I don't think TNA gets enough credit

[It's Damn Real!]

Oh, you can't be serious. Tell, what has TNA done recently to deserve praise? Where should we begin:

1. They've completely abandoned their stance that they are the alternative to the WWE by trying to do everything that the WWE does, or has done.

So what you are telling me is that everything TNA is doing right now – and I mean everything – is in some way, shape or form a rehashed version of something the WWE/F did at some point in their double-decade long existence? What a crock of shit.

Name me the "Samoan Submission Machine" who seemingly defied the laws of physic in the WWE? Umaga you say? That's funny, I seem to remember Umaga debuting well after Joe, and as the "Samoan Bulldozer" no lesse. Gee, what a coincidence. But nah, TNA must have stolen that! What other reason could there be for Joe's existence as that character? Legitimate development? Fuck that – TNA isn't capable of doing that, right?

Name the time the WWE/F utilized a Top-10 contenders ranking system for any of their belts, let alone the world championship.

Better yet, Tenta, name me the time the WWE did anything that the ECW or WCW or AWA or NWA or any number of other federations before them did.

If the world of pro-wrestling were never allowed to beg, steal or borrow, we'd have no pro-wrestling to speak of right now, so enough with this bullshit about the WWE doing things first. No one does anything first these days. Everything is a rehash. Everything.

2. They've nullified the X Division and the Knockouts, which originally were the best part of the program, into absolute nonsensical television, spare these last two weeks between Doug Williams/ Brian Kendrick

1. The KO division isn't a draw in any sense of the word, so whether or not they nullified it is irrelevant as it itself is irrelevant as it is, but as for the X Division, I couldn't disagree more. The division has struggled mightily since the loss of Styles, Joe and Daniels to the main event two years ago. That, and that alone is the reason for it's "failures" as a division, nothing more. Williams is actually doing a fantastic job of keeping the division relevant while it restructures it's ranks, and this Kendrick/Williams feud is just one aspect of that.

3. They have killed the credibility of most, if not all, their heels by making them out to be absolute fools, while the faces are overprotected beyond extreme measure, making any potential feuds to come in the next few months absolutely uninteresting, as we know who's going to win.

Absolute fools? Hardly. I do agree that the heels in the company lose far too often, but I wouldn't go so far as to say any of them are "absolute fools" for it. They still garner heat, so they've gotta be doing something right.

4. While good workers have been buried by the Hogan regime, men like Abyss, who was only half good five years ago, are given the extra shove to the main event. The youngest name you have in the main event scene is Kennedy, Hardy, and then you have a 39 year old in Rob Van Dam. Otherwise, you have Sting, Jarrett, and that's pretty much your scene of credible main eventers. Everyone on the show, save for Anderson, has been doing the same schtick for the past nine years, if not longer, and that's just fine for TNA executives.

Do you watch TNA, man? Honestly? I don't think you do, because if you did you'd never make such an asinine remark that couldn't be farther from the truth. How about AJ FUCKING STYLES? You know, the longest reigning TNA World Heavyweight Champion in company history? Remember him? How old is he now – what – 68? 69? Oh shit, that's right – he's 31. Well gee – look at that. I guess he should just file for social security now being the old decrepit bag of bones he is...

Then there's Pope who just fought for the title two months ago at Lockdown (April). If not for his injury he'd be in the main event scene right now as well, but I'm sure he's just another walking retirement case in desperate need of his medication, right? He's 32 – someone send him that retirement home brochure, will ya?

Jarrett hasn't been in a fight for the title for months, so he's not even relevant to this discussion.

5. The booking has relied on angles that were ten to twenty years ago, which leaves plenty of fans who could, in theory, be interested by the premise, are left absolutely confused, and the fans of the show who are generally interested are left rolling their eyes, wondering exactly why TNA has decided to relive these old angles, rather than creating new ones.

What booking are you referring to, exactly? Surely not all of it, I'd hope – do I really need to bring up the fact that the Top-10 Contenders system is brand new again? Besides, I've yet to see any of you professional TNA toilet-bowl testers explain why "new" booking is the only key to success. Am I to believe that that classic Cena/Batista booking that took place not a month ago is new? Am I to believe the NXT angle is new – a faction has never been done before, or attacked various other characters in the same company? More hypocritical nonsense if ya ask me.

6. And speaking of creating angles, the angles that are created rarely make sense, and are never explained. I don't have to be spoonfed it, but I hate when a company decides that the fans have to have been paying attention eleven years ago to follow the asinine storylines. The plot holes are plenty and gaping, and as long as Vince Russo is at the helm, that will always be the case.

Right – here we go again with this "I want an answer now" nonsense. You cry for logic and deeper characters, but then bitch and moan when the depth isn't accompanied with an immediate conclusion, right? Yeah, that makes sense.

As I noted in Doc's thread earlier, all the angles that "make you think" are the same that are shit on for being "illogical" and "making no sense" because the fans who are so used to being catered to at every step by the WWE's ABC/color-by-numbers booking aren't being spoon-fed when they watch TNA because they can't see the finish line from a mile and a half away, so which is it – you want "logical" color-by-numbers booking where bad guy beats up good guy and good guy gets his revenge 10 times out of 10, or do you actually want to think about what's going to happen by having the company takes steps beyond the orthodox concept of booking (at least the orthodox concept of booking as determined by the WWE)?

7. Morale is said to be incredibly low in TNA, much akin to back to the days of WCW.

And that's just a laundry list of the issues. The reason TNA gets shat upon is because it does, indeed, have the potential. It can be something great, but it chooses to settle for mediocrity. And when you have mediocrity, there's absolutely no way I take your company seriously.

Yeah, according to a dirt sheet. About as reliable as a perforated paper makes as a condom.

 

[shattered dreams]

1. They've completely abandoned their stance that they are the alternative to the WWE by trying to do everything that the WWE does, or has done.

2. They've nullified the X Division and the Knockouts, which originally were the best part of the program, into absolute nonsensical television, spare these last two weeks between Doug Williams/ Brian Kendrick

For starters Williams has been doing the same role for well over two weeks. The wwe does not even have anything like the x-division and the divas still worse than the Knockouts with the only thing some people seem to like about the divas being a ripoff of a tna gimmick.

3. They have killed the credibility of most, if not all, their heels by making them out to be absolute fools, while the faces are overprotected beyond extreme measure, making any potential feuds to come in the next few months absolutely uninteresting, as we know who's going to win.

Who exactly does this apply to? If AJ means all then maybe but that would be a pretty odd definition of all. Sting is anything but a fool right now. There is nothing foolish about Abyss destroying people. So everyone considers edge, jericho, swagger and most of nxt not fools all of a sudden? Many heels have always been foolish. It is often part of the character. How exactly is RVD overprotected? Angle? Lethal? Really any of them?

4. While good workers have been buried by the Hogan regime, men like Abyss, who was only half good five years ago, are given the extra shove to the main event. The youngest name you have in the main event scene is Kennedy, Hardy, and then you have a 39 year old in Rob Van Dam. Otherwise, you have Sting, Jarrett, and that's pretty much your scene of credible main eventers. Everyone on the show, save for Anderson, has been doing the same schtick for the past nine years, if not longer, and that's just fine for TNA executives.

So AJ holds the title at 31 for 7 months and we conveniently ignore that because they are presently re-working his character over the past few weeks? What good workers that were all-around talents has TNA buried? There are some that have not got that last big push but it is not like wwe is without those guys themselves, MVP, Morrison, Kofi, Christian etc. Jarrett is not in the main event scene. Why people keep saying this I have no idea. Sting has not been doing what he is doing now for the past 9 years. To suggest he has is simply ******ed. Look at "the wrestling show" smackdown. They have Big Show(38), Kane(43) and Mysterio(35) in the main event scene and those guys are not exactly young and surely have been doing the same thing for some time now. The young guy who just dropped the title after beating basically no one with it is essentially a ripoff of a legend in TNA at the moment. Starting to look like wwe directly borrows from what TNA is presently doing more than they let on. Surely that is worse than TNA using variations of ideas that have been done well in the past on occasion.

5. The booking has relied on angles that were ten to twenty years ago, which leaves plenty of fans who could, in theory, be interested by the premise, are left absolutely confused, and the fans of the show who are generally interested are left rolling their eyes, wondering exactly why TNA has decided to relive these old angles, rather than creating new ones.

6. And speaking of creating angles, the angles that are created rarely make sense, and are never explained. I don't have to be spoonfed it, but I hate when a company decides that the fans have to have been paying attention eleven years ago to follow the asinine storylines. The plot holes are plenty and gaping, and as long as Vince Russo is at the helm, that will always be the case.

I always find it amusing which glasses people choose to look at wwe vs tna with depending on their biases. People say everything tna does is a re-hash and praises the nxt angle for being so great. If they did this in TNA they would say it was just another invasion or nWo and bash tna for it. The angle makes no sense and has more plot holes than anything I have seen in wrestling in some time. Just look at how bad the promo was when nxt tried to explain the inconsistencies recently. However, IMO it is not about if it was sort of done before or whatever. It should be about is it interesting and entertaining. Many people believe the nxt angle is those things, so it is a success even though it is hardly entirely original. People spend way too much time talking about everything except the actual product TNA puts out.

My main point is that so many people spend all this time saying TNA is bad and will never be as good as WWE for reason X, Y and Z when almost always WWE has there own faults in X, Y and Z that are conveniently ignored. Basically TNA is a victim of its own potential. People expect a lot because of the positives present that often end up being ignored in the rush to criticize the company for not immediately capitalizing on all of them simultaneously. These unrealistic expectations lead to TNA not getting enough credit for what they have done and are presently doing to try and get there. While WWE gets praise for token efforts in things like the women's division, tag-division, nxt angle etc because their fanbase had succumbed to accept mediocrity or worse as the norm. That is why they get too much credit for their product.

 

[Joe's Gonna Kill You]

Find it hilarious how Internet "reporters" are now saying Tna lockeroom morale is at an "alltime low". These morons say this every month!


I must have missed it when one of these "journalists" changed next to me&Sting last taping then. Lol


Sorry to disapoint,but "morale"(they LOVE this word btw) hasn't been higher. Lots of exciting things are about to happen.
Matt Morgan wrote this on his official twitter so i guess this refutes all of the dirt sheets that says Morale is low

 

[Tenta]

So what you are telling me is that everything TNA is doing right now – and I mean everything – is in some way, shape or form a rehashed version of something the WWE/F did at some point in their double-decade long existence? What a crock of shit.

Yeah, pretty much, after Hogan debuted. I'll admit, TNA was different before Hogan's debut. Back when the X Division meant something. Back when the Knockouts were the best thing going. And now, it's really just a watered down version of the WWE.

Oh, that's right, they're better than the WWE, because the WWE is kiddie, right?

Name me the "Samoan Submission Machine" who seemingly defied the laws of physic in the WWE? Umaga you say? That's funny, I seem to remember Umaga debuting well after Joe, and as the "Samoan Bulldozer" no lesse. Gee, what a coincidence. But nah, TNA must have stolen that! What other reason could there be for Joe's existence as that character? Legitimate development? Fuck that – TNA isn't capable of doing that, right?

Funny you should mention Samoa joe, because what other character has suffered more from the past two years of TNA's inconsistent booking. Are you going to argue Samoa Joe is half the name he was two years ago in TNA?

Again, a great worker is pushed down in favor of old men who have no more place in wrestling.

By the way, yeah, it's a name thing. Either than that, Umaga and Samoa Joe really aren't that similar. And believe me, I like the fact that Samoa Joe isn't racist. But now, he's nothing more than a bit player in TNA.

Why? Because TNA has chosen to push the older, read, weaker talents, and have relegated most of the men with promise in TNA to the mid card or worse. How badly has Matt Morgan been fucked with in TNA over the past two years? This was a guy who was a can't miss product two years ago. And look, he's still stuck in the damn mid card. No growth and development from him, Hernandeza, Joe, and the likes have led to an overall worse TNA product, period.

Name the time the WWE/F utilized a Top-10 contenders ranking system for any of their belts, let alone the world championship.

Better yet, Tenta, name me the time the WWE did anything that the ECW or WCW or AWA or NWA or any number of other federations before them did.

How about NXT? Not the invasion, God knows that's been done, but the actual show. It's innovative, and while the first season wasn't spectacular, they seem to have the formula down. Or the Elimination Chamber, Hell in a Cell, TLC, and other such gimmick matches. How about branching their company out to a worldwide expansion, the likes of which barely worked for WCW.

Still, you have a point. Sure, history has been redone a thousand times. The difference, however, is in the nature of the writing, and the fact that for the most part, the angles don't suck out loud, a la TNA.

If the world of pro-wrestling were never allowed to beg, steal or borrow, we'd have no pro-wrestling to speak of right now, so enough with this bullshit about the WWE doing things first. No one does anything first these days. Everything is a rehash. Everything.

Agreed. Problem is, TNA rehashes it, with no way of differentiating it from the original. As a matter of fact, they strive for the original, in a cheap attempt to get a pop, because nothing else works in TNA.

1. The KO division isn't a draw in any sense of the word, so whether or not they nullified it is irrelevant as it itself is irrelevant as it is,

What ever happened to the arguments that TNA had such a great woman's division? As a matter of fact, IDR, that was one of the things that TNA fans constantly belittled the WWE for. And yet, now that it's gone, it didn't matter one bit? Right...

Look, The Knockouts, before suffering from Implosion, which should be the new name of TNA's show, were some of the highest rated segments. But just because their women, they weren't a draw, huh? That isn't in any way sexist.

but as for the X Division, I couldn't disagree more. The division has struggled mightily since the loss of Styles, Joe and Daniels to the main event two years ago. That, and that alone is the reason for it's "failures" as a division, nothing more. Williams is actually doing a fantastic job of keeping the division relevant while it restructures it's ranks, and this Kendrick/Williams feud is just one aspect of that.

And what keeps these names from going after the X Division title, when they're not in the main event? None of the names you mentioned are main event names anymore? Saying they're too good for the X Division pretty much proves the point. Usually, if a wrestler isn't involved in the main event scene, they can go down to the mid card title, and give it credibility. See; Mysterio and Jericho last year, Chris Benoit and RVD in the mid 2000s. That's how a successful company should run. However, your argument being they're too good to come back to the X Division proves how little thought is put into the X Division. It isn't that the stars have moved on, it's that TNA is too lazy to think out the box, and place them in the X Division to maintain the relevance of the belt.

Absolute fools? Hardly. I do agree that the heels in the company lose far too often, but I wouldn't go so far as to say any of them are "absolute fools" for it. They still garner heat, so they've gotta be doing something right.

Anyone can get heat with the extremely unrealistic, and mind you, marky, fans of the Impact Zone. Let's see how they do away from the Impact Zone. I guarantee you, they'd be met with general indifference.

Do you watch TNA, man? Honestly? I don't think you do, because if you did you'd never make such an asinine remark that couldn't be farther from the truth. How about AJ FUCKING STYLES? You know, the longest reigning TNA World Heavyweight Champion in company history? Remember him? How old is he now – what – 68? 69? Oh shit, that's right – he's 31. Well gee – look at that. I guess he should just file for social security now being the old decrepit bag of bones he is...

And look at what he's been doing the past couple months. Following old Flair around, as if Flair is the end all, be all of wrestling, sniffing his ass in the brief promos he gets, and oh, what else? Oh yeah, job. Yes, when's the last time he won a meaningful match? He was champion just a couple months ago, and hasn't won anything of note since. Even Kurt Angle acknowledges that, remember?

Then there's Pope who just fought for the title two months ago at Lockdown (April). If not for his injury he'd be in the main event scene right now as well, but I'm sure he's just another walking retirement case in desperate need of his medication, right? He's 32 – someone send him that retirement home brochure, will ya?

Right, so a guy who's only been around for two months, really. Desmond Wolfe had a fantastic two months. Where's that led him? Oh yes, on the Boulevard of Shattered Credibility.

Jarrett hasn't been in a fight for the title for months, so he's not even relevant to this discussion.

Are you shitting me? The man is in a main event feud with Sting, who mind you, was supposed to have retired about a year ago after his match with Sting. Yes, of course he's still relevant, you nit wit.

What booking are you referring to, exactly? Surely not all of it, I'd hope – do I really need to bring up the fact that the Top-10 Contenders system is brand new again? Besides, I've yet to see any of you professional TNA toilet-bowl testers explain why "new" booking is the only key to success.

I'd discuss the top ten contenders system if it was actually legit. But we both know that's not the case. You know who got the most votes the last time TNA publicized the results? Matt Morgan. And all that got him was jobbing to RVD in less than five minutes. Meanwhile, Sting got 1% of the vote, and yet, he's magically chosen to be the #1 contender.

Yeah, that top ten contender ranking thing is kinda innovative. Too bad it doesn't really mean jack shit. It's just a bunch of numbers that rarely apply to the fans at all.

Am I to believe that that classic Cena/Batista booking that took place not a month ago is new? Am I to believe the NXT angle is new – a faction has never been done before, or attacked various other characters in the same company? More hypocritical nonsense if ya ask me.

Again, I'll take storylines that have been done when they are good. And face facts, TNA booking just isn't that good.

Right – here we go again with this "I want an answer now" nonsense. You cry for logic and deeper characters, but then bitch and moan when the depth isn't accompanied with an immediate conclusion, right? Yeah, that makes sense.

No, I just want the angles explained at some point. So we still know why Joe was kidnapped? Or why Sting is running around screaming "deception"? Or who Matt Morgan meant by "we"?

I just doubt we'll get answers, period.

As I noted in Doc's thread earlier, all the angles that "make you think" are the same that are shit on for being "illogical" and "making no sense" because the fans who are so used to being catered to at every step by the WWE's ABC/color-by-numbers booking aren't being spoon-fed when they watch TNA because they can't see the finish line from a mile and a half away, so which is it – you want "logical" color-by-numbers booking where bad guy beats up good guy and good guy gets his revenge 10 times out of 10, or do you actually want to think about what's going to happen by having the company takes steps beyond the orthodox concept of booking (at least the orthodox concept of booking as determined by the WWE)?

No joke.... Through this thing, I couldn't help but think of the same way Lord Sidious used to call fans "shareholders" if they didn't agree with his thoughts. You're whole "color by numbers" bullshit? Yeah, no better than the "shareholders" from Sidious really.

Anyway, on to the point. I like to think, but granted, you have a point. Wrestling is catered to the lowest common demonimator of fans. All pop culture is, really. We're not looking for Lost when we watch wrestling, and if we did, we'd watch Lost. Wrestling is just that, and overbooking it to death leads to less people watching.

Again, it isn't so much a wrestling, as much as it is a business of wrestling thing. And doing these things simply isn't good business when you're marketing to wrestling fans.

Yeah, according to a dirt sheet. About as reliable as a perforated paper makes as a condom.

Any I buy it, because no one has refuted it, and no one is saying otherwise. When someone says otherwise, I'll listen.

 

[DJImpact1]

OK firstly at very least raw is 3.3 and at very best tna is 1.0. Just had to state that. And the problem is they are going backwords. They had numbers in the mid 1's and one point and now can hardly get a 1. And They may have only been around for 1 month, but superstars, which has been around for a year is beating tna every once in a while.

Why did you "have" to state that? The guy was just expressing his opinion. Ratings only measure so much. Yes, it matters in terms of advertisers & keeping the network happy, but maybe the quality of the demographic these companies appeal to matters to a small degree also.

If my success in life depended on how many people I knew, I'd rather surround myself with 1,000,000 intelligent people than 3,300,000 half-brained dimwits.

The problem here is that people think:

1) Money doesn't grow on trees. If you don't have a million bucks, you can't crap 'em out of your ass to finance a company. If it were that easy TNA wouldn't need the iMPACT! Zone. And they could pull out a hell of a lot more advertising outside of Spike TV.

2) 8 years is actually pretty fast. McDonalds didn't become a world wide franchise in 8 years. Neither did Nike. WWE was a territory for over 20 freakin' years. So was WCW. Do you know how hard it is for companies to get world renowned exposure? Especially a sport franchise? UFC was laughed at for years before it began to be look at seriously. It was a side show to many. 8 years. TNA grew in a mere 8 years. What about ROH? PWG? CZW? All of these started pretty much at the same time. Including TNA. Where are they? Do they have 1.0 cable ratings? Do they have monthly televised PPV's? Do they have a weekly program on a national TV channel? No they don't. TNA does.

3) Its drawing attention. Clearly there has to be something for people such as Kurt Freakin' Angle and Mick Foley to drop out of their high positions and head there. Clearly guys like Kevin Nash, Scott Steiner, Booker T, 16 (plus) time World Champion Ric Flair and even Hulk Hogan see something here. It may be dollar signs, but they are coming. It can't be for the hell of it.

4) People are just totally blind to the fact that one company has somehow managed to pull through in a monopolized field ruled by a 50 year old multi-million dollar monster hype machine known as World Wrestling Entertainment.

5) Not only that but there are other assholes who just can't accept the fact that now there's a choice. Electric Chair? Or Lethal Injection? It doesn't have to be what the big guy with the thick voice says anymore. They go out of their way to demean the product and make seem like its not right. Ain't that the same shit with Pepsi and Coca Cola? The 50 year old king of sodas. It succumbed to the new guy. Now they're equals.

6) Then you have your "we know more about running a company than the company itself even though we're sitting at home writing on a computer" guys. Oh fire Hogan. Oh fire Russo. Oh gimme a break. How the fuck do you know they are the ones responsible? Telekinesis or some other psychic shit? Gimme a damn break. A corporation running the show and you somehow can pinpoint its one flaw over past offenses. Because apparently Vince Russo and Hulk Hogan are the only two jackasses working in the booking department. Sit down and finish your college education on Wrestling Administration. I don't have it, that's why I just give an opinion on the product rather that trying to dictate what should be done.

7) The impatience of people really sickens me. 8 years running. 4 and a half years with a stable television program. 2 years running for 2 hours. Yet to have a second TV show. Yet somehow they are garnering support. Little by little. If the product was so good in 2006, why the hell wasn't getting the 1.1's until last year? If the product is so terrible now why does it get a steady 1.0? Even against the freakin' NBA Finals? Magic? Not every tree grows the same. They can be the same kind, but it will never grow the same. Some will die, some will keep on growing. The fact that the TNA tree has survived so much and is still growing, shows that anybody can stand up to WWE. It takes... Time. Bitches.

BRAVO! (minus the "bitches"), but nice opinion!

One thing I seem to notice a lot, which is disheartening, is that the blame for the "lack of" success TNA has been having, or the "lack of" storyline quality TNA has, keeps circulating back to Hulk Hogan & Eric Bischoff.

These guys are no more of a TNA performer than Mike Tenay. It is one's conscious decision to focus on what Hogan and/or Bischoff does or doesn't do for TNA, rather than take the same focus & effort to acknowledge Jay Lethal & Ric Flair engaging in a hilarious promo or that we were treated to an entertaining no-DQ match between Abyss & Mr. Anderson.

Yes, some things get boring and dull over time, especially with repetition/overuse. But it's not just overuse of one or two performers...it's the repetition of those who continue to focus on a few negative aspects of the company or its performers, rather than giving a non-selfish & acknowledging statement like, "Wow, some of those A.J.-Kurt Angle matches were something else" or "It's cool that after a couple of years of speculation about his career, RVD signed with TNA and now I get the opportunity to see him here".

No company is EVER going to completely 100% cater to their key demographic...they could come damn close, but it's impossible to please everybody. So much of the moaning & complaining & "wah wah, woe is me" going on with what TNA has done or hasn't done. Can't some people just appreciate SOME kind of alternative that's out there? I'm sure as hell happy that I can still see Kurt Angle, RVD & Mr. Anderson as well as Abyss, A.J. Styles & Kaz perform on the platform they helped grow.

WWE drove me nuts with this NXT bull, and drove me right to TNA exclusively. I still like Randy Orton's talent (as a performer) and I know they still have a great (higher) production value, but I'd rather post here & focus my energy on how much I enjoy TNA, rather than waste my time bitching about what WWE is or isn't doing, especially if I don't agree with what they're doing.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

Yeah, pretty much, after Hogan debuted. I'll admit, TNA was different before Hogan's debut. Back when the X Division meant something. Back when the Knockouts were the best thing going. And now, it's really just a watered down version of the WWE.

Oh, that's right, they're better than the WWE, because the WWE is kiddie, right?

1. What does "kiddie" have anything to do with the discussion? This point was about the idea that TNA simply recycles old story lines of the WWE/F which I countered with the point that all of pro-wrestling is re-hashings conveniently disguised as "new" writing. At least try and stay on-topic, Tenta.

2. So again, what you are telling me is that everything TNA is doing right now – and I mean everything – is in some way, shape or form a rehashed version of something the WWE/F did at some point in their double-decade long existence? What a crock of shit.

Funny you should mention Samoa joe, because what other character has suffered more from the past two years of TNA's inconsistent booking. Are you going to argue Samoa Joe is half the name he was two years ago in TNA?

Again, a great worker is pushed down in favor of old men who have no more place in wrestling.

By the way, yeah, it's a name thing. Either than that, Umaga and Samoa Joe really aren't that similar. And believe me, I like the fact that Samoa Joe isn't racist. But now, he's nothing more than a bit player in TNA.

Why? Because TNA has chosen to push the older, read, weaker talents, and have relegated most of the men with promise in TNA to the mid card or worse. How badly has Matt Morgan been fucked with in TNA over the past two years? This was a guy who was a can't miss product two years ago. And look, he's still stuck in the damn mid card. No growth and development from him, Hernandeza, Joe, and the likes have led to an overall worse TNA product, period.

Name the time the WWE/F utilized a Top-10 contenders ranking system for any of their belts, let alone the world championship.

No, I'm not, but that's not even moderately relevant to the discussion. Again, you're derailing the point to avoid direct questions I'm starting to think you can't answer because they wouldn't allow you to fill your post with vehement and unfounded rhetoric.

Matt Morgan just came off a huge run as tag team champions (both with Hernandez, and without), so I whole-heartedly object to the notion that he's been "fucked with" for two years.

Hernandez just returned to feud with Morgan (still going on), and you're already bitching about he's being underutilized, too? I bet you'd be bitching had they never fulfilled the feud with Morgan in the first place and vaulted him to the main event, too, huh? Just like most of the professional TNA toilet-bowl testers, you shit on the product no matter how relevant it actually is. You shit on it for being illogical, then shit on it when it's logical for not being booked right, and when it's booked right, you shit on it for being illogical. Never-ending cycle of unfounded hatred that IMO is nothing short of a byproduct of WWE brainwashing.

By the way, you were the one who said "they've completely abandoned their stance that they are the alternative to the WWE by trying to do everything that the WWE does, or has done", to which I replied appropriately. You of course, did not reply to that reply in a logical manner – instead you went off on another tirade about something they're not doing right instead of answering simple questions. I gave you direct examples of things TNA did that the WWE did not, to which you replied with a rant about how they failed with Samoa Joe. Logic fail.

How about NXT? Not the invasion, God knows that's been done, but the actual show. It's innovative, and while the first season wasn't spectacular, they seem to have the formula down. Or the Elimination Chamber, Hell in a Cell, TLC, and other such gimmick matches. How about branching their company out to a worldwide expansion, the likes of which barely worked for WCW.

As I noted, everything in pro-wrestling is a re-hash of something previous done conveniently disguised as new. NXT is no different. They're another rebel heel faction on a power trip – they just so happen to be rookies this time. Not a total re-hash of the nWo – their closest comparison – but not original by any means either.

Still, you have a point. Sure, history has been redone a thousand times. The difference, however, is in the nature of the writing, and the fact that for the most part, the angles don't suck out loud, a la TNA.

Baseless rhetoric.

Agreed. Problem is, TNA rehashes it, with no way of differentiating it from the original. As a matter of fact, they strive for the original, in a cheap attempt to get a pop, because nothing else works in TNA.

Yeah, except that that's not even remotely true. Anderson/Angle worked. Angle/Wolfe worked. AJ/Angle worked. AJ/Flair worked. Pope/Wolfe worked. Morgan/Hernandez worked. Tara/TBP worked. Love/TBP worked. The list goes on and on, but I'm sure you'll cast all these examples of successes aside as failure since it would make your rhetorical insults disguised as an argument look bad...

What ever happened to the arguments that TNA had such a great woman's division? As a matter of fact, IDR, that was one of the things that TNA fans constantly belittled the WWE for. And yet, now that it's gone, it didn't matter one bit? Right...

Look, The Knockouts, before suffering from Implosion, which should be the new name of TNA's show, were some of the highest rated segments. But just because their women, they weren't a draw, huh? That isn't in any way sexist.

Who cares? Neither division draws, and the WWE's "Divas" are in no better shape, anyway. No one gives a fuck about women's wrestling, man – no one. I'm not going to sit here and argue about it with you. It's as irrelevant as can be.

And what keeps these names from going after the X Division title, when they're not in the main event? None of the names you mentioned are main event names anymore? Saying they're too good for the X Division pretty much proves the point. Usually, if a wrestler isn't involved in the main event scene, they can go down to the mid card title, and give it credibility. See; Mysterio and Jericho last year, Chris Benoit and RVD in the mid 2000s. That's how a successful company should run. However, your argument being they're too good to come back to the X Division proves how little thought is put into the X Division. It isn't that the stars have moved on, it's that TNA is too lazy to think out the box, and place them in the X Division to maintain the relevance of the belt.

Uh, the fact that all the professional TNA toilet-bowl testers would come out of the woodwork like termites to jump at the opportunity to show how poorly booked TNA is on the drop of a dime were AJ Styles, their former WHC, and the longest reigning in company history, to be "demoted" to the "mid-card" to feud over a title he's well past in his career at this point? Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's the answer here.

The X Division isn't the equivalent of the IC title – it's the equivalent of the US title (if you had to compare it). While it's far and away the most prestigious title in TNA because of it's history, it's primarily a cruiser-weight strap for a cruiserweight division. Guys like Daniels, AJ and Joe were exceptions, not the rule. The rule was Amazing Red, Jerry Lynn, Low Ki, Elix Skipper, Chris Sabin, etc.

There is no "mid-card" title in TNA that's on the same plane as the IC title is for the WWE. It should be the Global title, but it's not. So when you mention guys like Jericho & Mysterio "stepping back" the way they did, they only did so to half a tier below the world title – not nearly as far of a drop as it would be were a TNA star to step from the WHC to the X Division again.

Anyone can get heat with the extremely unrealistic, and mind you, marky, fans of the Impact Zone. Let's see how they do away from the Impact Zone. I guarantee you, they'd be met with general indifference.

Tell that to the incredible crowd they drew in St. Louis for Lockdown this last April. Pretty sure that alone proves you wrong.

And look at what he's been doing the past couple months. Following old Flair around, as if Flair is the end all, be all of wrestling, sniffing his ass in the brief promos he gets, and oh, what else? Oh yeah, job. Yes, when's the last time he won a meaningful match? He was champion just a couple months ago, and hasn't won anything of note since. Even Kurt Angle acknowledges that, remember?

Yeah, and reinventing his character for a likely face-turn. All of a sudden the amount of matches you win equates to your unilateral value in the company hierarchy? I wonder where that puts Jericho...

Right, so a guy who's only been around for two months, really. Desmond Wolfe had a fantastic two months. Where's that led him? Oh yes, on the Boulevard of Shattered Credibility.

I don't even understand this...

Are you shitting me? The man is in a main event feud with Sting, who mind you, was supposed to have retired about a year ago after his match with Sting. Yes, of course he's still relevant, you nit wit.

Main event is WHC. Everything else is "mid-card" – be it upper-mid-card or mid-mid-card or lower-mid-card. Jarrett is not fighting for the strap, hence he is not a main-eventer.

I'd discuss the top ten contenders system if it was actually legit. But we both know that's not the case. You know who got the most votes the last time TNA publicized the results? Matt Morgan. And all that got him was jobbing to RVD in less than five minutes. Meanwhile, Sting got 1% of the vote, and yet, he's magically chosen to be the #1 contender.

Yeah, that top ten contender ranking thing is kinda innovative. Too bad it doesn't really mean jack shit. It's just a bunch of numbers that rarely apply to the fans at all.

Makes total sense to me. Ranked members compete against one another and move up or down slots as they win/lose, and whoever is seeded at #2 at any given moment is the next contender to the title. May not be the easiest way of booking, but it's innovative – something you criticized TNA of being incapable of being.

By the way, the votes didn't equate the exact return for the seeds. The "Championship Committee" factored in wins/losses and experience into the rankings as well.

Again, I'll take storylines that have been done when they are good. And face facts, TNA booking just isn't that good.

More baseless rhetoric, and another walk-around behind a direct challenge.

No, I just want the angles explained at some point. So we still know why Joe was kidnapped? Or why Sting is running around screaming "deception"? Or who Matt Morgan meant by "we"?

I just doubt we'll get answers, period.

Yeah, and you don't think it's possible the same "they" that Joe talked about when he returned are the same "they" that Abyss is talking about? Sounds to me like that can potentially equate an eventual explanation – the very thing you're asking for – so why are you so hell bent on getting it right this second? Why can't they draw it out? Are you that impatient?

Morgan's "we" was a gimmick about him and his ego being "partners" when he was still TNA World Tag Team champion(s) – it has nothing to do with the "they" angle, or with Sting's "deception" angle, which also may not have anything to do with the "they" angle that Joe/Abyss are likely working off of together seeing as the "they" Sting is referring to is all but certainly Hogan & Bischoff, and Jarrett & Carter for supporting them. Had you actually watched the program, you'd have gotten this. Even KB – TNA's biggest detractor – understood this, so how can't you?

No joke.... Through this thing, I couldn't help but think of the same way Lord Sidious used to call fans "shareholders" if they didn't agree with his thoughts. You're whole "color by numbers" bullshit? Yeah, no better than the "shareholders" from Sidious really.

Anyway, on to the point. I like to think, but granted, you have a point. Wrestling is catered to the lowest common demonimator of fans. All pop culture is, really. We're not looking for Lost when we watch wrestling, and if we did, we'd watch Lost. Wrestling is just that, and overbooking it to death leads to less people watching.

Again, it isn't so much a wrestling, as much as it is a business of wrestling thing. And doing these things simply isn't good business when you're marketing to wrestling fans.

Well I won't deny we share a same common goal, but you're the one who threw the first stone, so don't act so innocent and throw your hands up like you did nothing to deserve the retribution when I throw one right back, man.

I enjoy this program, and I have to withstand waves of rhetorical and baseless bullshit that get thrown at it and all it's fans for watching it, so I see no issue with returning the favor to the WWE loyalists – especially the loyalists who double as front-of-the-line infantry for the pot-shot crew.

Any I buy it, because no one has refuted it, and no one is saying otherwise. When someone says otherwise, I'll listen.

Yeah, and I'm sure the WWE has never had low morale, huh? Never heard anyone refer to working in that locker room as a negative experience at all – never heard anyone refer to their glass ceiling, or censorships at all.

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

 

[ilapierre]

misterob buddy..i know the history of wrestling inside out. i've been tuning in likely longer than you. You used twisted logic to suit yourself. End of case. You're wrong and most people with a brain here would back me up on that.

 

[MisterRob]

misterob buddy..i know the history of wrestling inside out. i've been tuning in likely longer than you.

Clearly you don't, which you PROVED with your complete lack of knowledge of TNA's beginnings with the NWA.

Who cares? Neither division draws, and the WWE's "Divas" are in no better shape, anyway. No one gives a fuck about women's wrestling, man – no one. I'm not going to sit here and argue about it with you. It's as irrelevant as can be.

NOTHING draws in TNA. The fact though is the Knockouts division was once the highest rated segments, consistently every single week, of Impact. The Knockouts drew better then the top male talents in their feuds and storylines on Impact, so clearly people DID give a fuck about women’s wrestling. In fact, they cared more about watching the women’s division then they cared about watching any of the other stuff that was happening on the entire show. What you seem to see as irrelevant is actually a very valid piece of insight into what TNA’s doing wrong; they’re pushing what people DON’T want to see and they’re changing or burying what people DO want to see. You don’t think that’s relevant?

The X Division isn't the equivalent of the IC title – it's the equivalent of the US title (if you had to compare it). While it's far and away the most prestigious title in TNA because of it's history, it's primarily a cruiser-weight strap for a cruiserweight division. Guys like Daniels, AJ and Joe were exceptions, not the rule. The rule was Amazing Red, Jerry Lynn, Low Ki, Elix Skipper, Chris Sabin, etc.

Tell me the difference between the Intercontinental title and the US title, please. Both championships have histories of being the second tier title in their original companies. The US was in WCW what the Intercontinental title use to be in the WWE. Now they’re both the second tier titles on their respective brands/shows. They’re pretty much dead even when it comes to standing and value right now in the WWE universe.

The fact you’re claiming the top THREE talents and champions in the history of the X division, and arguably the most important three names in the history of the division, are the EXCEPTIONS and not the rule shows that you really don’t grasp what the X Division title was and should still be. To claim the division and a lot of the names that have made it up in the past are nothing more then a Cruiserweight division is very short sighted to me.

Next you’ll be telling me that the Global championship, a completely meaningless piece of crap title, is the second tier championship in TNA and has more meaning then the X Division championship.

At one time the X Division was as prestigeous if not more meaningful to the fans and the wrestling world as a whole then the World championship. When AJ Styles, Daniels, even Samoa Joe were competing over it it was more meaningful and important then Jeff Jarrett holding the World championship. As a TNA fan, which you definitely are, I’m incredibly surprised you don’t see the potential and the benefit of the X Division and of developing the championship back to those previous standards. I’m surprised you’re so willing to write it off and accept it as what the creative team who are dragging TNA down in my eyes seem determined to try to make the Division be, a version of WWE’s Cruiserweight division. It could be so much more then that. Look at the champion it has right now, Doug William’s isn’t exactly a cruiserweight wrestler.

There is no "mid-card" title in TNA that's on the same plane as the IC title is for the WWE. It should be the Global title, but it's not. So when you mention guys like Jericho & Mysterio "stepping back" the way they did, they only did so to half a tier below the world title – not nearly as far of a drop as it would be were a TNA star to step from the WHC to the X Division again.

I disagree with you entirely. The Global title shouldn’t even exist because it’s utterly meaningless and unnecessary. The X Division title should be the second championship in TNA; a title with a legacy and a uniqueness that would separate it from what the WWE’s doing right now.

You also seem to forget that Samoa Joe, at one time, did go back to the X Division after he was “above and beyond it”. Why is that an issue? You seem to have forgotten the roots of the division, because Samoa Joe was never a Cruiserweight. The X Division was never about cruiserweights, it was about a new style of wrestling and a youth movement if anything.

Main event is WHC. Everything else is "mid-card" – be it upper-mid-card or mid-mid-card or lower-mid-card. Jarrett is not fighting for the strap, hence he is not a main-eventer.

This is a bit off in logic, I think. Not every main event feud has to be around a championship at all. Jarrett and Sting is a major storyline, they’ve been getting major television time to develop it and the storylines interweaved with other angles such as Sting challenging for the World Heavyweight title recently.

Makes total sense to me. Ranked members compete against one another and move up or down slots as they win/lose, and whoever is seeded at #2 at any given moment is the next contender to the title. May not be the easiest way of booking, but it's innovative – something you criticized TNA of being incapable of being.

Please explain to me how Sting went from the bottom of the rankings then to suddenly becoming the number one contender when he did absolutely nothing, beat absolutely no one?

Please explain to me how Abyss is in the title picture when he had 1% of the vote and was just recently at number 6 of the ranking system. Was it because he beat Desmond Wolfe? Desmond Wolfe got a title shot and lost, which would mean he logically goes down to the bottom of the ranks and has to work his way back up, right?.. so Abyss beating him wouldn’t put him up anywhere near the top of the rankings. He might move up one spot but that would place him at number 5.

Desmond Wolfe lost a title shot and suddenly was at the bottom of the rankings, yet Sting just got a title shot and lost too, didn’t he, but he’s at number 5 on the rankings. How is that? AJ Styles was recently at number 3 on the rankings system and suddenly he’s now behind Ken Anderson, Jeff Hardy AND Abyss who are all getting the title shot and are the top three. How did they get there in the first place?

Even more baffling… Samoa Joe was at number 10 and suddenly he’s now at number 6! How did that happen? Please explain to me how he jumped up in the rankings when he really hasn’t been on television or used. Rob Terry was also at number 9 in the first showing of the rankings and he’s now not even on the list. Kaz got on the list without even beating anyone who was ON the list already. See how confusing they are? Unless you can explain all of that to me they are, in fact, rather meaningless when you get right down to the core of them.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

NOTHING draws in TNA. The fact though is the Knockouts division was once the highest rated segments, consistently every single week, of Impact. The Knockouts drew better then the top male talents in their feuds and storylines on Impact, so clearly people DID give a fuck about women’s wrestling. In fact, they cared more about watching the women’s division then they cared about watching any of the other stuff that was happening on the entire show. What you seem to see as irrelevant is actually a very valid piece of insight into what TNA’s doing wrong; they’re pushing what people DON’T want to see and they’re changing or burying what people DO want to see. You don’t think that’s relevant?

For what, a few segments here and there? No way in hell any Knockouts performance at any time every drew a single angle with Angle. No way on earth. I'd bet a vital body part on that, because as far as bets go, that's a sure bet. Kurt Angle is the biggest draw in TNA – bar none. Has been since he debuted in the company and will continue to be for the foreseeable future.

Tell me, what exactly are TNA burying that people want to see right now – other than all the "young guys" in the title scene at the same time while all the "veterans" are sent packing because "no one needs them, anyway"?

I'm sure that's what TNA needs – to listen to moronic smarks who only give a shit about the flavor of the week spot monkeys under the age of 30 instead of legitimate draws and walking legacies like Sting & Flair.

Tell me the difference between the Intercontinental title and the US title, please. Both championships have histories of being the second tier title in their original companies. The US was in WCW what the Intercontinental title use to be in the WWE. Now they’re both the second tier titles on their respective brands/shows. They’re pretty much dead even when it comes to standing and value right now in the WWE universe.

The difference between the IC title and the US/TV titles is simple – the IC title is an upper-mid-card championship, and the US title is a lower-mid-card title. Simple as that. Historically speaking, guys on the verge of the main event or guys taking a break from it were the ones carrying the IC belt, and guys on the verge of elevating themselves up the card into IC title contention were the ones carrying the US/TV titles.

The US title in WCW is not the same as the US title in the WWE. The US title in WCW was what the IC title is in the WWE, but since the fusion the IC title has been the second tier strap where the US title has been a tier below. Fact.

The fact you’re claiming the top THREE talents and champions in the history of the X division, and arguably the most important three names in the history of the division, are the EXCEPTIONS and not the rule shows that you really don’t grasp what the X Division title was and should still be. To claim the division and a lot of the names that have made it up in the past are nothing more then a Cruiserweight division is very short sighted to me.

False. The fact the X Division has only produced those three as the types who went on to main event – and technically you can eliminate Daniels from the conversation seeing as he never won the WHC, and had only a handful of shots at it to begin with – is proof positive that they are in fact the exception and not the rule. There are far more cases of guys like Low Ki, Jerry Lynn, Chris Sabin and others being heralded for their work in that division for a reason – they defined it. AJ and Joe simply re-defined it (momentarily) during their tenures there.

Had the X Division title been such a propelling second-tier title, why didn't guys like Christian Cage, Jeff Jarrett, Monty Brown, Kevin Nash, Rhino or Abyss (among countless others) who all main-evented for TNA at one point or another in their careers ever compete for it when they were no longer in WHC title contention? Why didn't Scott Steiner or Booker T ever compete for it for that matter? Maybe because despite the popular moniker of being a division "without limits", it is in fact "limited" by it's historical nature, as it tended to require a particular skill-set that allowed for more high-flying and technical wrestling for it's credibility to be taken seriously?

…and you wonder why people hate the X Division right now? Look at who's champion – Douglas Williams – a guy who's by nature the total opposite of what a traditional X Division wrestler was. I personally enjoy Williams, but I see him very much so as a transitional champion that can allow for a redefinition of what it mean to be an X Division star where TNA can rebuild their incredibly dry bed with fresh new talent. Perfect segway to sign a Brian Danielson or a Tyler Black.

Next you’ll be telling me that the Global championship, a completely meaningless piece of crap title, is the second tier championship in TNA and has more meaning then the X Division championship.

Technically speaking, yes, because the guys who held it were in fact second-tier main-event stars who were breaking from the WHC scene at the time – namely Booker T, Kevin Nash, MIck Foley, AJ Styles and Christian Cage.

Unfortunately, the nature in which it was brought into the company didn't allow for it to ever vault itself above the X Division title in terms of aptly applying itself to a specific division in the company, and by allowing Eric Young and Rob Terry to hold it, they subsequently made an already strained situation worse.

At one time the X Division was as prestigeous if not more meaningful to the fans and the wrestling world as a whole then the World championship. When AJ Styles, Daniels, even Samoa Joe were competing over it it was more meaningful and important then Jeff Jarrett holding the World championship. As a TNA fan, which you definitely are, I’m incredibly surprised you don’t see the potential and the benefit of the X Division and of developing the championship back to those previous standards. I’m surprised you’re so willing to write it off and accept it as what the creative team who are dragging TNA down in my eyes seem determined to try to make the Division be, a version of WWE’s Cruiserweight division. It could be so much more then that. Look at the champion it has right now, Doug William’s isn’t exactly a cruiserweight wrestler.

See above.

I disagree with you entirely. The Global title shouldn’t even exist because it’s utterly meaningless and unnecessary. The X Division title should be the second championship in TNA; a title with a legacy and a uniqueness that would separate it from what the WWE’s doing right now.

You also seem to forget that Samoa Joe, at one time, did go back to the X Division after he was “above and beyond it”. Why is that an issue? You seem to have forgotten the roots of the division, because Samoa Joe was never a Cruiserweight. The X Division was never about cruiserweights, it was about a new style of wrestling and a youth movement if anything.

If you base it off it's debut, yes, but an upper-mid-card title would benefit TNA more than a lower-to-mid-card title in the X Division when you consider the roster itself. Most of the roster don't' particularly qualify for traditional X Division lure, and because they don't, having them compete for it would be relatively pointless.

Certainly not out of the realm of plausibility to convert the Global Title so it's more relevant than it's debut. See my Seven Ways* Thread for further on that.

This is a bit off in logic, I think. Not every main event feud has to be around a championship at all. Jarrett and Sting is a major storyline, they’ve been getting major television time to develop it and the storylines interweaved with other angles such as Sting challenging for the World Heavyweight title recently.

Which is what makes them upper-mid-card. Main event, by definition is the close of the show. It's rare the close of a TNA program features Sting & Jarrett at this point – it almost always includes some variation of RVD, Hardy, Anderson, Styles, Beer Money, Inc., etc.

Sting & Jarrett can be main-eventers, but in this case they are not. They are upper-mid-carders, because that's exactly where the match will take place at the Victory Road PPV as well.

Please explain to me how Sting went from the bottom of the rankings then to suddenly becoming the number one contender when he did absolutely nothing, beat absolutely no one?

Please explain to me how Abyss is in the title picture when he had 1% of the vote and was just recently at number 6 of the ranking system. Was it because he beat Desmond Wolfe? Desmond Wolfe got a title shot and lost, which would mean he logically goes down to the bottom of the ranks and has to work his way back up, right?.. so Abyss beating him wouldn’t put him up anywhere near the top of the rankings. He might move up one spot but that would place him at number 5.

Desmond Wolfe lost a title shot and suddenly was at the bottom of the rankings, yet Sting just got a title shot and lost too, didn’t he, but he’s at number 5 on the rankings. How is that? AJ Styles was recently at number 3 on the rankings system and suddenly he’s now behind Ken Anderson, Jeff Hardy AND Abyss who are all getting the title shot and are the top three. How did they get there in the first place?

Even more baffling… Samoa Joe was at number 10 and suddenly he’s now at number 6! How did that happen? Please explain to me how he jumped up in the rankings when he really hasn’t been on television or used. Rob Terry was also at number 9 in the first showing of the rankings and he’s now not even on the list. Kaz got on the list without even beating anyone who was ON the list already. See how confusing they are? Unless you can explain all of that to me they are, in fact, rather meaningless when you get right down to the core of them.

Never said it was the best system, to be employing – just that it was innovative. I'm not a fan of it personally, but the competitors compete against one another for each others spots. For instance, if Joe is seeded at #9 and Kaz is at #10 and Kaz beats Joe, the two swap spots. If Sting is at #2 and loses, I presume he drops out of contention as he has over the last few weeks. If Wolfe is at #5 and loses to a #10 ranked Angle, Wolfe moves to #6 (and every competitor below him moves down a rank as well) and Angle moves up one.

Seems relatively simple to me – just confusing to keep track of.

I already explained why some guys seeded where they did, anyway – it wasn't based purely off the votes of the public. Those were only a small factor int he process. The "Championship Committtee" of Bischoff, Hogan and Carter also factored in various other statistical aspects including wins/losses record and "relevance".

 

[JackBurton]

For what, a few segments here and there? No way in hell any Knockouts performance at any time every drew a single angle with Angle. No way on earth. I'd bet a vital body part on that, because as far as bets go, that's a sure bet. Kurt Angle is the biggest draw in TNA – bar none. Has been since he debuted in the company and will continue to be for the foreseeable future.

Tell me, what exactly are TNA burying that people want to see right now – other than all the "young guys" in the title scene at the same time while all the "veterans" are sent packing because "no one needs them, anyway"?

I'm sure that's what TNA needs – to listen to moronic smarks who only give a shit about the flavor of the week spot monkeys under the age of 30 instead of legitimate draws and walking legacies like Sting & Flair.



The difference between the IC title and the US/TV titles is simple – the IC title is an upper-mid-card championship, and the US title is a lower-mid-card title. Simple as that. Historically speaking, guys on the verge of the main event or guys taking a break from it were the ones carrying the IC belt, and guys on the verge of elevating themselves up the card into IC title contention were the ones carrying the US/TV titles.

The US title in WCW is not the same as the US title in the WWE. The US title in WCW was what the IC title is in the WWE, but since the fusion the IC title has been the second tier strap where the US title has been a tier below. Fact.



False. The fact the X Division has only produced those three as the types who went on to main event – and technically you can eliminate Daniels from the conversation seeing as he never won the WHC, and had only a handful of shots at it to begin with – is proof positive that they are in fact the exception and not the rule. There are far more cases of guys like Low Ki, Jerry Lynn, Chris Sabin and others being heralded for their work in that division for a reason – they defined it. AJ and Joe simply re-defined it (momentarily) during their tenures there.

Had the X Division title been such a propelling second-tier title, why didn't guys like Christian Cage, Jeff Jarrett, Monty Brown, Kevin Nash, Rhino or Abyss (among countless others) who all main-evented for TNA at one point or another in their careers ever compete for it when they were no longer in WHC title contention? Why didn't Scott Steiner or Booker T ever compete for it for that matter? Maybe because despite the popular moniker of being a division "without limits", it is in fact "limited" by it's historical nature, as it tended to require a particular skill-set that allowed for more high-flying and technical wrestling for it's credibility to be taken seriously?

…and you wonder why people hate the X Division right now? Look at who's champion – Douglas Williams – a guy who's by nature the total opposite of what a traditional X Division wrestler was. I personally enjoy Williams, but I see him very much so as a transitional champion that can allow for a redefinition of what it mean to be an X Division star where TNA can rebuild their incredibly dry bed with fresh new talent. Perfect segway to sign a Brian Danielson or a Tyler Black.



Technically speaking, yes, because the guys who held it were in fact second-tier main-event stars who were breaking from the WHC scene at the time – namely Booker T, Kevin Nash, MIck Foley, AJ Styles and Christian Cage.

Unfortunately, the nature in which it was brought into the company didn't allow for it to ever vault itself above the X Division title in terms of aptly applying itself to a specific division in the company, and by allowing Eric Young and Rob Terry to hold it, they subsequently made an already strained situation worse.



See above.



If you base it off it's debut, yes, but an upper-mid-card title would benefit TNA more than a lower-to-mid-card title in the X Division when you consider the roster itself. Most of the roster don't' particularly qualify for traditional X Division lure, and because they don't, having them compete for it would be relatively pointless.

Certainly not out of the realm of plausibility to convert the Global Title so it's more relevant than it's debut. See my Seven Ways* Thread for further on that.



Which is what makes them upper-mid-card. Main event, by definition is the close of the show. It's rare the close of a TNA program features Sting & Jarrett at this point – it almost always includes some variation of RVD, Hardy, Anderson, Styles, Beer Money, Inc., etc.

Sting & Jarrett can be main-eventers, but in this case they are not. They are upper-mid-carders, because that's exactly where the match will take place at the Victory Road PPV as well.



Never said it was the best system, to be employing – just that it was innovative. I'm not a fan of it personally, but the competitors compete against one another for each others spots. For instance, if Joe is seeded at #9 and Kaz is at #10 and Kaz beats Joe, the two swap spots. If Sting is at #2 and loses, I presume he drops out of contention as he has over the last few weeks. If Wolfe is at #5 and loses to a #10 ranked Angle, Wolfe moves to #6 (and every competitor below him moves down a rank as well) and Angle moves up one.

Seems relatively simple to me – just confusing to keep track of.

I already explained why some guys seeded where they did, anyway – it wasn't based purely off the votes of the public. Those were only a small factor int he process. The "Championship Committtee" of Bischoff, Hogan and Carter also factored in various other statistical aspects including wins/losses record and "relevance".

Nail. On. The. Head.

TNA doesnt get the credit it deserves; and neither does the E. When they both get it wrong you'd have to be under a rock to not know - but when they get it right? Nah, the IWC are the ones hiding under rocks at that point. Its pathetic. Cant be a worker, or a ref or a ring announcer or the guy who sets up the chairs or a guy who sets up the ring or a guy who gets the Dudleys their donuts, so they spend the energy saved from NOT having what it takes to be one of these things -- and they use it to shit on anyone who does.

Jealous, bitter, silly, irrelevant little "human beings"

I dont hate my heroes - why does the IWC act like they do?

Cue: "I love the business"

save it - then shuvit

Good post op and good points well made Its damn real

 

[MisterRob]

For what, a few segments here and there? No way in hell any Knockouts performance at any time every drew a single angle with Angle. No way on earth. I'd bet a vital body part on that, because as far as bets go, that's a sure bet.

When Gail Kim and Awesome Kong were at the top of the Knockouts division they were the highest rated segment, whether it was a match or otherwise, on the entire Impact show. Week after week. You can go back and look it up, and then you can cut off that vital body part of yours.

Kurt Angle is the biggest draw in TNA – bar none. Has been since he debuted in the company and will continue to be for the foreseeable future.

Prove it.

Tell me, what exactly are TNA burying that people want to see right now – other than all the "young guys" in the title scene at the same time while all the "veterans" are sent packing because "no one needs them, anyway"?

Burying might be a strong word, but Impact’s focus is clearly not on what people want the focus to be on. Desmond Wolfe was voted, by a massive majority, as the guy the FANS wanted to see. What happened? He’s given a title shot only to be jobbed out and then week after week he’s jobbed and made to look like a second rate talent. The guys one of their top talents and they’re not giving him the chance he’s proven by the fans reactions, by the matches he has, by every measuring stick you could use, to be fully capable of stepping far higher then he’s being allowed right now.

The Motorcity Machine Guns may be getting a title shot at the next PPV, but where’ve they been for the past month? What have they been doing for the past seven months? It’s quite likely, by TNA’s track record, that they’re going to job to Beer Money and then drift back down into obscurity and occasional use just like in the past. Even though they’re one of the top teams in the business and are exactly what the fans, the very demographic TNA should be going after in their ‘adult’ direction, want to see.

Beer Money is possibly the top tag team in the business right now and they’ve been used as nothing but second rate bullies for months now. They’ve lost consistently and been doing absolutely nothing. Sure they’ve been used in the past few weeks, they’re getting a shot at the tag team titles, and all we can hope is that they’re actually used from here on out to build the tag team division back up. But they may very likely just hold the titles and then drift along doing very little, despite my hopes.

Sarita, Hamada, and other past Knockouts are exactly what the fans want to see. Yet they’re never even used accept to put someone over on occasion. This young movement you claim is happening in the main event is quite misleading… considering in the past few months the main event has consisted of RVD, Sting, AJ Styles, and now Ken Anderson, Abyss and Jeff Hardy. RVD is going to be 40 in December, Sting is 51, Abyss is 36 and Ken Anderson is 34. Those aren’t exactly young wrestlers. So really only less then half (or half if you’re really pushing it) are actually part of any youth movement you could claim to be happening. And it was proven by the first ranking system where the fans voted who the fans that watch TNA wanted to see and Abyss and Sting were at the very bottom of that interest, yet they still have been pushed in the main event above others who the fans want to see more.

And what veterans have really been sent packing? The Nasty Boys? Because Scott Hall left on his own because of his continuously reoccurring issues. Sting, Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Jeff Jarrett, they’re all still key players in the main storylines of TNA and in fact get more television time then the rest of the roster consistently.

The difference between the IC title and the US/TV titles is simple – the IC title is an upper-mid-card championship, and the US title is a lower-mid-card title. Simple as that. Historically speaking, guys on the verge of the main event or guys taking a break from it were the ones carrying the IC belt, and guys on the verge of elevating themselves up the card into IC title contention were the ones carrying the US/TV titles.

Wrong. The last five Intercontinental champions have been Rey Mysterio, Chris Jericho, John Morrison, Drew McIntrye and now Kofi Kingston. Rey Mysterio and Chris Jericho were obviously already World champions and just buying time during their reigns. John Morrison, Drew McIntrye and Kofi Kingston have all, you could argue, been developing with the hope they could be future main eventers. Now how successful Morrison and McIntyre were in that test is debatable, but it’s clear the Intercontinental title is being used as a stepping stone to see what potential those wrestlers have.

But what about the last five US Champions? You have Kofi Kingston (who is now once again the Intercontinental champion), so as you can see he’s gone back and forth between the Intercontinental title and the US title. The Miz with two different reigns, someone who is clearly at the top of most people’s lists when it comes to one of the next break out stars and wrestlers being groomed for the main event (in fact he’s the majority’s vote to win Money in the Bank and likely be a next World champion). You have Bret Hart (former World champion, reign was a throw away one), and then you have R-Truth, who is just as much on the same level as a John Morrison or Drew McIntyre right now. You also have Matt Hardy and MVP who are former US champions and at different times in the past few years have been groomed towards the main event but never quite reached it. MVP was certainly being groomed in hopes of being a main event star in past years, and definitely during his time as US champion.

So no, the two titles are being used for the very SAME things right now and are on par with one another as you can see by the current champions holding each title, the Miz and Kofi Kingston.

The US title in WCW is not the same as the US title in the WWE. The US title in WCW was what the IC title is in the WWE, but since the fusion the IC title has been the second tier strap where the US title has been a tier below. Fact.

Not a fact, as I just proved.

False. The fact the X Division has only produced those three as the types who went on to main event – and technically you can eliminate Daniels from the conversation seeing as he never won the WHC, and had only a handful of shots at it to begin with – is proof positive that they are in fact the exception and not the rule. There are far more cases of guys like Low Ki, Jerry Lynn, Chris Sabin and others being heralded for their work in that division for a reason – they defined it. AJ and Joe simply re-defined it (momentarily) during their tenures there.

Who cares if Daniels didn’t ever win the World Heavyweight championship? You can’t write him off based on that. He was competing for the top title, was in feuds over the top title, and therefore was in the main event at those times. That’s like saying every Intercontinental champion who got a shot and never actually won the World title can be written off in any arguments about the Intercontinental title being used as the second tier championship in the company. That’s entirely flawed logic.

You’re also forgetting Kaz, a former X Division champion who has been pushed to towards the top several times unsuccessfully. But they’ve still tried. Jay Lethal was also X Division champion and is now in one of the top feuds/storylines and is clearly being groomed as a potential main eventer down the road. So what you seem oblivious to is guys that can be viewed as possibly future main eventers and even World champions such as the Pope, Jay Lethal, Kaz, Jeff Hardy, Desmond Wolfe, Kaz (to some people), Eric Young (to some people) have or could easily fit into the X Division. That’s along with former and current main event talent like AJ Styles, Samoa Joe and Daniels. Hell, even Robert Roode or James Storm if they were singles stars could fit into the X Division and both are arguably possible future World champions. RVD, the current World champion would’ve even fit into the X Division at one time.

Hell, I’d even say Doug Williams, the current X Division champion, has the qualities to be a World champion if given the chance.

And yet you seem to wrongly assume the X Division is some WWE throw back to the Cruiserweight division. You seem to downplay the lineage and the potential of the X Division, so brainwashed by what it’s become and what those who are holding it back want you to believe it is. When you compare all those wrestlers, all the X Division’s lineage, and the fans behind it, the Global Championship which has been used as nothing but a prop by veterans or been held by meaningless wrestlers like Rob Terry, then there’s no comparison which one would be more beneficial as the second tier title in TNA.

You seem to assume that every future World champion has to win or compete for the X Division title, as if every former or current World champion in WWE has been or competed for the Intercontinental championship. That’s just short sightedness, because those wrestlers (which are NOT the majority but in fact the minority) can easily by pass the X Division title and be built up to the World title in other ways, as guys like Hernandez, Matt Morgan and Abyss have who haven’t gone anywhere near the Global title.

Had the X Division title been such a propelling second-tier title, why didn't guys like Christian Cage, Jeff Jarrett, Monty Brown, Kevin Nash, Rhino or Abyss (among countless others) who all main-evented for TNA at one point or another in their careers ever compete for it when they were no longer in WHC title contention?

Because why did guys like this NEED to compete for that title after being World champion? You act as if you need to be in some title feud to be relevant or be developing as a wrestler. There’s many, many feuds and wrestlers who are nowhere near a title between their reigns as World champion.

Why didn't Scott Steiner or Booker T ever compete for it for that matter?

When did Scott Steiner even compete for the TNA World title?
Booker T made himself a prop title (one that is entirely meaningless right now) so he didn’t need to.

Maybe because despite the popular moniker of being a division "without limits", it is in fact "limited" by it's historical nature, as it tended to require a particular skill-set that allowed for more high-flying and technical wrestling for it's credibility to be taken seriously?

As I just proved to you above, the majority of wrestlers who are being developed around the main event or who could be future main eventers in the works all can fit into or have fit into the X Division. That destroys your argument right there mister short sightedness.

…and you wonder why people hate the X Division right now? Look at who's champion – Douglas Williams – a guy who's by nature the total opposite of what a traditional X Division wrestler was. I personally enjoy Williams, but I see him very much so as a transitional champion that can allow for a redefinition of what it mean to be an X Division star where TNA can rebuild their incredibly dry bed with fresh new talent. Perfect segway to sign a Brian Danielson or a Tyler Black.

People hate the X Division right now because it’s been dragged down, changed entirely, and fallen from the heights it was once at. That has everything to do with the booking, the creative team, and the powers that be, and nothing to do with the wrestlers involved in the division right now. Maybe you haven’t been paying attention (the one thing you must not pay attention to in TNA obviously) to the constant praise Doug Williams gets as X Division champion. In fact, most people who slam everything to do with Impact on a regular basis still consistently give praise to Doug William and his current angle despite everything else on the show that’s horrible in their eyes.

Unfortunately, the nature in which it was brought into the company didn't allow for it to ever vault itself above the X Division title in terms of aptly applying itself to a specific division in the company, and by allowing Eric Young and Rob Terry to hold it, they subsequently made an already strained situation worse.

Excuses aside, it’s a meaningless title.

If you base it off it's debut, yes, but an upper-mid-card title would benefit TNA more than a lower-to-mid-card title in the X Division when you consider the roster itself. Most of the roster don't' particularly qualify for traditional X Division lure, and because they don't, having them compete for it would be relatively pointless.

Wrong. See above.

Certainly not out of the realm of plausibility to convert the Global Title so it's more relevant than it's debut. See my Seven Ways* Thread for further on that.

I’d rather not. Putting effort into trying to bring prestige and importance to a meaningless title that has no history is silly when compared to simply fixing the X Division which has value and lineage behind it.

Which is what makes them upper-mid-card. Main event, by definition is the close of the show. It's rare the close of a TNA program features Sting & Jarrett at this point – it almost always includes some variation of RVD, Hardy, Anderson, Styles, Beer Money, Inc., etc.

I guess you missed the shows from a month ago when Sting was competing for the World title. Hell, the Slammiversary PPV even ended with the Sting/Jarrett angle!

Sting & Jarrett can be main-eventers, but in this case they are not. They are upper-mid-carders, because that's exactly where the match will take place at the Victory Road PPV as well.

Right, because when main eventers from RAW or Smackdown aren’t competing for the World title that month and are down the card on PPVs extra until they are competing for the title again they’re suddenly NOT main eventers. Sound logic there.

Never said it was the best system, to be employing – just that it was innovative. I'm not a fan of it personally, but the competitors compete against one another for each others spots. For instance, if Joe is seeded at #9 and Kaz is at #10 and Kaz beats Joe, the two swap spots. If Sting is at #2 and loses, I presume he drops out of contention as he has over the last few weeks. If Wolfe is at #5 and loses to a #10 ranked Angle, Wolfe moves to #6 (and every competitor below him moves down a rank as well) and Angle moves up one.

It’s not innovative. It’s not as if no one’s ever used a ranking system before. Hell, NWA and Ring of Honor both have or do use a ranking system.

And Angle’s ‘angle’ is the only time that claim of yours is true, unless you can prove to me how some of the others wrestlers have moved ahead of others by beating anyone at all.

I already explained why some guys seeded where they did, anyway – it wasn't based purely off the votes of the public. Those were only a small factor int he process. The "Championship Committtee" of Bischoff, Hogan and Carter also factored in various other statistical aspects including wins/losses record and "relevance".

So pretty much they choose who they want to be where they want. I gotcha.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

When Gail Kim and Awesome Kong were at the top of the Knockouts division they were the highest rated segment, whether it was a match or otherwise, on the entire Impact show. Week after week. You can go back and look it up, and then you can cut off that vital body part of yours.

Yeah – week-after-week? Show me. I highly – and I mean highly – doubt that Gail Kim/Kong ever out-drew anything with Kurt Angle's name attached to it.

Prove it.

I'm not doing your work for you – prove he's not without using baseless rhetoric like overall ratings that can't possibly be an indictment on an individual.

Burying might be a strong word, but Impact’s focus is clearly not on what people want the focus to be on. Desmond Wolfe was voted, by a massive majority, as the guy the FANS wanted to see. What happened? He’s given a title shot only to be jobbed out and then week after week he’s jobbed and made to look like a second rate talent. The guys one of their top talents and they’re not giving him the chance he’s proven by the fans reactions, by the matches he has, by every measuring stick you could use, to be fully capable of stepping far higher then he’s being allowed right now.

God forbid youth ever be built slowly, or worse yet – that a heel actually loses.

Since when do fans know what they want, anyway? Fans know what they want when they're told what they want for the most part. While fans do drive products, so too does creative.

Wolfe will have plenty of time to take a much more prominent role in TNA in the future anyway. Let's not sit here pretending that a bad stretch is going to equate the end of Wolfe or TNA for that matter. That's exactly the doomsday drama I'm trying to dispel from this TNArmageddon forum.

The Motorcity Machine Guns may be getting a title shot at the next PPV, but where’ve they been for the past month? What have they been doing for the past seven months? It’s quite likely, by TNA’s track record, that they’re going to job to Beer Money and then drift back down into obscurity and occasional use just like in the past. Even though they’re one of the top teams in the business and are exactly what the fans, the very demographic TNA should be going after in their ‘adult’ direction, want to see.

Off television for some reason or another. Don't agree with it at all, but the fact they're still getting the title shot they earned is quite an achievement in TNA who are notorious for "Kazarianing" title shots that wrestlers/teams earn.

Beer Money is possibly the top tag team in the business right now and they’ve been used as nothing but second rate bullies for months now. They’ve lost consistently and been doing absolutely nothing. Sure they’ve been used in the past few weeks, they’re getting a shot at the tag team titles, and all we can hope is that they’re actually used from here on out to build the tag team division back up. But they may very likely just hold the titles and then drift along doing very little, despite my hopes.

Second-rate bullies that just won the right to face the MCMG at Victory Road by defeating Ink Inc. – the most "up and coming" tag team in TNA right now – and the former tag-team champions The Band the week prior. I'd say that's fairing pretty well, no? They're also getting pushed as a part of Fortune to boot. Sounds nothing like obscurity to me. Anything to due with that scrub Ric Flair sure as shit ain't worth more than pigs spit, eh?

Sarita, Hamada, and other past Knockouts are exactly what the fans want to see. Yet they’re never even used accept to put someone over on occasion. This young movement you claim is happening in the main event is quite misleading… considering in the past few months the main event has consisted of RVD, Sting, AJ Styles, and now Ken Anderson, Abyss and Jeff Hardy. RVD is going to be 40 in December, Sting is 51, Abyss is 36 and Ken Anderson is 34. Those aren’t exactly young wrestlers. So really only less then half (or half if you’re really pushing it) are actually part of any youth movement you could claim to be happening. And it was proven by the first ranking system where the fans voted who the fans that watch TNA wanted to see and Abyss and Sting were at the very bottom of that interest, yet they still have been pushed in the main event above others who the fans want to see more.

Good for those fans. Tell them to go watch Shimmer with all 7 of it's other fans across the globe. Women's wrestling doesn't draw. It never has, and it never will, so Sarita, Hamada and past Knockouts don't matter.

Second, who gives a fuck how old someone is so long as they can still go? Talent is talent. I'm much more interested in watching a geriatric Flair take on Lethal in a well-built and well-thought-out culmination than I am in watching some entirely random X Division match between Amazing Red and Shark Boy. I don't' care how many flips either do – neither tells a story. Flair/Lethal, for example, does.

And what veterans have really been sent packing? The Nasty Boys? Because Scott Hall left on his own because of his continuously reoccurring issues. Sting, Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Jeff Jarrett, they’re all still key players in the main storylines of TNA and in fact get more television time then the rest of the roster consistently.

Hall didn't "leave on his own", he was let go of, as were the Nasty Boys, Waltman and Morley.

Secondly, as I noted just prior, Sting/Jarrett tells a story, as does Flair/Lethal – much more so than does some meaningless Knockouts match based around the same feud that's been the focus of TNA's Knockouts Division for what feels like two full years now – The Beautiful People v. everyone else.

You may not be interested in wanting to see that type of thing, and that's your prerogative, but I am, as are well over a million other fans on a weekly basis. I'm sure you'll yet again revert to condemning that number as damning prophecy about the decay that will become of TNA because they don't have the same privileges the WCW did with regard to a seemingly endless supply of money, or the WWE/F and its' two-decade long legacy, as you usually do, but that doesn't change the fact that there is a very measurable amount of interest in TNA's product right now.

Wrong. The last five Intercontinental champions have been Rey Mysterio, Chris Jericho, John Morrison, Drew McIntrye and now Kofi Kingston. Rey Mysterio and Chris Jericho were obviously already World champions and just buying time during their reigns. John Morrison, Drew McIntrye and Kofi Kingston have all, you could argue, been developing with the hope they could be future main eventers. Now how successful Morrison and McIntyre were in that test is debatable, but it’s clear the Intercontinental title is being used as a stepping stone to see what potential those wrestlers have.

But what about the last five US Champions? You have Kofi Kingston (who is now once again the Intercontinental champion), so as you can see he’s gone back and forth between the Intercontinental title and the US title. The Miz with two different reigns, someone who is clearly at the top of most people’s lists when it comes to one of the next break out stars and wrestlers being groomed for the main event (in fact he’s the majority’s vote to win Money in the Bank and likely be a next World champion). You have Bret Hart (former World champion, reign was a throw away one), and then you have R-Truth, who is just as much on the same level as a John Morrison or Drew McIntyre right now. You also have Matt Hardy and MVP who are former US champions and at different times in the past few years have been groomed towards the main event but never quite reached it. MVP was certainly being groomed in hopes of being a main event star in past years, and definitely during his time as US champion.

So no, the two titles are being used for the very SAME things right now and are on par with one another as you can see by the current champions holding each title, the Miz and Kofi Kingston.

I'm not talking about the last five champions. Look over the history of the title before the US title was brought into the company when WCW was acquired in 2001 as I asked you to initially. Look at the guys who held each title respectively in the WWE/F and in WCW before the titles became a part of the same program – both were upper-mid-card titles.

Something you again fail to even note on (a common trait with your replies) is the notion I posted about the XD being "limited" despite it's moniker of being a division without limits by it's penchant for promoting high-flying, speed-based technical wrestling that usually features a high-spot or two to raise the energy levels of the building at any given time.

Titles in general tend to be classed, which is why it often takes a tremendous amount of work and dedication from wrestlers who develop their niche in any given division to actually break beyond it – especially into the main-event.

Not a fact, as I just proved.

See above.

Who cares if Daniels didn’t ever win the World Heavyweight championship? You can’t write him off based on that. He was competing for the top title, was in feuds over the top title, and therefore was in the main event at those times. That’s like saying every Intercontinental champion who got a shot and never actually won the World title can be written off in any arguments about the Intercontinental title being used as the second tier championship in the company. That’s entirely flawed logic.

I do, because he was a "main evener" for all of two months. Prior to that he was a full-fledged upper-mid-carder, so I absolutely can "write him off" because of that. If Mr. Perfect – arguably the best IC champion of all-time – never won a WHC (which he did not) and subsequently only competed in perhaps a handful of WHC matches, how is it "logical" to refer to him as a main-eventer? The main event is primarily based around the top title in the company, which is almost always the World Heavyweight Championship.

You’re also forgetting Kaz, a former X Division champion who has been pushed to towards the top several times unsuccessfully. But they’ve still tried. Jay Lethal was also X Division champion and is now in one of the top feuds/storylines and is clearly being groomed as a potential main eventer down the road. So what you seem oblivious to is guys that can be viewed as possibly future main eventers and even World champions such as the Pope, Jay Lethal, Kaz, Jeff Hardy, Desmond Wolfe, Kaz (to some people), Eric Young (to some people) have or could easily fit into the X Division. That’s along with former and current main event talent like AJ Styles, Samoa Joe and Daniels. Hell, even Robert Roode or James Storm if they were singles stars could fit into the X Division and both are arguably possible future World champions. RVD, the current World champion would’ve even fit into the X Division at one time.

See above. Kaz has not become a main-eventer, and neither has Lethal. Lethal is being pushed, as is Kaz, but neither is at the same level as guys like Sting, Angle, AJ, Anderson or Hardy for example.

Again – I'm not saying it's impossible for often heavily characterized wrestlers to break molds they fit for years – I am saying, however, that it's improbable to expect it often.

Hell, I’d even say Doug Williams, the current X Division champion, has the qualities to be a World champion if given the chance.

I agree, but it's important to note that Williams' run with the XD isn't the a long-term solution by any means. His course is being written right now, and when he's run it, he'll likely move up in the card to the upper-mid-card again, or potentially be moved into the main event. He has the potential, absolutely.

[/QUOTE]And yet you seem to wrongly assume the X Division is some WWE throw back to the Cruiserweight division. You seem to downplay the lineage and the potential of the X Division, so brainwashed by what it’s become and what those who are holding it back want you to believe it is. When you compare all those wrestlers, all the X Division’s lineage, and the fans behind it, the Global Championship which has been used as nothing but a prop by veterans or been held by meaningless wrestlers like Rob Terry, then there’s no comparison which one would be more beneficial as the second tier title in TNA.[/QUOTE]

No, I don't assume the XD is some "WWE throwback to the Cruiserweight division", for two reasons:

1. The Cruiserweight Division was a WCW product, not a WWE product. It wasn't even a WWF product.

2. I noted that like the Cruiserweight division, the XD is generally classed by Cruiserweight-style wrestlers more-so than non-Cruiserweight style wrestlers.

And again, as I noted, unfortunately, the nature in which the Global Title was brought into the company didn't allow for it to ever vault itself above the X Division title in terms of aptly applying itself to a specific division in the company, and by allowing Eric Young and Rob Terry to hold it, they subsequently made an already strained situation worse.

You seem to assume that every future World champion has to win or compete for the X Division title, as if every former or current World champion in WWE has been or competed for the Intercontinental championship. That’s just short sightedness, because those wrestlers (which are NOT the majority but in fact the minority) can easily by pass the X Division title and be built up to the World title in other ways, as guys like Hernandez, Matt Morgan and Abyss have who haven’t gone anywhere near the Global title.

No, I don't, actually. If anything, you do. You're the one telling me that the XD title is being used poorly because it's not being put on guys who can bring star power to it.

What I noted, was that like the IC title did for the WWE/F prior to the acquisitions of the WCW's World Heavyweight Championship (which in and of itself eliminated a critical level of legitimacy for the IC title) and US Title, the Global Title should have been able to do had TNA booked it correctly. How it was born is irrelevant – regardless of the fact that it was a prop toy Booker T pinned on himself – the man makes the title, the title doesn't make the man. Had they simply refocused the emphasis on the title (like I noted in my Seven Ways* thread) to give it meaning, the name-power of the wrestlers who were going after it alone would have forced fans to forget about it's meaningless birth in the first place.

Because why did guys like this NEED to compete for that title after being World champion? You act as if you need to be in some title feud to be relevant or be developing as a wrestler. There’s many, many feuds and wrestlers who are nowhere near a title between their reigns as World champion.

Because those are the exact types of wrestlers who would historically vied for the title had it been such propelling second-tier title like you keep harping on.

No one said you need to be in a title hunt to be relevant, but top-of-the-card stars need to compete for titles every few months or so to retain/regain their momentum.

When did Scott Steiner even compete for the TNA World title?
Booker T made himself a prop title (one that is entirely meaningless right now) so he didn’t need to.

Steiner v. Samoa Joe at Sacrifice 2007 was for the TNA WHC.

As I just proved to you above, the majority of wrestlers who are being developed around the main event or who could be future main eventers in the works all can fit into or have fit into the X Division. That destroys your argument right there mister short sightedness.

Short-sighted? Yeah, says the guy using examples like Doug Williams as reason why the XD can house future WHC's

Date back and tell me who from the XD in 2003, 2004 or 2005 could have vied for a WHC run at any point in their near futures. Fuck it, man – even 2006 or 2007 for that matter.

People hate the X Division right now because it’s been dragged down, changed entirely, and fallen from the heights it was once at. That has everything to do with the booking, the creative team, and the powers that be, and nothing to do with the wrestlers involved in the division right now. Maybe you haven’t been paying attention (the one thing you must not pay attention to in TNA obviously) to the constant praise Doug Williams gets as X Division champion. In fact, most people who slam everything to do with Impact on a regular basis still consistently give praise to Doug William and his current angle despite everything else on the show that’s horrible in their eyes.

The heights when it featured high-flying entertainers you mean? Gee, would ya look at that - and here I though you were telling me that it's a propelling tier that sets up future stars for the WHC?

People who give Williams praise (myself included) also realize his run has a very obvious expiration date that will come to fruition – likely when creative look to reestablish the "excitement" of the XD again.

Excuses aside, it’s a meaningless title.

Excuses? You mistaking logical explanations out to be excuses as a means to discredit my posts because you don't have an answer for them is the only excuse I see here.

I’d rather not. Putting effort into trying to bring prestige and importance to a meaningless title that has no history is silly when compared to simply fixing the X Division which has value and lineage behind it.

Titles, like wrestlers, can be re-defined, and if the ability to repackage a guy into something greater than what he was is any indication of the power of that, the same would hold true for a title were the attempt to recreate it actually performed.

I guess you missed the shows from a month ago when Sting was competing for the World title. Hell, the Slammiversary PPV even ended with the Sting/Jarrett angle!

Didn't miss a thing. Sting was in the main-event last month. This month, he's not. This month, he (and Jarrett) are in the upper-mid-card. The main event, by definition, is the last match of the night, which is traditionally based around the WHC.

Right, because when main eventers from RAW or Smackdown aren’t competing for the World title that month and are down the card on PPVs extra until they are competing for the title again they’re suddenly NOT main eventers. Sound logic there.

Technically speak, yes. Doesn't mean they aren't main-event material, and doesn't mean they aren't main-event types, but at that moment in time they are not in the main event – they are in the upper-mid-card.

It’s not innovative. It’s not as if no one’s ever used a ranking system before. Hell, NWA and Ring of Honor both have or do use a ranking system.

For their heavyweight championships?

And Angle’s ‘angle’ is the only time that claim of yours is true, unless you can prove to me how some of the others wrestlers have moved ahead of others by beating anyone at all.

Do your own research, man – even if I found it for you, you'd dismiss it as "whatever, you're wrong anyway".

So pretty much they choose who they want to be where they want. I gotcha.

 

[MisterRob]

Yeah – week-after-week? Show me. I highly – and I mean highly – doubt that Gail Kim/Kong ever out-drew anything with Kurt Angle's name attached to it.

The August 21st TNA Impact drew a 1.1. The highest rated segment of the night was for the Gail Kim vs. Awesome Kong street fight, which earned a 1.20 rating in the seventh quarter-hour. The main event ladder match between Kurt Angle and A.J. Styles dropped to a 1.15. Are you ready to rid yourself of a pivotal organ, yet?


The March 8th Impact :

Q1: 0.99 rating - Hulk Hogan, Abyss, A.J. Styles, Ric Flair, Sting appearance

Q2: 0.98 rating - Sting and Dixie backstage, Styles and Flair, X Division setup and match

Q3: 1.00 rating - Continuation of X Division match, Shannon Moore run-in, Dixie Carter, Beautiful People tease.

Q4: 1.07 rating – Knockouts Tag Title match, Tazz teases RVD, RVD vs. Sting

Q5: 1.07 rating - Sting and Hogan confrontation, Kevin Nash, Eric Young, Scott Hall, Sean Waltman

Q6: 1.03 rating - Young vs. Waltman, Ken Anderson and Kurt Angle

Q7: 0.95 rating - Bubba The Love Sponge with Hogan, Beer Money vs. Jeff Jarrett

Q8: 0.76 rating - Beer Money vs. Jarrett conclusion, Hulk and Brooke Hogan, Hogan and Abyss vs. Flair and Styles

Overrun: 1.01 rating - The bulk of the main event match, various run-ins, Jeff Hardy save

As you can see the highest ratings of the show started with the Beautiful People and continued through the Knockouts tag title and then dropped for Young vs. Waltman and Kurt Angle’s segment!


The June 1st Impact

Q1: 0.82 rating - Jeff Hardy and Mr. Anderson promo, interrupted by A.J. Styles, Ric Flair, Beer Money, and Desmond Wolfe.

Q2: 0.93 rating - Ink Inc. vs. The Band vs. Team 3D, Kazarian promo with Flair and Styles, RVD backstage.

Q3: 0.90 rating - Kazarian vs. Jay Lethal with Flair, Styles attacks Lethal, Shannon Moore laid out

Q4: 0.97 rating - Abyss vs. Orlando Jordan with Desmond Wolfe, Chelsea, and Rob Terry, RVD backstage

Q5: 0.94 rating - RVD calls out Sting, Hulk Hogan with Anderson, Puppet from Half Pint Brawlers, Roxxi interview

Q6: 1.07 rating - Beautiful People vs. Taylor Wilde and Sarita with Puppet, Kurt Angle on commentary

Q7: 1.01 rating - Desmond Wolfe vs. Jeff Hardy, Matt Morgan promo

Q8: 1.03 rating - Morgan calls out Angle, Slammiversary match announcements, A.J. Styles vs. Mr. Anderson with Beer Money and Anderson

Once again the Knockouts were the highest rated part of the show. The segment between Morgan and Angle did less. Three examples right there that prove your logic about Kurt Angle is wrong AND your short sightedness and ignorant dismissal of the benefits of the Knockouts is also wrong.

God forbid youth ever be built slowly, or worse yet – that a heel actually loses.

Yes, because when the heel always loses and the faces have already proven better then them then that CLEARLY makes people want to pay their good money to see a PPV and watch the heel finally get his, right? Even though he’s already been beaten countless times and revenge has already been gotten!

Since when do fans know what they want, anyway? Fans know what they want when they're told what they want for the most part. While fans do drive products, so too does creative.

What are you Vince McMahon? Maybe this logic, the same logic TNA clearly has, is exactly why they aren’t GROWING their audience.

Wolfe will have plenty of time to take a much more prominent role in TNA in the future anyway. Let's not sit here pretending that a bad stretch is going to equate the end of Wolfe or TNA for that matter. That's exactly the doomsday drama I'm trying to dispel from this TNArmageddon forum.



Off television for some reason or another. Don't agree with it at all, but the fact they're still getting the title shot they earned is quite an achievement in TNA who are notorious for "Kazarianing" title shots that wrestlers/teams earn.

Plenty of time.. says who? What if Wolfe suffers an unexpected and serious career ending injury? What if they keep saying they have plenty of time and keep pushing it back more and more and he ends up never getting his shot because he’s always over looked? When you have someone with IT and you have someone who the audience is calling for and wants then common sense and even history has proven that you jump on it and take advantage of it when Wolfe’s hot.

This is exactly what TNA did with Samoa Joe and look at what happened there? They waited and they waited and by the time they finally gave Samoe Joe his chance they’d waited too long.

It’s definitely much better to have RVD vs. Sting in the main events rather then Desmond Wolfe. Much better still to have Abyss in the main events instead of Desmond Wolfe. Of course!

Second-rate bullies that just won the right to face the MCMG at Victory Road by defeating Ink Inc. – the most "up and coming" tag team in TNA right now – and the former tag-team champions The Band the week prior. I'd say that's fairing pretty well, no? They're also getting pushed as a part of Fortune to boot. Sounds nothing like obscurity to me. Anything to due with that scrub Ric Flair sure as shit ain't worth more than pigs spit, eh?

They beat Ink Inc.!? No way. Well they’re definitely made then. Although they beat them only because of Team 3D’s distraction and cheating with a bottle of beer, they aren’t bad or ‘good’ enough to just outright beat Ink Inc.

I’m even more impressed that they beat the Band, comprised of an old Kevin Nash who can barely walk let alone get in the ring and wrestle, and Eric Young whose been so hot and cold and off and on that no one can take him seriously anymore. Way to build to that epic tag team championship match!

And then even better, Beer Money’s part of Fourtune, where Ric Flair degrades them and tells the world they aren’t even close to lacing the boots of the original Four horsemen and then steals the spotlight for the entire segment (every segment). What a push!

And I’m a Ric Flair fan!

Good for those fans. Tell them to go watch Shimmer with all 7 of it's other fans across the globe. Women's wrestling doesn't draw. It never has, and it never will, so Sarita, Hamada and past Knockouts don't matter.

Clearly they aren’t watching Impact, since Impact isn’t even doing the numbers they were last year or the year before, long before Hogan/Bischoff came on board and back when the Knockouts actually were being used and allowed to be a credible division.

Second, who gives a fuck how old someone is so long as they can still go? Talent is talent. I'm much more interested in watching a geriatric Flair take on Lethal in a well-built and well-thought-out culmination than I am in watching some entirely random X Division match between Amazing Red and Shark Boy. I don't' care how many flips either do – neither tells a story. Flair/Lethal, for example, does.

The only reason there’s entirely random X Division matches, or why X Division matches are now meaningless, is because creative has made that the case. Why? Because they keep dropping the fucking ball, time and time again.

Hall didn't "leave on his own", he was let go of, as were the Nasty Boys, Waltman and Morley.

Sure he did. He was having issues again and he talked with Dixie and asked for some time to take care of his problems. She said that herself in an interview. Waltman got Hepatitus C or whatever the hell it is, otherwise he’d still be on the show and still be involved with the Band.

So Nasty Boys and Sean Morley are your examples of them getting rid of the old guys? Nice.

Secondly, as I noted just prior, Sting/Jarrett tells a story, as does Flair/Lethal – much more so than does some meaningless Knockouts match based around the same feud that's been the focus of TNA's Knockouts Division for what feels like two full years now – The Beautiful People v. everyone else.

Once again that’s entirely creative’s fault and no one else’s.

You may not be interested in wanting to see that type of thing, and that's your prerogative, but I am, as are well over a million other fans on a weekly basis. I'm sure you'll yet again revert to condemning that number as damning prophecy about the decay that will become of TNA because they don't have the same privileges the WCW did with regard to a seemingly endless supply of money, or the WWE/F and its' two-decade long legacy, as you usually do, but that doesn't change the fact that there is a very measurable amount of interest in TNA's product right now.

And once again you use silly logic like comparing TNA’s woes to not having the money of WCW (even though TNA does have Panda Energy and their money backing them), or WWE’s success behind them, while ignoring the fact that because of TNA’s creative direction among so many other things they’ve actually LOST some of the audience they had a year ago.

I'm not talking about the last five champions. Look over the history of the title before the US title was brought into the company when WCW was acquired in 2001 as I asked you to initially. Look at the guys who held each title respectively in the WWE/F and in WCW before the titles became a part of the same program – both were upper-mid-card titles.

Why would I give a shit about what those championships were ten years or more ago? All that matters is what those championships are and what they’re being used for NOW. And they’re both being used to build future talent towards the main event scene. They’re both being used to develop the future stars of the company.

Something you again fail to even note on (a common trait with your replies) is the notion I posted about the XD being "limited" despite it's moniker of being a division without limits by it's penchant for promoting high-flying, speed-based technical wrestling that usually features a high-spot or two to raise the energy levels of the building at any given time.

Oh right, because instead of having a division that’s something unique and different from everything else, you’d rather have the Global championship built into a division that is exactly the same as any other division whether it be in TNA, WWE, or some other wrestling company.

And since when is what you described the X Division promoted as being any less then what AJ Styles or Jeff Hardy or the Pope or Desmond Wolfe’s style and matches ARE? Oh my god, let’s allow some of our top talent to wrestle that way, but we don’t want to promote a division or a championship around that style! What are we thinking?

I do, because he was a "main evener" for all of two months. Prior to that he was a full-fledged upper-mid-carder, so I absolutely can "write him off" because of that. If Mr. Perfect – arguably the best IC champion of all-time – never won a WHC (which he did not) and subsequently only competed in perhaps a handful of WHC matches, how is it "logical" to refer to him as a main-eventer? The main event is primarily based around the top title in the company, which is almost always the World Heavyweight Championship.

I think you’ve forgotten what the argument of this even was. It was about the mid-card championship being used to build potential stars of the future. Both Daniels and Mr. Perfect were used in that way and could have been just that if creative had actually used them differently. Not everyone who reaches or even remains on the main event level always wins the World championship. Look at Roddy Piper, Ted Dibiase, and the list goes on and on.

See above. Kaz has not become a main-eventer, and neither has Lethal. Lethal is being pushed, as is Kaz, but neither is at the same level as guys like Sting, Angle, AJ, Anderson or Hardy for example.

But they’re building both of them towards BEING future stars. And they’ve both been X Division champions. I really don’t think this is rocket science. They both are on the level of competing and vying for an Intercontinental championship, and therefore the X Division (since they’ve both held it) could be just that.

I agree, but it's important to note that Williams' run with the XD isn't the a long-term solution by any means. His course is being written right now, and when he's run it, he'll likely move up in the card to the upper-mid-card again, or potentially be moved into the main event. He has the potential, absolutely.

You just proved my point that the X Division championship could be the second tier title by this very paragraph alone! The current X Division champion, Doug Williams, by your own words, could be pushed up the card and even reach the main event AFTER he’s done with the X Division title.

Thanks for proving my argument right.

No, I don't assume the XD is some "WWE throwback to the Cruiserweight division", for two reasons:

1. The Cruiserweight Division was a WCW product, not a WWE product. It wasn't even a WWF product.

2. I noted that like the Cruiserweight division, the XD is generally classed by Cruiserweight-style wrestlers more-so than non-Cruiserweight style wrestlers.

Maybe you’ve forgotten the fact that the Cruiserweight division was implemented in the WWE and so was the Cruiserweight championship for a time? The fact they bought the rights to it, implemented it into their product, and used/promoted it for years as part of their product, therefore makes it during that time a WWE product.

And again, as I noted, unfortunately, the nature in which the Global Title was brought into the company didn't allow for it to ever vault itself above the X Division title in terms of aptly applying itself to a specific division in the company, and by allowing Eric Young and Rob Terry to hold it, they subsequently made an already strained situation worse.

Right, so you agree that the Global championship has no value and it’s history is meaningless. So why go to the effort of trying to change that and build it from basically scratch into something meaningful when you can just take something that does have a history and a sense of meaning and just fix it in the X Division?

What I noted, was that like the IC title did for the WWE/F prior to the acquisitions of the WCW's World Heavyweight Championship (which in and of itself eliminated a critical level of legitimacy for the IC title) and US Title, the Global Title should have been able to do had TNA booked it correctly. How it was born is irrelevant – regardless of the fact that it was a prop toy Booker T pinned on himself – the man makes the title, the title doesn't make the man. Had they simply refocused the emphasis on the title (like I noted in my Seven Ways* thread) to give it meaning, the name-power of the wrestlers who were going after it alone would have forced fans to forget about it's meaningless birth in the first place.

See above.

Because those are the exact types of wrestlers who would historically vied for the title had it been such propelling second-tier title like you keep harping on.

But at THAT time TNA and it’s creative direction wasn’t USING the title or the division in that way. So how is that even a point in what the X Division COULD be, as it has been in the past in it’s beginnings?

Steiner v. Samoa Joe at Sacrifice 2007 was for the TNA WHC.

Oh, that must’ve been forgettable.

Short-sighted? Yeah, says the guy using examples like Doug Williams as reason why the XD can house future WHC's

No, actually I’d use examples such as AJ Styles, Samoa Joe and Christopher Daniels. And examples such as Kazarian and Jay Lethal who are constantly being pushed and attempted to be built into those future stars/champions.

In fact, Kurt Angle himself has criticized in interviews the fall of the X Division and how much it’s gone downhill since its peak around 2005. He’s also said that he would like to join the X Division and help it create its own stars. So if Kurt Angle believes in the X Division, it’s potential, and the future stars that can be made in it then I think his view is a lot more valid then yours.

Date back and tell me who from the XD in 2003, 2004 or 2005 could have vied for a WHC run at any point in their near futures. Fuck it, man – even 2006 or 2007 for that matter.

Sure; AJ Styles, Samoa Joe and Christopher Daniels were part of the X Division in and before 2005. Hector Garza could’ve, if they had wanted to go that route. Bobby Roode was technically in the X Division level for years, he competed in World X Cups and he then went on to compete for the World Heavyweight championship in his first singles run.

In 2004 CM Punk was in TNA and certainly was on the X Division level. Imagine if they had been able to hold on to him, had built him all of these years as a TNA wrestler, where he could be right now? He’s a former multi-time World champion in the WWE.

Jeff Hardy competed in the X Division and vied for the X Division championship in 2004 and look at where he is now?


Sabu competed in the X Division and vied for the championship against Samoa Joe in 2006. He could’ve been a World champion if they had wanted to go that direction for any reason.

You also seem to forget that Kurt Angle actually won the X Division title from Samoa Joe and was in fact X Division champion for a time. So yeah, I’m pretty sure your argument about the X Division not being able to be the second tier title or being unable to be anything but a haven for Cruiserweights is wrong and unfounded.

The heights when it featured high-flying entertainers you mean? Gee, would ya look at that - and here I though you were telling me that it's a propelling tier that sets up future stars for the WHC?

See above.

Titles, like wrestlers, can be re-defined, and if the ability to repackage a guy into something greater than what he was is any indication of the power of that, the same would hold true for a title were the attempt to recreate it actually performed.

But there’s no need to do that when you can just rebuild the X Division championship and it’s division.

For their heavyweight championships?

Yep. In fact TNA seems to have stolen something from Ring of Honor. After Jim Cornette left TNA he went to Ring of Honor since he’s been there he implemented a ranking system called the “Pick Six” for contenders for the world championship. This was back in 2009.

Do your own research, man – even if I found it for you, you'd dismiss it as "whatever, you're wrong anyway".

I don’t need to do any research, I’m TELLING you that there isn’t any rhyme or reason behind it. You can either accept that or prove me wrong, as I’ve proven you wrong on everything in this post.

 

[Chrome]

OK firstly at very least raw is 3.3 and at very best tna is 1.0. Just had to state that. And the problem is they are going backwords. They had numbers in the mid 1's and one point and now can hardly get a 1. And They may have only been around for 1 month, but superstars, which has been around for a year is beating tna every once in a while.

I agree TNA does not get enough credit, its an alternative, does some innovative things with matches and promos (not scripted) and DOES have talent. Just needs solid booking.. In regards to "Ratings"

TNA is its own product that has done a lot to make a name for itself and has gradully gotten each fan one by one. I think ratings will come in once they figure out a game plan with out to promote it outside of Spike TV, (note this is how WWE / WCW got noticed a lot in the 90's they were on virtually every channel.. TNT, TBS, TNN, CNN, UPN/CW, USA, etc etc (comericals etc) Currently this is not taking place .. also they need a lot of buzz and consistant booking.. (Hello Paul Heyman)

I do think that TNA doesn't get enough cedit for what it has accomplished. In a short amount of time starting out on a weekly PPV to now on TV every week, and the signings they have made, and the short schedule making it more appealing to vet wrestlers and up coming wrestlers alike to make a name for themselves without going through the road burn out that the WWE is known to put there employee's through. All in all I think TNA is on the right path and should stay the course.. there next step should be to get a head booker and stop building guys up for 3 months then letting them fade away.. they need to be more consistant and be DIFFERENT from the WWE.


I think people put to much STOCK and Hypocrisy to it...

The same people that say TNA sucks! and WWE is better based on ratings.. are the same people that say WCW sucked.

But according to this graph below... WWE is pulling near the same ratings that WCW did before it was bought.. Soooooooooooo I don't understand the stance these fans take on using Ratings to say one company is better than another...

On the other hand no matter how well TNA does,.. there will always be haters.

 

[JackBurton]

The August 21st TNA Impact drew a 1.1. The highest rated segment of the night was for the Gail Kim vs. Awesome Kong street fight, which earned a 1.20 rating in the seventh quarter-hour. The main event ladder match between Kurt Angle and A.J. Styles dropped to a 1.15. Are you ready to rid yourself of a pivotal organ, yet?

\

Do you even understand what the word "draw" means in the context of pro wrestling? Woman in barely nothing isnt a draw - its a TV side show that, as you have shown, garnered a mere .3 more than the nearest highest segment. They didn't draw the next PPV crowd - or the buys. Put simply they didn't attract any money, or "draw" any money. Ratings mean jack shit and are only used by people with a little or no tenable position on the subject. Case in point; Your babbling on about the woman, if TNA started pushing their knockouts more prominently, you'd accuse them of ripping off Vince.

Flip flop any more and you could be an X-Division champ one day

Seems the basis of your point (this point; which you quickly moved onto after calling TNA "idea pirates") is that everything TNA did before say, when Hogan came in, was big business and they should go back to it. That about right? 400 people getting in for free and a average rating of 0.9 isnt big business. Frankly the alternative to what they are doing now - as you present it - is a scary proposition. And I for one dont want to watch 8 matches a night, all the same style with all teh wrestlers who look exactly alike and work exactly alike? How come the cooky cutter thing is good in the X-division or ROH but if Vince does it - its a disgrace?

Go ahead and tell me all the X-Division guys dont all look alike. Gimme a laugh

 

[GameOver]

You can't make a thread like this, ahving only watched 4 weeks of TNA lol
There problems/incosistancies have been there since day one, and 8years later the same problems that IMO hold them back are still there.

If anything as Rammsteingerteen said, it was OK back in the day, but recently it's gotten alot worse in many ways. Some areas have improved i'm not gonna debate that.

as for the ratings debate, TNA at best drew level with the WWE Superstars ratings. Hell NXT gets more ratings and that show sucks big time. lol

Then we have the Supertar ratings, well it's obvious thats jsut a work and who you all vote on is purely coincidental as to who gets the push. Much like the fan voted matches in WWE that are obviously complete bullshit that anyone voted for those stipulations or people to compete.

It's just a way to make people think they are involved when they are in reality no more involved then normal. As was proved by Desmon'd's Wolfe's big push that has resulted in him beiung pushed back to the undercard at best and Sting got a huge number of votes to get the title shot while he was bagging everyone? Please...

and these guys have to prove themselves all over again results in RVD getting a title shot the first week he arrives

/quote
1) Money doesn't grow on trees. If you don't have a million bucks, you can't crap 'em out of your ass to finance a company. If it were that easy TNA wouldn't need the iMPACT! Zone. And they could pull out a hell of a lot more advertising outside of Spike TV. /quote

So that's why they keep hiring new people on a weekly basis and get rid of people that actually do some good? Get a clue.

The list goes on and on.

No point turning this into a well WWE does this aswell, we know they do and they get criticized for it but there's so much more happening over there. And this is about why TNA gets critized

Im in hopes that they don't go under, purely cause it's something to watch on PayTV late saturday nights. and any alternative is better than nothing, but there's no way in hell it's gonna get anywhere near catching up or becoming mega global at the rate they are going they are still a long long way off that.