HBK

[mcfly2012]

Now why did he drop the title before 13? He said he lost his smile. Also it was meant to be a mania 12 rematch with Bret. I mean I don't know the total ins and outs like some people on here do. The other thing is if HBK had kept his smile then we would have been deprived of the Bret v Austin match.
If what HBK says that he had a role to play in Montreal because of business or whatever then why wouldn't HBK do the job to Bret at Wrestlemania 13? Wasn't that the right thing to do for business?

 

[klunderbunker]

The original plan was to have Bret get his win back at Wrestlemania 13 and then eventually have Bret drop the title to Austin at Wrestlemania 14. Bret and Shawn had some serious real life issues and neither really wanted to work with the other, which is why the rematch took over a year and a half. There were issues such as a backstage fight and Shawn mentioning Bret's real life affair with Sunny on air. Then Shawn claimed a knee injury, referenced in the Lost My Smile speech, but he's hinted that it was fake, or at least nowhere near as severe as he made it out to be. That was widely viewed as a way to not do a job for Bret.

 

[HBKperfect23]

Shawn had injured his knee prior to WM13. A lot of people question the legitimacy of the injury. Shawn still sticks with the story of the injury being real, considering he admits a lot of wrong doing from that timeframe I tend to believe him.

The plan for WM14 was always Shawn/Austin. it was being reported as early as the summer of 97.

 

[peter_midnight]

He dropped the title because he didn't want to job to anyone let alone Bret Hart. With the exception of Sid Vicious, I don't think Shawn Michaels jobbed to anybody after he won the belt at WM 12 until he lost the belt to Austin at 14.

To answer your question about being best for business. It's because Shawn Michaels is full of crap. Thats' why he wouldn't lose the belt at WM13. Supposedly he had a serious knee injury, but even Kevin Nash admitted in his RF shoot that Shawn always had a way of getting time off. Every wrestler that has ever had a serious knee injury has altered their style significantly or slowed down to some degree. Shawn Michaels allegedly has had career ending knee injuries and back injuries. I don't buy it. Look at Scott Steiner. When he hurt his back, he completely changed his style from his All American wrestler Scotty Steiner days. When Austin, Hogan, and Bret hurt their knees they had braces on their legs. Shawn has had neither of these and very little altered his style so I find his claims highly suspect.

I can believe that a bad knee could be worked through since I have seen Terry Funk & Bret Hart work through bad knee injuries, but a bad back? In the history of wrestling, I think Ric Flair is the only guy to come back from a back injury and put in like 20 plus years in the business, but if you look at how he wrestles, he doesn't fall on his back like normal guys do. He does not take flat back falls. If someone can point to me how Shawn Michaels altered his style in order to adjust to his injuries by all means I'd like to know. Until then, I call BS.

 

[Goldie]

Shawn might have been ring worn... but he was back in action bouncing around like a ping pong ball just 3 months after he 'lost his smile'.

Shawn meant it with his catchphrase 'HBK don't lie down for anyone'.... so there could easily be a foundation laid for Shawn exaggerating the injury to avoid jobbing to arch rival Bret.
Even with Shawn losing to Sid.... he knew he would get the title back a couple of months later at the Rumble.

Rumours persist that he was still reluctant to drop the title to Austin at WM14.... despite his back desperately needing surgery.

 

[HBKperfect23]

Rumours persist that he was still reluctant to drop the title to Austin at WM14.... despite his back desperately needing surgery.

He didn't want to leave the company and accept he had to retire. It had nothing to do with Austin. Shawn had every intention of showing up at mania. He just made it as difficult as possible for everyone involved. Either way, Austin was leaving with the title that night.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

Shawn had a massive problem jobbing titles throughout his 1st career, he forfeited more titles than anyone in WWF history.

To put it in perspective, in that first tenure he only actually put Sid over for a title.

He vacated his first and third IC titles (get to the 2nd in a moment), ALL his tag titles and the World title... he then "layed down" for Triple H with the Euro title which arguably doesn't count as a proper job either.

His 2nd IC title is perhaps the most interesting, he was pinned in an "unclean" finish by Marty Janetty. The story leading up to this is well documented. Shawn had been originally slated to drop to Jannetty on an early episode of RAW after their Rumble match. Vince had decided to alter their match and Sherri was inserted, despite not being involved on the house show circut. That coupled with a legit shoulder injury to Janetty led to a "red reels" match which left Vince furious. Shawn falsely accused Marty of being under the influence and Jannetty was fired. Later Shawn was dumb enough to tell Curt Hennig of how he'd "kept his title" and justifiably furious, Curt told Vince and insisted Janetty was not only rehired but given a "Billy Martin", or put back to where he would have been.

Shawn was forced to job to Jannetty as originally planned, with a furious Hennig willing to ensure the trade took place. But 3 months of being unjustly fired had done a number on Jannetty... the damage that blighted his career came from that...just cos Shawn didn't want to drop to his former partner for a month or two... He was always getting it back when Diesel came along. But Shawn just HATED dropping belts.

But out of that tenure he only jobbed once in the proper sense for a title... yet he held 9 titles in that time. It's why he has such a bad rep and that his "rebirth" is viewed by many as convenient airbrushing. His jobs to Jannetty and Austin were enforced by the boys... Taker was legit ready to end Shawn if he tried to screw Austin. and the Hunter Euro one? Less said the better.

 

[Soulblazed]

Yea, the consensus was that Shawn did the "lost my smile" promo in order to avoid jobbing cleanly to Bret at Wrestlemania 13 and it does make sense in hind-sight..I can't find any Bret clips talking specifically about Shawn refusing to job at Wrestlemania 13 but I have found a Taker clip and a Cornette clip which confirm the Wrestlemania 14 taped fists story.

Undertaker clip-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_89ATkZPNg

Cornette clip-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI5YDqkrbkc

 

[HBKperfect23]

Shawn had a massive problem jobbing titles throughout his 1st career, he forfeited more titles than anyone in WWF history.

To put it in perspective, in that first tenure he only actually put Sid over for a title.

IC title he lost to Jannetty and lost to Razor, one title was surrendored due to a 9-1 attack.

World title: put over Sid, put over Austin. One title forfeited

Tag titles: his partner was becoming world champion in less then a month so they didn't job.

Your claims about how bad shawn screwed over Jannetty are ridiculous. Jannetty still struggles with manny of those problems today. He was never able to keep it together for a good run no matter which company he worked for. But I'm sure that's all Shawns fault too.

 

[Goldie]

He didn't want to leave the company and accept he had to retire. It had nothing to do with Austin. Shawn had every intention of showing up at mania. He just made it as difficult as possible for everyone involved. Either way, Austin was leaving with the title that night.

I didn't want to mention the WM14 Undertaker taped fists story.... but it has now been posted in this thread.
It was more to do with Shawn mouthing off than him not showing up.

Healthwise he couldn't have continued as champ but why be such a pain and make it as difficult as possible? Austin was red hot at the time.

 

[Wrestlingaholic]

IC title he lost to Jannetty and lost to Razor, one title was surrendored due to a 9-1 attack.

World title: put over Sid, put over Austin. One title forfeited

Tag titles: his partner was becoming world champion in less then a month so they didn't job.

Your claims about how bad shawn screwed over Jannetty are ridiculous. Jannetty still struggles with manny of those problems today. He was never able to keep it together for a good run no matter which company he worked for. But I'm sure that's all Shawns fault too.

To make some slight amendments (although I agree with your general points):

IC: 1 - lost to Janetty; 2 - forfeited via suspension; 3 - forfeited due to that attack you mentioned.

Tag: 1 - forfeited when WWE split his team (a slow burn starting at Summerslam '94 the day after they won the titles, ending at Survivor Series a couple of days prior to Diesel winning the world title in record time); 2 - decision reversed due to controversial finish to match

WWE: 1 - pinned by Sid; 2 - forfeited due to "losing his smile"; 3 - pinned by Austin

Euro: pinned in a farce by stablemate HHH

The thing is, almost all of those changes fit the storyline. The cool thing to say is that 'obnoxious Michaels forfeited more titles than anyone', but actually people neglect to see the bigger picture. As you say, very shortly after losing the tag titles, his partner Diesel became the world champion (up to this point, WWE's on-screen rule had always been that you could not hold two titles simultaneously, which is why the Ultimate Warrior ceded the IC title after Wrestlemania VI, and Bob Backlund, who won the tag titles whilst WWE Champion, was never allowed to be recognised as a tag champion, the previous champs getting re-awarded the belts). If you look at the storyline, the only reason HBK and Diesel got the belts in the first place was to boost Diesel's face prospects when the inevitable split happened, so the fans would be that much more accepting of him as a face world champion.

The nightclub attack, whatever the reason, you can't account for that. Given it was verified by at least two others in Sean Waltman and Davey Boy Smith, it's not like it was fabricated. If you look at the subsequent IC reigns, Shawn was due to face Dean Douglas at In Your House 4. If people are suggesting Shawn found a way of deliberately not 'jobbing' the title to Douglas, why then did WWE go down the route of having Razor Ramon beat Douglas for the title the same night? Surely this implies that Shawn Michaels had in fact been booked to retain v Douglas at In Your House?

The Marty Jannetty claims, I've always felt they were equally absurd. It is well known that Jannetty was gone for a year after the Rockers split after demanding more money off Vince. When he came back, the IC title match at the Royal Rumble was a technical masterpiece, easily the match of the night, and it definitely helped elevate Shawn Michaels in the eyes of the fans. So Vince had NO reason to believe that Marty was at fault for a bad match, simply because the match WAS NOT BAD. Now, whether or not Shawn did make up stories about Marty after the event is a different matter that I couldn't possibly know, but it certainly wouldn't have been in connection with a match that, by this point, had arguably been the 2nd best match in Shawn's singles career (after his Survivor Series loss to Bret Hart)

I don't know why people like to paint certain pictures of Shawn Michaels. It seems that, especially since he himself acknowledges that he was a dick when younger, fans like to go back and find any mud they can throw at him. I can't believe an earlier poster has insinuated that his back injury may not have been serious (that's some story to get out of legit losing a title, taking 4 YEARS off of active work!) The only one you can attribute to him refusing to lose (discounting, as Taylor did, the ridiculous Euro switch) was him losing his smile. That was a dickish thing to do. But the rest, by and large were all either genuine or fit the storyline. Bottom line is, I wish people didn't always believe the first thing they hear.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

To make some slight amendments (although I agree with your general points):

IC: 1 - lost to Janetty; 2 - forfeited via suspension; 3 - forfeited due to that attack you mentioned.

Tag: 1 - forfeited when WWE split his team (a slow burn starting at Summerslam '94 the day after they won the titles, ending at Survivor Series a couple of days prior to Diesel winning the world title in record time); 2 - decision reversed due to controversial finish to match

WWE: 1 - pinned by Sid; 2 - forfeited due to "losing his smile"; 3 - pinned by Austin

Euro: pinned in a farce by stablemate HHH

The thing is, almost all of those changes fit the storyline. The cool thing to say is that 'obnoxious Michaels forfeited more titles than anyone', but actually people neglect to see the bigger picture. As you say, very shortly after losing the tag titles, his partner Diesel became the world champion (up to this point, WWE's on-screen rule had always been that you could not hold two titles simultaneously, which is why the Ultimate Warrior ceded the IC title after Wrestlemania VI, and Bob Backlund, who won the tag titles whilst WWE Champion, was never allowed to be recognised as a tag champion, the previous champs getting re-awarded the belts). If you look at the storyline, the only reason HBK and Diesel got the belts in the first place was to boost Diesel's face prospects when the inevitable split happened, so the fans would be that much more accepting of him as a face world champion.

The nightclub attack, whatever the reason, you can't account for that. Given it was verified by at least two others in Sean Waltman and Davey Boy Smith, it's not like it was fabricated. If you look at the subsequent IC reigns, Shawn was due to face Dean Douglas at In Your House 4. If people are suggesting Shawn found a way of deliberately not 'jobbing' the title to Douglas, why then did WWE go down the route of having Razor Ramon beat Douglas for the title the same night? Surely this implies that Shawn Michaels had in fact been booked to retain v Douglas at In Your House?

The Marty Jannetty claims, I've always felt they were equally absurd. It is well known that Jannetty was gone for a year after the Rockers split after demanding more money off Vince. When he came back, the IC title match at the Royal Rumble was a technical masterpiece, easily the match of the night, and it definitely helped elevate Shawn Michaels in the eyes of the fans. So Vince had NO reason to believe that Marty was at fault for a bad match, simply because the match WAS NOT BAD. Now, whether or not Shawn did make up stories about Marty after the event is a different matter that I couldn't possibly know, but it certainly wouldn't have been in connection with a match that, by this point, had arguably been the 2nd best match in Shawn's singles career (after his Survivor Series loss to Bret Hart)

I don't know why people like to paint certain pictures of Shawn Michaels. It seems that, especially since he himself acknowledges that he was a dick when younger, fans like to go back and find any mud they can throw at him. I can't believe an earlier poster has insinuated that his back injury may not have been serious (that's some story to get out of legit losing a title, taking 4 YEARS off of active work!) The only one you can attribute to him refusing to lose (discounting, as Taylor did, the ridiculous Euro switch) was him losing his smile. That was a dickish thing to do. But the rest, by and large were all either genuine or fit the storyline. Bottom line is, I wish people didn't always believe the first thing they hear.

I can agree with a lot of what you're saying. But at the same time, while accusing some of only looking at HBK's track record in the 90's in one light, you're really just doing the same.

The title forfeits did fit into the storyline... because they had to. They also increasingly had more to do with the fact that the guy simply would not do business the right way, which is what still rubs people so wrongly about him.

The first IC one where he was suspended was easy enough to work out, since it was an internal suspension and they didn't have any real urgency to get something done quickly. In hindsight though, this is the beginning of another troubling trend behind his forfeiture record. The beneficiary of it happens to be Kliq member Scott Hall.

The second IC forfeiture had a little urgency to it, but truthfully didn't even need to happen. I'm pretty sure Shane Douglas is the only one who believes he was getting the IC title that night... but why forfeit the belt? Why not just do an injury angle and set up a rematch for the next month... like has been done time and time again in the business? Why advertise that your babyface champion got beat up by a bunch of Marines? The Internet wasn't much of a thing at the time... it wouldn't have been a known incident if they didn't make it known themselves... and Michaels wasn't so badly hurt that he needed a lot of time off. He worked RAW with Owen Hart a few weeks later. To me it raised more questions than anything, like why would a pack of Marines beat this guy up? And why was this so bad that a guy who fought for a living couldn't defend his title anymore? Because up till then, fans were conditioned that babyface champions were the types of guys that wouldn't quit, and who's championships meant more than anything to them.

The truth behind the second forfeiture is that Vince already had it in mind that Shawn was going to become his champion at Wrestlemania, and he needed to get the belt off of Shawn and still have time to build him properly for WM. Shawn, already in the mindset that he didn't want to do anymore jobs, took advantage of the real life Marine situation to get out of having to do a traditional job to drop the belt. Plus once again, by getting Razor to beat Douglas for the belt, the Kliq got to reap the benefits.

So when you get to him 'losing his smile' and forfeiting the heavyweight title? Well that was so blatant that it's hard for anyone not to look at his previous history and question it... especially when that previous history is so extensive, and the man himself is less than honest (he still says that he had to drop that title because of a legit knee injury, even though a week later he was prancing out to do commentary)

I have a hard time blaming Shawn completely for Marty Jannetty like Taylor loves to do. Jannetty was his own worst enemy. Incredibly self destructive, and never really grew up. When they were a tag team, they were notorious partiers on the road, and there's more than one story of them trashing hotel rooms, trashing hotels in general, and getting involved in shit that if they did it today would be constant front page TMZ news. Shawn to his credit, when they split started taking his career more seriously, and while he didn't tone down the partying, he took it in a different direction that wasn't so outwardly destructive. Marty on the other hand, just kept doing the same thing he'd always done. The guy has a record for number of times he's been fired and rehired by that company. I think it's in the double digits by now. Shawn didn't help his old friend in the 90's... but it wouldn't have mattered. Marty was going to fuck things up no matter what.

The back injury and some people not believing it? I wouldn't be so outraged at the thought. Many people think that... including people who knew the guy personally. Most feel that while he did hurt his back, the severity of the injury itself was extremely overstated, and that the real reason that he was gone for so long is his drug problem was so bad that they wouldn't let him come back to stay until he got clean.

The reason many feel that the injury itself was overstated? Because of the fact that it was supposedly career ending, and he was able to come back, work the exact same style without any noticeable modifications to protect his back, and do it for years. Even before he was wrestling and they'd bring him back in the various capacities, he still didn't seem to have any of the issues getting around like you'd suspect a guy whose back was supposedly as bad as Shawn's was. Pull up some Shawn Michaels commish stuff on Youtube and ask yourself if you've ever had back problems, if you could move around like he does?

Plus finally, while he is forthcoming these days about the type of jerk he used to be... it also seems to me that when it comes to dickish things he did professionally, he's not nearly as forthcoming... like that's something he's still protecting.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

I can agree with a lot of what you're saying. But at the same time, while accusing some of only looking at HBK's track record in the 90's in one light, you're really just doing the same.

The title forfeits did fit into the storyline... because they had to. They also increasingly had more to do with the fact that the guy simply would not do business the right way, which is what still rubs people so wrongly about him.

The first IC one where he was suspended was easy enough to work out, since it was an internal suspension and they didn't have any real urgency to get something done quickly. In hindsight though, this is the beginning of another troubling trend behind his forfeiture record. The beneficiary of it happens to be Kliq member Scott Hall.

The second IC forfeiture had a little urgency to it, but truthfully didn't even need to happen. I'm pretty sure Shane Douglas is the only one who believes he was getting the IC title that night... but why forfeit the belt? Why not just do an injury angle and set up a rematch for the next month... like has been done time and time again in the business? Why advertise that your babyface champion got beat up by a bunch of Marines? The Internet wasn't much of a thing at the time... it wouldn't have been a known incident if they didn't make it known themselves... and Michaels wasn't so badly hurt that he needed a lot of time off. He worked RAW with Owen Hart a few weeks later. To me it raised more questions than anything, like why would a pack of Marines beat this guy up? And why was this so bad that a guy who fought for a living couldn't defend his title anymore? Because up till then, fans were conditioned that babyface champions were the types of guys that wouldn't quit, and who's championships meant more than anything to them.

The truth behind the second forfeiture is that Vince already had it in mind that Shawn was going to become his champion at Wrestlemania, and he needed to get the belt off of Shawn and still have time to build him properly for WM. Shawn, already in the mindset that he didn't want to do anymore jobs, took advantage of the real life Marine situation to get out of having to do a traditional job to drop the belt. Plus once again, by getting Razor to beat Douglas for the belt, the Kliq got to reap the benefits.

So when you get to him 'losing his smile' and forfeiting the heavyweight title? Well that was so blatant that it's hard for anyone not to look at his previous history and question it... especially when that previous history is so extensive, and the man himself is less than honest (he still says that he had to drop that title because of a legit knee injury, even though a week later he was prancing out to do commentary)

I have a hard time blaming Shawn completely for Marty Jannetty like Taylor loves to do. Jannetty was his own worst enemy. Incredibly self destructive, and never really grew up. When they were a tag team, they were notorious partiers on the road, and there's more than one story of them trashing hotel rooms, trashing hotels in general, and getting involved in shit that if they did it today would be constant front page TMZ news. Shawn to his credit, when they split started taking his career more seriously, and while he didn't tone down the partying, he took it in a different direction that wasn't so outwardly destructive. Marty on the other hand, just kept doing the same thing he'd always done. The guy has a record for number of times he's been fired and rehired by that company. I think it's in the double digits by now. Shawn didn't help his old friend in the 90's... but it wouldn't have mattered. Marty was going to fuck things up no matter what.

The back injury and some people not believing it? I wouldn't be so outraged at the thought. Many people think that... including people who knew the guy personally. Most feel that while he did hurt his back, the severity of the injury itself was extremely overstated, and that the real reason that he was gone for so long is his drug problem was so bad that they wouldn't let him come back to stay until he got clean.

The reason many feel that the injury itself was overstated? Because of the fact that it was supposedly career ending, and he was able to come back, work the exact same style without any noticeable modifications to protect his back, and do it for years. Even before he was wrestling and they'd bring him back in the various capacities, he still didn't seem to have any of the issues getting around like you'd suspect a guy whose back was supposedly as bad as Shawn's was. Pull up some Shawn Michaels commish stuff on Youtube and ask yourself if you've ever had back problems, if you could move around like he does?

Plus finally, while he is forthcoming these days about the type of jerk he used to be... it also seems to me that when it comes to dickish things he did professionally, he's not nearly as forthcoming... like that's something he's still protecting.

Of course he doesn't talk about the things he did, because that's part and parcel of the "rebirthing" as a Christian, you get "absolved by god" and most of the people he has wronged he tried VERY hard to convert, including Marty so thus THEY absolve him and he gets the "out" of "Only God can Judge Me". How many nasty people find religion and "repent"? A lot... how many wrestlers who did bad things to their families and colleauges? MOST... and Shawn leads the charge.

Shawn's latter career on balance probably equals up the bad business he did, but he still only jobbed his other 3rd World belt to Hunter. Guys like Helms made reference to "not much changing" with Shawn but he had a shield in his religion. Even his relationship with Jericho at times was frosty, but they could bond over the match preparation and use that to get past tension.

There is no magic carwash in life that wipes clean your sins, only people who believe in one.

You mention that I "love" to blame Shawn, no I don't, I feel sad that this stuff is associated with a guy who was SO good at his job in the main. But he is the ultimate hypocrite all told, he spent years ducking jobbing titles then screwed someone else cos they wouldn't job to him. He backstabbed guys like Janetty and Tatanka, ruining legit and deserved chances for them. He pulled the "dick move" on Davey on the UK PPV and made him job in front of his dying sister... none of it was necessary, Shawn would have still had those titles/great career if he hadn't made those choices. It's a bit rich to say that cos you find "god, allah, the flying spaghetti monster etc" that those things simply vanish. They don't. I blame Shawn for propogating that myth to so many guys in the business... It's almost like DDP and he are competing... DDP does it the right way, "take responsibility and atone", Shawn is "be saved and it all goes away", check out Honky's shoot on the subject... it's searing stuff but I can believe it.