Heyman on TNA: "They're not ready for me,"

[AndarielHalo]

Of course he's right, and "adamparis205920682390623068209592056890236"'s statements are just hilarious in how ridiculously short-sighted and overall wrong they are.

The main focus of the heads chop of guys over 40, I agree with. And also remember that Rob Van Dam isn't OVER 40, just yet. As such, I'd say he's worth being a main eventer for a while, but ultimately Heyman is right; the vast majority of the guys over 40 are only in TNA to leech money and get TV time

 

[JackBurton]

Paul Heyman appeared on the MMA Hour on MMAFighting.com this afternoon and commented specifically to host Ariel Helwani when asked about his negotiations with TNA and noted the following:



While Heyman has never been one to bite his tongue, so to speak, do you agree or disagree with his short-term vision (in this specific aspect) as it pertains to the future of TNA and why or why not?

Please keep in mind, there are numerous talents on the TNA over the age of 40, including 61-year old Fortune front-running Ric Flair, 42-year old Kurt Angle, 51-year old Kevin Nash, 51-year old Sting, 43-year old Jeff Jarrett, 45-year old Mick Foley, 46-year old Raven and most importantly 40-year old Rob Van Dam (among others) who's proverbial heads we'd be talking about being on the chopping block.

What do you think some of the pros & cons behind this type of abrasive action would bring about to the company? Furthermore, is there enough talent in TNA to live without them (entirely)?

Lets get this straight before all the IWC bandwagon jumpers come on;

Heyman didn't say that "the IWC was right all along". So please refrain from posting self satisfied horse-shit (not you IDR obviously)

Heyman is full of shit in this article. This is a guy who built Eastern Championship wrestling on the backs of "over the hill stars", Snuka, Rhodes and Funk to name but a few who came in "took TV time from the young talent". Don't forget, this is Heyman we're talking about, the fucking internet messiah - guilty of the same charges labeled at Hogan etc. After 3 years of that eventually the older talent was faded out and guys like Douglas, Sandman, Raven and Dreamer took over. TNA's had what, 6 months? That's 2 and a half years less leeway heyman got. Can someone please, PLEASE explain to me why its ok for some but not for others? And please be objective - none of what I've said is opinion - that's what happened. Period.

To the guy who said the rating is indicative of the quality of last Thursdays Impact;

It was 75% young talent - the very same talent that supposedly can draw without the over the hill guys. They didn't. They're not ready yet. None of them has more than 10 years in the business for christ sake.

 

[yoshi_doce2006]

Thing is that TNA needs guys like RVD and Angle, so they couldnt be chopped. Jeff Jarrett is Minority Owner so he isn't going anywhere. Flair and Nash are more mentors than anything else these days. Then Sting is set to retire by the end of the year.

So two guys to keep in the ring, Jarrett is booking the House Shows, Flair is basically a loud mouth mentor, and Nash needs to be put behind the scenes more. I think there needs to be reorganizing more than chopping of the guys over 40.

As for the spare fat that TNA carries it needs to go.

 

[MisterRob]

If no one cared about the EV2.0/Fortune beatdown, why did over half the audience of iMPACT! tune in to watch ReAction directly following iMPACT!, which featured a ton of overflow from the very concept?

In the same token, why did TNA lose almost half their audience who didn’t tune in to watch ReAction, which came on DIRECTLY after Impact ended?

Nope, but it did contain a leader who was 56-yeras old, that being Ric Flair in 2005. Marginal difference if you ask me.

What the hell are you smoking? Last time Ric Flair led any carnation of the Four Horsemen was back in 1998. He was 48 then, I do believe. Nice revisionist history, though. Flair wasn’t anything but a lackey in Evolution, nowhere near the leader of the group in WWE, if you’re trying to falsely accuse them as being the Four Horsemen.




The internet wrestling community really is prone to their own revisionist histories. I keep seeing people claim this and that and each time their views have multiple holes in them. You have IDR up there accusing ECW of being nothing but shock value, while ignoring the fact that ECW was just as much about innovative and cutting edge storylines as it was ANYTHING, and it DID have some of the best wrestlers of the era. Not only are you hypocritical in bashing ECW's vision while praising TNA whose entire show last week and the angle that revolved around it was pure shock value and nothing else, but you also short sightedly fail to realize that in Heyman's vision of ECW wrestlers like Douglas, Benoit, Guerrero, Malenko and the Luchadores were all key elements he wanted in the product. It was only because WWE and WCW raided his promotion and took those talents away that the product didn't possess those things at certain times, but that's a bit out of his hands and certainly wasn't the VISION he had in mind for his promotion as a whole.

People also seem to be confusing Heyman the booker with Heyman the owner of the company. Heyman has always been successful as a booker, and he's always booked some of the best product that's been around during those times. That has nothing to do with him as management of a company. He was horrible in management and in running ECW back in the day, there's no question about that. But that doesn't take away from the success of the product he BOOKED, and certainly doesn't in his days with WWE either. As a booker he's great and that's exactly what he'd be in TNA and nothing more.

I've heard some more of the ridiculous excuses by TNA fans, claiming as always how TNA's only been around for 8 years. That they don't have a lineage and legacy to fall back on. That their talent hasn't had enough time to become name recognized stars. TNA has not only been around for 8 years, but they also have the lineage and legacies of guys like Hogan, Flair and Bischoff. How much more legacy do you need!? When TNA promotes Hogan they're promoting a legacy that stems as far back as WWE's early days. When TNA promotes Flair they're promoting a legacy that stems as far back as early WCW. Same with Sting! And the list has gone on and on.

How long did it take Kevin Nash to become a star? A year? How long did it take Scott Hall as Razor Ramon to become a star? It's all because of how they were booked! It's all based around how their characters were developed over those few years and continuing on into WCW when they entered it as top stars. Did they have old veterans that put them over and helped make their names? Uhmm, no. During that time they consistently feuded with guys like Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart who were both in their primes too and just breaking out. During that time they became stars based off of booking and the feuds they were involved in and how WWE pushed them, and they BECAME stars and house hold names. How long’s it taken TNA to develop Alex Shelley, Chris Sabin, AJ Styles, Beer Money, etc, into talent that are still not even at the heights they should be as top stars? Riiight.


The way TNA is going to develop new stars and make those stars into draws for the company is by booking them into being so, not depending on name recognition. Paul Heyman proved in ECW, time and time again, that he could help a star standout and become a star. Did those stars breakout in other companies? Of course they did. But WWE and WCW saw and realized the potential of those stars because of Paul Heyman and their time in ECW. There's no doubt in my mind that Heyman could do the same with a great deal of TNA talent right now, showing the best of them that'll help make them draws, while hiding the negatives that won't. It's what he's good at. He was in ECW, he was on Smackdown in WWE, and he was even in FCW.

 

[JackBurton]

In the same token, why did TNA lose almost half their audience who didn’t tune in to watch ReAction, which came on DIRECTLY after Impact ended?



What the hell are you smoking? Last time Ric Flair led any carnation of the Four Horsemen was back in 1998. He was 48 then, I do believe. Nice revisionist history, though. Flair wasn’t anything but a lackey in Evolution, nowhere near the leader of the group in WWE, if you’re trying to falsely accuse them as being the Four Horsemen.




The internet wrestling community really is prone to their own revisionist histories. I keep seeing people claim this and that and each time their views have multiple holes in them. You have IDR up there accusing ECW of being nothing but shock value, while ignoring the fact that ECW was just as much about innovative and cutting edge storylines as it was ANYTHING, and it DID have some of the best wrestlers of the era. Not only are you hypocritical in bashing ECW's vision while praising TNA whose entire show last week and the angle that revolved around it was pure shock value and nothing else, but you also short sightedly fail to realize that in Heyman's vision of ECW wrestlers like Douglas, Benoit, Guerrero, Malenko and the Luchadores were all key elements he wanted in the product. It was only because WWE and WCW raided his promotion and took those talents away that the product didn't possess those things at certain times, but that's a bit out of his hands and certainly wasn't the VISION he had in mind for his promotion as a whole.

People also seem to be confusing Heyman the booker with Heyman the owner of the company. Heyman has always been successful as a booker, and he's always booked some of the best product that's been around during those times. That has nothing to do with him as management of a company. He was horrible in management and in running ECW back in the day, there's no question about that. But that doesn't take away from the success of the product he BOOKED, and certainly doesn't in his days with WWE either. As a booker he's great and that's exactly what he'd be in TNA and nothing more.

I've heard some more of the ridiculous excuses by TNA fans, claiming as always how TNA's only been around for 8 years. That they don't have a lineage and legacy to fall back on. That their talent hasn't had enough time to become name recognized stars. TNA has not only been around for 8 years, but they also have the lineage and legacies of guys like Hogan, Flair and Bischoff. How much more legacy do you need!? When TNA promotes Hogan they're promoting a legacy that stems as far back as WWE's early days. When TNA promotes Flair they're promoting a legacy that stems as far back as early WCW. Same with Sting! And the list has gone on and on.

How long did it take Kevin Nash to become a star? A year? How long did it take Scott Hall as Razor Ramon to become a star? It's all because of how they were booked! It's all based around how their characters were developed over those few years and continuing on into WCW when they entered it as top stars. Did they have old veterans that put them over and helped make their names? Uhmm, no. During that time they consistently feuded with guys like Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart who were both in their primes too and just breaking out. During that time they became stars based off of booking and the feuds they were involved in and how WWE pushed them, and they BECAME stars and house hold names. How long’s it taken TNA to develop Alex Shelley, Chris Sabin, AJ Styles, Beer Money, etc, into talent that are still not even at the heights they should be as top stars? Riiight.


The way TNA is going to develop new stars and make those stars into draws for the company is by booking them into being so, not depending on name recognition. Paul Heyman proved in ECW, time and time again, that he could help a star standout and become a star. Did those stars breakout in other companies? Of course they did. But WWE and WCW saw and realized the potential of those stars because of Paul Heyman and their time in ECW. There's no doubt in my mind that Heyman could do the same with a great deal of TNA talent right now, showing the best of them that'll help make them draws, while hiding the negatives that won't. It's what he's good at. He was in ECW, he was on Smackdown in WWE, and he was even in FCW.

I have to agree and say your assessment of Heyman as a great mind for the business of drawing money is spot on - he isn't overrated in that regard. I do though, have to take issue with your points about the value of name guys. You mentioned revisionism and indulge in it yourself. Heyman used old stars to garner recognition for his promotion. Heyman clearly sees the value in doing this when you have no-one with any "star power", if you wanna call it that. He wasn't wrong either and that's why I called bullshit in my earlier post. There's a long list of older talent that went through Eastern Championship wrestling and then Extreme Championship Wrestling. They were all featured prominently, certainly no less than TNA features some of their veterans.

It all boils down to a real lack of understanding of what gets someone over. You cant just work with Johnny Nobody all the time and expect to be invited as a guest on Leno. Hall and Nash, whilst not "put over" on TV or PPV by older talent on more than a couple of occasions, spent the best part of their early career working with/against some top stars from the 80's. Hall has a very cool story about Larry Zabysko and basically says he owes him his career - this is a guy Hall lay down for on many many occasions, don't hear him complaining? Why? Probably because, unlike these ungrateful, self-entitled nobodies - he shut his mouth and opened his fucking ears. I've been told first hand a story which illustrates my point; A certain TNA corner stone throwing a fit because a veteran, whos task it was to educate the little shit, had the cheek to ask AJ to sell for 7 or 8 minutes then get it all back in the comeback. This talent, along with all the other young guys, have been fucking themselves out of a spot for years by refusing to learn how to work rather than going out there every night and having a circle jerk with each other. Its funny how now the likes of AJ and Kaz have started to learn a little about psychology, when to do things and why, that suddenly they're getting a little traction. Now imagine they'd pulled their heads out of the asses and stopped playing wrestler and become a worker 5 or 6 years ago?! They'd be the established talent. They'd be the ones to break in the new guys. And then you wouldn't need the older stars long term.

If its good enough for a genius like Heyman - then its good enough for me.

 

[MisterRob]

I have to agree and say your assessment of Heyman as a great mind for the business of drawing money is spot on - he isn't overrated in that regard. I do though, have to take issue with your points about the value of name guys. You mentioned revisionism and indulge in it yourself. Heyman used old stars to garner recognition for his promotion. Heyman clearly sees the value in doing this when you have no-one with any "star power", if you wanna call it that. He wasn't wrong either and that's why I called bullshit in my earlier post. There's a long list of older talent that went through Eastern Championship wrestling and then Extreme Championship Wrestling. They were all featured prominently, certainly no less than TNA features some of their veterans.

It all boils down to a real lack of understanding of what gets someone over. You cant just work with Johnny Nobody all the time and expect to be invited as a guest on Leno. Hall and Nash, whilst not "put over" on TV or PPV by older talent on more than a couple of occasions, spent the best part of their early career working with/against some top stars from the 80's. Hall has a very cool story about Larry Zabysko and basically says he owes him his career - this is a guy Hall lay down for on many many occasions, don't hear him complaining? Why? Probably because, unlike these ungrateful, self-entitled nobodies - he shut his mouth and opened his fucking ears. I've been told first hand a story which illustrates my point; A certain TNA corner stone throwing a fit because a veteran, whos task it was to educate the little shit, had the cheek to ask AJ to sell for 7 or 8 minutes then get it all back in the comeback. This talent, along with all the other young guys, have been fucking themselves out of a spot for years by refusing to learn how to work rather than going out there every night and having a circle jerk with each other. Its funny how now the likes of AJ and Kaz have started to learn a little about psychology, when to do things and why, that suddenly they're getting a little traction. Now imagine they'd pulled their heads out of the asses and stopped playing wrestler and become a worker 5 or 6 years ago?! They'd be the established talent. They'd be the ones to break in the new guys. And then you wouldn't need the older stars long term.

If its good enough for a genius like Heyman - then its good enough for me.

I’m not indulging in revisionism at all. What old talent did ECW have that were actually any kind of draws with name recognition? Terry Funk? Terry Funk was a guy who would put over the young talent and work with them to make them into stars, and not once did he WANT the spotlight for himself. Sure he won the ECW title, but during his time in ECW he did far more to put over the talent that had no name recognition (whether it was in matches, or in angles, or mentoring) then he did hold the top spot for himself. What other old wrestlers with any name recognition did ECW really have who had much of an impact there? Ron Simmons? He wasn’t there for all that long and he never was the top star of the company. ECW was clearly built on the ‘current’ youth movement at the time, far different from TNA whose always, really, been dominated by older stars. Jeff Jarrett was past his time when he dominated the main event scene in TNA and clung to the spotlight. Sting certainly was, Mick Foley, the MEM, Rob Van Dam right now should be in the ‘putting over talent’ stage of his career but he’s not.


Your Scott Hall reference is a good one, although that was back when Scott Hall was coming up in the territories and really before he was in a national promotion like WWF or WCW and broke out as a star. It’s no different then TNA talent right now who’ve been in the indys and learned a great deal from older veterans in the indy scene, which countless of them have, before coming to the big time stage of TNA (compared to the Indy’s anyway). But when Scott Hall was in the WWF it was the booking of him in those early years that helped develop him into a star. It was his feuds with other young talents in their prime that helped cement him as a top guy. They all made each other at that time, they weren’t made by older stars with previous name recognition. It goes to show you that younger talent can become stars and successful if the booking is good and they’re allowed to perform at the levels they can, and most importantly if they’re given the BALL.

But yes, I'm glad we agree on Heyman.

 

[RD_21]

When some of you are blasting Heyman or saying that he is overrated because he didn't book anything successful, you refer to ECW or OVW as niche product most of the time. But most of you if not all seem to forget the period when Heyman was booking Smackdown! and that Smackdown! was starting to become the better show of the 2.

Heyman has proven that he can adapt and do great things, but no one can say for sure if he would be able to do it in TNA.

 

[Bobby B]

Yes, made them relevant, by issuing them as intermediates in a niche company who's focus was on maintaining the blood thirst of ultra-violence fans. Austin may have been prematurely born in ECW, but believe me, it was the WWE that birthed him, not ECW - ECW simply used him for a short span while still quenching the thirst of the blood-thirsty. The premise of that company was on shock value, not wrestling value, so to sit there and tell me that there are examples of wrestlers who made their careers there who were not hardcore wrestlers is false – all of those wrestlers (Jericho, Mysterio, etc.) made their names afterward. They just used ECW as a springboard. It's not the same at all.

They moved on from ECW because of money, and wanting to pursue their careers. Many of the talent that stayed in ECW were on their way down from the top. They were misused by WCW/WWF. Guys like Jericho, Beniot, Mysterio were plucked from ECW by Bischoff because they drew. That's no slight on ECW, they left because they wanted bigger exposure and more money - which for a company still in its development is no shame.

On the subject of Austin. You can't have a go at ECW simply because he made his name in WWF. Of course he did, because they had many more viewers. WCW showed that booking Austin was by no means a forgone conclusion. Bischoff claiming that "Stunning Steve" was 'unmarketable' (Source - see paragraph 6).

Heyman booked an Austin character that went on to form the basis of his character in WWF. Maybe it was obvious - but Bischoff didn't see it.

TNA doesn't have a niche at all. Their niche, if any, is serving as an "alternative" to the WWE. That's it. They've yet to gimmick themselves into something as specific as ECW or ROH did, and I'm not entirely sure they need to – it certainly didn't do wonders for either of those companies. It worked for ECW, relatively speaking, but it never took them to the heights of stardom we're expecting of TNA, so to compare the two (or three) is apples to oranges.

The only thing that stops TNA from being the same size as ROH is the money. If ECW had the pockets of TNA it would still be running today. As for not being like ECW - I don't see much difference between either product in the last month or so. More matches than not have invovled weapons, stipulations, and blood. It may not have been where TNA came from, but it's seemingly where they are going.

As for your comment about the same level as stardom of TNA. TNA is drawing remarkably similar TV ratings to what ECW did when they were on TNN. And ECW buyrates were much larger. OK the business may not be as strong now as it once was, but ECW first PPV (way before they had a nationwide TV deal) bought many more numbers in than current TNA PPV's do.

ECW never had the names that were built in other companies like TNA does. It couldn't afford them. But ECW's achievement with very little backing is far greater than TNA's with such deep pockets.

It doesn't matter. They, just like ECW and ROH among others had a marginal taste of success, which is paramount to the argument here when juxtaposed with the level of success that is being expected of TNA. Apples to oranges, again.

See above. I've seen nothing to suggest TNA is any bigger right now than ECW was.

I disagree, as fans almost certainly care about Alex Shelley, Chris Sabin, Beer Money, Inc., AJ Styles, and Samoa Joe among others – all of whom have been built by TNA over the years. None may be household names when you compare them to the legacy and lineage of the WWE's current crop of "up and comers", but then again, neither were half the guys created by the WWF before they were actually created and built over years. You have any idea who Vinnie Vegas is? No? Bet you know who Diesel and Kevin Nash are though, huh?

Oh please. People care about Shelly, Styles etc... because they put on good matches. But there characters are non-existant.

"We're from the Motor City" - great. Now whats special about you? "er... we can fly around". Every TNA gimmick is a name and a concept. "Beer Money" - they drink beer - that's it. No character development. Abyss is probably the only exception to this rule - and his character is hardly the most revolutionary thing I've ever seen.

Oh, and Jack Swagger, John Morrison, etc. do? Please, man – take your foot out of your mouth so I can at least try to understand the point you're trying to make. Again, this is predicated on the WWE's lineage, and not the actual ability of their performers. No one would give a fuck about Jack Swagger in ROH or in TNA or anywhere else for that matter if he wasn't a WWE wrestler with the WWE backing him. Same goes for guys like Drew McIntyre, John Morrison, over half of the Nexus, etc.

Yeah, some of this is true. Morrison, and Swagger I'll give you. But I don't really feel you've given some of the Nexus guys a chance. They've just passed their sixth month mark on TV (although you may well end up being right - Slater, Young and Gabriel don't bode well for long term characters). But these guys have only been on TV for six months.

And besides. These guys are the exceptions to the rule. In TNA - characters like Morrison and Swagger are everywhere. I'm not saying WWE is perfect, but it's lightyears ahead of TNA when it comes to character development.

Styles has been on TV for years, and his character his still completely dull. Sure he can wrestle to a very high standard. But out of the ring there is nothing. Just like all the rest - a name "AJ Styles", and a concept "The Phenomenal One". Now what? Erm...

Just look at Jeff Hardy. He's crap in TNA because they have not got a clue how to use him. Just look at the formula - a name "Jeff Hardy" - a concept "The Charistmatic Enigma" (whatever that means). Now what? "He was a big name in WWE - this must work".

It hasn't, on any level.

That may be true, but I don't think that's an indictment on the fact that TNA fans, which you are carelessly lump-summing into a group that's represented by the fans at the iMPACT! Zone, don't care about the product. If anything, that's proven false every week when over 1 million homes tune in to watch the show. That number may be marginal when you compare it to a company like the WWE who've been around for over two decades, but it's not when you compare it to other starters without the same history to point to.

If no one cared about the EV2.0/Fortune beatdown, why did over half the audience of iMPACT! tune in to watch ReAction directly following iMPACT!, which featured a ton of overflow from the very concept?

As another has said, half tuned in, but half turned off. Reaction is bound to do well this week. But you can't come off each impact with an invasion angle.

Impact numbers are on the same level as ECW. Business has dropped off a bit, but ECW never had any stars that were made elsewhere. Infact, it says everything about ECW - that some of the best characters in TNA right now who are the draws - The Dudleys, RVD and EV2 - were all made by ECW. TNA have added zero to their characters - because they don't know how to.

Equal? TNA has Hogan, Flair and Angle – of which only Angle wrestles for them semi-regularly. The WWE has the Undertaker, Chris Jericho, Edge, John Cena, HHH, Big Show, Rey Mysterio, Kane, etc. I'd hardly call that equal. Most of the veterans in TNA are there as mouth-pieces, not performers, so it's much more difficult for them to get guys over the way Jericho does on a weekly basis for the WWE products.

I was comparing iMPACT to NXT. NXT carries the WWE name (but none of the big stars). And yet it draws similar numbers as iMPACT does with Angle, RVD, Kennedy, Hardy etc...

As for most of the verterans in TNA being mouth pieces - Sting, Nash, Hall, Flair - they've all still been wrestling. And Hogan would - if his back allowed it.

Yet you know what of Jack Swagger, Drew McIntyre, etc.? Why do they get labeled a success, while their counterparts in TNA fail?

Swagger, I'll give you. But McIntyre has a character far more developed than most in TNA. Unlike TNA, the concept of his character actually works within storylines.

Nope, but it did contain a leader who was 56-yeras old, that being Ric Flair in 2005. Marginal difference if you ask me.

Flair never lead Evolution.

Right, I forgot, because all of wrestling needs to be focused on the most literal sense of realism, right? That must be why 3'2 Rey Mysterio was capable of beating 7'0 Kane, right?

No one cares about that title because since the day AJ, Joe and Daniels moved on, none of the spot monkeys that people are so convinced they need to return to were worth watching - that is why he's in a feud with Doug Williams for a "title no one cares about anymore". If anything, Williams has done a fantastic job of making people care for it again by making them hate him for the very reason the title was deflated to begin with – for being against the spot monkeys.

If you ask me, the current X Division championship storyline is the best storyline they've had since Jerry Lynn/Daniels/Sabin.

What storyline? He won the X-Division title. Then only one person tried to take it off him. Now this challengers have all dissapeared. This angle only works if people want the belt. Right now, nobody does.

Bland wrestlers without personality? Are you fucking mad? AJ Styles has more personality in his pubic hair than half of Nexus, yet I bet you'd be all over the Nexus being the "hottest thing in wrestling" a few weeks prior. The only one without a personality in that group is Kaz, and it just so happens he's also the least important of them all.

Like I said above. I agree about Nexus, but you must atleast give them time to develop. Styles has no personality. Neither does Beer Money, or Kazarian.

 

[Reddannihilation]

The only thing that stops TNA from being the same size as ROH is the money. If ECW had the pockets of TNA it would still be running today. As for not being like ECW - I don't see much difference between either product in the last month or so. More matches than not have invovled weapons, stipulations, and blood. It may not have been where TNA came from, but it's seemingly where they are going.

Load of bullshit, how many gimmick matches ran last week? How about the week before? I somewhat doubt you watch TNA.

As for your comment about the same level as stardom of TNA. TNA is drawing remarkably similar TV ratings to what ECW did when they were on TNN. And ECW buyrates were much larger. OK the business may not be as strong now as it once was, but ECW first PPV (way before they had a nationwide TV deal) bought many more numbers in than current TNA PPV's do.

Doesn't seem to matter how often this gets said, YOU CANNOT POSSIBLY KNOW TNA'S PPV BUYRATES. And neither can hacks like Meltzer and Madden, if they were to have access to these numbers they'd find themselves in some serious legal trouble.

ECW never had the names that were built in other companies like TNA does. It couldn't afford them. But ECW's achievement with very little backing is far greater than TNA's with such deep pockets.

Being that you have no idea how much money TNA has or doesn't have how are you so aware as to the "deepness of their pockets"? Oh right, you aren't.

See above. I've seen nothing to suggest TNA is any bigger right now than ECW was.

How about the fact that TNA is broadcast internationally and didn't go under a year after getting a TV deal?

Oh please. People care about Shelly, Styles etc... because they put on good matches. But there characters are non-existant.

Ah yes, you speak for everybody. Alex Shelley and AJ Style both have characters.

"We're from the Motor City" - great. Now whats special about you? "er... we can fly around".

And it's bullshit like this that proves you're talking out of you ass. The MCMG spent the last two years crafting characters, they're smart asses, they've always pushed their belief that they've been held back and they're a very ego driven team. I guess you missed that while you weren't watching.

Every TNA gimmick is a name and a concept. "Beer Money" - they drink beer - that's it.

And again legitimate proof that you have no idea what you're talking about. Beer Money's gimmick is that Robert Roode is a rich-boy from the city and that James Storm is a beer drinking redneck. They've also spent years creating their persona's as a group of disrespectful guys, out for themselves. Most notably during their feud with 3D when they let 3D get the shit kicked out of them, despite 3D saving Beer Money the week previous. Beer Money have a great identity and character, you just haven't watched it.

No character development. Abyss is probably the only exception to this rule - and his character is hardly the most revolutionary thing I've ever seen.

As I've already pointed out you clearly don't watch TNA. So eh.

Yeah, some of this is true. Morrison, and Swagger I'll give you. But I don't really feel you've given some of the Nexus guys a chance. They've just passed their sixth month mark on TV (although you may well end up being right - Slater, Young and Gabriel don't bode well for long term characters). But these guys have only been on TV for six months.

And one of them is already gone.

And besides. These guys are the exceptions to the rule. In TNA - characters like Morrison and Swagger are everywhere. I'm not saying WWE is perfect, but it's lightyears ahead of TNA when it comes to character development.

Bullshit, Jay Lethal, AJ, Joe, Douglas Williams, Desmond Wolfe, Magnus, MCMG, Beer Money, etc. Each of them has far more character than most of the WWE.

Styles has been on TV for years, and his character his still completely dull. Sure he can wrestle to a very high standard. But out of the ring there is nothing. Just like all the rest - a name "AJ Styles", and a concept "The Phenomenal One". Now what? Erm...

And again, proof that you have no idea what you're talking about. AJ spent years as the superb in-ring talent who could beat anybody. He was also easily led astray by Cage and the Angles. Last year he rose to the top beating everyone in his path. Except Kurt Angle, so he had his matches with Kurt and the two were evenly matched, out of fear AJ sided with Flair to make sure he couldn't lose the title. Since then AJ's become a spoilt brat who can't stand the idea of losing. Good character.

Just look at Jeff Hardy. He's crap in TNA because they have not got a clue how to use him. Just look at the formula - a name "Jeff Hardy" - a concept "The Charistmatic Enigma" (whatever that means). Now what? "He was a big name in WWE - this must work".

TNA is playing it safe by not pushing a guy who could potentially end up in jail. Nothing wrong there.

As for most of the verterans in TNA being mouth pieces - Sting, Nash, Hall, Flair - they've all still been wrestling. And Hogan would - if his back allowed it.

Really Scott Hall? Does he even work there anymore? When was the last match Nash wrestled? Has Flair done more than 5 matches in the past 6 months? Right.

Swagger, I'll give you. But McIntyre has a character far more developed than most in TNA. Unlike TNA, the concept of his character actually works within storylines.

What character does Drew McIntyre have? "I'm Drew McIntyre, wah wah wah, Theodore Long this, Vince that". He has none.

Flair never lead Evolution.

He's not leading Fourtune.

What storyline? He won the X-Division title. Then only one person tried to take it off him. Now this challengers have all dissapeared. This angle only works if people want the belt. Right now, nobody does.

And if we needed more proof you don't watch. Williams has feuded with Shannon Moore, Kaz, Daniels and Brian Kendrick since winning. He's set to feud with Lethal.

Like I said above. I agree about Nexus, but you must atleast give them time to develop. Styles has no personality. Neither does Beer Money, or Kazarian.

You couldn't be more wrong, as I've already shown above.

 

[Bobby B]

Load of bullshit, how many gimmick matches ran last week? How about the week before? I somewhat doubt you watch TNA.

All gimmick matches since Victory Road (excluding Hardcore Justice)

15th July

Sarita vs Taylor Wilde - Street Fight
Brian Kendrick vs Doug Williams - I Quit Match
MCMG vs Beer Money - Ladder Match

22nd July

MCMG vs Beer Money - Street Fight

29th July

MCMG vs Beer Money - Cage Match
Abyss vs Tommy Dreamer - Hardcore Match

5th August

MCMG vs Beer Money - Ultimate X Match
Ric Flair vs Jay Lethal - Street Fight

12th August

MCMG vs Beer Moeny - 2 out of 3 falls match (I guess this isn't a stipulation match in the true sense of the word).
RVD vs Abyss - Stairway to Janice Match

-

So on average that's two stipulation matches a week. Maybe it's not quite 50%, but it's still a hell of a lot.

That combined with the numerous times that we see a weapon or weapons invovled during or after the match. This is feeling very much like ECW.

Doesn't seem to matter how often this gets said, YOU CANNOT POSSIBLY KNOW TNA'S PPV BUYRATES. And neither can hacks like Meltzer and Madden, if they were to have access to these numbers they'd find themselves in some serious legal trouble.

Your deluded. Coming from the person who said that he wouldn't believe that Paul Heyman was in talks with TNA, when Heyman has come out on record and said that he's spoken with them on a number of occasions in the last year.

Being that you have no idea how much money TNA has or doesn't have how are you so aware as to the "deepness of their pockets"? Oh right, you aren't

Maybe not. But Panda Energy have deep enough pockets.

How about the fact that TNA is broadcast internationally and didn't go under a year after getting a TV deal?

It's quite easy when the network your are on isn't negotiating with WWF to bring them in.

Ah yes, you speak for everybody. Alex Shelley and AJ Style both have characters.

And it's bullshit like this that proves you're talking out of you ass. The MCMG spent the last two years crafting characters, they're smart asses, they've always pushed their belief that they've been held back and they're a very ego driven team. I guess you missed that while you weren't watching.

And again legitimate proof that you have no idea what you're talking about. Beer Money's gimmick is that Robert Roode is a rich-boy from the city and that James Storm is a beer drinking redneck. They've also spent years creating their persona's as a group of disrespectful guys, out for themselves. Most notably during their feud with 3D when they let 3D get the shit kicked out of them, despite 3D saving Beer Money the week previous. Beer Money have a great identity and character, you just haven't watched it.

As I've already pointed out you clearly don't watch TNA. So eh.

All your opinion.

TNA is playing it safe by not pushing a guy who could potentially end up in jail. Nothing wrong there.

Begs the question why you'd employ him in the first place. And besides, just because you don't want to put the strap on him doesn't mean he can't be utilised properly. TNA simply can't do it.

Really Scott Hall? Does he even work there anymore? When was the last match Nash wrestled? Has Flair done more than 5 matches in the past 6 months? Right

Sting was in a title match two months ago. Hall is still employed by TNA, he's in rehab. He and Nash would probably still be tag champions if this wasn't the case. 5 matches in 6 months is probably all Flair can manage.

He's not leading Fourtune.

Come again?

 

[Wade's Public Transit Bomb]

I guess I am the only one who doesn't event want Heyman in TNA. The guy ran a regional company (aka couldn't do shit outside of the Northeast) into the ground because promoting Paul Heyman and lying to people has always been the number priority for Heyman.

I don't think TNA needs Paul Heyman. They just need to limit and/or fire Russo. Apparently, this past summer was a 'tired' Vince Russo and it was prolly the best TNA has been in years, imo. Nothing's perfect, but I am an avid believer of changing the fucking channel if I am bored or what I am watching sucks.

 

[Reddannihilation]

So on average that's two stipulation matches a week. Maybe it's not quite 50%, but it's still a hell of a lot.

So thanks for admitting you were wrong.

That combined with the numerous times that we see a weapon or weapons invovled during or after the match. This is feeling very much like ECW.

Yeah, no one ever attacked someone with a weapon before ECW.

Your deluded. Coming from the person who said that he wouldn't believe that Paul Heyman was in talks with TNA, when Heyman has come out on record and said that he's spoken with them on a number of occasions in the last year.

Yes and just because Paul Heyman says it, it must be true

Maybe not. But Panda Energy have deep enough pockets.

And where do you get that info?

It's quite easy when the network your are on isn't negotiating with WWF to bring them in.

And you realise that Spike has very little to do with TNA's international broadcasts? Obviously not.

All your opinion.

Right, it's my opinion that legitimate occurences happened. Sorry but you've pretty much proven that you don't watch TNA. The fact that you literally wrote off Beer Money's gimmick as "they drink beer" is the perfect example that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Begs the question why you'd employ him in the first place.

Because he's a popular star.

And besides, just because you don't want to put the strap on him doesn't mean he can't be utilised properly. TNA simply can't do it.

Right, care to explain how you use him "properly". He's no different in TNA than he was in WWE. Not at all.

Sting was in a title match two months ago. Hall is still employed by TNA, he's in rehab. He and Nash would probably still be tag champions if this wasn't the case. 5 matches in 6 months is probably all Flair can manage.

Right so, Sting was in a title match and Flair's had 5 matches in 6 months. Oh noes the old guyz iz takin' it OVA.

Come again?

He's the manager. He's not some active leader like he was in the Horsemen. If anything Flair's role in Fourtune is more akin to that of JJ Dillon in the original Horsemen. So no, Flair isn't the leader.

 

[shattered dreams]

I have been losing respect for Heyman over this whole thing. Maybe it is an elaborate work and I can regain it but I have my doubts. I think the biggest problem is that the type of company TNA is right now is directly related to Heyman's biggest failure. Heyman can take a nobody company and build it to TNA's level by chopping vets and creating interesting young future stars and stories. He can take an established mainstream company and do some good things with it. However, that company on the verge has provided him issues. So I have to wonder how well a power hungry Heyman would fit in. I agree with Heyman about the singular vision, however, it sure seems like we have that recently. So when Heyman keeps repeating that I have to question if he is grinding an axe or simply not following the product. I thought it was tacky of him to blow off HardCore Justice without a compelling reason, unless fear of Lesnar not being your sugar daddy anymore is a compelling reason. I'd see what the current regime can do through BFG before doing anything half as radical as Heyman's suggestions.

 

[MisterRob]

He's the manager. He's not some active leader like he was in the Horsemen. If anything Flair's role in Fourtune is more akin to that of JJ Dillon in the original Horsemen. So no, Flair isn't the leader.

I just feel the need to point out how ABSOLUTELY wrong you are in this case. Maybe you didn't actually ever see the original Four Horsemen and are a hypocritE, I don't know. Ric Flair, in the original Four Horsemen, was never a lackey following every demand of J.J. Dillon. Dillon managed and was at the side of Tully Blanchard, he really wasn't often at the side as a 'manager' of Flair or the Andersons. He was claimed to be the strategic leader of the Horsemen, but there's no question it was the other members who were leading the actions they were taking and Ric Flair held the spotlight unmistakably. Whose the leader of Fourtune? AJ Styles? AJ Styles, from the very beginning, has been nothing but a lackey to Flair. He's done nothing but follow every command Flair has, do everything he can to make Flair happy, and basically be portrayed as Flair's bitch. Ric Flair never ever was anything remotely close to that as the leader of the Four Horsemen.

Flair's the leader, Fourtune revolves around HIM and his vision, and anyone with even close to half a brain could see that.


And that was exactly what Heyman meant when he said cutting off the heads of the 40 over club. Heyman would make damn sure guys like Styles and Beer Money stood on their own and shined on their own, not be lackeys of Ric Flair whose still clinging to his own spotlight and his own legacy and guiding a remake of a stable that revolves entirely around his legacy. If anything Heyman would've used Flair much the same way WWE did in Evolution, because that was far more effective a role of being mentor and not only offering experience to the inexperienced, but helping to get the younger guys over and turning them into stars without stealing their spotlight. That was much closer to J.J.Dillon then what's happening in TNA right now.

 

[thunderfromdownunder]

so you guys have the shits with heyman because he does not want to join TNA while , bischoff , hogan , russo ,jarret dixie and company all have some sort of creative control ,and say in what is going . he would be stupid if he went back at the current time and ruined his credibility. after all the politics he went through with the wwe. i agree with the people who say you need star power but to say that the best that heyman can do is put pope and morgan as headliners are missing the whole point of creative booking. russo and the current tna croneys have next to no idea on how to effectively book characters. its 3 am over here and i am tired so i am not going to drone on about this point but people have to remember back in 1993 when heyman was building ecw , there was no internet , the only way people outside of the philly area could find out about ecw was through tape trading. if the internet and video footage was as accessible as it is now ecw would of been HUGE! the only way i found out about tna so quickly , and im sure a lot of people did also was through the internet...

 

[Reddannihilation]

I just feel the need to point out how ABSOLUTELY wrong you are in this case. Maybe you didn't actually ever see the original Four Horsemen and are a hypocritE, I don't know.

You keep using the word but I don't think you know what it means!

Ric Flair, in the original Four Horsemen, was never a lackey following every demand of J.J. Dillon. Dillon managed and was at the side of Tully Blanchard, he really wasn't often at the side as a 'manager' of Flair or the Andersons.

So when AJ freaked out and challenged Kaz to a match, that was Flair's doing? When AJ lead the assault on EV2.0 that was Flair leading them, I suppose AJ stabbing Dinero in the eye with a pen to retain the title at Lockdown was Flair's idea too. AJ's the leader, Flair's the mentor.

He was claimed to be the strategic leader of the Horsemen, but there's no question it was the other members who were leading the actions they were taking and Ric Flair held the spotlight unmistakably. Whose the leader of Fourtune? AJ Styles? AJ Styles, from the very beginning, has been nothing but a lackey to Flair.

A lackey who spent months going against Flair? Interesting.

He's done nothing but follow every command Flair has, do everything he can to make Flair happy, and basically be portrayed as Flair's bitch. Ric Flair never ever was anything remotely close to that as the leader of the Four Horsemen.

See above.

Flair's the leader, Fourtune revolves around HIM and his vision, and anyone with even close to half a brain could see that.

No, AJ's the leader, Flair's the mentor. He's preparing a new group to take over, his vision, but the key player is AJ. Also you may wish to bone up on the dicitionary before calling other people stupid.

And that was exactly what Heyman meant when he said cutting off the heads of the 40 over club.

No, Heyman was just making sure the IWC suck his dick just a little more, as it's obvious TNA doesn't need or want him.

Heyman would make damn sure guys like Styles and Beer Money stood on their own and shined on their own,

Cos he's done that before hasn't he? Oh, no. He hasn't, Heyman's ECW never meant a damn thing, Heyman's got no proven track record that he could somehow take everyone under 40 in TNA and make them stars. If he could do that, then ECW wouldn't have gone down like the Titanic.

not be lackeys of Ric Flair whose still clinging to his own spotlight and his own legacy and guiding a remake of a stable that revolves entirely around his legacy. If anything Heyman would've used Flair much the same way WWE did in Evolution, because that was far more effective a role of being mentor and not only offering experience to the inexperienced, but helping to get the younger guys over and turning them into stars without stealing their spotlight. That was much closer to J.J.Dillon then what's happening in TNA right now.

Really? Well let's think about that, in Evolution Ric Flair and Batista beat Van Dam and Booker T for the tag titles. What titles does he have in TNA? Flair losing to Lethal? Flair uniting the future stars of TNA as a group designed to dominate TNA? No, I guess those aren't ways to get people over at all.

If you grasped at any more straws your name would be the Wickerman.

 

[thunderfromdownunder]

Cos he's done that before hasn't he? Oh, no. He hasn't, Heyman's ECW never meant a damn thing, Heyman's got no proven track record that he could somehow take everyone under 40 in TNA and make them stars. If he could do that, then ECW wouldn't have gone down like the Titanic.

heyman made a lot of stars in ecw. and at the first chance the wcw/wwf signed them up for big money. thats one of the big reasons ecw couldnt compete with them (other than money) you dont see the wwe raiding TNA's talent at all. why is that ? is it because of talent , no. its because of character.none of them have a persona/character that will bring in crowds and tv viewers on the main stage. heyman built these great characters for the dudleyz , stevie richards , taz , RAVEN! , shane douglas , even the blue meanine for god sakes (which they packaged into the job squad , but it was still entertaining) al snows head gimmick started in ecw. mick foleys whole crazy , hardcore persona got taken to another level in his stint with ecw. other than that fact the whole exposure thing makes it easier for them to make stars. tna is the second biggest company atm by defualt because there is no other competition. heyman had to work from the ground up. he fought tooth and nail for every tiny bit of exposure he and his company got.tna were giving a worldwide ppv contract straight of the bat. ecw never got the chance. and by the time they got NATIONAL(not international) exposure in 99 it was all over anyway ,

 

[Reddannihilation]

heyman made a lot of stars in ecw. and at the first chance the wcw/wwf signed them up for big money. thats one of the big reasons ecw couldnt compete with them (other than money) you dont see the wwe raiding TNA's talent at all.

Monty Brown, Low-Ki, Chris Harris, Mickie James, Consequences Creed, Evan Bourne, MVP, CM Punk. Nope none of those guys were in TNA prior to the WWE. Wait...they were?

Thanks for trying, do come again. Heyman didn't mak any stars, his biggest "star" had a 2 year run in the WWF before he became a commentator. Every "star" he made didn't get major recognition until after they left.

 

[MrHashasheen]

Monty Brown, Low-Ki, Chris Harris, Mickie James, Consequences Creed, Evan Bourne, MVP, CM Punk. Nope none of those guys were in TNA prior to the WWE. Wait...they were?

I'd classify CM Punk and Low Ki more of ROH talent. And all MVP did was a couple of shows here and there. That's like saying the American Dragon is a Dragon Gate USA talent for doing a couple of matches. Still, never knew CM Punk and Mickie spent time in Florida.

 

[MisterRob]

You keep using the word but I don't think you know what it means!

You claimed the guy didn’t watch TNA but was commenting on it, while you seem to know nothing of the Four Horsemen but are commenting on it. That makes you a hypocrite, douche.

So when AJ freaked out and challenged Kaz to a match, that was Flair's doing? When AJ lead the assault on EV2.0 that was Flair leading them, I suppose AJ stabbing Dinero in the eye with a pen to retain the title at Lockdown was Flair's idea too. AJ's the leader, Flair's the mentor.

How does Styles freaking out like a baby because Flair wasn’t paying him enough attention and was hanging around Kaz more evidence of Styles being any kind of leader?

Since when did Styles lead the assault on EV2.0? Do you even watch TNA impact? The lights went off, they went back on, and when they did everyone was already in the ring together. They all attacked EV2.0 at the same time. I didn’t see anyone leading the charge specifically there, nice try. And the fact that Flair came down afterwards to gloat, proved he was the master mind behind the attack. He was the one who told them to go do it and therefore LED them.

You’re clueless.

A lackey who spent months going against Flair? Interesting.

A lackey whose spent how many MORE months sucking Flair’s balls?

See above.

See above.

No, AJ's the leader, Flair's the mentor. He's preparing a new group to take over, his vision, but the key player is AJ. Also you may wish to bone up on the dicitionary before calling other people stupid.

No, the key player isn’t Styles. The key player is a young clone of Ric Flair. Instead of allowing Styles to be himself they’ve turned him into nothing but a carbon copy of the Nature Boy Ric Flair. This whole Fourtune angle revolves around Flair, and if you pulled your head out of your ass you’d see how these young talents aren’t being pushed and made as their OWN characters but pushed under the shadow of other people’s legacies and names so those legacies can still grasp at the spotlight.

To lead, though, you actually have to LEAD. Styles hasn’t led shit so far, he’s just taken orders from Ric Flair just like everyone else has taken orders from Flair, not Styles. The end of ReAction proves my point and proves you’re wrong, because Beer Money were talking to Flair and taking orders from HIM, not Styles. Nice try, though, come again.

No, Heyman was just making sure the IWC suck his dick just a little more, as it's obvious TNA doesn't need or want him.

Too bad TNA has admitted that they were in talks with Heyman and offered him a deal and he turned down and wasn’t interested in joining TNA. So your claim they don’t need or want him is not only childish but entirely wrong.

I find it funny how if Heyman had joined TNA all the fan boys would’ve been praising him and excited, but now that he wants nothing to do with TNA the fan boys are out to do nothing but try to bash him.

Cos he's done that before hasn't he? Oh, no. He hasn't, Heyman's ECW never meant a damn thing, Heyman's got no proven track record that he could somehow take everyone under 40 in TNA and make them stars. If he could do that, then ECW wouldn't have gone down like the Titanic.

Read this again to yourself. Then realize that TNA just did an entire PPV at the expense of their own talent to give EC-fucking-W the spotlight. They took a company that hasn’t been around for a decade, a company they don’t even own the rights to, and have been pushing their entire company around it for the last few months. And Heyman’s ECW never meant a damn thing? Contradiction! You’re an idiot! Even TNA thinks you're wrong!

Really? Well let's think about that, in Evolution Ric Flair and Batista beat Van Dam and Booker T for the tag titles. What titles does he have in TNA? Flair losing to Lethal? Flair uniting the future stars of TNA as a group designed to dominate TNA? No, I guess those aren't ways to get people over at all.

If you grasped at any more straws your name would be the Wickerman.

Where has Lethal been since beating Flair? I don’t know because I haven’t seen him. Great way to keep up his momentum and continue to “make” him. And if you think a bunch of heels being led by Flair are going to be “made” by dominating a bunch of old hacks from ECW who are far, far past their prime and never did have any great star power to begin with, then you’re out of your mind.

I give TNA credit for trying, but like everything they do they do it ass backwards.

Monty Brown, Low-Ki, Chris Harris, Mickie James, Consequences Creed, Evan Bourne, MVP, CM Punk. Nope none of those guys were in TNA prior to the WWE. Wait...they were?

Thanks for trying, do come again. Heyman didn't mak any stars, his biggest "star" had a 2 year run in the WWF before he became a commentator. Every "star" he made didn't get major recognition until after they left.

Clearly you’re too stupid to know what the term “raid” means. Clearly you’re grasping at straws so much that you have no sense of logic in doing so. I’m preeetty sure there’s a huge different in WWF/WCW raiding ECW back in the day and taking their top stars, those who were key parts of the product and WWE hiring guys who weren’t even working for TNA at the time. None of those people (aside maybe Monty Brown) you named had been working for TNA at the time they joined WWE, they had already left the company.

CM Punk was in TNA a very short time and had actually made his whole career and was still IN Ring of Honor before he ever touched foot in WWE. He was a Ring of Honor product, not a TNA product as they did absolutely nothing with him (like most of their best talent). Nice try.

Low-Ki is the same, Ring of Honor talent much more then TNA who wasted him for years. In fact Low-Ki handed in his resignation from TNA because he was fed up with the company. Nice try.

MVP? This one is proof you’re grasping at straws. The guy had a few matches as a talent enhancement and nothing more before going to WWE’s developmental territories.

Evan Bourne had been gone from TNA two YEARS before he signed with WWE, nice try. He was in Ring of Honor for 3 years before he signed in WWE; he was a Ring of Honor talent. So you see, they're actually taking Ring of Honor talent more then they're touching anything TNA made.

You’ve grasped at so many straws here your name is now the Wickerman.

 

[ATT]

I was gonna say exactly what you said about "the talent raid of TNA." When I looked at the list and seen at least four that were either in ROH when signing with WWE or were more well known in ROH.

C.M. Punk signing his WWE contract on the ROH Title is classic.

 

[Reddannihilation]

I'd classify CM Punk and Low Ki more of ROH talent. And all MVP did was a couple of shows here and there. That's like saying the American Dragon is a Dragon Gate USA talent for doing a couple of matches. Still, never knew CM Punk and Mickie spent time in Florida.

Low-Ki spent the same amount of time in both, he was in TNA after ROH. Not to mention his spot as one of the X-D pioneers.

You claimed the guy didn’t watch TNA but was commenting on it, while you seem to know nothing of the Four Horsemen but are commenting on it. That makes you a hypocrite, douche.

I know plenty about the Horsemen. No, you are just trying to spin it in your favour I said Flair was the manager much like Dillon was the manager. You decided to spin that as "Flair is exactly the same as Dillon" hypocritez111111. So again learn the meaning of the word dumbass.

How does Styles freaking out like a baby because Flair wasn’t paying him enough attention and was hanging around Kaz more evidence of Styles being any kind of leader?

Maybe you never saw his promos against Dinero? And how does "Kazarian, I could beat you" sound like a baby? Oh it doesn't.

Since when did Styles lead the assault on EV2.0? Do you even watch TNA impact? The lights went off, they went back on, and when they did everyone was already in the ring together. They all attacked EV2.0 at the same time. I didn’t see anyone leading the charge specifically there, nice try.

He was standing in the middle, the first to hit anyone. And he went after Dreamer the leader of the opposite faction.

And the fact that Flair came down afterwards to gloat, proved he was the master mind behind the attack. He was the one who told them to go do it and therefore LED them.

And Eric Bischoff used to come out and gloat when the nWo did shit, does that change Hogan and Nash from being the leaders of the nWo? No. What about when Paul Bearer used to control the Undertaker? It was still the Undertaker you were watching.

You’re clueless.

You're a spin doctor.

A lackey whose spent how many MORE months sucking Flair’s balls?

Ugh, it really is hopeless you just keep spouting this crap out. "Oh AJ wants to impress a legend of the business that means he's a lackey". Fuck off seriously. By your understanding everyone with a manager is a lackey.

No, the key player isn’t Styles. The key player is a young clone of Ric Flair. Instead of allowing Styles to be himself they’ve turned him into nothing but a carbon copy of the Nature Boy Ric Flair.

I swear people said the same thing about some guy being a clone of Buddy Rogers. Can't remember who that guy ended up being

And allowing Styles to be himself? That isn't going to work as a heel. Styles has "been himself" for most of his career, people like AJ when he's "himself". To get a good heel reaction you need to make him go against everything he was, that's why it works.

This whole Fourtune angle revolves around Flair, and if you pulled your head out of your ass you’d see how these young talents aren’t being pushed and made as their OWN characters but pushed under the shadow of other people’s legacies and names so those legacies can still grasp at the spotlight.

Really so Beer Money are acting differently? Kaz is different to how he used to be? No they aren't, you are a fuckwit.

To lead, though, you actually have to LEAD. Styles hasn’t led shit so far, he’s just taken orders from Ric Flair just like everyone else has taken orders from Flair, not Styles. The end of ReAction proves my point and proves you’re wrong, because Beer Money were talking to Flair and taking orders from HIM, not Styles.

He's their manager, a veteran manager of course he has some level of power in the group. If this actually has to be broken down for you to this level, Flair is the General but AJ is the Captain. Which means when it comes down to the action AJ leads. Just like every faction with a manager ever. HERPA DERPA DERP.

Too bad TNA has admitted that they were in talks with Heyman and offered him a deal and he turned down and wasn’t interested in joining TNA. So your claim they don’t need or want him is not only childish but entirely wrong.

Source?

I find it funny how if Heyman had joined TNA all the fan boys would’ve been praising him and excited, but now that he wants nothing to do with TNA the fan boys are out to do nothing but try to bash him.

Nope, ever since the rumours started flying I've always been against it so try again. The once consistent part of those rumours has been that Heyman wanted financial control and that's a death sentence, his statement here of cutting guys like Angle is plenty of reason to keep him away.

Read this again to yourself. Then realize that TNA just did an entire PPV at the expense of their own talent to give EC-fucking-W the spotlight. They took a company that hasn’t been around for a decade, a company they don’t even own the rights to, and have been pushing their entire company around it for the last few months. And Heyman’s ECW never meant a damn thing? Contradiction! You’re an idiot! Even TNA thinks you're wrong!

Sigh, do you know how many album Nirvana sold before Cobain died? Do you know how many sold after? Same deal with ECW. Thanks to the WWE, ECW has gained a much larger following post-humously. With a number of ECW alumni working in TNA, I see no issue in TNA using the name to get over more of their talent.

Where has Lethal been since beating Flair? I don’t know because I haven’t seen him. Great way to keep up his momentum and continue to “make” him. And if you think a bunch of heels being led by Flair are going to be “made” by dominating a bunch of old hacks from ECW who are far, far past their prime and never did have any great star power to begin with, then you’re out of your mind.

Two weeks ago. He had a match, had the supershow and now it's this week. You haven't seen Jay for one week. OMGZ Call the FBI his push has stalled!!!!!

I give TNA credit for trying, but like everything they do they do it ass backwards.

Yeah you beat this guy. THAT'S BACKWARDS!!!!!!!!!! His last match Doug Williams interfered so it seems the next feud is Lethal vs Williams for the X-title. Now tell me how that's "backwards" I'm dying to know.

Clearly you’re too stupid to know what the term “raid” means.

Well I must say you do seem like the type to play WoW so enlighten me.

I’m preeetty sure there’s a huge different in WWF/WCW raiding ECW back in the day and taking their top stars, those who were key parts of the product and WWE hiring guys who weren’t even working for TNA at the time.

The end result is the same, "MIDCARDERS" yes, TNA enhancement talent and cast aways are equal to ECW Maineventers.

None of those people (aside maybe Monty Brown) you named had been working for TNA at the time they joined WWE, they had already left the company.

CM Punk was in TNA a very short time and had actually made his whole career and was still IN Ring of Honor before he ever touched foot in WWE. He was a Ring of Honor product, not a TNA product as they did absolutely nothing with him (like most of their best talent). Nice try.

CM Punk worked in a lot of places not just ROH.

Low-Ki is the same, Ring of Honor talent much more then TNA who wasted him for years.

2002-2006 vs. 2002-2004 and 2006-2008. I think TNA wins.

In fact Low-Ki handed in his resignation from TNA because he was fed up with the company. Nice try.

yah he was so fed up that after he left he came back to do motion capture on their video game months after his contract ended. Man he must've hated them.

MVP? This one is proof you’re grasping at straws. The guy had a few matches as a talent enhancement and nothing more before going to WWE’s developmental territories.

Doesn't mean he wasn't there.

Evan Bourne had been gone from TNA two YEARS before he signed with WWE, nice try. He was in Ring of Honor for 3 years before he signed in WWE; he was a Ring of Honor talent. So you see, they're actually taking Ring of Honor talent more then they're touching anything TNA made.

He was in TNA, he left, he was picked up by the WWE. I stand by my point.

MisterRob gonna go cry now...I await to see how you spin this.

 

[twentytwo]

You want proof Heyman turned down TNA - look it up. It's common knowledge. Vince Russo has gone public saying he asked Heyman to join TNA and Heyman turned him down. Tommy Dreamer and Dixie Carter begged Heyman to join them for that abortion of a PPV and he refused. Look it up Joey.

Also, I've never seen a poster get owned as bad as Mister Rob owned Joey yet you come right back and make yourself look even worse. I really don't think your problem is that you are a Dixie Carter panty sniffer, it's that you just can't stand to be wrong. But, you are. Horribly. And you're wrong about Heyman not telling TNA to stick it where the sun doesn't shine. Take your head out of Dixie's toilet for 2 seconds and look it up Joe.

 

[ATT]

You want proof Heyman turned down TNA - look it up. It's common knowledge. Vince Russo has gone public saying he asked Heyman to join TNA and Heyman turned him down. Tommy Dreamer and Dixie Carter begged Heyman to join them for that abortion of a PPV and he refused. Look it up Joey.

Also, I've never seen a poster get owned as bad as Mister Rob owned Joey yet you come right back and make yourself look even worse. I really don't think your problem is that you are a Dixie Carter panty sniffer, it's that you just can't stand to be wrong. But, you are. Horribly. And you're wrong about Heyman not telling TNA to stick it where the sun doesn't shine. Take your head out of Dixie's toilet for 2 seconds and look it up Joe.

Even if Paul said it happened there is no way it did because the "dirtsheets" said it happened first and, they are always and, I mean always wrong. Haven't you heard? LOL

 

[Reddannihilation]

You want proof Heyman turned down TNA - look it up. It's common knowledge. Vince Russo has gone public saying he asked Heyman to join TNA and Heyman turned him down. Tommy Dreamer and Dixie Carter begged Heyman to join them for that abortion of a PPV and he refused. Look it up Joey.

Also, I've never seen a poster get owned as bad as Mister Rob owned Joey yet you come right back and make yourself look even worse. I really don't think your problem is that you are a Dixie Carter panty sniffer, it's that you just can't stand to be wrong. But, you are. Horribly. And you're wrong about Heyman not telling TNA to stick it where the sun doesn't shine. Take your head out of Dixie's toilet for 2 seconds and look it up Joe.

Hey look it's that guy who got banned for posting inane bullshit, I dunno who Joe is but I do know I like to cover my prime steaks in a nice SOURCE? You got a source on that info? Of course not because there's no official sources saying TNA wants Paul Heyman because there aren't any sources on that.

Even if Paul said it happened there is no way it did because the "dirtsheets" said it happened first and, they are always and, I mean always wrong. Haven't you heard? LOL

Yes it's much smarter to believe people with zero credibility than to wait for official statements. Seeing as that's how you work, the world will explode in 4 seconds, you have to believe that.