Heels are Edgier- Probably why I like them better ...

[slayerofpanda]

I have been a fan of Edge, Punk, Y2J, etc etc. I find that I'm drawn to the heels of the business, and hate the baby faces like Cena. Even in the past week I've started getting into Batista even though he was my number one most hated wrestler when he was face.

Now I've tried for a long time to understand why I do this. Back in the attitude era I loved SCSA and Mick Foley when they were faces so this is only the current generation that makes me flip flop.

I've come up with a theory rather than just saying "well you do it cuz your a smark". My theory is that I like the heels because they provide more of an edge reminiscent of late 90's wrestling. As a baby face in today's wrestling characters are dull and boring imo, but the heels can still flourish.

I go back to the Batista example in recent weeks, before when he was face he talked rather boring, never really went insane and generally was just there as a big guy. since his heel turn however he is gone on edge and has become interesting because it seems like he is a more developed character. This isn't just him, take a look at CM Punk as a face the guy had almost no character development, then he goes heel and boom.

Take a look at the opposite, MVP. As a heel this guy had great heat at times and got into promos w/ matt hardy. he turns face and bam he has no development anymore and turns bland and boring.

anyway thanks for reading and I would like feedback as to if this makes sense

 

[PEP3]

First of all, classic SCSA was not what one might consider a "True Face." He didn't pander to the crowds like most baby faces do. In fact, it was Stone Cold's care-free, kiss-my-ass attitude -- and that included everyone from the boss, Mr. McMahon, to the fans -- that made him so over. In essence, what I'm saying is that Stone Cold exhibited some of the classic traits of a heel even as a face. It's no wonder you liked him!

 

[BigAdz]

I'm in the same boat.

Babyfaces only work when they display an attitude that is in direct conflict with whichever heel they're feuding with. Considering most faces these days just pander to crowds and stand there looking pretty without any real 'tude, they're boring by contrast to the edgier predecessors. Even DX are a de-fanged version of themselves.

Hence why I'm taking an interest in Kofi finally. He's showing some attitude and staring down with Randy Orton, something not even Cena did as well.

 

[Mavericks fan]

Totally agree with you man.Heels are usually the ones who cheat and have great mic skill,which makes them more entranteining.You said the same thing i would about Batista and MVP.I think this is the wrong section though.

 

[Southwind]

Heels usually carry feuds as well, a fact overlooked by most. Heel also make far better world champions and more times than not they are better mic workers than the faces as well.

Heels do 75% of the work in feuds and if not that more, and they set up the faces to get over by taking some underhanded means to get the fans behind them.

I just think that heels are much better wrestlers and have more overall talent than faces.

 

[Mustang Sally]

First of all, classic SCSA was not what one might consider a "True Face." He didn't pander to the crowds like most baby faces do. In fact, it was Stone Cold's care-free, kiss-my-ass attitude -- and that included everyone from the boss, Mr. McMahon, to the fans -- that made him so over. In essence, what I'm saying is that Stone Cold exhibited some of the classic traits of a heel even as a face.

Yes, that's the essence of it. When I think of Austin, it reminds me of the way The Fonz was characterized on "Happy Days." He was the most feared guy in town, he bullied regular people, getting them to do homework for him by issuing threats. Of course, in the end, this hood wound up having a heart of gold and seemed to spend all his spare time doing favors for people.

Well, bullshit on that! I don't think the leather jackets of the '50's were humanitarians intent on helping people. They were usually insecure, unhappy people who covered their own fears by threatening and intimidating others.Yet, by embracing this anti-hero persona, TV made The Fonz into an immortal character.

This, too, was Steve Austin. He beat the hell out of faces and heels who got in his way, yet rescued his boss' daughter when she was captured by an evil cult. When he was required to find a tag-team partner for a match, he had no one specific to call on and he wound up issuing an open plea for someone to join him......and wound up with Billy Gunn, for pete's sake.

Austin was a heel we liked because he walked alone through the WWE, stepping on whomever got in his path. He tortured the Chairman of the Board. He used the stunner on every member of the ruling McMahon family. If President Clinton had made an appearance on RAW (and I was always waiting for it), Austin would have stomped him, too.

As long as it's make-believe, we love the guy (or girl) who goes against the grain and does what we least expect.....and that's why we like heels.

 

[Coco]

Well I'm going to have to disagree with everyone in this thread. I despise heels. Well, not really. I despise WWE heels.

Look at guys like Randy Orton. The slow wrestling, the limited offense... He bores me to tears and yet his act is sold as psychology. I could care less, wrestling is supposed to entertain me not make me change the channel. Look at guys like Edge. The weak title wins, the inability to get clean victories... I lose interest in most face vs. heel matches because the heels aren't credible threats. I don't have to watch 95% of WWE matches because I know the face will come away looking like the winner even if he loses.

Oh sure, these tactics and wrestling styles are supposed to make sure I have no desire to cheer these guys. But that's just lazy booking and lazy heel work. If a heel were really good at his job, he'd be able to wrestle at the same energetic pace that the average good guy is allowed to and still use his mannerisms, his promos, and the connection with the audience those things breed to make people hate him.

Every heel in the WWE today except for the Big Show is pretty much awful at their job. Show can at least get clean wins and maintain his heat. Jericho, Punk, Edge, Orton, and the rest can all be done away with IMO. They don't hold a candle to Show.

I have high hopes for Batista as a heel. He is normally pushed so strong that I can see some major clean wins during his heel run.

 

[Smackdown!]

Well when I first gt into wrestling I was all into the heels. Then as I got more into wrestling and watchin the bad guys The more I got into them week after week. Now The only faces I like in the company is just the undertaker the other faces lik cena christan etc. seem to bore me week after week. Personally I'm so in love with the heels like cm punk,chris jericho, Dolph zigglr,Randy Orton,Legacy,If the Miz and Jack Swagger get big push really soon who knows we just may be headed into another Attitude era.

 

[Mustang Sally]

Look at guys like Randy Orton. The slow wrestling, the limited offense... He bores me to tears and yet his act is sold as psychology.

It's the psychology that makes today's heels interesting. In the olden days, before WWE started changing the sport from an exchange of wrestling moves to a clash of personalities, a face who became a heel started wrestling in an entirely different fashion; his technical moves were replaced by eye-gouging, choke holds, etc. A heel who turned face had the same transformation, in reverse.

To my mind, the first guy who changed this was Larry Zbyszko when he started his feud with Bruno Sammartino. Larry became a hated heel, yet he wrestled in exactly the same manner as before.....with technical moves. The reason he became despised had to do with psychology. I remember a Battle Royal in which he participated; while everyone was mixing it up in the ring, Larry spent the match on the ring apron, not physically involved in the conflict. He watched everyone getting eliminated and when it was down to one tired competitor, Larry jumped in the ring and threw him over the top rope, winning the match. The fans were outraged at the unfairness of all this, yet Larry continued his "heeldom" while still wrestling in scientific fashion.

Since then, wrestlers seemed to change attitudes without altering their style of wrestling. Randy Savage, for instance. He was a raving madman as a heel and was as hated as anyone I can ever recall. When he turned face, he wrestled exactly the same way; still breaking rules, still taking shortcuts to victory. Yet, he became one of the best loved wrestlers anywhere.

We need the heels. If it wasn't for them, the good guys wouldn't seem so damn good.

Psychology.

 

[Dre Guevara]

most of the time that I've been watching wrestling, I've been a mark 4 the faces, (prime example, I've been a Hulkamaniac from 85-92, 02-present). I've never really began 2 like the heels until maybe '94, Shawn Michaels & Diesel made it cool 2 like heels, until Stone Cold came along & changed the game. over time, I've grown 2 appreciate cats like Chris Jericho & Edge, even Undertaker when he was in his "American Badass/Big Evil" phase, while they make U want 2 see them get the crap beat outta them, in my case, they make me want 2 see them win @ any cost. during his fued with John Cena, I TRULY began 2 admire Chris Jericho & the way he worked the crowd, calling them sycophants & sheep 4 being told who 2 like, 2 be honest, I began 2 apply what he said about the wrestling fans 2 these manufactured sheep who claim that rappers like Gucci Mane & Lil' Wayne R way better than MCs like Raekwon or Immortal Technique. & truthfully, I get alot of heat from people on the Hip Hop sites 4 voicing my opinions the same way the heels do in the ring, & I love it.

I think it's gonna be cool 2 see Batista as a heel again.

 

[BigAdz]

Well I'm going to have to disagree with everyone in this thread. I despise heels. Well, not really. I despise WWE heels.

Look at guys like Randy Orton. The slow wrestling, the limited offense... He bores me to tears and yet his act is sold as psychology. I could care less, wrestling is supposed to entertain me not make me change the channel.

Why would you have a guy like Orton wrestle the exact same way as Cena, who's a ball of energy in the ring? Once Cena gets a full head of steam, he's unstoppable. You counter that by slowing the pace down and having strong base attacks that use momentum as a weapon. Which Orton is masterful at.

Look at guys like Edge. The weak title wins, the inability to get clean victories... I lose interest in most face vs. heel matches because the heels aren't credible threats. I don't have to watch 95% of WWE matches because I know the face will come away looking like the winner even if he loses.

Edge's gimmick of "Ultimate Opportunist" goes out the window if he plays along the same game as his face opponents. He's a heel ffs lol! Heels aren't meant to get clean victories, just victories.

Oh sure, these tactics and wrestling styles are supposed to make sure I have no desire to cheer these guys. But that's just lazy booking and lazy heel work. If a heel were really good at his job, he'd be able to wrestle at the same energetic pace that the average good guy is allowed to and still use his mannerisms, his promos, and the connection with the audience those things breed to make people hate him.

A heel's role is to get maximum gain with the least amount of effort. Hence why people hate them and they get this little thing called "heat". Wrestling at the same energetic pace goes against the nature of a heel.

Every heel in the WWE today except for the Big Show is pretty much awful at their job. Show can at least get clean wins and maintain his heat. Jericho, Punk, Edge, Orton, and the rest can all be done away with IMO. They don't hold a candle to Show.

I'll agree that Show's a good heel, much better than he is a face. He's also good at doing the other job heels are there to do: do a job to a face and make them look good. Though I reckon Edge is far better at this than anyone else on the roster. The segment on RAW when CM Punk first cashed in his MITB contract was a master stroke by Edge; how many guys can make not one, but TWO faces look good without raising a finger?

I have high hopes for Batista as a heel. He is normally pushed so strong that I can see some major clean wins during his heel run.

I'll be expecting to see Batista lose his shit completely in the ring and pummel his opponents to bloody pulps as a heel. I also expect a few MMA style victories for him with the ref stepping in to end the match cos the other guy can't defend himself consciously.
That being said, Batista's a student of Ric Flair; expect some dirty tactics and DQs as well.

 

[benm1989]

I agree heels are more entertaining shawn michaels back in the 90's was pure class look at morrison as a heel alot funnier and more entertianing still puts on great matches but id rather a mix of heel traits in his character like slagging off his opponents alot more like mr ziggles wtf just trying to pkay to the crowd

 

[BladeRunner]

Right now, the heels in WWE are the most entertaining, I agree. But it doesn't have to be like that.

For instance, you don't have to be a face thats perfectly nice. You can be a badass that happens to be honorable as well. John Cena's honorable, but he wishes he were a badass. Undertaker is a current example of being a badass thats honorable.

See thats what its about. It's about being larger than life, in your face about stuff. Whether it's from heels or faces.

I guess what I'm saying is, is that if you have a good persona, it doesn't matter if you're heel or face. A good personality will entertain people. But you've gotta have that personality for you to get over as a heel or face. If you have no personality people won't pay attention to you either way.

When it comes to actual heel/face type stuff, what makes you heel is that you do underhanded or cruel tactics against your enemies. A cowardly stab-in-the-back style person. And for a face, they can still be kickass, but they may not do dirty underhanded stuff to their opponent.

I feel like WWE thinks a face nowadays has to be a "take your vitamins and do your homework kids" type. Pandering to kids does not make you a face.

What makes a face a face is that they are fair and honorable towards people. As long as they're those things, they can be as zany, violent or as crazy as any interesting heel type. And thats what people want, entertaining over the top characters.

 

[Coco]

Why would you have a guy like Orton wrestle the exact same way as Cena, who's a ball of energy in the ring? Once Cena gets a full head of steam, he's unstoppable. You counter that by slowing the pace down and having strong base attacks that use momentum as a weapon. Which Orton is masterful at.

But it's boring. I turn off my TV when he does this. If Orton was any good, his words and mannerisms would do the heel work for him and he'd go toe to toe with John Cena at a decent pace like a fucking man. When he wins, people will hate that he can be such a prick and so good.

A real heel can do awesome moves, beat faces clean, and still get booed.

If Orton is half the worker people say he is, he'll find a way to do a springboard 450 splash and get booed for it.

Edge's gimmick of "Ultimate Opportunist" goes out the window if he plays along the same game as his face opponents. He's a heel ffs lol! Heels aren't meant to get clean victories, just victories.

But by cheating all the time, heels never get any real victories because the faces always look better. There's no real conflict becasue you know the heel will look like shit even if he wins. Why bother watching a product that's booked so obviously?

A heel's role is to get maximum gain with the least amount of effort. Hence why people hate them and they get this little thing called "heat". Wrestling at the same energetic pace goes against the nature of a heel.

A good heel could wrestle at the same pace they wrestle at as a face and get heat through just their words and mannerisms. Cheating and altering one's offense are a signs of a poor worker who can't get heat any other way.

In this regard, Big Show is the best heel worker in the WWE.

Though I reckon Edge is far better at this than anyone else on the roster. The segment on RAW when CM Punk first cashed in his MITB contract was a master stroke by Edge; how many guys can make not one, but TWO faces look good without raising a finger?

Batista had already gotten over on Edge the night before though, so big fuckin' deal. In addition, Punk was a joke for months after this so I guess Edge isn't that great at his job after all.

If Edge was a credible threat, this may be a different story.

That being said, Batista's a student of Ric Flair; expect some dirty tactics and DQs as well.

Batista wasn't actually trained to wrestle by Ric Flair.

Just in case you didn't know.

Owned? I think so.

 

[jayteeERA]

I like some heels in the wwe. Especially the ones who can still get heat with these wrestling crowd today. My favorite's are Edge, CM Punk, Cody and Ted, even Matt Hardy when he was a heel. Randy Orton gets cheered as a heel some times and i can't stand it. Its ok if you like him, but booing him will make him happier.

Heels to me, can get boring just like faces can. What stands out on heels, they have an edge to draw attention. That's why i like them. If all the wrestlers in wwe was faces. It would be BORING. and that's why i appricate a heel.

Its just some of today's wrestlers try to get heat, but some the fans cheered then booing them. Even if disrespecting the hometown fans still cheers. I feel the same way about faces. How ppl can hate Cena. Only thing I see is he's too nice, and needs to stop trying to be like the rock. But other then that great wrestler.

 

[BigAdz]

But it's boring. I turn off my TV when he does this. If Orton was any good, his words and mannerisms would do the heel work for him and he'd go toe to toe with John Cena at a decent pace like a fucking man. When he wins, people will hate that he can be such a prick and so good.

You see BR? He kept up with Cena all the way, just in his own fashion. I wouldn't call that boring. But hey, you do, turn it off.

A real heel can do awesome moves, beat faces clean, and still get booed.

You sayin the RKO isn't an awesome move?

If Orton is half the worker people say he is, he'll find a way to do a springboard 450 splash and get booed for it.

He probably could, who's to say? But he doesn't need to. That's the point. Ric Flair never did a 450 and he's one of the best heels in history.

But by cheating all the time, heels never get any real victories because the faces always look better. There's no real conflict becasue you know the heel will look like shit even if he wins. Why bother watching a product that's booked so obviously?

You just highlighted the entire point of what being a heel entails. Again, if it's too obvious, turn it off.

A good heel could wrestle at the same pace they wrestle at as a face and get heat through just their words and mannerisms. Cheating and altering one's offense are a signs of a poor worker who can't get heat any other way.

It's a sign of someone who knows when to fight and when to use other means to achieve the desired end. In other words A HEEL! Am I getting through you here? The fact that it frustrates you so much is a sign of them doing their job perfectly[/quote]

In this regard, Big Show is the best heel worker in the WWE.

Best, no. Up there with the best, for sure. We already agreed on this.

Batista had already gotten over on Edge the night before though, so big fuckin' deal. In addition, Punk was a joke for months after this so I guess Edge isn't that great at his job after all.

Exactly, Batista was over already. Edge didn't need to do anything, so he didn't. A good worker is one that knows when to fight and when not to.
Not Edge's fault Punk was handed the ball and dropped it.

If Edge was a credible threat, this may be a different story.

He's taken the title from Cena, HHH, Jeff Hardy, Batista and Undertaker. Not to mention the excellent hardcore match at WM24 (?) with Mick Foley. I'd say he's a pretty credible threat having felled the best faces in the biz today.

Batista wasn't actually trained to wrestle by Ric Flair.

Just in case you didn't know.

Orton's tutelage under Flair is brought up a lot now that he's a heel.
It's called kayfabe. Look it up, gets used a lot.

Owned? I think so.

You think? Wow, could've fooled me.

 

[Coco]

You see BR? He kept up with Cena all the way, just in his own fashion. I wouldn't call that boring. But hey, you do, turn it off.

I did.

This "If you don't like it, turn it off" mentality shouldn't be allowed to fly here. My opinion, my viewership, and my money is worth just as much as yours. If this typical heel bullshit floats your boat, that's nice. But it's time WWE learned a new trick and heels learned how to work without the typical heel bullshit. Stuff like this is why WWE is in the dumps right now.

You sayin the RKO isn't an awesome move?

Yes.

He probably could, who's to say? But he doesn't need to. That's the point. Ric Flair never did a 450 and he's one of the best heels in history.

No he's not. King of the bullshit finish. Town after town. Over and over again. He's king of having to fall back on shit like that to maintain his heat. If he was half the stick man he's talked up as, his words would have carried his heat. They didn't.

Flair is an awful heel.

It's a sign of someone who knows when to fight and when to use other means to achieve the desired end. In other words A HEEL!

A heel is a bad guy, not necessarly an opprotunist and a cheater. If a guy can be a true badass and a competitor and still get huge heel heat, he's a better bad guy than the one's who need to rely on those cheap tactics to carry their heat. Get it yet?

Best, no. Up there with the best, for sure. We already agreed on this.

He's the best. Nobody works as clean as him and maintains their heat like Show. That right hand is awesome and gets great heat.

He's taken the title from Cena, HHH, Jeff Hardy, Batista and Undertaker.

He cheated every time. His shit's weak.

Big Show's beaten most of those men clean and still maintains his heat.

You see why Show is better than Edge yet?

Not to mention the excellent hardcore match at WM24 (?) with Mick Foley.

WM22.

Owned. Again.

 

[Toroc102]

I think I like heels/tweners better than straight babyfaces because they actually act like I'd act. If a heel can cheat every match and get away with it then I get to thinking why the hell isn't the face doing the same thing, the heel obviusly changed the rules so why would you play by the old ones. The don't take shit from anyone mentality has been attributed to heels in the wrestling business but really thats just a deep part of mans psychology. I think this is why John Cena is booed by the male audience, because he kind of sounds preachy, similar to CM Punk in a way.

When he had that promo with Legacy the other week, he essentially put over Randy Orton even though Orton's done every despicable thing in the book to him, like who acts like that? If someone slapped my dad we'd probably be mortal enemies for life y'know, I'd never respect him again(On another note when he told them that they had a lot to learn I just rolled my eyes, thats a classic heel line, I wonder if he came up with that himself or if it was fed to him).

You don't have to respect everyone you have a fight with just because it was a good fight, hell not even Hogan was that clean cut, he might not have cursed but he made you know that he HATED the other guy and was going to stomp him. Faces need to have a badass element to their character, John Cena seems more like the suck up at school. Kofi Kingston was a great example of how a PG era face could be done. He didn't curse either, but when Randy threw him off the stage he got mad, and he got revenge. Its an adrenaline rush and males love to see that type of stuff its, in our dna.

Thinking about it this is probably more of a problem with Cena than anyone else, the hustle, loyalty, respect thing is way to big a part of his gimmick it comes off so corny that he has to put over his opponent somewhat in all of his promos. As faces, HHH, HBK, UT, umm, well I can't think of any other main-event faces at the moment but they all won't take shit from the guys that give it to them.

 

[BigAdz]

I did.

This "If you don't like it, turn it off" mentality shouldn't be allowed to fly here. My opinion, my viewership, and my money is worth just as much as yours. If this typical heel bullshit floats your boat, that's nice. But it's time WWE learned a new trick and heels learned how to work without the typical heel bullshit. Stuff like this is why WWE is in the dumps right now.

The fact that they keep doing the typical heel shit means it's working. Good enough for WWE.

Yes.

Whatever. I'll take it over a punch in the face any day.

No he's not. King of the bullshit finish. Town after town. Over and over again. He's king of having to fall back on shit like that to maintain his heat. If he was half the stick man he's talked up as, his words would have carried his heat. They didn't.

Flair is an awful heel.

He "falls back" on his shtick cos it works. You're hating it, Vince is loving it.

Mate, you got no clue on the work on heels if you think Flair was awful.

A heel is a bad guy, not necessarly an opprotunist and a cheater. If a guy can be a true badass and a competitor and still get huge heel heat, he's a better bad guy than the one's who need to rely on those cheap tactics to carry their heat. Get it yet?

I get what you're saying, just think you're right off the mark. A heel doing less and NOT appealing to what the fans want him to do (ie. fight fair and get clean wins) is a much better example of a heel. Again, obviously, cos you're hating it.

He's the best. Nobody works as clean as him and maintains their heat like Show. That right hand is awesome and gets great heat.

Again, don't disagree, Show's a good heel. There's a reason why he hasn't been a major champion in so long though; he's not the best heel.

He cheated every time. His shit's weak.

Big Show's beaten most of those men clean and still maintains his heat.

You see why Show is better than Edge yet?

Show's been around years and worked hard but Edge has accumulated more title wins, merch sales and higher profile matches in half the time.

Nope, not seeing it.

WM22.

Owned. Again.

Pretty sure the question mark was a good indication I wasn't sure on that. But hey, have your little victory, doesn't change the fact you got no idea.

 

[Suneeboy]

To the OP, I relate to you. My reason for being drawn to the heel is because without the heel, there would be no face. The villian sets the stage and creates the struggle between good and evil. Without the heel, the face would wander aimlessly with no goal and nothing to over come. The Good vs. Evil dynamic has intrigued us forever, and I think we are drawn to the heels from an entertainment standpoint more because they make us love the faces.

There is nothing better than seeing a face finally conquer all adversity and defeating the heel. That is entertainment.

The WWE's problem is that they have no credible heels, so like Coco has said throughout the thread, a face beating a heel means absolutely nothing. The face has no mountain to climb anymore. I don't think heels getting clean wins is what will make them entertaining for you Coco, I think it would be heels actually being threats to the faces that would make you like them more. The heels are not threats and they strike no fear in anyone's hearts. They are easy to overcome, and they always lose. I miss HHH as a heel. He in my eyes is the best heel ever. A win over him actually meant something for the face. A win over Orton? Over Jericho? Over Big Show? Over Kane? Over CM Punk? Been there done that, saw it coming a mile away.

 

[maar130]

Well, for me is also because a heel has also way more leverage to speak and act.

Like someone said before, usually the heels are the ones that carry the feuds, for example, the Feud between Edge and Cena, the first one, that one was good because it didn't matter what Cena did, Edge was always the tore on his side. He was not stronger but was smarter, even with the cheap wins it pushed Cena to the limit. Even when they were in Canada, Edge was beloved and Cena hated, then after Edge speaks Cena was loved and Edge despised by the crowd.

The Rock was great heel, and that same style turned him into a fan favorite.

Austin was different because even a heel, he represented something else, a common man (really pissed off) fighting and trying to make a living. In real life we are not perfect good guys and most people recent their bosses, Austin had the opportunity none regular guy had, beat the living crap out of his boss. He was the perfect anti-hero.

For Batista's character it was only natural to become a heel, I mean, he could be a guy guy with no real fire but now, is like a hurt animal, he will aim at everythign and everyone, he is just to dominant to be clasified only as the good guy wo never gets pissed off.

 

[GameOver]

I'm in the same boat.

Babyfaces only work when they display an attitude that is in direct conflict with whichever heel they're feuding with. Considering most faces these days just pander to crowds and stand there looking pretty without any real 'tude, they're boring by contrast to the edgier predecessors. Even DX are a de-fanged version of themselves.

Hence why I'm taking an interest in Kofi finally. He's showing some attitude and staring down with Randy Orton, something not even Cena did as well.

Yup

Heels have been alot more cool for along time. Solidly since HBK started acting like a cocky ass.

Guys that despite being "anti-heroes" they can actually wrestle and kick ass
Edge and Orton, despite being utterly annoying on the mic you know they can hang with anyone and aren't just total cheaters like the heels of old, thats a big part of the change. and nowadays heels can win more often then not, which wasn't the case in the 80's back then it was the reverse

Faces are still prone to stupidity, falling for the obvious swerves, wheras your current heels not so much.

How often do we see faces doing swerves for the greater good? ie tricking the heel. rarely

yet heels do it all the time

It's far easier to get a reaction as a heel than a face.
Austin was different aswell cause he was a solo artist who's motto was Don't Trust Anybody and he portrayed that right ot the end. You knew anyone he confronted was likely to get a stunner.

Leave you with this final word from a famous man

"Win if you can, Lose if you must, But always cheat" - Jessie Ventura

 

[Tastycles]

I don't think the heels are particularly edgy, certainly not Orton and Jericho who are both pretty old school. I'm with Coco on this one, heels can do flashy moves and still get booed if they are good enough, look at Jericho, Eddie Guerrero or half the WCW luchadors for proof of that. You don't have to be as "psycologically intense" to be a good heel. Randy Orton is the embodiment of the 1980s, not the 1990s, and personally I find him dull as fuck.

 

[Sean Valjean]

I've thought this for a long time now. It seems these days that heels get to do whatever they want. They get to say more on the mic, their character's are developed better, and they're just generally more entertaining; heels are just more fun. Faces in the WWE are for the most part, bland, goody-goody's with little to no character or personality, hardly get mic time, and seem to only get over on either ring skill (if they have it) or because of the heel they work with. I miss the days of the "cool face".

The "cool face" can be honorable and sometimes respectful, but will still be a badass, talk shit/beat up heels AND other faces, have some cockiness, and doesn't go out of their way to pander to fans to say "I'M A FACE, CHEER ME!" I like a lot of faces in WWE, for a lot of them, that's almost entirely due to their ring work and nothing more.

It seems these days, you're not allowed to be a face and be cocky; what's wrong with knowing you're good? One reason I love TNA is because they have cool faces. Matt Morgan, MCMG, Kurt Angle, etc; faces that are cocky, arrogant, will talk shit just as good as the heels and aren't afraid to use heel tactics, but still don't go quite as far as a heel would, and still respect opponents (to a degree). The only cool faces WWE has are DX, Taker, Christian and Morrison (if they don't ruin him like MVP) and maybe Kofi if they keep it up. WWE needs to stop being so strict on faces, and let them have some attitude.

 

[Southwind]

Guys don't try talking logic into Coco, he doesn't really understand wrestling to well and he will red rep you if you disagree with him.

I'm not going to defend Randy Orton, everybody that knows what they are talking about knows why he can't be flamboyant like John Cena common knowledge really.

Randy Orton is a cold calulated Viper he stalks his prey (stomps elevated DDT and knee drop etc). Before delivering the final blow (the Punt or the RKO) Orton used to do the best dropkick in the WWE as well as an elevated neckbreaker and a top rope cross body among others.

Why doesn't he do that anymore ? Because it doesn't fit his character it makes no sense he is supposed to be slow !!! Some people who claim to know wrestling just don't

I like heels better the psychology perfected by the best like Orton and Jericho is awesome and a sight to see.

If anything babyfaces are what's not any good right now, Cena can only get cheap pops by acknowledging the crowd Orton carried the feud between them just like Edge Jericho etc. Did before him.

Not Cena's or any other babyfaces fault they are usually worse talent than heels, heels talk more heels set up the feud more heels do more period.