How did these Tenured Superstars last so long?

[123NewChamp]

Hello, I got a good question which might make for a good discussion. I was thinking about 3 superstars that I know for sure about their careers, and can basically track their careers from way back when. And they are Hardcore Holly, Scotty 2 Hotty, and Billy Gunn.

The Comparison, none of them have never been WWE Champion, all were WWF Tag Team Champions, and all have been employed with WWF 10 Years or More. So I want to know why do you think WWF kept these guys around as long as they did.

Billy Gunn- Very Accomplished Tag Team Veteran. And made almost every Situation and gimmick work for him. Every Major Tag Team he was in he won Tag Team Title Gold. The Smoking Gunns, The New Age Outlaws, and Billy And Chuck. Not to mention single success as 1999 King Of The Ring. Billy Gunn becoming a former Hardcore Champion and Intercontinental Champion. Although he's been sidelined with Injuries, he had a great Career until the end.

Scotty 2 Hotty- Jobbed mostly at the beginning of his career. Being employed by WWF since 1991, he really didn't come until the scene as a noticable character until 1997 during the creation of WWF's light heavyweight division during the Light Heavyweight Tournament as Scott Taylor. His career blew up big time when TOO Much became 2 Cool, and he won the WWF Tag Titles alongside Grandmaster Sexay, from Edge and Christian. Also he won The Light Heavyweight Title from Dean Malenko, and the Tag Team Titles again with Rikishi. After Rikishi's release, Scotty been teaming with various partners, and jobbing before his Release.

Bob Holly- Started his career as a jobber. Jobbed for a good while as Spark Plugg. Won the Tag Titles with the 1-2-3 Kid. Then went to the JOB Squad before forming a hilarious Tag Team with his cousin Crash Holly. Then Became a Multiple Time Hardcore Champion coining the name Hardcore Holly, and then becoming injury prone. Coming back to have supposively a main event feud with Brock Lesnar, to having more injuries to Jobbing and finally being released once more.

Remember these guys been with the company 10+years and haven't gotten a pink slip in between their time with the company. So despite the injuries these guys had; Why in your opinion did the WWF keep these guys and invest the time in these 3 as long as they have?

 

[GameOver]

they were atleast draw cards in the case of Billy Gunn and Scotty 2 Hotty
and Bob Holly was a backstage leader (albeit bully)

Billy Gunn one of the best pure athletes and other then his lack of drive when it came to singles he was a great asset and still is. Billy and Chuck and New Age Outlaws were 2 very well known teams that made a huge mark on the WWE and in the case of NAO they affected the business as a whole.

Bob Holly was a multi time tag champ with several partners aswell as his multi-time hardcore titles was just tough plain and simple, he exemplified "Hardcore" he broke so many body parts over the years and kept working through the pain much like Mick Foley

and when he was teaming/fueding with his cousin crash it was some very memorable moments, he also helped pave the way for new guys to get over 123 Kid teamed with him and they became tag champs, Pac then went onto eventually become a household name by beating Razor and then moving onto DX,

w/ Bart Gunn they recreated the Midnight Express and were the NWA tag champs, after Bart broke away from the Smoking Gunns which also intern got Billy out of the team and eventually formed the New Age Outlaws with Road Dogg
a team that paved the way for a resurgeance in the tag division at that time

then we moved onto the Holly Cousins, that was a blast.

and most recently he was instrumental in getting Cody Rhodes over as a starting heel.

he also fueded with Brock Lesnar which resulted in Holly suffering a broken arm.

I'd say he'd still be there if he and JBL weren't heavily ostricized for bullying people backstage, he certainly was in Vince's good books for the longest time.

Scotty 2 Hotty - well he was a great comic act and thus drew entertainment value and had assumedly a decent attitude. Also wasn't half bad in ring

 

[The Dragon Saga]

Billy Gunn stayed employed for so long due to how good he was in the ring and how useful he was in the image WWE were going for at the time. The Smoking Gunn's worked as a team and held the WWE Tag Team Championships, when he went with Road Dogg to form The New Age Outlaws and they became members of D-Generation X, NAO were members of one of the most entertaining factions probably ever. Billy Gunn had good singles success too, former King of the Ring and a former IC Champion. He feuded with guys like The Rock at one stage in his career, and even when he was in Billy and Chuck they filled a role within the tag team division. Billy was always useful to the WWE.

Scotty 2 Hotty is another case of someone who was primarily an enhancement talent for the longest time until Too Cool came along and he had something to do. Not only did Scotty work well to enhance new guys coming in, in squash matches but again, he fit into WWE's image at that time. Even after Brian Christopher got released, Scotty still appeared at two further WrestleMania's and held the WWE Tag Team Championship's at one. Up until he left he was just an enhancement talent in ways but again he served a purpose.

And Bob Holly is pretty much the same story, asides the fact he was known to be a bit of a politician. But really Bob served a purpose most of the time, held the WWE Tag Team Championships, was largely featured in the Hardcore division; hell that is nearly all he did through the Attitude Era, he got spots at WrestleMania's and even faced Triple H at a SummerSlam. Hardcore Holly had one thing in his advantage though, beginning when Brock broke his neck. When Brock broke his neck and Holly did nothing to the WWE, they almost felt liable to keep him on. And then when he came back they even gave him a shot at the WWE Championship.

Then after that, and even before that he was just another experienced enhancement talent. Holly was Orton's first feud, he was one of Mr. Kennedy's too and not to mention how he helped get over Cody Rhodes. And the reason he lased before he got to Rhodes was all because of the injury he sustained in ECW going through the table where he kept on going. Holly got extended time due to the punishment he took, much like Scott Taylor, he was just a good enhancement talent.

 

[Saeros]

Because the WWF/WWE could trust them.

All 3 had the atributes to be kept around, without being needed to be big champions

All were acomplished in the ring
All were fairly decent at making others look good
they had good attitudes backstage, some say Gunn had a bad rep and Holly was, like JBL, a bully, but they didnt cause trouble and that was very important.

I dont know if this has any correlation but i also think that none of those 3 were overly charasmatic, and because of that couldnt be pushed to the main event level but at the same time, because they had all been in the WWF since the mid 90s, they had paid their dues, and were reliable to do the job handed to them in the ring

 

[Inittowinit]

I dont think you can count Scotty too Hotty as he wasnt a contracted employee during that time. For the most part he was on a pay per appearance deal until too cool took off. For Gunn and hotty would say charisma.

Bob holly I think stuck around as long as he did because of TE. He was made to look like an asshole, which he was, and people wanted to see him get beat.

 

[MFR0mack]

Bob Holly was a multi time tag champ with several partners aswell as his multi-time hardcore titles was just tough plain and simple, he exemplified "Hardcore" he broke so many body parts over the years and kept working through the pain much like Mick Foley

I'mma start here. No offense, bra, but you need to brush up on your wrestling history. Holly didn't break "so many body parts" and keep working through the pain. He broke his arm once, due to Kurt Angle botching, and didn't wrestle through the duration of the healing process. That's when Molly Holly was introduced. He broke his neck, because he decided to sandbag Brock Lesnar, and was out for a year and a half to heal. He never wrestled with broken or injured body parts like Mick Foley was known to do. He took his time off and played it safe. Definitely not a bad thing, and from his perspective, the healthiest decision he could have made. But he can't be put on the level of other people who actually worked with broken bones.

and when he was teaming/fueding with his cousin crash it was some very memorable moments, he also helped pave the way for new guys to get over 123 Kid teamed with him and they became tag champs, Pac then went onto eventually become a household name by beating Razor and then moving onto DX

123 Kid beat Razor Ramon on his first match in the WWF, not after winning the tag titles. He wasn't even really a household name through his first tenure in the WWF. What really got him over was that he jumped ship to WCW, got fired, then came back as part of the new DX and started the character X-Pac. 123 Kid's tag title run with Bob Holly is wholly and largely forgettable, especially because it only lasted a day before they lost the straps to The Smoking Gunns the night after Royal Rumble '95. So Holly didn't really pave the way for Sean Waltman at all.

w/ Bart Gunn they recreated the Midnight Express and were the NWA tag champs, after Bart broke away from the Smoking Gunns which also intern got Billy out of the team and eventually formed the New Age Outlaws with Road Dogg
a team that paved the way for a resurgeance in the tag division at that time

They may be officially recognized as NWA tag team champions, but come on, "Bombastic Bob" was a total bomb when it came to audiences and there's a reason the New Midnight Express didn't last long. Plus, they won it from the Headbangers for christ's sake.

New Age Outlaws also didn't make any kind of resurgence in the tag division at that time. The tag division of 1997-1998 was not the same as, say, today. There were a lot of talented teams on the roster, and they were actual teams, not guys thrown together (something fans complain about today, but strangely, it's exactly what NAO was back then). Headbangers, Godwinns, Bodydonnas, Legion Of Doom, New Hart Foundation and the Smoking Gunns were all keeping the tag division afloat through the mid 90s before the Outlaws teamed up. It wasn't exactly a division that was dying at the time and many of the champions AFTER the Outlaws until 1999 (when the Hardyz, Acolytes, E&C, Holly Cousins, etc started winning gold) were just guys thrown together randomly (Steve Austin & Undertaker, Kane & Mankind, Shamrock & Bossman) and not actual teams in a revived division.

he also fueded with Brock Lesnar which resulted in Holly suffering a broken arm.

Nope. Kurt Angle broke Holly's arm botching a moonsault. Lesnar broke Holly's neck, because Holly wanted to make Brock look weak & sandbagged a powerbomb.

I'd say he'd still be there if he and JBL weren't heavily ostricized for bullying people backstage, he certainly was in Vince's good books for the longest time.

And this is the biggest mistake. Being a long-term employee does not mean being in Vince's good books. It just means that they didn't do things to get fired for until a certain point. Holly & Gunn were good athletes, no doubt, but they both lacked the charisma and the motivation to get themselves out of their lower-mid-card status. So when it was seen as their time being up, they were let go without remorse or regret.

People need to understand that the roster is so large, there is no black & white view of these wrestlers. There's not good books and bad books, these guys don't fall in one or the other. In wrestler's autobiographies, most notably Shawn Michaels', Bret Hart's and Mick Foley's, what's shown to us is that the guys that Vince likes are the ones who have the balls to speak up for themselves and speak to him themselves, instead of letting themselves get jerked around by management, agents & middle-men. There are guys he dislikes, sure, but each one is for a whole myriad of reasons and not some general grouping. Then there's the drifters, the people who are just there. They don't do anything wrong, so they aren't released, their matches are alright to good, so they keep people entertained.

Bob Holly & Billy Gunn lasted as long as they did because they had talent and ability and didn't cause a shitload of problems. That's it. Pretty much just like the Brooklyn Brawler, Mark Henry (before his recent big push, which he earned by showing more ability and passion in his work) and any number of guys that were part of the company more than a decade. This applies to Scotty 2 Hotty to an extent as well, but he was always seen more of a complete joke character and never had any of the accolades that the other guys received.

 

[brighamosity]

123 Kid beat Razor Ramon on his first match in the WWF, not after winning the tag titles.

Actually, I specifically remember 1-2-3 Kid being in the WWE for a good while before his feud with Razor Ramon. He was just a random jobber called the Kamikaze Kid.

Anyway, I think most of these guys stuck around due to loyalty and a good attitude. About half of the wrestlers WWE releases asked for their release because they don't like the way they are being used. I'm willing to bet another half of them at least complain about it. I bet if a person is a good worker and is willing to do anything Vince tells them to do, they can usually have fairly long careers. How else can you explain guys like Chavo and Mark Henry being around for so long? Again, Chavo is only gone because he asked for his release. He could have stayed with WWE for years longer.

 

[Foshinzo]

Billy Gunn - I'll say what I always say about Billy Gunn: they guy had it all, except for the fact that he just lacked the, "it factor." If there was ever a guy that I just didn't understand why he never got over, yet completely understood why he never got over, Billy Gunn would be that guy. Look at all the different gimmicks he had: Mr. Ass, BA Billy Gunn, all the tag teams he was in...he just couldn't get over, and it's because he didn't have the ability to steal the show. Was he a great, fine worker? Of course. Billy Gunn was one of the hardest and best workers of his day. But, was Billy Gunn ever going to belong with Rock, Austin, Foley, Big Show, Undertaker, Angle, etc.? Don't even kid yourself. These men were show-stealers, who had the ability to captivate you with their ability to tell stories in the ring. Billy Gunn never had that ability. He was at his best when he was with Road Dogg, who had the abilities that Billy Gunn lacked and vice versa. He was a solid midcarder, a fantastic curtain jerker, and a lackluster main eventer. I loved the guy at the time, but it's a good thing that they never pushed him further than they did, because to keep him where he was only accentuated his positives and hid his negatives. Billy Gunn could have used a guy like Paul Heyman...

Scotty 2 Hotty - All I can really say about S2H was that he was damned annoying. I never found his finisher funny, and I was actually aggravated to see him rise and win the tag titles. Especially with Brian Christopher; at least S2H could do the worm, I guess. Even then, the worm finisher was annoying and stupid, too. I never wonder about this guy, because he was a comedy jobber who got over with a dumb finisher and got more than his talent level warranted...sounds like Santino.

Bob Holly - Despite his negatives, I want to complement Holly. He was like Billy Gunn: he was a good worker, for the most part, he looked the part, for the most part, but he too lacked the ability to wow people. Now, he had that ability more than BA, I maintain, but they did have somewhat similar careers. Bob Holly was a good company guy, and you have to commend him for that, I suppose, but he was sloppy in the ring, and he too didn't belong with guys like Rock, Angle, and Lesnar. I'm just going from memory, but they tried to get Holly over and they couldn't...kind of like Billy Gunn. Bob Holly was a good midcard worker, he had a good feud for the Hardcore Title with Al Snow, but he was never going to make it further than he did, either. I wanted to like him, because he wasn't bad, but there must be some backstage stuff that I don't know about. You'll have to pardon my lack of wrestling history knowledge; I'm just trying to call 'em like I saw 'em.

But, (TL;DR) all three of these men were right where they needed to be.

 

[MFR0mack]

Actually, I specifically remember 1-2-3 Kid being in the WWE for a good while before his feud with Razor Ramon. He was just a random jobber called the Kamikaze Kid.

He worked as a jobber on shows for tapes & house shows known as The Lightning Kid, but his true TV debut was on the May 17th, 1993 episode of Monday Night Raw where he caught a surprise victory on Razor Ramon, which lead to him being re-dubbed the 1-2-3 Kid. He definitely wasn't working as a jobber for "a good while" because he was signed shortly after Wrestlemania IX & he didn't win the tag titles til Royal Rumble 1995.

 

[Iversen]

Billy Gunn - as has been said the guy was actually the total package and was an important part of WWE TV for quite a while. The big angle or moment to get him truly over and push him into the main picture just never seemed to happen sadly.

Scotty 2 Hotty - the same reason Santino is. He was over with the kids provided a few cheap laughs. He had a niche and he did alright in it.

Bob Holly - backstage politics obviously played a part. He was also a solid worker. Someone you could use to test out the new kids. Although he wouldn't give them an easy ride something that back fired on him with the Lesnar angle. Like Gunn he just never had that moment that propelled him to the next level.

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

Scotty was always popular, Too Cool were one of the most over acts in the company when they were in their primes- the kids loved them, they sold so much merchandise. After Grand Master was fired Scotty was just useful to have around to get the cheap pops with the Worm, and put people over on Heat. Every wrestling company needs to have enhancement talent, and Scotty was good at that.

Billy Gunn COULD have been a main eventer. As everyone agrees, he was a very naturally gifted athlete, and was always referred to as such on TV. He was a great tag-team wrestler, be it in the Outlaws, the Smoking Gunns or Billy and Chuck. He had a great look, cool finisher and a decent moveset. However, Gunn never quite made it as a singles guy and WWE gave him quite a few chances to do so.

He won KOTR and did absolutely nothing with it, he had a few IC title reigns, but the guy never really impressed me on the mic, he never stepped it up to the next level in the way that we saw other tag team specialists like HBK and Edge manage to do, Christian and Jeff Hardy too. The fans liked Gunn, but they could never really get emotionally attached to him as a singles wrestler because he never seemed to really "want it", or have the desire that people like Edge, Cena, Rock etc had. Billy coasted for too long, and thats what cost him a main event spot.

 

[TheITFactor]

One thing - the fans liked them. 'Nuff said.

 

[Masson26]

Billy Gunn- Solid In ring performer, who always managed to get a decent reaction (which is really the key to success in wrestling, and always had that potential that no one wanted to give up on.

Bob Holly much like Billy Gunn, always got a decent crowd reaction based on his hard hitting style, even though he was nearly completely void of charisma, but truthfully hes the one that surprises me most to make the list as he was known to injure people both accidentally and semi-intentionally and was known to be a class-a jerk.

Scotty Too Hotty if you actually go back and look at it, he was probably the most over of these three guys from 97 on. Much like Santino he had the women and children crowd, but alot of grown men, though they wont admit it, liked him too. Also other then Val Venis, no one in the company could make the young guys look any better...despite having the worst finisher of all time.