimate X, Lethal Lockdown, BFG Series, Open Fight Night, Championship Thursday, Gutcheck Challenge.

What is your opinion of the changes in the company? Did you prefer the product a few years ago or do you prefer today's product? Sound off below!

Hell Yeah...

 

[GameOver]

Personally i prefered it the way it was in the begining.
Six Sided Ring, World Cups, Stables galore, emphasis on the XDivision style, no need for flashy storylines tho it probably had lots and ECW style production values it was just gritty and in your face, since then it's gone backwards but has expanded to outside of the Nth US markets

Can't stand gimmick PPV's they are pointless when every match is the same type and in the case of WWE the two main events are identical other then who's involved. Non themed PPV's are much more open to what could take place.

and i don't agree with there 4 Big PPV's 8 smaller ones since the small ones are pretaped months in advance how the hell do the talent know how to react to what they would be feeling 3-6 months from that point not to mention obviously someone will leak tapes of the PPV's well b4 they are due to air so they wont get any sales anyway. Shoulda just cut it back to one every 2 months and drop the price if need be tho PPV prices (atleast in Australia) are cheaper then WWE and UFC already anyway and still they don't get many buys so thats not the issue IMO Its the content and the way it's presented thats the issue.

as for expanding to touring Impact well thats good, whether they fail miserably or not they have to try and sticking in the one place where i assume noone pays to watch it and the park takes a cut aswell is bad bad bad. That place looked dismal, tho better then when WCW hosted WCW Worldwide in the same building now that arena was even smaller lol but what happened when WCW left there and started touring? they hit the big time. Well ok it helped having all the WWF leftovers jumping ship and Hogan turning heel.

 

[Da Big Champ]

Gotta admit the old TNA was much better for this viewer. It was more about good and fun wrestling. You didn't have the old timers looking for a quick paycheck you had guys that wanted to be there. The shows were more fun to watch and the gimmick matches were fun because you never knew who could win. The roster was also more fun. I enjoyed Jay Lethal and Petey Williams and to an extent Suicide and Curry Man and Shark Boy and Scott Steiner arguing with people for no reason and then just shouting for no reason. The titles meant more aswell instead because there were long reigns and the champions were credible instead of having a guy like Ken Anderson winning and making the world title look bad.
Say what you will about the old TNA but they new how to keep me more interested in the product that IW does. I could happily watch TNA Impact every day of the week which here in the UK was an option but with IW I can't remember my last full episode.

 

[SpecialFNK]

I've only watched TNA since 2010 when Hogan/Bischoff came in, so can't comment on what went on before then.

changing the ring was necessary. how many other professional wrestling companies use a ring other than the standard 4? professional wrestling is a ring with 4 sides.

I don't see any reason to change the name of the company. Impact Wrestling is the name of the TV show. the same as RAW and Smackdown are the names of the shows with the company WWE.
IMO changing the name to Impact Wrestling would be like taking 2 to 3 steps back, and it would take a long while to get back to where they are now with a recognizable name.

 

[Spinebreaker]

Both versions have their good points. I'm a way bigger TNA fan than WWE. The main reason is that when TNA first emerged in the UK, WWE was ATROCIOUS in every way.

The X-division went from an outstanding and exceptional roster that month in, month out put on the highlight match of each PPV, the changes DESTROYED that, and I think it's too late for it to recover.

6-sided ring.

I could go on about this ALL day. In bullshit business hargon, what TNA had was a USP. A Unique Selling Point. Something no-one else had and no-one else used.

Hogan decided he didn't like it, and changed it, even though he wouldn't be wrestling in it.

I'm no Hogan hater. He's a legend, wrestling would not exist in the way it does today without him. He gets ratings, he brings a massive reputation and IMHO he has a role to play in TNA. However, removing the 6 sides was one of the most brain-dead decisions in the history of wrestling. And following it up with a promo that insults, patronises and belittles your audience is ridiculous.

Imagine if 'reese's' changed the peanut butter to mustard and then held a press conference and said "We know you like peanut butter, but we don't think you should. this is better." NO sane businessman would EVER do that. The company has a USP, exploit it.

Hogan cost TNA viewers with that decision, and that promo. the 6 sided ring stood out, casual viewers would stop and say "WTF, what's that?", and for some, those few moments could be enough.

Lethal Lockdow, Ultimate X... these matches are better in 6 sides. they have more space in the ring. Since the change to 4 sides, huge chunks of big matches like those are just several people motionless on the floor, just so there's room for a few spots.

SpecialFNK : just because TNA'S ring was different, doesn't make it bad, and doesn't mean they should have fallen in line like everyone else. Apocalyptica play metal on cello's, it works, they aren't wrong for being different to everyone else. Cezanne painted DELIBERATELY differently to everyone else and he became incredibly well regarded. Watchmen was different to every other superhero story, it's a classic BECAUSE of that.

If you have something that sets you aside from everyone else, that should be used, marketed, exploited. Not shut away and ignored.

 

[SamHXCUK]

I hate the argument about the 6 side ring.

The 6 Side Ring made TNA Unique. I know workers had issues with it but it always was a great visual and I found in terms of X Division Matches it made the pace quicker.

The 4 sides makes them look like any other company in the world.

TNA used to be about originality, now its the Attitude Era in 2013

 

[DiscipleOfTheRKO]

I see the comparisons and contrasts and i can say a few things to really to split this up. First lets look at the 02 brand.

New Brand, Something different,
six sided ring, plus PPV ONLY

Then you have a following where they landed a TV spot and went to FSN and had some awesome slot time, they were something everyone can enjoy and it had a vibe that was untouchable, and more. The 'cast of characters' were far beyond we could imagined. along the way they had old guys added to the builds of in grown talent like aj styles, they had groups like new church and knockouts who stood out like Alexis Laure.

Over the course of time TNA went from Great to Good, to confusion and complex, when hogan first came it was a disaster i didn't care i watched and tuned in to see if a miracle would happen then after a while changes happened again, but there was still quality with match types, daniels and joe, then you had talents in cage and abyss and booker t and the main event mafia was standing and there were surprises like macho man and ddp and so much more.

lastly; when "everything changed" again..... dixie was the focal point behind, JJ was not seen he was doing his business backstage. Dixie was the reason STING decided to help the company function and gain fans and gain money and ideas. Between dixie and sting the company rose and highest of highs, but there was a missing element to because the 6 sided ring was gone but they kept the 4 sides leaving it "generic" but they still had major upsides. when mick came in he did some things and plowed the road, and he brought in "Impact Wrestling" to the table... and they ran with it and now hes gone and they still follow through. for the last few months TNA "Impact Wrestling" has been top notch, awesome and worth the watch, and so they came up with divides like aces and eights faction which is awesome they have great talents like Aries and Roode and Storm, Angle, Sting, Joe, with OVW talents on the way, you got personalities like Kaz and Daniels and you got "something for everyone" leading to the knockouts holding the deck of cards as "leaders" to a division that is a must see and unlike divas knockouts have better matches and exposure.

10 years strong the idea was brought in for a hall of fame although some are not flattered because its only 10 years but it worked the idea stood out and the wild card was sting he had a right to be first---nobody else fit to be first after everything he did for the company he deserved it and yes they may have 1 a year but the fact is WWE HOF is completely garbage and has no credibility {with all do respect to those deserving in such honors of being included}. This is the full frontal year the company takes the business by storm and they take names. This is a must see company that gives and fills a void wcw left. It is a grand company that unless someone "merges with panda energy and doesn't like wrestling" they will be around for 25+ years the only thing really holding this back is sting sting is 53 going to 54 he can't live forever and so the company must bind that and find new stars to intertwine with the rotation of the generation. The more "discourages and dislikes" from wwe roster talents being released or ignored the more chances for them to be "accepted" by impact wrestling and Dixie Carter creating a "open land where everyone can participate"

Aces and Eights feels like the nwo but 'controlled' at this point, adding members left and right for those who don't get enough air time or stink at baby faces and needing to be 'hated' to get over. I believe this plan is working well and it can only get better but their has to be plots and more to really engage. When it's all said and done TNA is the "IT FACTOR" where WCW is missing and we still love wcw but TNA is here bringing the best it can and the more talents leave wwe the more TNA can swoop up and sign and use happily. TNA is where were going, and TNA is where were gonna be for the next 25+ years with so many things to enjoy, and more it is "what is all about---WRESTLING"

So In conclusion. Both companies are epic at times and sometimes are not but at the end of the day we have wrestling to enjoy and debate for. Leaving surprises on the table for every week. I LOVE PRO WRESTLING "wherever it maybe" but i am also a pro wrestling fan and i am NOT or never will be AFRAID to believe it, and admit it.

WCW 4 LIFE
STING 4 LIFE
Survey says

"One More for the good guys"

 

[He's Phenomenal]

Are some posters seriously trying to suggest that people watch a wrestling show based on how many sides the ring has? Crazy notion! I'll be honest I never even noticed it had gone during the first PPV with a 4 sided ring, it was only when Hogan/Bischoff mentioned it that I noticed. Plus I never started watching TNA based on the fact they had a 6 sided ring, who did? I started watching because I saw the likes of Kevin Nash, Sting and Kurt Angle on my TV.

I've been watching TNA since 2008 and I don't think even the biggest Hogan hater can honestly say the changes haven't been for the better of the company. Watch a show from pre 2010 and then watch iMPACT on Thursday and see how much more 'major league' the promotion now looks. The main thing that has pleased me most is the lack of focus on the Knockouts. They used to have numerous segments but at least TNA now have the decency to limit them to one maybe two segments a show, which means I only have to skip one or two segments per show. The biggest dissapointment is easily the lack of tag teams these days. All though TNA's only real stand out tag teams were Team 3D, Beer Money and Motor City Machine Guns - it was still much better than just Bad Influence.

Whether the actual product is better or worse now is obviously subjective, but there is absolutely no denying the company is now in a far better position. If you was to show a wrestling novice the best possible X-Division match you could find and then show Hogan walking down the ramp on Thursday and then ask them which is the bigger wrestling promotion, there's only going to be one answer. My personal favourite year of watching TNA was 2010. I would always be on the wrestling forums, staying up till stupid o'clock (I live in England) watching iMPACT live and avoiding spoilers at all costs and having mark out moments most weeks. Now, I still watch TNA, but haven't stayed up to watch a live show and rarely mark out anymore. Hogan turning up to walk Brooke down the aisle is the only time I can think of recently.

Overall TNA 2013 is a much bigger promotion than it's ever been, no doubt about that.

Edit: I didn't really answer whether I preferred today's product over the old TNA, just mentioned my favourite year. IMO TNA 2013 > TNA 2008 but TNA 2010 > than TNA 2013.

 

[Spinebreaker]

Are some posters seriously trying to suggest that people watch a wrestling show based on how many sides the ring has? .

No. No-one here is suggesting that at all. BUT if you offer something unique, distinctive and original, stick to it. It's basic business practice.

I'll be honest I never even noticed it had gone during the first PPV with a 4 sided ring, it was only when Hogan/Bischoff mentioned it that I noticed.

Really? I find that phenomenal. You were looking directly at something that had completely changed shape in less than a week and didn't notice?

It's one small factor, but it set TNA apart. In any other business in THE WORLD things that set you apart are cherished and appreciated.

 

[Trill Co$by]

I see the comparisons and contrasts and i can say a few things to really to split this up. First lets look at the 02 brand.

New Brand, Something different,
six sided ring, plus PPV ONLY

In 02 their ring was 4 side. In fact, they followed traditional black and yellow ropes with a dark grey mat and their barricade was truly a medal barricade. And they had a building MUCH greater than the Impact Zone with the Asylum.

Then you have a following where they landed a TV spot and went to FSN and had some awesome slot time, they were something everyone can enjoy and it had a vibe that was untouchable, and more. The 'cast of characters' were far beyond we could imagined. along the way they had old guys added to the builds of in grown talent like aj styles, they had groups like new church and knockouts who stood out like Alexis Laure.

Dude, seriously, where are you getting your information from? When TNA went to FSN that's when they had debuted the Six Sided Ring. Mickie James was already gone, and CM Punk (a Gathering member) was carrying ROH on his back before leaving to OVW. New Church had also disbanded as far back as around 2003. In fact, the only teams around at the time were Team Canada, AMW, The Naturals, LAX, and Triple X.

Over the course of time TNA went from Great to Good, to confusion and complex, when hogan first came it was a disaster i didn't care i watched and tuned in to see if a miracle would happen then after a while changes happened again, but there was still quality with match types, daniels and joe, then you had talents in cage and abyss and booker t and the main event mafia was standing and there were surprises like macho man and ddp and so much more.

Booker T was gone by the time Hogan came to TNA, and MEM was already done and over with. Macho Man and DDP were also already gone from TNA. Christian was in ECW carrying the ECW title. Again, I ask... where do you get your information from?

lastly; when "everything changed" again..... dixie was the focal point behind, JJ was not seen he was doing his business backstage. Dixie was the reason STING decided to help the company function and gain fans and gain money and ideas. Between dixie and sting the company rose and highest of highs, but there was a missing element to because the 6 sided ring was gone but they kept the 4 sides leaving it "generic" but they still had major upsides. when mick came in he did some things and plowed the road, and he brought in "Impact Wrestling" to the table... and they ran with it and now hes gone and they still follow through. for the last few months TNA "Impact Wrestling" has been top notch, awesome and worth the watch, and so they came up with divides like aces and eights faction which is awesome they have great talents like Aries and Roode and Storm, Angle, Sting, Joe, with OVW talents on the way, you got personalities like Kaz and Daniels and you got "something for everyone" leading to the knockouts holding the deck of cards as "leaders" to a division that is a must see and unlike divas knockouts have better matches and exposure.

Oh my god seriously... use Wikipedia or something. Sting had already BEEN TNA World Champion, let alone "Entering because of Dixie". Bullshit. Sting was feuding with Jarrett for nearly 2 years from 2006 all the way until 2008. He even beat Christian Cage to win the NWA World title when they still had that belt.

10 years strong the idea was brought in for a hall of fame although some are not flattered because its only 10 years but it worked the idea stood out and the wild card was sting he had a right to be first---nobody else fit to be first after everything he did for the company he deserved it and yes they may have 1 a year but the fact is WWE HOF is completely garbage and has no credibility {with all do respect to those deserving in such honors of being included}. This is the full frontal year the company takes the business by storm and they take names. This is a must see company that gives and fills a void wcw left. It is a grand company that unless someone "merges with panda energy and doesn't like wrestling" they will be around for 25+ years the only thing really holding this back is sting sting is 53 going to 54 he can't live forever and so the company must bind that and find new stars to intertwine with the rotation of the generation. The more "discourages and dislikes" from wwe roster talents being released or ignored the more chances for them to be "accepted" by impact wrestling and Dixie Carter creating a "open land where everyone can participate"

I guess you missed the part where Kurt Angle and Samoa Joe feuded for the World title, or AJ Styles leading Fourtune as World champion with RIC FUCKING FLAIR as his manager. Or maybe you missed the Machine Guns and Beer Money tearing up the tag division. Maybe you even missed the part where Shark Boy, Curry Man, and Super Eric were being more entertaining than anything in WWE at the time. Sting has done a lot for TNA, but carry it, he has not.

Aces and Eights feels like the nwo but 'controlled' at this point, adding members left and right for those who don't get enough air time or stink at baby faces and needing to be 'hated' to get over. I believe this plan is working well and it can only get better but their has to be plots and more to really engage. When it's all said and done TNA is the "IT FACTOR" where WCW is missing and we still love wcw but TNA is here bringing the best it can and the more talents leave wwe the more TNA can swoop up and sign and use happily. TNA is where were going, and TNA is where were gonna be for the next 25+ years with so many things to enjoy, and more it is "what is all about---WRESTLING"

TNA is nothing like WCW other than the fact that they're a wrestling company. TNA does stuff that makes sense with an improving wrestling world. WCW did stupid shit like making the ring spin just because "WWF didn't have it".

So In conclusion. Both companies are epic at times and sometimes are not but at the end of the day we have wrestling to enjoy and debate for. Leaving surprises on the table for every week. I LOVE PRO WRESTLING "wherever it maybe" but i am also a pro wrestling fan and i am NOT or never will be AFRAID to believe it, and admit it.

WCW 4 LIFE
STING 4 LIFE
Survey says

"One More for the good guys"

Your survey sucks. TNA/Impact Wrestling is a company that's growing, and that is very true, but it's nothing like WCW. Plus, TNA is actually being a better company than WWE right now as they continue to push YOUNGER talent as opposed to just making older guys do all the work. I mean Aries & Roode as tag champions, James Storm as probably the most over TNA face, Daniels & Kazarian without a doubt a great tag team, and even Aces & Eights where Devon and Taz are the only ones who could even be considered "past their prime". Seriously, TNA is growing and it's getting big.


---

As for my opinion on TNA changes, I'm a bit half and half. Some of the things I don't agree with. Like for instance, getting rid of classic TNA concept matches. King of the Mountain, Feast or Fired, X-Cape, World X Cup, and even Elevation X were pretty great matches. I loved how the rivalries continued to grow when they were coming up.

Another thing I don't like is the lack of emphasis on some things.

.. And no, tag teams is not one of them. I don't know what the fuck people keep complaining about "Make Shift" tag teams for. Beer Money was a damn makeshift, and it's one of the best of all time in TNA. AMW was definitely a makeshift. James Storm and Chris Harris literally beat the SHIT out of each other for around 30 minutes throughout multiple NWA territories and were FORCED to come together. They didn't even look back after that. Daniels and Kazarian are a make shift and they work. And right now, Aries and Bobby Roode could possibly be the best thing in a long time for TNA's tag division. If anything, I say bring on MORE make shift tag teams...

What is one of the things I miss having emphasis on is the story telling. With the new 4 ppv format, I think TNA can pick up big with their story development but seriously I hope that TNA doesn't waste it by spending 85% of the time on Aces and Eights. I want to see some new X-Division star rise up and become the next big star in TNA... I want to see more real stars going for the World title and maybe one "up and comer" once every few months. I'd say Angle, Hardy, Sting, Bully Ray, Abyss, Styles, and a returning Rhino would make a great Main Event scene... with RVD thrown in the mix. And a up and comer like maybe Wes Briscoe. To me, it makes the journey to the world title that much more intense for the rookie.

But again, that's just my opinion.

 

[wrestlingfan]

The X-Division in 09 was way better

Joe
Daniels
Black Machismo
Creed
Homicide
Suicide
Bashir
Kiyoshi
Sabin
Shelley
Pope
Amazing Red

If they kept those talents and added Kendrick, Moore, Doug Williams, & Kaz it wouldn't been a great mid-card division.

 

[puppetmaster 316]

I started watching TNA around 2006-07(Around the time Angle went there).There was just something unique about it.The style,The ring,The talent.It just felt different back then.It wasn't WWE V2.It had main event talents like AJ Styles,Samoa Joe etc.You had tag teams like MCMG.Beer Money,Team 3D,The British Invasion.You had a perfect mid card title which had talents like Petey Williams and Jay Lethal.The Knockouts were awesome with Gail Kim and Awesome Kong.There were only a few ex-WWE guys like Christian,Angle and Nash.The Main Event Mafia was perfect.The story was good and even though TNA didn't put their talent over rather than the ex-WWE guys,It was way better than Aces and Eights.
But when Jarret left,The unique ideas he had for his company were crashed and smashed.Carter signed Hogan and Bischof.These two guys single handedly destroyed half the cred TNA had.They signed ex-WWE guys like Hardy,RVD Taz etc.They killed X-Division by letting go of Lethal,Amazing Red,The Suicide gimmick.They changed the camera style into something really stupid.They changed the gimmick matches like King of the Mountain,Feast or Fired(even though it was a copy of money in the bank)Steel Asylum,Three degree of pain and Monster Ball matches.In other words they changed TNA into WWE V2.
Although all their decisions weren't bad.Lesser PPV's and taking Impact on the road are two of the better decisions Hulk and the crew have made.
All in all,TNA has changed for worse.I still watch the product but i don't like it.I wish TNA could go back to it's roots.
You know what is the first step to do that?Fire Hulk Hogan and Eric Bischoff

 

[multiverseman.com]

TNA's main event scene was never better than when they had Joe vs. Angle. The rest was meh, but those were TNA's two best buyrates. They should've put the strap on Joe right then. Had they done that and implemented the changes they've made in the undercard since, they'd be doing 2.0 at least by now.

By the way: Aces & Eights needs to end ASAP. It's killing them.

 

[D-Man]

We do not appreciate plagiarism. Stop copying columns from other websites and pasting them here.

Thread closed.