How Does Samoa Joe Get Back to the Main Event?

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

Successes at pulling off the elite badass character in wrestling:

And then there's.... Samoa Joe.

See the difference? The fact is he doesn't have "the look" to pull it off, he looks like your typical lazy ass who sits around playing Xbox all day, not some badass that can beat the hell out of people. There is a reason, a very obvious reason that gimmick has worked with Warrior, Goldberg, Lesnar and Batista while NOT working for Vader and Samoa Joe, but i'll let you figure out the reason. Like I said, it is pretty obvious.

The combination of his looks and his skill make him a badass. When you look at him you think, "Oh he's some fat dude He'll probably run out of gas within five minutes." And then Joe gets into the ring and performs all sorts of crazy stuff and beats the living daylights out of you within seconds. That is what makes him a badass. His looks are deceptive. He can move around fast, he is agile and he is strong. And that is something that every person who has seen TNA knows.

Seriously, I think people obsess a lot over his weight. It's NOT the reason why he is looking down the barrel right now. He is in that position due to having average mic skills and not being motivated enough at times. He should only try to lose weight if it starts affecting his performance. The Joe of 2005-08 was more or less of the same size or perhaps slightly leaner but certainly a hell lot more motivated and that showed in his performance.

And are you a dumbass? Vader did not work as a badass? Have you ever watched WCW in your life? Vader was a scary motherfucker who was a legit stiff guy and well known for hurting people. Have you never watched his matches against Mick Foley? I don't think you know anything about Vader at all and just mentioned his name because probably he was the first fat guy that came to your mind.

Seriously when I talk about look, its not just about the body, its the manner in which you carry yourself. That is what makes you a badass and Joe on his best day can definately be very good in that role.

 

[Fenris]

Joe on the other hand is not a guy I would want to be walking past in a dark alley. Joe seems to be the type that is legitimately willing and able to hurt you. All Warrior and Batista look like they could do is beat you in a bench-press competition, but if you said BOO loud enough they would jump out of there boots. In a MMA/Shoot fight type set-up I would bet the house that neither would survive one round against Joe.

I had to laugh at the first part. Jesus, what's this world coming to when the fat kid is intimidating? Anyways i'd GLADLY take that bed, although I likely wouldn't give tubs 'o fun 60 seconds against either one before they destroy him.

Mcmahon has ruined the minds of wrestling fans with his "overly-juiced-up man" fetish. Muscles and toughness do not necesarily go hand-in-hand.

It has nothing to do with McMahon. Huge blond guy trying to rip a ring apart= Believable badass. Large in great shape tattooed bald guy with a mean grimace= Believable badass. 6'3", 300lbs of pure hard work farm boy= Believable badass. 6'6", 300lbs of physically fit heavily tattooed angry son of a bitch= Believable badass. 6' tall obese 30 year old= Believable Best Buy employee/Weekend jobber at house shows.

That's just how life rolls. It's the same reason a guy like Eddie Guerrero at 5'6" tall could believably beat guys like Lesnar and adult fans bought it while a guy like Rey Mysterio gets laughed at when he does the same. You are selling a product. You are selling to the average that these guys are Athletes, that wrestling ISN'T something the random couch potato can do, only elite athletes with elite skills. That is what the average fan wants to see along with the drama and promos. They want to see athletic looking guys kick some ass. They DON'T want to be insulted by guys that look like they were picked up at Best Buy or McDonald's and made a wrestler or in Joes case some badass MMA type fighter that somehow manages to kick physically fit guys asses while he's blown up in the ring. Sure the IWC does, but not the average fan. That's just how life it is.

 

[Fenris]

The combination of his looks and his skill make him a badass. When you look at him you think, "Oh he's some fat dude He'll probably run out of gas within five minutes."

He looks like a fucking door greeter at Best Buy. When I look at Joe? First I laugh my ass off they portray him as a badass. Then I laugh my ass up when he, you know, DOES blow up in 5 minutes(or like Thursday's Impact as soon as he gets done waddling to the ring).

Seriously, I think people obsess a lot over his weight. It's NOT the reason why he is looking down the barrel right now. He is in that position due to having average mic skills and not being motivated enough at times.

His weight IS a big reason. Sorry, it's not PC to say but people ARE judged by appearances and lazy fatasses aren't looked at in the world as elite badasses. The new administration apparently understands that, thankfully.

He should only try to lose weight if it starts affecting his performance.

His gimmick is an elite badass athlete that rolls around in fucking spendex shorts. He should at least feign an attempt to get into SOME kind of fit shape and make it believable.

And are you a dumbass? Vader did not work as a badass? Have you ever watched WCW in your life? Vader was a scary motherfucker who was a legit stiff guy and well known for hurting people. Have you never watched his matches against Mick Foley? I don't think you know anything about Vader at all and just mentioned his name because probably he was the first fat guy that came to your mind.

Ahh the hilarity of this paragraph, a kid that was a fucking infant during that era going on about Vader like he knows what the fuck he's talking about. Yeah, i'm kind of familiar with WCW. I sorta started watching it in 1985 back when it was still JCP, before you were even alive and I kinda kept watching until Black Monday. Including the Vader era...

Ahh yes, the Vader era. This era was also known as the darkest part of WCW history. So utterly horrible WCW was drawing crowds of 200-400 for house shows(after nearly a decade of crowds of 40,000+), 1000-2500 for PPV's and TV with just as bad buyrates. Vader? He had alot to do with that. Bill Watts and Jim Ross had to get production to pipe in boo's for Vader because he literally got ZERO heat. He was some fat fuck in a stupid ass helmet noone cared about yet Jim Ross wanted pushed because "Leon White is an ex NFL linemen by gawd." Van Vader literally almost KILLED WCW. Not because he was so badass but because he fucking SUCKED and noone gave a shit about him. Jesus Christ El Gigante drew bigger reactions than Vader.

That is the reason I brought him up, not because I needed a random fatass. Because WCW went from doing GOOD numbers to almost dying becuse fans just didn't buy some 400lb fatass that couldn't even walk properly was this badass that could beat more physically fit and athletic guys with ease.

Seriously when I talk about look, its not just about the body, its the manner in which you carry yourself.

And seriously, the body DOES matter. ESPECIALLY a body that walks around in spandex bike shorts. Especially when the premise of the show is highly skilled athletes performing a sport. TNA and us fans want more viewers and to get bigger, right? Shoving Joe as a top guy isn't going to accomplish that. It's going to make people laugh and do the "this guy couldn't go against(insert known name here)" as they change the channel, likely for good.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

He looks like a fucking door greeter at Best Buy. When I look at Joe? First I laugh my ass off they portray him as a badass. Then I laugh my ass up when he, you know, DOES blow up in 5 minutes(or like Thursday's Impact as soon as he gets done waddling to the ring).

It must have been someone else who was wrestling 90 minute matches with CM Punk in ROH. Or going the distance with guys like Necro Butcher, Chris Daniels, AJ Styles and Bryan Danielson. Yeah, right on dude.

Joe's stamina is pretty unquestionable. The thing that you are interpreting as blowing up looks like a clear case of demotivation to me. If he hasn't blown up in the past with a more or less similar physique, why should he do now?

His weight IS a big reason. Sorry, it's not PC to say but people ARE judged by appearances and lazy fatasses aren't looked at in the world as elite badasses. The new administration apparently understands that, thankfully.

Probably to someone as shortsighted as you, weight might be a big issue. I look at what Joe brings to the table despite his weight. Yes, its a disadvantage because perception is a huge thing in wrestling and it isn't much good if you are percieved by the fans as a fatass.

However when you see a fatass flying around in the ring and beating people up ruthlessly and making them cry out in pain, you are bound to take that fatass seriously.

If you ask me it's his weight that makes Joe stand out. The fact that he can do all those things he does despite being a fatass makes him an impressive figure and someone who can inspire fear. Joe truly sinks in as a badass once you have watched him wrestle.

His gimmick is an elite badass athlete that rolls around in fucking spendex shorts. He should at least feign an attempt to get into SOME kind of fit shape and make it believable.

So let me get this straight. You believe that you cannot be a badass without being ripped. Well Joe was one of the most over guys in TNA in 2005. Remember all those "Joe's Gonna Kill You" chants? That pretty much shows that you can be a badass without possessing a ripped physique.

Ahh the hilarity of this paragraph, a kid that was a fucking infant during that era going on about Vader like he knows what the fuck he's talking about. Yeah, i'm kind of familiar with WCW. I sorta started watching it in 1985 back when it was still JCP, before you were even alive and I kinda kept watching until Black Monday. Including the Vader era...

Then you are the perfect poster child for the fact that watching a lot of wrestling does not equate to understanding wrestling.

Ahh yes, the Vader era. This era was also known as the darkest part of WCW history. So utterly horrible WCW was drawing crowds of 200-400 for house shows(after nearly a decade of crowds of 40,000+), 1000-2500 for PPV's and TV with just as bad buyrates. Vader? He had alot to do with that. Bill Watts and Jim Ross had to get production to pipe in boo's for Vader because he literally got ZERO heat. He was some fat fuck in a stupid ass helmet noone cared about yet Jim Ross wanted pushed because "Leon White is an ex NFL linemen by gawd." Van Vader literally almost KILLED WCW. Not because he was so badass but because he fucking SUCKED and noone gave a shit about him. Jesus Christ El Gigante drew bigger reactions than Vader.

That is the reason I brought him up, not because I needed a random fatass. Because WCW went from doing GOOD numbers to almost dying becuse fans just didn't buy some 400lb fatass that couldn't even walk properly was this badass that could beat more physically fit and athletic guys with ease.

Yes, and that had nothing to do with the fact that Ric Flair walked over to WWF along with the NWA title which was the biggest prize in the WCW at that point.

That move killed WCW, not Vader. If anything Vader managed to draw whatever little he could along with Sting and that was one of the major reasons why WCW stayed alive after such a huge shock. The Sting vs Vader feud is widely regarded as one of the best feuds of that era and Vader was sure as hell the biggest heel and a perfect foil to WCW's superhero babyface whom we know as Sting.

And then Vader went on to feud with Hulk Hogan and drew good numbers. Now don't say it was because of Hulk Hogan because even some of Hogan's feuds in WCW were not well recieved. You know, the ones with Butcher and Dungeon of Doom and the Alliance to end Hulkamania. These are the guys that sucked and therefore people were not interested in watching them even when they were facing Hogan. But people were interested in watching Hulk vs Vader, you know, because Vader did not suck.

Clearly Vader, a guy who strung together great feuds with two of the greatest babyfaces of the modern era to go along with a number of great feuds in Japan (where he was a huge draw) sucked as a badass heel.

And I'd like some proof on the piped boos part of your statement. I have never heard of any such bullshit

And seriously, the body DOES matter. ESPECIALLY a body that walks around in spandex bike shorts. Especially when the premise of the show is highly skilled athletes performing a sport. TNA and us fans want more viewers and to get bigger, right? Shoving Joe as a top guy isn't going to accomplish that. It's going to make people laugh and do the "this guy couldn't go against(insert known name here)" as they change the channel, likely for good.

Let us see what skilled athletes are supposed to do in pro wrestling. Wrestle entertaining, hard fought and sometimes long matches. Joe can do that. Perform outrageous spots and show off their athleticism. Joe can do that too. So how does that not make Joe a skilled athlete?

Now, it's not like Joe is good at everything. He is generic on the microphone, demotivated at times and even spotty in the ring on occasions. However when you talk of athleticism, you cannot discredit Joe. If you do so, it probably means you have not watched Samoa Joe wrestle a lot.

 

[A.T.Rowl]

There are many ways joe could be over again. He could fued with a bigman and go like three ppvs that would end in draws before a huge match at say final resolution from orlando. My best hope would be for it to be against the freak rob terry. He's the old guy not in a major storyline that has serious heel credibility

 

[Papa Pillman]

It has nothing to do with McMahon. Huge blond guy trying to rip a ring apart= Believable badass. Large in great shape tattooed bald guy with a mean grimace= Believable badass. 6'3", 300lbs of pure hard work farm boy= Believable badass. 6'6", 300lbs of physically fit heavily tattooed angry son of a bitch= Believable badass. 6' tall obese 30 year old= Believable Best Buy employee/Weekend jobber at house shows.

That's just how life rolls. .

That may be how "life rolls" in your eyes, where apparently like Vince Mcmahon you view wrestling (and apparently the real world) as an extension of your clear (suspect) obsession with heavily muscled men, but most people are not nearly as infatuated by other men's muscles.

You're the type that would look at Fedor and think he had no chance to beat the likes of Mark Coleman or Andre Arlovski. And you'd be dead wrong.

You're the type that would look at Roy Nelson and think he had no chance against the likes of Kimbo Slice; or that a guy like Ben Rothwell would have no chance against the likes of Krzystof Soszynski. And you'd be wrong.

Your own, perhaps unhealthy, infatuation with body builder type physiques is in no way a commentary on how everyone else sees the world.

Strong and agile man, with nearly unmatched skills, and a never-ending gastank, who threatens to kill you (and sounds like he might actually do it) = Believable Bad-ass(no matter what his bodyfat percentage is, or how delusional you are). Overly juiced-up pretty boy, who looks like he spends half his time in the gym and the other half in a gay bar, does not = believable bad ass. Sorry.

There is absolutely nothing "scary" about Dave Batista. Get over it.

 

[wrestlingfan]

Okay alot of guys are saying that Joe is faling because of his weight and he doesn't look believable. 1. Joe is not overweight as you claim him to be. At least when he wears a t-shirt you don't see a beer belly sticking out and 2. Since the current Joe doesn't seem to scare any of you guys, Let's go back to Joe Nation of Violence circa 2009, Which one seems scarier, A guy who's literally saying he will kill you or some roided up bodybuilder.

 

[New Hot Fed]

Successes at pulling off the elite badass character in wrestling:

And then there's.... Samoa Joe.

See the difference? The fact is he doesn't have "the look" to pull it off, he looks like your typical lazy ass who sits around playing Xbox all day, not some badass that can beat the hell out of people. There is a reason, a very obvious reason that gimmick has worked with Warrior, Goldberg, Lesnar and Batista while NOT working for Vader and Samoa Joe, but i'll let you figure out the reason. Like I said, it is pretty obvious.

Actually I think he looks like a weird mix of a samoan wrestler and a sumo wrestler and a shoot fighter. That's marketable if you use the right elements.

 

[New Hot Fed]

The truth is the Destination X PPV and brushing himself to the X division is not the worst thing for Joe. That's where he was at his best. Let him feud with these guys for a few months to show how great a wrestler he is.

And then let him with all his matchs after he's one out of the X Div. That simple.

 

[Havoc6241]

I had to laugh at the first part. Jesus, what's this world coming to when the fat kid is intimidating? Anyways i'd GLADLY take that bed, although I likely wouldn't give tubs 'o fun 60 seconds against either one before they destroy him.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a1f_1300117794

Yeah, the fat kid really isn't much of a threat to the bully.

 

[mlp420]

If this guys not destroying everybody on the roster, he's not being used right. I've never been crazy about wrestlers that need to always win and be dominant to get over. TNA should just send him back where they found him so we can be done with this already.

 

[He's Phenomenal]

Simply put...He doesn't. Samoa Joe just isn't a main eventer. He's being used exactly how he should be right now. A mid carder who wins and loses his fair share of matches. Joe should be used to put people over. I'm not saying he should permantly lose but there's no way he should be beating guys like Mr Anderson, Rob Van Dam, AJ Styles, Matt Morgan, Bully Ray etc. Samoa Joe just isn't on the same level as those guys.

The only way Samoa Joe could be a main eventer is if he went to ROH. They seem to push any old former TNA employee.

 

[Rasha]

Those of you in the "Joe needs to get in better shape" camp have a legitimate point. We've bashed Matt Hardy for this plenty over the last year, so no reason Joe should get a pass. He may have a more difficult time with it due to his ethnic background, but there have been Samoan/Tongan contestants on "The Biggest Loser" who become ridiculously skinny. Joe certainly could do better than he has.

That said, the crowd's that comparing him to a department store greeter and acting like he's not believable at all as a badass are morons. Ever seen a football offensive lineman out of uniform? They look fat and sloppy, but they would still probably beat the shit out of some of the most ripped linebackers. Despite his look, Joe has an intense and hard-hitting an offensive attack as any heavyweight in the game right now. If he improves his conditioning to be able to sustain longer matches, he can put on some great shows.

The bigger problem here is finding a good direction for the character and, mostly importantly, STICKING TO IT! Joe has been the most misused guy in TNA over the last few years, going all the way back to when he joined the Main Event Mafia. Joe should have been the modern day Goldberg; a force of nature who you loved watching destroy his opponents. He didn't need a big gimmick or awesome mic skills to get over.

If I was assigned with the "fix Samoa Joe" task, my first move would be to give him an enemy that people WANT to see destroyed. They tried that with the Pope feud but they never did a good enough job of building the story or making Pope hated. I know Joe has leaned more on the heel side recently with the Crimson and Kazarian squabbles, but he's still close enough to the middle that you can bounce him back reasonably.

There are plenty of ways you could quickly bounce Joe back into relevance. Maybe one night he starts into a promo about his place in TNA right now and gets quickly interrupted by a returning Ric Flair. Not that Flair would have any real interest in Joe at the moment, but just classic Nature Boy ego where he comes out when he wants because what he has to say is obviously much more important. I'd love to see a run-in between he and Flair where Ric uses his classic "fat boy" jab and maybe even compares him to Dusty Rhodes as another sloppy-looking guy he used to hate.

Of course, Joe goes off. Out runs Gunner to protect Flair. Later that night, it's Joe vs. Gunner and Flair interferes to help Gunner win. Now you're primed for Joe to be pissed at Immortal as a whole. Now he's a new ally who runs out to help Sting and Angle in the fight against the evil empire. Now Immortal sends Bully Ray to handle "the Samoa Joe problem." And now you've got Joe battling TNA's best heel in what would be a very solid feud, and a battle where the fans would LOVE to see Ray get beat down.

It's just that simple.

 

[snoopy]

I swear you people just don't listen to nothing that is being said while you watch the show do you!

They are clearly doing a Lack of Focus and Frustration storyline with Joe. I suggest you people go a listen to the Annoucncers As they talk about Joe and his building frustration!Even Kaz was saying Joe isn't himself and Joe said '' Who are you Tony Robbins". You people need to listen to story that's being told and maybe you won't be so misguided!

 

[The Mystocyst]

I swear you people just don't listen to nothing that is being said while you watch the show do you!

They are clearly doing a Lack of Focus and Frustration storyline with Joe. I suggest you people go a listen to the Annoucncers As they talk about Joe and his building frustration!Even Kaz was saying Joe isn't himself and Joe said '' Who are you Tony Robbins". You people need to listen to story that's being told and maybe you won't be so misguided!

Finally, someone who sees the bigger picture behind all this....

I think whether you guys believe it or not Joe is about to play a HUGE part in this BFG series, and it's gonna start right after destination x.

As for dest x itself, this storyline is gonna get his mind back to that "killer instinct" mentality where he's totally focused and looks as if his opponents are due for a hospital visit. I mean all these bar fights...Daniels and aj making him look like an afterthought...losing a match he should've "won" against Devon...I see kaz dominating early throughout the match and give him this "that's all u got Joe?" feel to it, and then it'll finally happen and he'll snap and get a submission victory. Then he'll get himself involved in the aj/daniels match and destroy both of them cause he's finally woken up.

As for the next 4 weeks of impact I wouldn't doubt in my mind that he could rack up 40 pts worth of submission victories for the series.

Of course there's always the latter where Joe continues to wander around in his current angle with still no direction cause tna have given up on him.

 

[A.T.Rowl]

I bet at the big Huntstville show on Aug.25 we will be hearing a lot of "JOE'S GONNA KILL YOU" I think the above posters are right that the big push is going to be starting very soon.

 

[Eerix12]

I love the joes out of shape posts its so funny haha have you seen the man in the ring he is the most agile big guy in wrestling today weight means absolutely nothing but anyway I think a big Samoa Joe heel turn is on its way

 

[Affliction]

lose some wight, mix up his in ring arsenal and try to develop a different gimmick other than "I'm an angry fat guy that thinks he's hot shit".
But the big problem with Joe now is that he looks like he isn't giving it his all. Probably has to do with the fact that he already held the world title...

Anyway, there are other people more deserving right now.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

Getting Samoa Joe back into the main event is simple.

You take Joe, and repackage him as the monster he once was. Have him go back to going undefeated for a couple months, allow him to kick peoples heads in with free will, make him seem once more like the "Samoan Submission Machine." Joe's credibility will be rebuilt, his stature in TNA will have rose once more to the point where he's in a formidable position to gain Championship matches.

They need to make Joe the one man wrecking machine, he stands by nobody, he has no friends. Joe just does what Joe used to do, and that's beat people up. Stick him against multiple members of Immortal, allow him to even revisit his angle with Kurt Angle from a few years ago and allow Joe to go undefeated so long that everyone waits for the person to possibly defeat him.

And then you take Crimson, who'll probably be undefeated for the next while to come. Crimson will eventually hold the TNA World Heavyweight Championship, quite sadly there is no preventing it. You pit one undefeated streak against another, and you allow Joe to defeat Crimson, capturing the TNA World Heavyweight Championship.

Does that put an older guy over a younger guy? Yes. But the thing is, Crimson is nowhere near as impressive as Joe is, Crimson will never be impressive, he'll never have a fanbase. Samoa Joe has a fanbase and a pretty fucking big one too. Therefore, handing him both an undefeated run, a couple of strong opponents and eventually allowing him to defeat Crimson and capture the TNA World Heavyweight Championship will capture the interest of fans.

 

[New Hot Fed]

I swear you people just don't listen to nothing that is being said while you watch the show do you!

They are clearly doing a Lack of Focus and Frustration storyline with Joe. I suggest you people go a listen to the Annoucncers As they talk about Joe and his building frustration!Even Kaz was saying Joe isn't himself and Joe said '' Who are you Tony Robbins". You people need to listen to story that's being told and maybe you won't be so misguided!

Yea but they've been doing this stuff for YEARS. Remember when Joe left and came back as "The Nation of Violence"? He had a big knife and a new look. TNA has been doing this with him forever. They don't want to push him so they always say he loses because he's unfocused and it's a good excuse to have him not become champ and stay in midcard. It's like they always want to "fix" something with him instead of letting him be himself.

 

[GrandSword]

Joe was great at Destination X and I know it was the Impact zone, but man he was OVER big time even with his losing streak. The TNA fans came out in droves for an X Div ppv and were really behind him, and it didn't really matter who he was wrestling.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

I think you're starting to see the Joe rebuild right now, watching him lose to guys he would otherwise beat without issue, and lose in embarrassing ways like via roll-up (Kaz/Destination X).

They did the same exact thing with him prior to the Nation of Violence run when he came back with Taz as his manager. He lost a bunch of matches, was furious and disappeared (well, was kidnapped, but whatever) for weeks before returning as the Joe of old. No reason that can't be done again.