If Tommy Dreamer always loses and Kurt Angle will always win, then why watch?

[donfryeismyhero]

Well for the longest time in MMA, long time MMA fans believed that Fedor would never lose (his record up until this past June was I think 30-1 with that 1 lose being a doctors stoppage because of a bad cut) yet we still wanted to see him fight because he is an exciting fighter. Then he loses to a guy that the UFC cut from their roster in Werdum & it shocked the MMA world. Anything can happen in pro wrestling just like MMA which is why we still watch even though we know that Cena will more than likely win every time. I never thought in a billion years that Sheamus was gonna beat SuperCena @ TLC last year but boy was I shocked when he did.

 

[Carpathian Florist]

Ok, now THIS is a good reply. However, I see a few flaws.

First of all, I highly doubt that the casual wrestling fan views matches without caring about the outcome. And my point is that if this outcome is always the same, why bother watching it? Adding to this thought, anyone that views a match to see "who gets put over" or "how technical the match turns out to be" is obviously a smark and not a casual fan.

Secondly, your comparison to the Titanic is apples and oranges. It's a historical fact versus what is portrayed to be a sporting competition. Two different things.

it's apples and oranges.

Well perhaps the Titanic was a poor example then, just happened to be the first that came to mind, but what about The Sixth Sense? The "spoiler" of that definitely leaked to a great deal of people in the area I live in, but they still watched the film.

As for the casual fan, how would they know that Kurt Angle would always win? They wouldn't think that "oh Kurt is one of their biggest stars who they can't afford to retire just yet" or something. Although Kurt doesn't look excessively old, to a casual fan it could be obvious that he is older than stars like AJ Styles or Desmond Wolfe, perhaps with a casual fan they really could believe he's an older star on his last legs giving it his everything to try and win the title.

Or how would they know that Tommy Dreamer would always lose? If they're just casual fans and not smarks, they're not likely to know that he is more interested in giving back to the business and putting over talent, therefore in their minds they could think "wow this guy really takes a beating, but he tries hard, I hope one day he'll win" and then we get into the whole "ultimate underdog" situation where they think "ok this guy keeps losing, but he keeps coming back too, I can respect that determination".

There are a number of scenarios a casual fan could buy into, that smarks couldn't because of how much they know.

 

[Ferbian]

I had a feeling someone would misunderstand my point. This thread is not for the purpose of your everyday match that consists of Yoshi Tatsu versus John Cena on Raw. I'm speaking about taking a high-profile storyline and trying to make it interesting while the rest of the world knows damn well how it's going to turn out. No one is going to watch a high-profile match where they already know who the winner is going to be.

Very well, however it could still very well be transfered onto your regular WWE feuds at times. Remember Batista vs John Cena?

I'm not gonna argue anything against the fact that the EV2.0 thing, or Tommy Dreamer's involvement in anything at all is gonna make sense. Because quite frankly, he's shit. Tommy Dreamer's involvement in anything but putting over talent, especially at this very age is laughable. And that goes for a lot of talent really.

Of course at times though there's some interest in the whole thing. Some likes to watch a high profile feud where we know who the winner is, because we're also guaranteed some damn great matches. Be it a single match, a 3 months feud or anything else, there's still guaranteed a great match if we know they can perform.

You mention Kurt Angle always winning, well we always know that Kurt Angle delivers. It's practically the same explanation with Shawn Michaels, we know he's gonna lose the majority of times to make the opponent look good, but god damn do we watch it? Hell yeah we do. Because Shawn delivers every time.

And that could be applied to any talent, Tommy Dreamer might have been able to do a thing or two at one point or another, hell I'll admit I didn't exactly mind the triple thread extreme rules match where Tommy Dreamer actually won a match. It wasn't predictable I get that, but it showed that Tommy can perform, just on a very rare basic.

So, it still comes down to the whole "Yeah, so we know that they can put on one hell of a match, that's why we watch".

 

[D-Man]

I'll agree that Dreamer is famous for being a jobber, but at the same time he has had the (albeit rare and succinct) victorious runs as well. Given the current storyline, I can see TD come out with a transitional TV Title run because lets face it - AJ sure as hell doesn't need it. As such, I don't feel that he is guaranteed to lose every match, particularly with TNAs parchant for dodgy finishes.

Dreamer has always been known to lose matches. He said it himself... he never wanted to win the ECW title or win any matches. He just enjoyed wrestling and putting other over. That's admirable. But when his opponents are constantly facing a LOSER, how is he putting anyone over? That's like saying we're going to push Alberto Del Rio on Smackdown so let's have him face Funaki. It makes no sense for someone to act like they have a legacy in the sport when all they'll ever be known for is losing high-profile matches. And if we know he's going to lose every match that he's in, why would we watch?

Besides, Tommy has NO business winning the TNA TV title. What has he done to earn it? The guy can't even win matches!!

I'm getting really tired of repeating myself...

 

[Kenny Powers]

I want to add to D Man and IDR that Tommy Dreamer didn't win his match at Hardcore Justice. Raven won after handcuffing him and giving him the Raven effect DDT on the chair. As far as Tommy Dreamer losing and Kurt Angle winning, I think that anything can happen between the two. These two generally win and lose, but they could easily win matches. I wouldn't want to see Dreamer beat AJ Styles or anyone in Fourtune for that matter, but I wouldn't be surprised if he beat someone like Kaz or Williams.

The whole Angle retirement storyline is a bit predictable, but this one may throw us for a loop. Angle has said that he is around the age to retire from in ring competition, but still be involved in the wrestling business. Maybe Angle loses No Surrender or Bound For Glory. It may not happen, but a storyline this obvious may actually fool everyone.

Dreamer has made a name for himself for being the underdog that may lose but always comes back with that never say die attitude. A lot of fans respect that. Dreamer may not win the match, but if he puts 110% into a match then fans will be entertained. Nothing is always a guarantee in wrestling. Things change all the time. We may think something is predictable one day, but the next it could change completely.

 

[donfryeismyhero]

I want to add to D Man and IDR that Tommy Dreamer didn't win his match at Hardcore Justice. Raven won after handcuffing him and giving him the Raven effect DDT on the chair. As far as Tommy Dreamer losing and Kurt Angle winning, I think that anything can happen between the two. These two generally win and lose, but they could easily win matches. I wouldn't want to see Dreamer beat AJ Styles or anyone in Fourtune for that matter, but I wouldn't be surprised if he beat someone like Kaz or Williams.

The whole Angle retirement storyline is a bit predictable, but this one may throw us for a loop. Angle has said that he is around the age to retire from in ring competition, but still be involved in the wrestling business. Maybe Angle loses No Surrender or Bound For Glory. It may not happen, but a storyline this obvious may actually fool everyone.

Dreamer has made a name for himself for being the underdog that may lose but always comes back with that never say die attitude. A lot of fans respect that. Dreamer may not win the match, but if he puts 110% into a match then fans will be entertained. Nothing is always a guarantee in wrestling. Things change all the time. We may think something is predictable one day, but the next it could change completely.

Very good points right here. It's not about who win's or loses in pro wrestling but how said wrestler wins/loses & how well it fits into the overall story being told. Wrestlers are supposed to be story tellers thats the point of wrestling, to tell a compelling story with their matches & all the other stuff we see every week.

 

[goodlay]

I don't really see how this applies to solely TNA. Look at Taker's WM matches, we know by now Taker isn't going to lose, but are they damn fun to watch? You bet your ass they are. Taker/HBK was one of the most obvious outcomes, but it was still a damn good match. Or even Cena/Batista, their matches at Extreme Rules and Over the Limit obviously had Cena as winning, but they were still entertaining.

As far as the Angle top 10 thing goes, I kind of see it like Taker at Wrestlemania. You know the guy is most likely going to come out on top, but what the fans want to see is how the match unfolds, and for of course the entertainment value. Especially with Kurt, even with these top 10 matches, the result was obvious, but they were still damn entertaining. Like Kenny said too, TNA could swerve us at BFG and have Anderson pull out a cheap win, afterall it's Russo, who loves a swerve more than him? And as far as Dreamer goes, a bit late don't you think? Dreamer has been losing matches his entire career. But do you really think Tommy deserves to go over guys like AJ and the young guys in Fortune? I say hell no.

I know you're talking about the casual fan here, and not the IWC, but still. I still think the casual fan cares more about entertainment value and the actual story than result predictability. If anyone is going to care about result predictability, it's us smarks of the IWC. Like the millions of threads about SuperCena, do you really think a casual fan would be someone to complain about that? No. The casual fans just want to be enthralled in the program and to be entertained by what they are watching.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Dreamer has always been known to lose matches. He said it himself... he never wanted to win the ECW title or win any matches. He just enjoyed wrestling and putting other over. That's admirable. But when his opponents are constantly facing a LOSER, how is he putting anyone over? That's like saying we're going to push Alberto Del Rio on Smackdown so let's have him face Funaki. It makes no sense for someone to act like they have a legacy in the sport when all they'll ever be known for is losing high-profile matches. And if we know he's going to lose every match that he's in, why would we watch?

Besides, Tommy has NO business winning the TNA TV title. What has he done to earn it? The guy can't even win matches!!

I'm getting really tired of repeating myself...

"If Tommy Dreamer always loses, then why watch?" Tommy is the leader of EV2.0, having him continually job will weaken the feud with Fortune - he HAS to win matches, I'd near guarantee a win over Kaz or Williams in the next few weeks. Whether he deserves the TV Belt or not is nothing to do with your thread - you haven't asked if Dreamer deserves to win matches, you've asked why watch when we know he'll lose. In this storyline, I refute that we do know he'll lose every match.

 

[klunderbunker]

What D-Man says makes a lot of sense. Angle's run through the Top 10 was one of the dumbest ideas in a long time as everyone knew he was going to win every time (Pay no attention to the fact that TNA managed to only let him get about halfway before changing their angles AGAIN). There was very little point to watching his matches as the outcomes were going to be the same every time. Did anyone believe Hernandez was going to be the one to retire Angle? It makes for FAR less interesting television because it's a badly written angle. The same thing happened with Flair back in 2008. There was no reason to believe he was ever going to lose until he had a huge match, ie Mania vs. Shawn. Angle is in the tournament and there should be no way they're going to have him retire to Hardy, Anderson or Pope. Granted this is TNA so the most logical angles have no place here so take that with a grain of salt.

As for Dreamer, I agree to a certain extent. For one thing, the guy doesn't belong in the main event scene. He's a name from a promotion that died almost ten year ago that very few people watched. In WWE he was the guy that only the diehard ECW fans cared about because the WWE fans were introduced to him in the Invasion and through Rise and Fall of ECW. It's the same in TNA. Everything is about nostalgia, and just as you would guess, the ratings are plummeting because of it. Did anyone really believe Dreamer would beat AJ in a straight up match? If you do, I'd advise you to stop watching wrestling because you just don't get it. Dreamer in the midcard is bearable, but in the main event: not at all, unless it's at an ECW reunion show, where he jobs also.

 

[CyDeez]

I will watch to see how many times Angle drops him on his head with Germans! lol...

Yeah their truly is no point. Even if Dreamer wasn't notorious for losing, and Angle wasn't on this streak to the title. It STILL would be pointless. Dreamer has no chance to beat a guy like Angle. Not in Dreamer's best ECW and Angle's most green WWE days! Angle still rules his ass!!

Stupid match in general. Dreamer is garbage in the ring and Angle is one of the best EVER!!

Having Dreamer beat him would be like WCW having Kidman beat Hogan!!

Oh wait!! LOL @ WCW! You see how that worked out.

TNA would be ignorant to even put that blemish on Angle's record!!

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

I will watch to see how many times Angle drops him on his head with Germans! lol...

Yeah their truly is no point. Even if Dreamer wasn't notorious for losing, and Angle wasn't on this streak to the title. It STILL would be pointless. Dreamer has no chance to beat a guy like Angle. Not in Dreamer's best ECW and Angle's most green WWE days! Angle still rules his ass!!

Stupid match in general. Dreamer is garbage in the ring and Angle is one of the best EVER!!

Having Dreamer beat him would be like WCW having Kidman beat Hogan!!

Oh wait!! LOL @ WCW! You see how that worked out.

TNA would be ignorant to even put that blemish on Angle's record!!

I think you've misread the thread compadre. It's not about Angle vs Dreamer - it's about whether you're willing to watch bouts involving the two at present because you know Angle'll win and Dreamer'll lose: discuss. However, going with your response, I'd definitely agree - I don't even think that TNA's creative would EVER have Dreamer defeat Angle!

 

[shattered dreams]

OMG... Pahhhhlease...

Apples and oranges, man. Cena is the hero of the WWE. I hear what you're saying, but comparing him to Tommy Dreamer isn't even in the same universe. Cena doesn't ALWAYS win matches and don't make me have to do research and prove it. You know it's true.

Why would I compare Cena to Dreamer? I am comparing wrestlers who have relatively predictable match outcomes and how that effects the enjoyment of such matches. The same thing you were discussing before you realized you were wrong and failed in your tna bashing because of it. Your solution? Randomly change the topic to something pointlessly narrow and berate everyone who responds to the real OP. Seems like a cheap way out to me. If you only wanted to discuss those specific things why is your first paragraph clearly talking about the evil generic case and the second one has wwe examples if we are only talking about TNA? In fact you close with several generic questions in addition to your two tna examples, so how could anyone get the idea we were talking about the general case as well? How about because half of the OP is about it. Considering you wrote that I would assume you knew where people got that idea.

Actually, I would assume that DVD buys and YouTube hits would INCREASE as a result of a predictable match. Who would want to watch it live if they knew who was going to win? They wouldn't. Matter of fact, they'd be like me and try to catch it on YouTube the next day or a DVD down the road that they can rent. How does this make money for TNA? It doesn't.

If someone rents a dvd TNA gets money. No one would buy/rent/go on youtube if it was pointless to watch when they know the outcomes. If they do any of these things it clearly was not pointless to watch. How much money it draws is another question entirely. Once again an attempt to change the subject in the face of adversity. Why would anyone purposely choose to watch on youtube the next day anyway? If you are going to watch anyway why not see in better quality? Wouldn't people going on youtube the next day acually mean knowing the results intrigued them to watch?

Yup, they sure did. And no one knew he'd win them so they shut off their TV's when the matches began and read about the brilliant "storyline advancement" the next day on TNAwrestling.com. Once again, how does this make money for TNA? It doesn't.

Yeah, everyone turned off that match with abyss, that is why it did a 1.28 quarter hour. I imagine if I respond to your how does this make money subject change you will post in caps that I am off topic.

Then why wouldn't they stick in another EV2.0 wrestler? why put AJ Styles, arguably the best wrestler with one of the best win/loss records in TNA, against a guy that ALWAYS LOSES?? Hell, Foley is just as important to EV2.0. So is Raven. So is Sabu. There were many choices as to who could wrestle in that match but they chose the predictable loser? It just makes no sense.

This is why you do not get it. You are basically saying that you predicted dreamer would lose, so it was worthless. The thing is I doubt you predicted abyss would be the reason dreamer loses. They picked the heart and soul of ecw and the face of tna because of the story. If you think that segment was about a win-loss in a singles match then you really do not get it.

With angle there are plenty of reasons to watch a strong in-ring performer in matches where they are likely to win or the loser is clear. Namely what happens inbetween the bells. Maybe you would prefer one of those choose your own adventure books. Just skip to the nex development in the story and nothing inbetween but some people do like the wrestling on a wrestling show. I know, what a crazy idea.

 

[MB1025]

Honestly it is hard to find a sub par Kurt Angle match, so regardless if I had Vince Russo sitting next to me for the next year telling me Kurt was going to win I would still watch him perform because I am a wrestling fan and arguably no one does it better.

As far as Tommy Dreamer goes who really cares about. He is there as a main proponent that will last 2 months. Then he goes to the back never to be seen again.


BTW if the OP is using this as a reason to tune in or not then that means a few years ago WWE television should have been unwatchable because John Cena didn't lose a match for over a year. I am also sure you can put 1 or 2 other people in the same sentence as Cena.