How can you NOT respect the troops?

[HBK-aholic]

I'm sure this can be stretched across to Americans, also. I know there is always opposition to wars, in every country, about every battle, in every war. I'm in no way an expert of what's going on regarding British troops being at war now, and don't pretend to be. I don't oppose it, because I don't know enough about it. That being said, whether you oppose the war or not, how can people disrespect troops so much? They're there doing as the government asks, risking their lives, so that the world will be a better place. They're not involved in the WHY we're there, they're simply there to do a job, because they care.

There have been reports at FUNERALS of those who've given their lives of people protesting the war, and disrespecting the deceased. Very few things made me as angry as hearing about this. If it was my husband/brother/father who'd died at war, and people were protesting at his funeral, It'd take a lot for someone too stop me killing them. I seriously don't understand it.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

how can people disrespect troops so much?

I don't know for sure. But my guess is because it's a job, it's voluntary. Nobody is being made to fight in that war.

 

[ShockTheMonkey223]

I don't know for sure. But my guess is because it's a job, it's voluntary. Nobody is being made to fight in that war.

Exactly. There was no draft. Nobody was forced to go to war. The people who went chose to. They chose to be a bully and police the world and I don't have to respect anyone who dies because of that. The troops make me sick.

 

[Dexter]

We don't really get things like that happening on this side of the pond much anymore. You still get a handful of random whackjobs like the Westboro Baptist Church (wikipedia that if you get the chance, it'll piss you off but it's an interesting read) picketing funerals but by and large, even those that staunchly oppose the war adopt a "support the troops, not the war" attitude.

I think the reason we don't do that much over here anymore goes back to the Vietnam War. Opposition to that war was famously huge, and it practically created the Hippie movement of my parents' generation. Problem is, college aged kids like that can sometimes get a little TOO passionate about their causes and took it a little too far. There were multiple reports of protesters spitting on soldiers returning home and calling them "baby killers". A common protest chant was "Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Minh! The NLF is going to win!", celebrating a victory by the Vietnamese National Liberation Front (Viet Cong).

Obviously, this kind of thing won't fly with your typical American (or, I assume, your typical Briton for that matter) and hasn't really be repeated on such a large scale since then.

 

[Tastycles]

You realise that if you are in the army and refuse to fight in a war, then you get charged for desertion and sent to a military gaol? That is a high price to pay, especially when getting thrown out of the military almost guarantees that you will struggle to find a job for the rest of your life.

Being in the army is a thankless task, and I'm sure the vast majority of the people in Iraq and Afghanistan don't want to be there. I was hugely against going into Iraq, and I think Afghanistan is unwinnable, but there I wouldn't dream of insulting a squaddie for going there, because ultimately it isn't their fault at war. I don't really have sympathy for people who complain about going to war after joining the military, that's the point, but at the end of the day, it doesn't help anyone to demoralise the troops once they are abroad.

The people protesting at funerals are stupid. Literally nobody who has died in a war in the last 50 years has had any say whether the war goes ahead or not. Some of the people to die in Iraq have been 18 years old. Can anyone really say that they're glad they died?

 

[Dexter]

Exactly. There was no draft. Nobody was forced to go to war. The people who went chose to. They chose to be a bully and police the world and I don't have to respect anyone who dies because of that. The troops make me sick.

I've never met anyone in uniform who joined to be a bully. In fact, I've never met one who joined so they could even hold a rifle.

People join the service for a lot of reasons, but the most common I've heard by a long shot was the opportunity for a better life down the road. In particular, I know a lot that joined for the ROTC program. See, college financial aid is a funny thing. Ideally, you'd like to get a sports or academic scholarship. Those aren't dependent on your financial status and they don't have to be repaid. Its yours outright as a reward for being good at something.

Unfortunately, those are very few and far between, relatively speaking. That leaves a couple of options... grants, or loans. Loans can be a problem because I have a lot of friends around my age (30ish) that are still deep in debt from student loans and will be for years to come. That's a hell of a way to start your professional career. I mean, can you imagine... fresh out of college in an entry level position and already as much as 100 grand in the hole?

So then you have grants. Those are, for the most part, government subsidized and need-based. The need is determined by providing a LOT of information about the student's, or the student's parent's, financial situation. Thing is, the need isn't judged on how much money you or your parents have to spend. It's based on how much you make and any other assets like value of your home, retirement plans, etc. As a result, a home-owner with a retirement 401k plan might qualify for 0 financial aid, yet have absolutely no money available to pay for tuition.

So some young people, admirably, choose to make their own way rather than put their parents in financial jeopardy for their education. Now, you could say "Well, tough, the parents should have planned ahead and set up a college savings plan" and to an extent you'd be right, but the fact remains that they didn't and it falls to the student to provide for himself for his education. Rather than spend a large chunk of their adult life in debt, they choose to join the armed services for a free education in the ROTC program.

So ya know... keep that in mind when you say the troops make you sick. You're certainly entitled to that opinion but... think it through. Try to take into account the 18 year old kid who joins up to make a better life for himself and takes an IED to the face at a road checkpoint outside Baghdad.
Might cast a different light on it.

 

[ShockTheMonkey223]

I've never met anyone in uniform who joined to be a bully. In fact, I've never met one who joined so they could even hold a rifle.

I have. But I really don't care what the reason for joining was. I don't have respect for anyone in the US military, period. Would I go protest at a funeral? No. But there's a big difference between supporting something and being an asshole.

 

[Dexter]

I have. But I really don't care what the reason for joining was. I don't have respect for anyone in the US military, period. Would I go protest at a funeral? No. But there's a big difference between supporting something and being an asshole.

So what you're saying here is that absolutely every last individual... every grunt on the front lines, every tank mechanic in a garage, every army nurse in a veteran's hospital, every recruiter behind a desk, every cadet at West Point, every Private sitting in his bunk studying for his MCATs, and every coffin covered by an American flag has lost your respect by virtue of the fact that they served in the armed forces.

Damn, dude. I have to give you credit for having the giant, swinging balls to even say that but... damn.

 

[Nitafrong]

If this makes sense (as much sense in starting an answer with a question anyway ) I agree with the point that 2000 Jakes made and not really what the surprised monkey said.

At the end of the day in most of the countries that we are coming from there is no enforced conscription, and so its a person's own choice to join the army. They aren't going into it blind (well I sincerely hope not- in fairness some of the recruitment ads can be a bit misleading), they know and have chosen to take the chance that they will be put into a war zone. For some it may be patriotic, or for some as Mr Dexter’s Lab above me has illustrated- it may be for advancement in later life.

As well as this though, anyone who has joined in the last 8 years in either the UK or America knows about the wars going on. By joining the army they are supporting the war- they are choosing to accept the government money to go to a foreign land and do a soldiers job- whatever that may entail. (I make no judgements here- I haven’t been out there so I cannot judge them)

I can understand how some people who believe passionately against the war could have a problem with these men and women who choose their lot. In the same sense I also understand that it would take a lot more bravery than I would ever have to take part in a war. But despite this they have to understand that people who are against the war won't see them as hero's, some people may even see them as mercenaries, or as mr monkey above- as bullies. The choice to go to war might not have been theirs but when they joined the army they made the conscious decision that they would kill under the orders of their government.

At the end of the day it always reminds me of an old Irish folk song I heard over Christmas where two British army recruiters tried to convince two young farmers sons into joining the army. They told them of the smart uniform's they would wear, the respect, the money they would get. Anyway the farmers sons responses were brief- the clothes they wore wouldn't be theirs and neither would they anymore- they would belong to another. (Sorry the song sounds much better than the hash I am making of it)

Anyways my point- I can easily understand why people wouldn't respect the troops. Not everyone supports the choices that their country is making and they shouldn't be made to. Myself I respect them as people for having the bravery I don't have- don't necessarily respect what they represent, what they have done, nor do I feel that I should have to.

 

[Mr. TM]

I guess I would label myself of an anti war/pro troops kind of guy.

Wars happen, may wars are fought in defense of people at a risk of troops lives. World War 1, World War 2, Korea, Desert Storm, these were wars fought to protect people. I would even argue that the Iraq War served a great point of protection of people. But going to war can be extremely costly, moreso than staying out of war.

But as for the troops, I respect their mission. Canada is a little different than America in terms of their army. I am not an expert on the matter, but I believe large portions of the American forces are lower class citizens looking for a way to support themselves. So they take one of the riskiest jobs imaginable. I do respect that.

But in Canada, troops are typically middle class kids with a large portion of them going into a full military career. This is their job. And their lifetime job is to protect our country. I also respect that.

 

[Paradox]

I really don't know how anyone can be against the troops. Do I agree with some of the reasons that we went to war in the first place? yes and no. Does that mean I'm going to go off on the troops? Hell no! They are the ones that fight for each and everyone of us to defend us. Whether we agree with the war or not. I think that Afghanistan was something that need to be done. Iraq less so. Still I will back those troops every friggin' day. The large majority of troops want to be where they are. They signed up to defend their country, to defend us. For us not to support them is like bitch slapping them in the face. It is completely disrespectful for us who go to work everyday and complain about the little things. To get pissed of and go and disrespect the troops who are fighting for us. Who are sacrificing their lives for us. I really don't know who can do that, and I find it disgraceful.

 

[X]

While I have respect for the men and women in the armed forces, I find it ridiculous how some people just give them a free pass because they wear a uniform.

You can't really say "They're just following orders!" because guess what? That's the same fucking thing the Nazis said after WW2, and they didn't get any sympathy, they were punished for their crimes. Just because your told to do something, doesn't mean you should do it. That's the kind of blind obedience that leads to genocides and imperialism.

Let me put it like this; I don't support the troops just because they're "the troops", I support those that are decent and good human beings. I don't just give my respect to someone because they wear a uniform, that's ridiculous. Like any other line of work, the military has it's fair share of sick and twisted people. You know how many troops have been tried for rape during only the last 5+ years? Quite a few. And what about things like the My Lai massacre? Should we just give them a free pass 'cause we "support the troops"?

I've also always thought it to be a bit ridiculous how people can say they oppose the war, but support the troops. "They're just following orders"...so? Does that make what they're doing right? Not in my mind. Don't give me that bullshit following orders excuse, the Nazis were just following orders as well.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

I'll have to agree with xfearbefore here, and say that I respect people not for their occupation, but how they are as people. If you're a complete jerk who believes that I should bow down and show him respect just because he wears a uniform, well, then I probably won't have any respect for you. Going into the Armed Forces is a very, very commendable thing, and I would never disrespect someone because of their choice to enlist.

The one thing I do have a problem with though is the preference veterans get for government jobs. I can understand people in the Armed Forces getting certain benefits, but I think preferential treatment in employment goes a tad too far.

 

[Dexter]

While I have respect for the men and women in the armed forces, I find it ridiculous how some people just give them a free pass because they wear a uniform.

You can't really say "They're just following orders!" because guess what? That's the same fucking thing the Nazis said after WW2, and they didn't get any sympathy, they were punished for their crimes. Just because your told to do something, doesn't mean you should do it. That's the kind of blind obedience that leads to genocides and imperialism.

Let me put it like this; I don't support the troops just because they're "the troops", I support those that are decent and good human beings. I don't just give my respect to someone because they wear a uniform, that's ridiculous. Like any other line of work, the military has it's fair share of sick and twisted people. You know how many troops have been tried for rape during only the last 5+ years? Quite a few. And what about things like the My Lai massacre? Should we just give them a free pass 'cause we "support the troops"?

I've also always thought it to be a bit ridiculous how people can say they oppose the war, but support the troops. "They're just following orders"...so? Does that make what they're doing right? Not in my mind. Don't give me that bullshit following orders excuse, the Nazis were just following orders as well.

You make some good points, although I'm going to have to Godwin (link) that Nazi reference. You're absolutely right in that someone in a uniform doesn't deserve an automatic free pass any more than they deserve automatic scorn.

And again, this goes back to Vietnam (sorry for the constant history lessons, but it's relevant) and the point that, while you may disagree with the motivations for a war and even disagree with a soldier's motivations for being there, it's still not cool to hope they get killed because of it. I mean, there's a lot of people that I disagree with to the point of disgust, but I don't wish death upon them for it.

In addition to my example of the "Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Minh..." chant from earlier, there's also the "Hanoi Jane" (link) incident. That's an excellent example of taking a protest too far, and a big reason why Jane Fonda is still such a big joke to this day. Essentially, the moral of the story is that there's a big difference between disagreeing with the motivations for war (protected free speech) and outright siding with the enemy (treason).

That, I believe, is the basis of "support the troops, not the war." It's just a desire to see them come home safely, because they're fellow countrymen and fellow human beings.

 

[Nitafrong]

But the problem with your quite admirable humanist feelings is that you are only letting it reach as far as your fellow human being- as long as he is the same nationality as you. You said that you don't wish death on soldiers- by supporting the troops aren't you supporting their efforts to kill enemy soldiers? In my mind people are people- an innocent American is the same as an innocent English man, Iranian, or Chinese man

In the case of a just war, you might have a point. But when are wars ever just? In my mind in Vietnam, there were many innocents dying- both the drafted Americans who didn't want to be there and the Vietnamese who were defending their country from a foreign invader. (I hope this doesn't cause offence- being that I am neither American nor Vietnamese its probably not my place to comment on it- but it was a reply to your point.)

So yeah in my mind you can not support the war or support the troops- but not disrespect the soldiers as people. Not supporting something is quite different from disrespecting something. And as I said before I don't think you should never feel pressured into supporting something.

 

[The Bearded One]

I don't know for sure. But my guess is because it's a job, it's voluntary. Nobody is being made to fight in that war.

That actually maks me respect them more. They are choosing to go to war and defend their home country. They could have sit back and let others do it for them, but they are choosing to risk their lives to make the world a better place and to keep their homke countries safe. There is nothing I respect more than somebody choosing to risk their lives to help people.

 

[Dexter]

Well yeah, but you seem to be assuming that "supporting the troops" in the context of wanting to see them come home safely necessarily means you want them to kill as many people as possible in the meantime, and that's absolutely not what I'm saying. There are those that feel that way, and more power to them, but personally, I'd just as soon see everyone go home to their families. Even the other guys.

Going back, yet again and hopefully for the last time, to beat that Vietnamese dead horse again, the line gets crossed when your distaste for a war becomes such that you start actively rooting for the other side to kill OUR guys. I don't want to come across like I'm setting up a Straw Man here because I'm really not, that DOES happen. Not so much since that particular war, but it still does, and that's what I'm arguing against.

As for your point about never feeling pressured into supporting something, you're absolutely right. You shouldn't, and if I've come across as believing otherwise, I misspoke and I apologize.

 

[Dexter]

That actually maks me respect them more. They are choosing to go to war and defend their home country. They could have sit back and let others do it for them, but they are choosing to risk their lives to make the world a better place and to keep their homke countries safe. There is nothing I respect more than somebody choosing to risk their lives to help people.

And you bring up another interesting point. Should the intentions of the individual count for something? Say... I'm a staunch opponent of the war hypothetically speaking, but a particular soldier really believes in the cause, and he believes in his heart that he's there to defend my freedom and protect our country. I disagree with his belief because I don't feel it's necessary, but... should it still count for something because he believes, however misguided I may find it, that what he's doing is a noble thing?

I honestly don't have an answer to this one. It's certainly something to consider.

 

[Nitafrong]

No hey- no need to appologise- that wasn't directed at you, just more of a general point. I thought it bookended the point well

Its all a bit of a difficult point- I agree that wanting the troops to come safely is a good thing- no one wants others to die when they don't deserve it (and some people believe no one ever deserves to die). What I was more referring to was supporting the troops, as in "I support the troops out in ........ I support what they are doing" This is the kind of support that I don't agree with.

And on your Vietnam point- hoping that anyone dies- be it your countrymen or foreigners isn't a good thing. That said I am not sure where I stand on Jane Fonda- I understand how soldiers and there families would be justified in their distaste for her- but people non connected with the war- as in people our generation? Treason as a whole is a fairly holey concept and can be used in some cases to silence oppoisition.

 

[Dexter]

Its all a bit of a difficult point- I agree that wanting the troops to come safely is a good thing- no one wants others to die when they don't deserve it (and some people believe no one ever deserves to die). What I was more referring to was supporting the troops, as in "I support the troops out in ........ I support what they are doing" This is the kind of support that I don't agree with.

We agree on this point, I think.

And on your Vietnam point- hoping that anyone dies- be it your countrymen or foreigners isn't a good thing. That said I am not sure where I stand on Jane Fonda- I understand how soldiers and there families would be justified in their distaste for her- but people non connected with the war- as in people our generation? Treason as a whole is a fairly holey concept and can be used in some cases to silence oppoisition.

Here's where we might differ, then, because to me, the Hanoi Jane incident is indefensible. You're right in that an accusation of treason can be used as a weapon, as in the McCarthy Trials (link) (I'm just full of history lessons today for some reason) but I mean... appearing in a press photo getting chummy amongst a group of North Vietnamese while posing atop one of the anti-aircraft guns? That's just not reasonable protest OR protected speech. It's not even in the ballpark.

 

[Nitafrong]

I suppose the issue to me is how much you owe your country? And how much is your country currently connected to its current government? If you really felt passionatly against what was being done- if you felt in your heart of hearts that the greatest misjustice of your life was occuring and you had an oppertunity to stop it? I would like to believe that you can be a passionate nationalist and yet also have a hatred of your countries government and what they were doing. You said in your previous point about people believing passionatly in what there were doing and if that could somehow justify it? (I understand that you didn't come to a conclusion on the point though) But if you follow that logic- the same can be said for Ms Fonda.

Its all a very slipperly slope though- when Jane Fonda attacked the American government in this way the question is- should she not be allowed to return until invited back? Perhaps once there was a new government.

My origonal Fonda point was more along the lines that I thought it was unjustified for people of our generation to criticise her quite so quickly. We don't know what it was like to live then. She could be as passionate an american as anyone who demeans her- perhaps she saw American values in a different way?

(Sorry if I have seemingly answered your point with questions rather than answers- as I say I don't really have a firm point on Nationalism. It can have benifits and it can have many dangers. Only point I will say from my personal experience- people who love their country tend to have hate for others- for what they have done to their country in the past)

 

[Dexter]

I suppose the issue to me is how much you owe your country? And how much is your country currently connected to its current government. If you really felt passionatly against what was being done- if you felt in your heart of hearts that the greatest misjustice of your life was occuring and you had an oppertunity to stop it?

That's a tough question to answer. I'm trying to put myself in that position to come up with an answer. Like... say I'm Jane Fonda, and I believe... more strongly than I've ever believed anything... that what we're doing as a nation is wrong. I'm STILL having trouble making that logical leap from conscientious objector to chillin' on an AA gun with the Viet Cong.

I mean, I consider myself an open-minded person and I'm willing to go along with you on a hypothetical roller-coaster ride in assuming there might be some terrible injustice that would drive me to support an enemy who's actively engaged in killing fellow Americans in an effort to right that terrible wrong... but I just can't get my head fully wrapped around the concept.

I might have to just concede the point to you here for the simple fact that I can't grasp the hypothetical concept well enough to effectively argue against it.

 

[The Mark of Zur-En-Arrh]

I disagree with his belief because I don't feel it's necessary, but... should it still count for something because he believes, however misguided I may find it, that what he's doing is a noble thing?

Well most of the Nazis thought wiping out the Jews was a logical thing to do to improve Germany, do you think that that belief should be respected?

As for the question at hand, i don't disrespect the troops, but i don't respect them at the same time. Confusing, i know. Let me re-phrase. I don't like to see human life wasted pointlessy, especially in war. So basically, i wouldn't disrespect a dead soldier, but i wouldn't respect a live one for suiting up to go kill other people because whoever's in charge of the government at the time thinks it's a good idea.

The most recent example that comes to mind for me was Iraq. Now, obviously we had the 9/11 stuff occurr and the invasion of Iraq followed shortly after, and in his infinite wisdom Tony Blair turned to Bush and said 'Don't worry old boy, we've got your backs.'

Oh, thanks a lot Tony! Not only have you fucked our economy over, you're now going to send our boys to help the Yanks out, when literally everyone else has said 'Follow you into a war of your own making? Fuck off mate, don't you remember what happened last time?' And what followed after that? 4 or 5 bombs go off in London, and now hundreds of innocent people are killed in England, and we're STILL finding bombers cropping up planning to blow us all away.

Sorry, let me get back to the topic.

When you sign your name on that dotted line you have reduced yourself to the status of a pawn in a mad man's game of chess. To your commander and chief, you're expendable, nothing more, nothing less. You are disposable heroes.

See, even that doesn't feel right to me. In some cases, they aren't heroes at all. I prefer the term 'victims' to 'heroes' when it comes to the military. Lambs to the slaughter, literally.

If you come back alive, you're either fuckin' lucky or they didn't use you for much in the first place. I won't spit on a soldier, dead or alive, because any human being deserves some respect, but don't expect me to roll out the red carpet and welcome them into my home, because they still live.

 

[Nitafrong]

Thats very gentlemanlike of you But I am fairly sure I don't deserve it- I wasn't really answering you with opinions, just hypotheticals. And thats not really a grown up way to argue I am afraid

How about we agree that there is no real answer- everyone is different and we would all do different things in different situations. How much would Jane Fonda now really agree with her actions and how much does she blame on drugs (I have no idea- just judging. Oh err I feel bad now- what if she didn't?), being young, following in the thrall of her older husband, or just getting caught in the moment?


So yeah just like you if that hypothetical came along- I am not sure I could sit with the enemy and wish for my countrymen and women to die. Hey, even when Roy Keane deserted on the Irish football team I still wanted him to do well in Manchester. And I am probably very far from being a nationalist

 

[Dexter]

Well most of the Nazis thought wiping out the Jews was a logical thing to do to improve Germany, do you think that that belief should be respected?

To be fair, that's not entirely accurate. Even putting aside the fact that service in Nazi Germany was compelled on pain of death to participate (one could argue that they could have simply chosen to be executed, but that's easy to say when you're not the one with the gun to your head), there's still evidence to suggest that an effort was made to cover up what was taking place.

While the Final Solution to the Jewish Question (link) was part of the Nazi war machine rhetoric, the actual existance of extermination camps (link) was at least partially covered up.

As the Soviet Red Army advanced into eastern Poland in 1944, the eastern most camps (excluding Auschwitz which was near Upper Silesia) were partly or completely dismantled by the Nazis to conceal the crimes which had taken place there.

So the possibility remains that your typical rank-and-file German soldier could have simply not known what exactly it was he was fighting for.

Aside the point, perhaps, but I just wanted to clear that up.