Heel vs Heel feuds

[FiveTymeWCWChamp]

I was just wondering what you guys think of heel vs heel feuds? I mean, heels are supposed to be bad guys with no redeeming qualities. So why do heels that are not a regular tag-team act as good friends. I mean, look at Miz vs Swagger. Two top young heels that are semi feuding over the US Title. We see face vs face all the time, but never heel vs heel. We have seen Taker vs Batista when both were faces. Cena vs HBK when both were faces. HHH vs Hardy, etc, etc.

So what I guess what I am asking is do you guys think of more heel vs heel feuds and what are some that you would like to see?

 

[IrishCanadian25]

I have no problem with Heel vs Heel feuds, but they have to be done right, and they have to have some meaning. Let me elaborate.

In 1992, the SummerSlam pay per view was best known for Hart vs Bulldog and Savage vs Warrior 2. What many people forget was the entertaining and interesting feud between Shawn Michaels and Rick Martel.

On a Saturday afternoon show, Rick Martel was challenging Bret Hart for the coveted Intercontinental Title. Shawn Michaels was also feuding with Bret (this was around the time the ladder match was first run for the IC title), and casually and arrogantly sauntered to the ring and started punching Bret in the head. The issue? Bret was locked in Martel's finisher, the Boston Crab! The ref DQ'd Martel for Shawn's interference, but thought he'd won the title. When Martel looked over and say Shawn beating on Bret, he realized he'd lost the match and the shot he had at the title. He was furious.

A week later, Shawn was wrestling while valet Sherri was ringside. Martel then sauntered down, and rather than interfere with Shawn's match, he flirted with Sherri. He winked at her, she winked at him. Shawn got distracted by this and nearly lost to a jobber. Martel left, satsfied with himself.

A match was signed by Tunney that the two would face off at SummerSlam, but Sherri made them both agree to a stipulation - no punches in the face, no kicks to the face, etc. She didn't want either man's "wonderful features" messed up. So began a funny heel vs heel feud with the face punch teased like 3 times. The two put on a mat wrestling clinic, with near falls, and near punches. Shawn finally had enough, and socked Martel. Martel hit back. The slugfest began, and Sherri fanted. They both tried to take her to the back, and attacked each other in the process. The match ended in a non-contest.

There was a reason both men didn't like each other. They both wanted to be the #1 contender to what would later that night become Bulldog's IC Title (Shawn won it a couple months later at Saturday Night's Main Event) and both men wanted to be the "sexy guy" of the WWF and earn the affection of Sherri. The no punch to the face stipulation, though silly, was well executed and extremely entertaining. Sherri sold it all like a pro. God I miss her.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Heel vs heel feuds are fine. Like IC said, they have to be done right though.

I think the reason that we don't see a lot of heel vs heel feuds is because both wrestlers are heels. What I mean by that is, in a match, if you have two top heels facing each other, the fans are going to have to choose which one to cheer for. Wait a second, cheer for a heel? According to kayfabe rules, this is a big no no. You could say, the fans don't have to cheer, but then what would be the point of having a match without any fan reaction? What I'm saying is, a lot of times, when heels start to feud against other heels, this usually results in a face change for one of them. Orton vs HHH the first time is a prime example of this. Batista vs HHH is also a really good example. If creative wants to keep the wrestlers heels, then you just can't let the heels feud with another heel.

Unless of course, it is done right.

 

[Trill Co$by]

In my opinion, if you're going to do a heel vs. heel feud, they should be the veteran heel vs. the new heel.

Like Evolution HHH vs. Legacy Randy Orton, or even Post-Rockers HBK Heel vs. Current Miz Heel.

Basically, it's the veteran showing the rookie just how it's done. Showing them that no matter the brain power, experience is always better. And also, it helps keep the crowd divided. Because we all know that fans love to see the less experienced ones gain the upper hand in the end, but all a while, have the veteran teach that young blood a thing or two.

 

[D-Man]

I have no problem with Heel vs Heel feuds, but they have to be done right, and they have to have some meaning. Let me elaborate.

In 1992, the SummerSlam pay per view was best known for Hart vs Bulldog and Savage vs Warrior 2. What many people forget was the entertaining and interesting feud between Shawn Michaels and Rick Martel.

On a Saturday afternoon show, Rick Martel was challenging Bret Hart for the coveted Intercontinental Title. Shawn Michaels was also feuding with Bret (this was around the time the ladder match was first run for the IC title), and casually and arrogantly sauntered to the ring and started punching Bret in the head. The issue? Bret was locked in Martel's finisher, the Boston Crab! The ref DQ'd Martel for Shawn's interference, but thought he'd won the title. When Martel looked over and say Shawn beating on Bret, he realized he'd lost the match and the shot he had at the title. He was furious.

A week later, Shawn was wrestling while valet Sherri was ringside. Martel then sauntered down, and rather than interfere with Shawn's match, he flirted with Sherri. He winked at her, she winked at him. Shawn got distracted by this and nearly lost to a jobber. Martel left, satsfied with himself.

A match was signed by Tunney that the two would face off at SummerSlam, but Sherri made them both agree to a stipulation - no punches in the face, no kicks to the face, etc. She didn't want either man's "wonderful features" messed up. So began a funny heel vs heel feud with the face punch teased like 3 times. The two put on a mat wrestling clinic, with near falls, and near punches. Shawn finally had enough, and socked Martel. Martel hit back. The slugfest began, and Sherri fanted. They both tried to take her to the back, and attacked each other in the process. The match ended in a non-contest.

There was a reason both men didn't like each other. They both wanted to be the #1 contender to what would later that night become Bulldog's IC Title (Shawn won it a couple months later at Saturday Night's Main Event) and both men wanted to be the "sexy guy" of the WWF and earn the affection of Sherri. The no punch to the face stipulation, though silly, was well executed and extremely entertaining. Sherri sold it all like a pro. God I miss her.

Welcome to one of my favorite feuds in professional wrestling history. IC, I applaud you for pointing this out.

It was really extraordinary to have a heel vs heel feud back in 1992. That time period was still sucking the teet of the Golden Era of wrestling, where bad guys vs good guys was the norm and the hero always wound up coming out on top.

I remember how confused I was when the feud first began. I was watching the wrestling show when HBK began slugging Bret Hart as he was locked in the Boston Crab. I remember understanding Michaels's motivation but also knowing that it was going to piss off Martel once he found out that he was disqualified. Just the mere fact that two "bad guys" were going to feud with each other was so different to me. That's wy it remains one of my favorite feuds EVER.

I agree with IC25 when I say that if built up correctly, a heel feud can be very effective. However, if done incorrectly, it can be a train wreck and a waste of television time.

 

[SavageTaker]

Generally, I’m not a huge fan of heel vs. heel feuds because a lot of times they aren’t done correctly. But when they are done right they can end up being some pretty good feuds. Just look at some of the feuds that have already been mention. Those were done right so as a result they were good feuds that entertained people even thought there weren't any babyfaces to cheer for. But that leads me to a problem that I see with heel vs. heel which is that the crowds like to cheer people on and a lot of times so by having two heels go at it, it confuses the crowds because there is really no babyface for them to cheer for. I’m not sure if that makes sense to anyone else but me, but like I said, if they are done right then they can be amazing feuds. If they are done incorrectly then they could cause a lot more bad than good…which isn’t a good thing.

 

[FiveTymeWCWChamp]

Another thing is that I understand why faces like each other. But why do heels work together like best friends? The reason they are heels is the fact that they are evil human beings and can not be trusted. I would like to see a team of two heels and when they loose, one of the guys turns on the other and the reason would be that he says "I did it to you before you would have turned on me!"

You guys are right about how the angles must be done right, but what angles are done right in wrestling these days

 

[Henry Hill]

Another thing is that I understand why faces like each other. But why do heels work together like best friends? The reason they are heels is the fact that they are evil human beings and can not be trusted. I would like to see a team of two heels and when they loose, one of the guys turns on the other and the reason would be that he says "I did it to you before you would have turned on me!"

You guys are right about how the angles must be done right, but what angles are done right in wrestling these days

I feel like you answered your own question, here. Heels are not to be trusted, and "work" each other. Almost all the time when heels work together outside of a faction, or even in a faction, ego takes over and feuds develop. And the "did it to you before you did it me" was done this year by The Miz to John Morrison on the WWE Draft Raw (though JoMo turned face as soon as he got to SD!).
On to the point of the thread, Heel v. Heel feuds have been hit and miss for me. IC mentioned the Martel/HBK feud from '92, which was an entertaining fued in general. It made sense and both guys made it work for their character. Obviously HBK had more staying power than "the Model" but ultimately the feud worked because of good work by all parties involved, especially Sensational Sherri, and because it all made sense at the end. It doesn't matter who is feuding whether it be face v. face, face v. Heel, or Heel v. heel, it has to make sense for the feud to work.

 

[oogieboogie]

On a Saturday afternoon show, Rick Martel was challenging Bret Hart for the coveted Intercontinental Title. Shawn Michaels was also feuding with Bret (this was around the time the ladder match was first run for the IC title), and casually and arrogantly sauntered to the ring and started punching Bret in the head. The issue? Bret was locked in Martel's finisher, the Boston Crab! The ref DQ'd Martel for Shawn's interference, but thought he'd won the title. When Martel looked over and say Shawn beating on Bret, he realized he'd lost the match and the shot he had at the title. He was furious.

A week later, Shawn was wrestling while valet Sherri was ringside. Martel then sauntered down, and rather than interfere with Shawn's match, he flirted with Sherri. He winked at her, she winked at him. Shawn got distracted by this and nearly lost to a jobber. Martel left, satsfied with himself.

Does anyone know where i can watch these matches? I am more interested in the Martel v Hart match as i don't think i ever saw that. I kinda briefly remember the one where Michaels almost lost to a jobber.