Hogan Should Be Flair (Hogan vs. Flair Round 23,523,532)

[ztwhite]

I've been thinking a lot about this the past couple of nights after seeing Flair at Judgment Day and on Raw last night. Hulk Hogan should be Ric Flair.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Hogan put the WWF / WWE on the map, not Flair ?? Didn't Hogan turn wrestling into the biggest entertainment extravaganza that it is today ?? Didn't Hogan make Wrestlemania one of the biggest events of the year, not only in the wrestling world, but in terms of all sporting events (don't kid yourself, it is !!) ??

Somewhere along the way, Hogan must have really crossed the McMahon family. There has never been a massive sendoff like the one Flair received at Wrestlemania 24 and the following night on Raw. Hogan kind of just faded away after his last run with the "E". Hell, the guy doesn't even make an occassional appearance anymore.

I like Flair as much as the next guy, but Flair made his mark in Vince's biggest competitor, NWA / WCW. He may be the 16 time world champ, but how many of those title reigns came while he was in NWA / WCW ? I'm pretty sure the World Heavyweight Championship belt was actually purchased by Flair for NWA / WCW (or at least the original version was), even though he eventually got his money back after holding it hostage for a while.

Even though the crowds mark out for Flair each and every time he shows up (myself included), I was at a Raw show in Cleveland, Ohio once when Hogan made a surprise appearance (at least I didn't know he was coming) and the roof damn near blew off Gund Arena (Quicken Loans Arena now). There's just nothing like hearing "I am a real American...." and seeing the yellow and red come out from the gorilla position.

I've read numerous reports where Hogan wants to be in the business, but may not be able to actually wrestle. But he could be doing the same stuff Flair has been doing as of late. I can't imagine it's about the money, although it may be. Does Hogan demand too much money, where Flair is willing to work for less ??

I'll be the first to admit that when it comes to wrestling ability, Ric Flair was heads and shoulders above Hogan in the ring. But when it comes to promo / mic work, I think it's a push. When it comes to the love and adoration of the wrestling world, I think Hogan gets the nod.

I can't imagine Vince would shy away because of Hogan's personal problems. Lots of wrestlers have personal problems, including Flair with his son and that's never caused a problem before.

Another point to justify my case actually includes those personal problems. Look at all the mainstream media coverage Hogan's divorce and sons car accident garnered. The only place that reports on Flair's kids problem is WSOC (a local station in Charlotte, NC). I'm not sure that proves anything, but Hogan gets more national media attention which could only benefit the WWE, regardless of whether it's bad publicity. Vince has proven he doesn't care what anyone thinks of him (reference his recent stints on ESPN - E:60 piece, steroids story on Outside the Lines and Sportscenter interview surrounding the Nuggets / Raw clusterfuck), so why not utilize Hogan while he's getting attention from national media outlets ?

Thoughts ??

 

[TheChristmasCreature]

IMO, the reason Flair gets the spot over Hogan is that Flair helps put others over. Look at the beat down he took from Jericho on Raw prior to Wrestlemania. I don't think Hogan would've done that.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Hogan is in NO state to wrestle. I've heard he has quite a few injuries which could be dangerous if he ever stepped foot in the ring for a real match. Yes, Hogan did more for the business in the long run, but it's not worth him being put at risk. Flair is loved by a lot of fans, I don't see a problem with him being the one to do it.

 

[ztwhite]

Hogan is in NO state to wrestle. I've heard he has quite a few injuries which could be dangerous if he ever stepped foot in the ring for a real match. Yes, Hogan did more for the business in the long run, but it's not worth him being put at risk. Flair is loved by a lot of fans, I don't see a problem with him being the one to do it.

I'm not saying I have a problem with Flair doing it either. I have a problem with Hogan doing nothing.

And yes, Hogan's in no shape to wrestle, but when was the last time Flair wrestled ? WM 24 - 14 months ago !

Hogan needs to be involved with the product. The best players in every professional sport, whether it's basketball, baseball, football, etc... always remain present in and around the game. Some become broadcasters, coaches, gm's, owners, etc...

I simply feel there needs to be a role for Hogan in the WWE, similar to what Flair is doing / has done in recent months.

 

[Crimson Mask]

I like Flair as much as the next guy, but Flair made his mark in Vince's biggest competitor, NWA / WCW. He may be the 16 time world champ, but how many of those title reigns came while he was in NWA / WCW ? I'm pretty sure the World Heavyweight Championship belt was actually purchased by Flair for NWA / WCW (or at least the original version was), even though he eventually got his money back after holding it hostage for a while.

How does the fact that Flair made his name in the NWA and a (now-defunct) rival promotion make the second choice behind Hogan to take part in an angle being done on TV now?

Referring to the NWA/WCW title situation in 1991, Flair was the recognised NWA & WCW World Champion at that time, with the "Big Gold Belt" representing both groups, after a title unification match. When Flair left WCW, due to the changes being made by Jim Herd (who had NO knowledge of the business), he was stripped of the title, but legally retained the WCW belt, as Herd refused to repay the $25,000 deposit that Flair had on the belt, as required by NWA by-laws (plus interest). After Flair had agreed a deal with Vince McMahon & the belt showed up on WWF TV, they tried to lure him back, but were unsuccessful. Only a few months later, Herd was fired and replaced with Kip Frey. However, Flair was never re-paid the money owed to him.

 

[Gerald Brisco]

Whats Hogans asking price Nowdays? 100 Billion? More? While how much does Flair ask? I have the feeling he's probably happy just to be in the show, it wouldnt be an outlandish Sum, He probably gets not even Half of what the WWE would be prepared to pay him

While Hogan is an absolute superstar, I think the WWE/F gave up on him, He never remembers that it was not just Hogan Charisma and Talent, but if it wasnt the WWF pushing him he would be nowhere today, Too Arrogant

Meanwhile Flair, i think he realises he;s comfortable in life Moneywise, seems MUCH more Humble of the Wrestling business giving him the chance, and Has not got the idea that whenever he's in the ring its not "The flair Show" He realises that there is another bloke in the corner and works with him, compared to Hogans "Screw you im Hogan" Attitude when it comes to other wrestlers.

 

[Razor]

Hogan can't wrestle. He can do the "I'm here to act tough and be the True American Hero" thing, but he can't wrestle. He can be the mouthpiece for a stable, he can be the manager of a wrestler they want to skyrocket to the top. But meh.

Neither Flair nor Hogan need to be in the current product. They have a purpose to be played in the WWE, but that purpose isn't one of dire need. They are only really needed to put younger wrestlers over, and that's by training faces and being their manager to fight the big bad heels who just have no respect for the Legends.

But guess what. There are other ways to get the wrestlers over. It's called actually booking your mid-card to be competitive, and not the "Faces always beat Heels when it counts" thing that's going on in the WWE mid-card at the moment. We need a competitive mid-card that can actually develop major players of both Heels and Faces that can open up the Main Event and give us some good, new matches. And Hogan nor Flair are needed for that.

 

[Slyfox696]

There are two reasons that Flair is there, and Hogan is not:

1) Flair is desperate for money...Hogan is not.

2) Flairs sucks off Triple H...Hogan does not (it actually may go both ways, with Triple H taking a turn for Flair).


That's really the difference. Trips apparently idolizes Flair, so Flair gets ridiculous amounts of WWE revisionist backing, and Flair is desperate to make money, any kind of money.

 

[notorious102]

First off, Hogan didn't not make the WWE what it is today! VINCE MCMAHON did!

Secondly, Flair would do it for free, Hogan wouldn't! Hogan would need the whole thing to center around him with a big payout $!!

3rd, Hogan doesn't care about the business! All Hogan cares about is the money & fame! Flair cares about this business! He lives it!

Last but not least, nobody even cared about Ric Flair until he got this big send off. People always looked at him like "Damn this old man with saggy tits is still wrestling" He should be thankful that he got that sendoff becuz after that it's when the fans actually started caring for his old saggy ass!

 

[Slyfox696]

First off, Hogan didn't not make the WWE what it is today! VINCE MCMAHON did!

Without Hogan, Vince would never have the WWE looking like it was today. Hogan was the reason for Wrestlemania. Hogan was the reason for huge profits in the 80s. Hogan was the reason that McMahon could start a merchandising promotion. Hell, Hogan in WCW was the one that really showed that "Attitude" could work.

Without Hogan, the WWE would look nothing like it does today.

Secondly, Flair would do it for free, Hogan wouldn't! Hogan would need the whole thing to center around him with a big payout $!!

That's silly. Flair wouldn't do it for free, that defeats the whole purpose of him being there. Flair is only there because he owes massive debts to the IRS, huge amounts of alimony and child support, and I'm sure money to a bunch of hookers.

3rd, Hogan doesn't care about the business! All Hogan cares about is the money & fame! Flair cares about this business! He lives it!

This might be one of the dumbest things I've ever read on these forums.

Hulk Hogan lived and breathed wrestling for 30 years. Ric Flair couldn't begin to touch Hogan in terms of what he did for the business. Everywhere Hogan went, he would sign autograph for fans, help sick children, and entertain people. Hogan has put over NUMEROUS guys in NUMEROUS ways, all trying to help the business.

Saying that Hogan doesn't care about the business is arguably the stupidest thing any wrestling fan could ever say.

 

[trevis.hull]

Hogan is pure shit. He is nothing more than a money hungry piece of shit. All he cares about is spotlight. Other than The Rock who has he put over? He said have put over HHH, HBK, and Orton. But no mister spotlight hog cant do that. Look at who Flair has put over Kenny Dykstra, Orton, Batista, HHH, Benjamin, and the list goes on. Flair is wrestling. Hogan is nothing but a piece of gutter shit.

 

[Chrisjeffers]

How about this as an answer.... Hogan is a prick! He is big time and he knows it! He would draw such a cheer that he'd start asking to hold the strap again..... On Tv Hogan comes across as a big tough man still....

Flair is old and he knows it! He will put over talent that needs to be put over....

And lets all try to remember a hogan match.... He puts his hand behind his ear to turn on the hearing aid... he has a seizure when someone punches him..... Oh yeah and the big finish! the hogan flop! It used to be a nice looking leg drop.... Now its him just falling on his ass!

At least Flair falls on his face!

Flair is a model retired Vet.... He's only there cause the fans still cheer for him!

And why trust Hogan? didn't he dip on TNA?

I LOVED Hogan! But LOVED is the word!
And besides he must be making alot of money still! CCW was awesome!

 

[Deexter Jorgan]

I find myself agreeing with Slyfox twice in one day (Hell has seriously frozen over), Hogan made the business what it is, if anyone actually took a look back at his career Hogan made wrestlemania, Hogan was the reason the WWE was selling out arenas and making big money in the 80's Hogan is the main reason the WWE has a films division because he showed that he could cross over to mainstream entertainment and do Film and TV.

Hogan is also the reason the WWE was down in the ratings and beaten like a dog by WCW, because Hogan made the company what it was until it got stale.

The reason Flair got the massive rub by the WWE is because of his stroke backstage and it is also because of the fact that his storied Career as the number one guy in the NWA has been apart of wrestling history just like Hogan, Flair made alot of money in the territory system but Unlike Hogan he spent his money like water, now flair is making money doing small indie bookings and a big WWE payday ever now and then, and because he owes favours to Vince Mcmahon and is respected by many guys in the WWE he will keep coming back again and again and again.

Hogan however has paid his dues and got his appreciation in the Hall of Fame, Hogan ended his career on his terms not the WWE's Flair did the latter.

You Cant hate on Hogan because he refused to do the job to ortan or michaels, because that aint a reason to hate the guy, Hogan put over a number of guys in the WWE that he didnt have to The Unamercians, Big Show, Brock Lesner, Kurt Angle, even Chris Jericho to name a few, so next time you want to hate on him just take a look around the forums, their are plenty of threads out there that tell the tale of what Hogan has done for this business in the old school section, because what im hering here sounds like utter drivel.

 

[notorious102]

Without Hogan, Vince would never have the WWE looking like it was today. Hogan was the reason for Wrestlemania. Hogan was the reason for huge profits in the 80s. Hogan was the reason that McMahon could start a merchandising promotion. Hell, Hogan in WCW was the one that really showed that "Attitude" could work.

Without Hogan, the WWE would look nothing like it does today.

That's silly. Flair wouldn't do it for free, that defeats the whole purpose of him being there. Flair is only there because he owes massive debts to the IRS, huge amounts of alimony and child support, and I'm sure money to a bunch of hookers.

This might be one of the dumbest things I've ever read on these forums.

Hulk Hogan lived and breathed wrestling for 30 years. Ric Flair couldn't begin to touch Hogan in terms of what he did for the business. Everywhere Hogan went, he would sign autograph for fans, help sick children, and entertain people. Hogan has put over NUMEROUS guys in NUMEROUS ways, all trying to help the business.

Saying that Hogan doesn't care about the business is arguably the stupidest thing any wrestling fan could ever say.

Vince would have still made the WWE what it is today. It was Vince's idea not Hogan! That means with or with out Hogan Vince WOULD HAVE STILL DONE IT! & Yes he would have had another star do it! Look at Warrior making more money than Hogan did at one point! Vince would still be here with the WWE, but Hogan would just be some lame actor!

As far as Flair goes maybe he would maybe he wouldn't do it for the money!

& NO you're wrong! Hogan cares about the $money and fame more than he cares about the business! PLAIN & SIMPLE!

 

[Pickle]

Vince would have still made the WWE what it is today. It was Vince's idea not Hogan! That means with or with out Hogan Vince WOULD HAVE STILL DONE IT! & Yes he would have had another star do it! Look at Warrior making more money than Hogan did at one point! Vince would still be here with the WWE, but Hogan would just be some lame actor!

If Vince has the ability to get any idea and gimmick over, regardless of the superstar playing the character, then why hasn't he been doing that for the last decade to stop the ratings from plummeting? Hogan made the character work to the extent it did. Sure he was in the right place at the right time, but when he got handed the ball he ran the hell out of it, and did it better than anyone has ever done it.

 

[Jerichoholic1]

How can any logical wrestling fan deny what Hogan has done for the wrestling biz? Utterly ******ed. Hogan was so big that when he jumped federations, the ratings followed him. One friggin guy made sooooo much money for soooo many people. All the people discrediting hogan must not have been watching wrestling back in the 80's when Hulkamania was running wild.....and no Vince would not have made WWE what it is today without Hogan. No one else back then could have played that part. Sure he wants big paydays, but christ, why would'nt he? Do you know what Vince makes every time Hogan shows up???? A WHOLE FUCKIN LOT. How can anyone say that a guy who tore both knees, a hip, and ankle up and gave 30 years of his life to something does not love it? So that means EVERY athelete is just in it for the money then? God. Kids these days.....lol.

 

[Henry Hill]

clearly the most obvious reason that ric flair is in this gimmick is that he was in evolution. and so was randy. and so was dave. and so was trips. you know who wasnt? hulk. he wasn't in evolution. seriously. and if he wanted to come back and wrestle he would. and hulk didn't have a huge in ring celebration of his retirement, then again he's also never said he's truly retired. he did however have a really big hall of fame ceremony moment. and it ignited a spot for him to come back for "one more match" which turned out to be three more in fact. hogan deserves his spot and he damn sure did everything for wrestling and he wouldnt have been able to if he didnt love it.

 

[dxparza]

i gotta agree with many when they say hogan is a money hungry, fame hungry and attention hungry selfish prick.. if he ever came back (which I hope he NEVER does) he'd want all of the attention. flair did his thing in the begining of raw and at the end. Flair is making making the fued between oton an bautista more interesting cause of their evolution days together. Orton is a major part of the future of the wwe and flair knows it and is gonna put orton over big time and make him look that much better. Hogan would prolly want a shot at the title and wanna win it. hogans time has long passed,. he needs to stay his ass at home and work on his personal issues that he has to deal with. I can go the rest of my life without hearing 'i am a real american' ever again. hes gone, all of you ''hulkamaniacs'' need to realize that an get over it..

 

[foundation611]

Without Hogan, Vince would never have the WWE looking like it was today. Hogan was the reason for Wrestlemania. Hogan was the reason for huge profits in the 80s. Hogan was the reason that McMahon could start a merchandising promotion. Hell, Hogan in WCW was the one that really showed that "Attitude" could work.

Without Hogan, the WWE would look nothing like it does today.

That's silly. Flair wouldn't do it for free, that defeats the whole purpose of him being there. Flair is only there because he owes massive debts to the IRS, huge amounts of alimony and child support, and I'm sure money to a bunch of hookers.

This might be one of the dumbest things I've ever read on these forums.

Hulk Hogan lived and breathed wrestling for 30 years. Ric Flair couldn't begin to touch Hogan in terms of what he did for the business. Everywhere Hogan went, he would sign autograph for fans, help sick children, and entertain people. Hogan has put over NUMEROUS guys in NUMEROUS ways, all trying to help the business.

Saying that Hogan doesn't care about the business is arguably the stupidest thing any wrestling fan could ever say.

Amen brother to all of this. I would say Flair is firmly number 2 behind Hogan in terms of the industry but he really can't touch Hogan. For anyone to say Hogan didn't have an ENORMOUS amount to do with the success of WWF/WWE is a joke. Without Hogan where the hell would WWE be right now? Who else would've successfully carried the ball the way he did for as long as he did. I agree Hogan should have more to do with the product than he does but Trips loves Flair and the boys in the back in general seem to respect Flair more. Someone made a good point about all the media coverage Hogan has gotten over the divorce and his sons accident. Hogan is the man. Like him or not Hogan is the biggest name in wrestling History. It's not even debatable.

 

[MetaphoriK]

In my opinion Flair has been Flair and Hogan has been Hogan for way to fricken long and that goes to show you that wrestling is on a tremendous slump. Those guys and former stars that are still kicking around will eventually die. Then what will happen? No one seems to wonder about this. There are no new stars at the moment. You can't shove someone down people's throat and say yes this is your new savior! People need to stop saying this dude is the next Austin or the next Flair or the next Hogan and what have you... People tend to say crap like that when they know the person by themselves aren't original enough to blow up based on their own abilities. There was only one Flair, there was only one Hogan, there was only one Austin, there was only one Undertaker... nothing new is being made.

 

[Razor Blade Dream]

I feel that Hogan doesn't want to play ball as much as Flair would. And it is not so much that Flair "needs the money" or anything. I think Flair knows that his time as an active guy is done and he HAS put over guys that Hogan would never even go near (Jericho). Flair does seem like a class act, granted he might have his older mentality with wrestling and I'm sure if he was in the same spot he was in WCW way back when he wouldn't give half these guys the time of day. But that was then and this is now. Hogan is an icon, we can not deny that. Flair is also an icon but he knows when to keep his ego in check. And honestly, I wouldn't want to see Hogan come out, as much as it would be a surprise, I really wouldn't care to see him after that. I'd definitely would have like to have seen Stone Cold though. Even though he was reported to having a Hogan attitude with putting guys over, I highly doubt he would ever take an Orton Punt O' Doom to the head. Even if it meant him coming back to beat Orton's ass, he would never lay down for him I don't think.

 

[pflet87413]

Everyone seems to be seeing everything in black and white, when there is a whole lot of gray in between. Yes Vince created Wrestlemania, but I do not think it would have had the same impact if Hogan was not there.
After Rocky 3, Hogan was a sensation bringing new faces into wrestling. Stars followed only because Hogan was on fire and they wanted to be in the spotlight as well. The fans followed Hogan or their favorite stars and some stayed with wrestling due to it. How many wrestlers before Hogan made it to the Tonight Show, and other talk shows. How many Wrestlers made it to the cover of Sports Illustrated. How many wrestlers won the New Japan title from Japans best Antonio Inoki. How many wrestlers were the mainevent with 93k+ at Wrestlemania. How many wrestlers made appearances on number one hit shows of it's time like the A-Team etc. How many Wrestlers had their own cartoon or TV show. Rock N Wrestling, Thunder in Paradise, Hogan Knows Best, Hulk Hogan's Celebrity Championship Wrestling.
Look at movies, yeah Hogan's movies are not good but let's look at fan support.

No Holds Barred $16,093,651 on 57 screens
The Marine $18,843,314 on 2,545 screens
The Condemned $7,327,940 on 2,310 screens
The Scorpion King $90,341,670 on 3,444 Screens

Do you think if Hogan had as many screens and tickets cost the same that he would have done better?

And where was Flair during all this, Hogan is the one that really paved the way for the entertainment world to even pay attention to wrestling, not Flair. Nothing would have been the same without Hogan, even the WWE today. Everyone knows Hogan was the nWo and if not for him bringing the attitude, WWF Attitude would have never existed, He forced them to change or go out of business. Fortunately for us, Vince won.

And let's talk greed. If you did all the things Hogan did, you would have an ego too, when millions of people tell you your the greatest, you tend to start believing it. And where did Hogan learn his greedy nature, from the master himself Vinnie Mac, everyone knows Vince is all about the money, and Hogan knows it, and has been around Vince longer than anyone to know how to play the system. Hogan even taught Bishoff. And everyone wants to hate Hogan for it, when they know HHH, Flair, Austin and the Rock have all tried, Vince just learned not to get too close due to Hogan.

Every true wrestling fan knows Flair was a great wrestler, and great on the mic. But ask any average person and chances are they won't even know who Flair is.
"Do you know who Flair is?"
"Who"
"Do you know who Hogan is?"
"You mean Hulk Hogan, the wrestler?"

Vince knows he needs another Hogan to bring in those non wrestling fans like Hogan did, he is so trying with Cena and failing miserably.

And Finally passing the torch, Hogan just won't lay down for anyone, as Shawn has always said. But he has For Warrior, Undertaker, Sting, DDP, Goldberg, Kurt Angle, Brock Lesner, the Rock. And look what that did for him, most of them are not even wrestling anymore. Hogan even said he would lay down for Austin if the story was right, and we all know the WWE has gotten bad at telling stories.

About his wrestling ability, have any of you watched his matches in Japan or his only match against Brett Hart on WCW Nitro, he can wrestle in a technical style if he really wanted.

I can go on and on about Hogan, but I have made my point.

 

[Slyfox696]

And it is not so much that Flair "needs the money" or anything.

Of course it is. Ric Flair is in serious debt. He NEEDS the money.

I think Flair knows that his time as an active guy is done and he HAS put over guys that Hogan would never even go near (Jericho).

Hulk Hogan put over ZEUS, for crying out loud.

Losing to someone has NOTHING to do with putting them over. Flair didn't put Jericho over, Jericho was already more over than Flair was. And if Flair is such a great guy when it comes to putting people over, how come he was notorious for being a backstage politicker in the 80s and 90s, and never putting guys over except those who were his friends?

The only reason Flair puts people over now is because he needs a job, not because he wants to.

Flair does seem like a class act

Yeah, if you ignore his backstabbing, holding people down, assaulting people, womanizing, owing back taxes, owing child support and alimony, etc.

If you ignore that, then sure Flair seems like a good guy.

But that was then and this is now. Hogan is an icon, we can not deny that. Flair is also an icon

If Hogan is an icon, then Flair is not, because Flair is no where near the visible figure that Hogan is.

but he knows when to keep his ego in check.

Yes, when he's desperate for a paycheck.

Even though he was reported to having a Hogan attitude with putting guys over, I highly doubt he would ever take an Orton Punt O' Doom to the head. Even if it meant him coming back to beat Orton's ass, he would never lay down for him I don't think.

A Hogan attitude for putting people over? Bull. Steve Austin doesn't want to put ANYONE over.

Hogan puts over people who are worthy and deserve it, guys like Warrior, Taker, Yokozuna, Sting, Goldberg, Angle, Lesnar, etc. No, he's not going to put over people like a 41 year old HBK or an Orton who had just returned from a 60 day suspension. They don't need it and/or don't deserve it.