Can you say "Epic"? Now it's no secret that the Action in the Diva's division has really gone down. In real terms it really has straight up switched from the "Women's Division" to the "Divas Division". I remember that back then, even in Jobbing matches in the division, that they lasted more that 5 minutes and gave you good action. When Jazz returned and faced Molly Holly (Molly Holly jobbed), they had a good 10 minute match, granted most of it was Jazz punishing Molly....but it was entertaining...not dominates for 5 minutes only for the other one to win with one move.
This match would be great. Two dominate divas with great ability squaring off in the ring. Too bad it wont happen, since they are currently teaming.
Any Divas matches you wanna see? And whom would you like to see WWE pick up for the Divas division and what not?
Eventually it will happen, particularly if WWE continues the present storyline of the two of them laying waste to their respective brands. If the company follows through, it could make women's wrestling relevant again. Then, when both women are at the top, one will inevitably do a face turn.....and you'll see them in the ring against each other. If WWE plays this correctly, it might be a PPV-worthy match.
Meanwhile, I see no other special diva vs diva matches on the horizon. If done right, everything will revolve around Beth and Natalya for awhile......of course, with Kelly trying to hold off the two of them.
Why? Because they both do moves? The crowd would have no reason to care. At least not at the moment. Neither is all that good on the mic, they both have a similar look, similar in ring strengths, similar charisma. Usually people who are practically mirros of each other don't have good matches together because they aren't foils. It's not a yin and a yang, it's like putting the same side of two magnates against each other.
How would it make women's wrestling relevant again? Relevant to the IWC that things more moves=good match? Yea, but who gives a shit, smarks understand less about wrestling and the business of it than the average fan. Women's wrestling has really always been about the same as far as "overness". Except for maybe when Mickie James and Trish had their amazing story. Other than that it's always been about the same. The general public doesn't care anymore about 2 moderately attractive women doing moves worse than men than they do about 2 former models doing moves worse than someone with parkinsons. It's about story, not moves.
Natalya vs Beth Phoenix needs to happen sometime down the line, they are both very good mat wrestlers and I don't agree with the poster up here, I strongly believe that those two could have a helluva of a match if WWE let them.
If they stick with that Divas of Doom type of team and if they really show dominance and power like no one, and when they have to battle each other to reach the Championship, you are damn right that people would crave to see the match!
They have chemistry together, and I'm sure that they would have chemistry against each other.
Everyone has to remember that when it comes to the WWE's women or "diva" divisions they had to scrap all their plans a couple of months ago when Kharma came out telling the world of her pregnancy and that she was going to take some time off because its a high risk pregnancy. With that being said Kelly Kelly was thrown in there just because she has got a marketable look and has gotten publicity outside of the WWE. Now they are going to recreate that dominating diva that they had planned with not one but two divas. I personally think this is just a filler storyline until Kharma is able to come back. They will tear through the other divas and like someone else had mentioned hopefully put on a couple of good matches against one another.
I don't want this to come across as my saying your full of s**t, because there are probably many examples you can come up with, but can you name an example where that was the case? Because all I'm thinking of are matches like Shawn Micheals vs Marty Janetty, Bret Hart vs Owen Hart, Randy Savage vs Ricky Steamboat, Hogan vs Warrior, Undertaker vs Kane, Juventud vs Mysterio, Raven vs CM Punk and the fantasy match of Stone Cold vs Goldberg.
How would it make women's wrestling relevant again? Relevant to the IWC that things more moves=good match? Yea, but who gives a shit, smarks understand less about wrestling and the business of it than the average fan. Women's wrestling has really always been about the same as far as "overness". Except for maybe when Mickie James and Trish had their amazing story. Other than that it's always been about the same. The general public doesn't care anymore about 2 moderately attractive women doing moves worse than men than they do about 2 former models doing moves worse than someone with parkinsons. It's about story, not moves.
And that story could be great. Did you read my post in the summerslam match thread between Phoenix & Kelly Kelly? Those two could have a feud where they enjoy wrestling each other because they are the only other "wrestler" in the division and they welcome the competition because it helps them keep sharp. They could both be in an alliance and in a feud as long as that 'feud' has an overtone of professional respect.
I believe that WOULD do quite a bit for the division as a whole... however as far as I'm concerned (and this just won't happen) they would have to fire the rest of the ho's and bring in real warrior women, not necessarily wrestlers but fighters of some type.
Some scrappy, wiry, heinous b**ch would be a great addition as long as she sold her character so that people believed that if she were to jump on the back of some big monster like Taker, or Kane or someone that she'd tear the skin right off his back before he could toss her off and crush her. Kinda like Grace Jones in Conan The Destroyer.
For my money, I'm just glad the the divas division seems to have some sort of storyline for the first time since Kharma left. Until she returns, they need to do something. What better way to do that than put the focus on 2 of the women that can actually wrestle? I think this is looking like an extension of this new "Reality Era" movement that's been going on where some backstage politics and common complaints about the product have been brought to the forefront. Since Trish and Lita left, people have complained about the lack of wrestling in the women's division and how it's just eye candy with no real purpose. Both Beth and Natalya have brought those points up when they turned heel, so we're heading in a good direction.
As for what I'd like to see...for a while I want to see these two dominate the divas division. One of them doesn't have to win the title right away, but in time. After awhile, I'd like to see the return of a face LayCool to combat the DoD. Michelle was clearly one of the best women in the ring and Layla has improved a good bit as well. I'd have this start around Survivor Series and go through the Rumble or so. At that point, Beth and Natalya start having issues and it culminates in the best matchup possible in the division for WM28.
I don't want this to come across as my saying your full of s**t, because there are probably many examples you can come up with, but can you name an example where that was the case? Because all I'm thinking of are matches like Shawn Micheals vs Marty Janetty, Bret Hart vs Owen Hart, Randy Savage vs Ricky Steamboat, Hogan vs Warrior, Undertaker vs Kane, Juventud vs Mysterio, Raven vs CM Punk and the fantasy match of Stone Cold vs Goldberg.
And that story could be great. Did you read my post in the summerslam match thread between Phoenix & Kelly Kelly? Those two could have a feud where they enjoy wrestling each other because they are the only other "wrestler" in the division and they welcome the competition because it helps them keep sharp. They could both be in an alliance and in a feud as long as that 'feud' has an overtone of professional respect.
I believe that WOULD do quite a bit for the division as a whole... however as far as I'm concerned (and this just won't happen) they would have to fire the rest of the ho's and bring in real warrior women, not necessarily wrestlers but fighters of some type.
Some scrappy, wiry, heinous b**ch would be a great addition as long as she sold her character so that people believed that if she were to jump on the back of some big monster like Taker, or Kane or someone that she'd tear the skin right off his back before he could toss her off and crush her. Kinda like Grace Jones in Conan The Destroyer.
Okay, HBK was a heel claiming he led the team and that he doesn't need Janetty, Janetty was a face trying to prove otherwise (plus I just watched the match at RR 1993, HBK carry job. Janetty could do moves but had no personality and HBK's selling and showmanship are way better, janetty didn't get screwed out of being big, he just wasn't very good other than KEWL MOVEZ). Hart was the big brother, Owen was the younger brother trying to get out of the spotlight. Savage vs Steamboat, huge long story behind them, completely different characters. Savage is over the top and crazy, Steamboat is stoic. Hogan vs Warrior was a passing of the torch. Undertaker vs Kane was Undertaker not wanting to fight his brother and finding out about kane's crazy past. juvy vs Mysterio wasn't that good. raven vs Punk was about Raven being a drunk and reminding Punk of his father. Austin vs Goldberg never happened. So really none of those matches are good because it's 2 guys, mirrors of each other. they're good because the characters are foils. There is conflict.
Rethink what I'm saying. I'm not saying guys with similar styles have bad matches. You need a compelling STORY to make it work. These guys may have had similar styles, but their characters were totally different in their motivation. It's why it worked, their characters were foils for each other. Without the emotion, it's just 2 people trading moves.
a feud of professional respect is boring as fuck. No one would give a shit about it. If people cared about that, then in 2002 when ROH pushed it, they would have gotten bigger. Instead ROH didn't get bigger until they added stories.
"Real warrior women". WWE cares about selling tickets, not counting moves. This is why you see models and women's wrestlers. You need a mix.
People buy smaller, model-looking women's wrestlers all the time. I see fans liking AJ and the smaller NXT girls. They look athletic and you buy that they're skilled. Kelly Kelly seemed to win a lot of people over at Summerslam (crowd reactions, not the bullshit here).
Beth and natalya are too similar. Not just in their in ring, but their presense, their character, their mic skills, everything. No one gives a shit about 2 people (much less women) having a straight up respectful, professional wrestling match.
Maybe what you do is you have natalya eventually feel sorry for the divas. Maybe she admits that she was jaded but when she really looks at it, they work hard and try to get better. This pisses off Phoenix, then they start feuding.
There MUST be a conflict. They should be foils of each other, not mirrors. At least in their characters. Not to mention, in the ring it is usually better too.
Okay, HBK was a heel claiming he led the team and that he doesn't need Janetty, Janetty was a face trying to prove otherwise (plus I just watched the match at RR 1993, HBK carry job. Janetty could do moves but had no personality and HBK's selling and showmanship are way better, janetty didn't get screwed out of being big, he just wasn't very good other than KEWL MOVEZ). Hart was the big brother, Owen was the younger brother trying to get out of the spotlight. Savage vs Steamboat, huge long story behind them, completely different characters. Savage is over the top and crazy, Steamboat is stoic. Hogan vs Warrior was a passing of the torch. Undertaker vs Kane was Undertaker not wanting to fight his brother and finding out about kane's crazy past. juvy vs Mysterio wasn't that good. raven vs Punk was about Raven being a drunk and reminding Punk of his father. Austin vs Goldberg never happened. So really none of those matches are good because it's 2 guys, mirrors of each other. they're good because the characters are foils. There is conflict.
Rethink what I'm saying. I'm not saying guys with similar styles have bad matches. You need a compelling STORY to make it work. These guys may have had similar styles, but their characters were totally different in their motivation. It's why it worked, their characters were foils for each other. Without the emotion, it's just 2 people trading moves.
Ah sorry I misunderstood you, but then... So what DO you mean when you say two people who are mirrors of each other can't put on a good match? Because after you eliminate athletic ability, build, skill & gimmick, you have storytelling left, which seems like what you're talking about, but uh... how do you have two mirrors of each other in a storytelling aspect in pro-wrestling? If Kane & Undertaker don't fit the bill then I don't see how anyone could.
I asked in my first post for an example, I think even now more than ever I could really use that example. (And something other than Naty & Beth)
a feud of professional respect is boring as fuck. No one would give a shit about it. If people cared about that, then in 2002 when ROH pushed it, they would have gotten bigger. Instead ROH didn't get bigger until they added stories.
That's not necessarily true. Hogan vs Warrior was very much that type of feud. Hitman vs Piper was another one. Think face vs face feuds you see from time to time. They work. They can't be done very often but they work. You certainly couldn't center a whole organization around it, that's for sure. Inject some nasty, ugly, heinous b**ch character into the mix, like Luna Vachon's old character, to spice things up after a match or two into the Phoenix v Naty feud, and you'd have a great trio to watch in the ring.
Now, I still don't watch TNA, mostly because I never know when it's on around here, and I've only been watching the WWE since Bret Hart's return, so it's not the most qualified of observations on my part, BUT I haven't seen a face vs face type feud in a damned long time. I certainly don't see why Phoenix vs Naty couldn't be a good feud if they stuck to a more tradition mat technician mixed with feats of strength style match. I mean, I'd love to see Naty do a several second long suspended suplex to Phoenix. Hell, the more suplexes the better IMO. Slow down the match the typical divas do, stop the hurricanranas and all that bull crap and all that flippity spinning crap that reminds me of my six year old saying "Hey Dad! Look what I can do!" and then he jumps of the bed and says tada! I'd like to see one of them try to pin with a german suplex. Hell why couldn't Phoenix use Goldberg's Jackhammer? And seeing Naty do the surfboard a while back was a badass submission hold. Maybe I am totally out in left field here, but I think they could do it, and in the process bring a lot of legitimacy to the diva's division.
"Real warrior women". WWE cares about selling tickets, not counting moves. This is why you see models and women's wrestlers. You need a mix.
People buy smaller, model-looking women's wrestlers all the time. I see fans liking AJ and the smaller NXT girls. They look athletic and you buy that they're skilled. Kelly Kelly seemed to win a lot of people over at Summerslam (crowd reactions, not the bullshit here).
I know... I know, I just personally have a real hard time taking them seriously, unless they look like Grace Jones. Holy s**t she was a b**ch on wheels.
Beth and natalya are too similar. Not just in their in ring, but their presense, their character, their mic skills, everything. No one gives a shit about 2 people (much less women) having a straight up respectful, professional wrestling match.
Maybe what you do is you have natalya eventually feel sorry for the divas. Maybe she admits that she was jaded but when she really looks at it, they work hard and try to get better. This pisses off Phoenix, then they start feuding.
There MUST be a conflict. They should be foils of each other, not mirrors. At least in their characters. Not to mention, in the ring it is usually better too.
See here's where you and I appear to be split. You seem as though you think you can't have respect for your opponent if you're going to have conflict. But Piper vs Hart was a great match and told a great story in the ring, especially with Piper teasing heel moves like bashing Hitman over the head with the bell, but in the end he didn't, and the two went in friendly towards each other, and left the same way and it's one of my very favorite matches from either Piper or the Hitman. It was precisely because of the mutual respect they had for each other, and the great match they put on, and the great story they told in the ring.
OK so maybe asking that same kind of performance from Beth & Naty is a bit much... but then, maybe not. I think at the end of the night if they were to put on a clinic, like they certainly have in their capabilities to do if they were treated with the professional respect given to men, it would get over.
Perhaps what they really need to do is get on the mic and verbally attack the male viewers for not giving them the respect they deserve and treating them like eye candy that gets boring once they try to prove they can wrestle. They can tell the audience they're there to wrestle for the female audience to prove that there are great wrestlers in the divas division that aren't ****es. Yeah I know, they can't go that far because that would bury the Kelly Kelly's, but you get my drift. I think that'd split the audience such that the women would cheer their little butts off for Phoenix & Naty, and I bet ultimately it would gain them the respect of the men too, as long as they didn't botch.
Ah sorry I misunderstood you, but then... So what DO you mean when you say two people who are mirrors of each other can't put on a good match? Because after you eliminate athletic ability, build, skill & gimmick, you have storytelling left, which seems like what you're talking about, but uh... how do you have two mirrors of each other in a storytelling aspect in pro-wrestling? If Kane & Undertaker don't fit the bill then I don't see how anyone could.
I asked in my first post for an example, I think even now more than ever I could really use that example. (And something other than Naty & Beth)
That's not necessarily true. Hogan vs Warrior was very much that type of feud. Hitman vs Piper was another one. Think face vs face feuds you see from time to time. They work. They can't be done very often but they work. You certainly couldn't center a whole organization around it, that's for sure. Inject some nasty, ugly, heinous b**ch character into the mix, like Luna Vachon's old character, to spice things up after a match or two into the Phoenix v Naty feud, and you'd have a great trio to watch in the ring.
Now, I still don't watch TNA, mostly because I never know when it's on around here, and I've only been watching the WWE since Bret Hart's return, so it's not the most qualified of observations on my part, BUT I haven't seen a face vs face type feud in a damned long time. I certainly don't see why Phoenix vs Naty couldn't be a good feud if they stuck to a more tradition mat technician mixed with feats of strength style match. I mean, I'd love to see Naty do a several second long suspended suplex to Phoenix. Hell, the more suplexes the better IMO. Slow down the match the typical divas do, stop the hurricanranas and all that bull crap and all that flippity spinning crap that reminds me of my six year old saying "Hey Dad! Look what I can do!" and then he jumps of the bed and says tada! I'd like to see one of them try to pin with a german suplex. Hell why couldn't Phoenix use Goldberg's Jackhammer? And seeing Naty do the surfboard a while back was a badass submission hold. Maybe I am totally out in left field here, but I think they could do it, and in the process bring a lot of legitimacy to the diva's division.
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I know... I know, I just personally have a real hard time taking them seriously, unless they look like Grace Jones. Holy s**t she was a b**ch on wheels.
Perhaps you're right, but let me introduce myself, I'm nobody. Nice to meet you.
That would work for me too, but I don't think it's necessary.
See here's where you and I appear to be split. You seem as though you think you can't have respect for your opponent if you're going to have conflict. But Piper vs Hart was a great match and told a great story in the ring, especially with Piper teasing heel moves like bashing Hitman over the head with the bell, but in the end he didn't, and the two went in friendly towards each other, and left the same way and it's one of my very favorite matches from either Piper or the Hitman. It was precisely because of the mutual respect they had for each other, and the great match they put on, and the great story they told in the ring.
OK so maybe asking that same kind of performance from Beth & Naty is a bit much... but then, maybe not. I think at the end of the night if they were to put on a clinic, like they certainly have in their capabilities to do if they were treated with the professional respect given to men, it would get over.
Perhaps what they really need to do is get on the mic and verbally attack the male viewers for not giving them the respect they deserve and treating them like eye candy that gets boring once they try to prove they can wrestle. They can tell the audience they're there to wrestle for the female audience to prove that there are great wrestlers in the divas division that aren't ****es. Yeah I know, they can't go that far because that would bury the Kelly Kelly's, but you get my drift. I think that'd split the audience such that the women would cheer their little butts off for Phoenix & Naty, and I bet ultimately it would gain them the respect of the men too, as long as they didn't botch.
My point is that two people who look alike, act alike, and wrestle alike, wrestling in a "professional rivalry" won't draw. You can say Piper vs Hart but how many people have the mic skills of Piper?
Here's what I'd rather see. Beth/Natalya vs Kelly Kelly/some other bimbo, before the match, Beth/Natalya take out the other bimbo. Kelly Kelly goes into the handicap match and gets her ass kicked but fights valiently, after a while, Trish Stratus comes down and helps out KK. Story is, Trish says "I used to be a "bimbo" then I learned to wrestle. Why can't you accept that Kelly Kelly is trying hard?" Or something like that. That is way more interesting than Beth and Natalya wrestling each other a bunch of times in a professional rivalry.
There needs to be an emotional response. Really, pro wrestling has NEVER been about straight up wrestling. It started when the hometown guy tried to knock off the traveling "unbeatable" wrestler. For a short time, like Hackenschmidt vs Gotch it was more competition based, but even when you get to Sammartino and the more successful eras, it's heel vs face. Sammartino vs Kowalski anyone?
The only time I can ever think of a real money making match where it was competition based and not passing of the torch or tag wrestlers or anything would be Lou Thesz vs Rikidozan. But even that had emotion to it because it was the percieved best US wrestler vs the father of Puroesu.
My point is that you can't just have two people, mirrors of each other, fighting each other in a professional rivalry for competition's sake. It needs to have a reason.
I admit I was wrong when I said that matches between guys with similar builds and styles never work. There are some instances. However, most of the time the better matches are between opposites. Either in character or in ring style or both. Bret Hart (technician) vs Steve Austin (brawler), Bryan Danielson (mat wrestler) vs KENTA (striker), Flair (womanizer) vs Steamboat (family man), Punk (underground Jesus) vs Cena (company man). All of these have fundamental differences in either their ring style, character, or both. Even minor classics like Malenko vs Mysterio usually have some sort of major difference between the wrestlers.
I guess I kinda see what you're saying... I think for me though, I just can't respect someone that's been Ms America trying to say she's tough enough, when obviously she's not.
Stratus was a body builder. I know her wiki calls her a "fitness model" but she was about as much a fitness model as John Cena was.
To be fair though, HBK vs Taker was competition based. I know they were very different characters though. And passing of the torch matches aren't real, not in terms of kayfabe at least, those are billed as competitive respect type matches. I get what you're saying though.
I hold to my opinion that it would be good for me (was it good for you?). But perhaps if it were to get over with the mainstream public they'd have to start the match out the way I described, professional respect, bla bla, but then have a run in with a Kong or some other beastmode female and pick them both apart at the end of the match before they team back up to fend her off to the outside of the ring. For me, it would kind of spoil it, but perhaps it would get over more with laymen.
Meh, anyways, good talking with you as always. Definitely one of the smarter and more educated fans on here.
beth vs natayla of course is a dream match in the divas divison but for me id also like to see beth vs khrama and natayla vs khrama i think it would be awesome and based off the current storyline going in the divas divison i think all 3 matches could happen in the future which would be awesome!
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Holy s**t she was a b**ch on wheels. 
