HBK vs. JBL

[The Brain]

I’m curious as to what you guys think about the angle between Shawn Michaels and JBL from late 2008/early 2009. I remember thinking it was kind of a far fetched angle and a little cheesy but I still found myself really enjoying it. Seeing as how this is the old school section and this angle was only three years ago I’ll assume that you are familiar with it so I’ll spare you the history lesson.

When the angle first started I rolled my eyes at it. As the weeks went on I found myself looking forward to Raw to see how it developed. The best angles are the ones that bring out emotion and I got caught up in the drama of this one. HBK was such a talented performer that he made this work and JBL was the perfect bad guy. For nearly a year we had a good idea that HBK would go against Undertaker at WrestleMania 25 and I was really looking forward to it. As the JBL angle went on I was actually thinking maybe HBK vs. JBL was mania worthy. I think they could have gotten a little more mileage out of the angle by pushing back the No Way Out match and stipulation, and with the stakes so high mania would have been a great blow off.

Going into mania in 2009 do you think HBK vs. JBL was worthy of a mania match? I know everyone loved HBK vs. Taker and to suggest anything else should have happened seems ludicrous. Keep in mind before it happened we didn’t know that match would have been an instant classic. HBK vs. Taker could have been held off until WM26. I never really cared for their back to back mania matches anyway. I think with the build, the drama, the emotion, and the talent, HBK and JBL could have given us something great at mania. Even if you don’t think the match should have taken place at mania I’d like to hear your general thoughts on the angle.

 

[dman1373]

it seemed like it was going to be the mania match, but then they ended it abrubtly. I think they had a good fued that would have ended better at mania. But locking back, they needed to end it like that to have michaels vs taker, which was a great match. But if taker got injured that would have been a perfect match.

 

[#hamler]

Looking back, it seems alright compared to the storylines we normally see today. But back then, I remember hating it. The feud itself seemed like it was meant to do nothing but give Shawn Michaels something to do until Wrestlemania. It was a transition feud and I typically hate those. Not to mention, I'm sure everyone knew Shawn was a multi-millionaire at this point in his career, what with being one of WWE's cornerstones and all. I hated seeing that side of Shawn Michaels. He wasn't the flamboyant cocky HBK that I've grown up with. He was miserable and depressed and poor and whatnot; I didn’t care for the character. The old HBK wouldn’t have let his money situations bother him in the slightest. He would’ve kept kicking ass, taking names and putting on some of the best matches on the card. JBL played the evil boss character really well and if it weren't for him, this feud would've been complete shit.

Although I didn't really mind the feud, I don't particularly understand why Shawn Michaels had to play the role of JBL's lackey. That role would have been perfect for some up and comer to get his name really out there. The same type of feud worked with numerous of talents before. One of which became one of the bigger stars of the decade in Batista. That type of build up could have certainly worked for anyone else but Shawn. The WWE should’ve worked more on the Shawn Michaels/Undertaker feud or at least saved JBL for after Wrestlemania. It just felt...there. Then they ended it quickly.

 

[The Brain]

I'm sure everyone knew Shawn was a multi-millionaire at this point in his career, what with being one of WWE's cornerstones and all.

That’s the part I didn’t like. After all, Shawn was ready to retire at SummerSlam just a few months earlier. I got past it though because in wrestling we have to overlook those kinds of things. Hell if the custody of a child can be determined in a ladder match I can convince myself that HBK had run into financial hardships.

I hated seeing that side of Shawn Michaels. He wasn't the flamboyant cocky HBK that I've grown up with. He was miserable and depressed and poor and whatnot; I didn’t care for the character. The old HBK wouldn’t have let his money situations bother him in the slightest. He would’ve kept kicking ass, taking names and putting on some of the best matches on the card. JBL played the evil boss character really well and if it weren't for him, this feud would've been complete shit.

I think seeing another side of HBK is what made the angle intriguing. Sure the old HBK wouldn’t care about finances as much, but this wasn’t the old HBK. This HBK had a wife and kids and was in his 40s. He had to swallow his pride and think about his family’s future. After years of being the cocky HBK it was interesting to see Shawn in another role.

Although I didn't really mind the feud, I don't particularly understand why Shawn Michaels had to play the role of JBL's lackey. That role would have been perfect for some up and comer to get his name really out there. The same type of feud worked with numerous of talents before. One of which became one of the bigger stars of the decade in Batista. That type of build up could have certainly worked for anyone else but Shawn. The WWE should’ve worked more on the Shawn Michaels/Undertaker feud or at least saved JBL for after Wrestlemania. It just felt...there. Then they ended it quickly.

I don’t think the angle would have worked with an up and comer. The reason it was better with Shawn was because he had built a relationship with the fans for 20 years. We knew him and we cared about him. If it were just some up and comer there wouldn’t have been anywhere near the amount of emotion.

I completely understand people not liking the angle but I think if we accept the initial premise and if it got the mania build and blow off it would be remembered as one of the better angles of the past few years.

 

[TheChosenOne10]

i enjoyed the angle I just wish it wasn't told exactly the same. JBL should have somehow cheated to beat HBK at the beginning with his services on the line. Then I would have loved to see it last a few months with HBK having to do JBL's dirty work and what not until finally HBK getting a match with him. Im a huge JBL fan, the guy is very entertaining and was solid in the ring and he and HBK could pull out a great WM match with great build up.

Obviously I'm not saying this should have happened over the Taker match just that I would have enjoyed this as an option.

 

[JJ15776]

Personally, let me first say that I hate all variations of the "slave" storyline in wrestling. Not only is it extremely overdone(which makes it repetitive and predictable), it's not realistic and can be uncomfortable to watch.

Personal preference aside, I thought HBK and JBL did the best they could and played their roles to perfection. But yeah, the fued itsself was lackluster and definitely could have benefitted from the extra buildup and bigger stage that would've come with a WrestleMania blowoff.

Plus, if that happened, we never would've been subject to seeing JBL beating Punk for the IC title with no reason, buildup, or follow through, and then randomly losing the title to Rey Mysterio and retiring on the spot. That whole thing was also very strange.

Actually, looking back at that WrestleMania card, it seems like they were really struggling with a lot of it. Obviously the Triple H/Orton buildup was great, but the rest of it was very blah(not the matches themselves, the storylines leading up to it)...the whole Cena/Edge/Big Show thing, with Vickie Guerrero somehow involved, was all very odd. It was like they couldn't decide if they wanted to go with Cena vs. Edge, Cena vs. Big show, or Edge vs. Big Show, so they just threw them all in there together. There was the aforementioned Mysterio/JBL match, then the whole thing with Chris Jericho and all the legends that was supposed to lead to Jericho vs. Mickey Rourke, but that never panned out so he faced Piper/Steamboat/Snuka in a handicap match. You had Santino Marella winning the Miss WrestleMania battle royal, where they brought back every former diva they could and then didn't take the time to give them an introduction before the match. I really don't know what was going on back then...it was like they focused all their time on the Orton/McMahon/Triple H storyline and just hoped everything else would come together.

But back on topic, I remember reading afterwards that JBL was going to have his last match at WrestleMania that year and he personally chose Rey Mysterio to be the guy that retired him - in fact, he came out of retirement just to eventually have that match. In which case, they didn't have a choice to extend or postpone the HBK/JBL storyline. But if that wasn't the case, I think they either build up HBK/JBL to a WrestleMania blowoff, or save it for after WrestleMania. They could've tied his money problems into him coming back after the Undertaker loss and had a blowoff match at SummerSlam or Survivor Series. I think, either way, it would've been a much better fued if they had given it more time. But nothing really seemed to come together for them that year.

 

[shooter_mcgavin]

Although I didn't really mind the feud, I don't particularly understand why Shawn Michaels had to play the role of JBL's lackey. That role would have been perfect for some up and comer to get his name really out there.

From what I recall and read, the story was inspired from the film The Wrestler. A Wrestling legend down on his luck and now needing money desperate, which is why HBK made a reference in his promo about not being one of those "veterans who people see working in the super market (not the exact words)" a reference from The Wrestler.

I liked the feud and like the Chris Jericho feud Shawn Michaels had before it, it was a personal one involving his family and friends so there could have been a continuity with his Y2J and JBL rivalry in 2008.

I liked the story since it felt really relevant to the economic crisis going on at the time and felt it was a pretty tasteful feud.

Would I have wanted this to blow off at WM? Yes, as great as HBK and Undertaker's match was there was really very little build to the match. I felt that the storyline surrounding HBK and JBL would have been a perfect match at WM. Plus add a No Holds Barred stipulation to boot, it probably would have been a classic. Besides they did HBK and Undertaker at WM26 again anyways.

 

[yamesh2011]

I’m curious as to what you guys think about the angle between Shawn Michaels and JBL from late 2008/early 2009. I remember thinking it was kind of a far fetched angle and a little cheesy but I still found myself really enjoying it. Seeing as how this is the old school section and this angle was only three years ago I’ll assume that you are familiar with it so I’ll spare you the history lesson.

When the angle first started I rolled my eyes at it. As the weeks went on I found myself looking forward to Raw to see how it developed. The best angles are the ones that bring out emotion and I got caught up in the drama of this one. HBK was such a talented performer that he made this work and JBL was the perfect bad guy. For nearly a year we had a good idea that HBK would go against Undertaker at WrestleMania 25 and I was really looking forward to it. As the JBL angle went on I was actually thinking maybe HBK vs. JBL was mania worthy. I think they could have gotten a little more mileage out of the angle by pushing back the No Way Out match and stipulation, and with the stakes so high mania would have been a great blow off.

Going into mania in 2009 do you think HBK vs. JBL was worthy of a mania match? I know everyone loved HBK vs. Taker and to suggest anything else should have happened seems ludicrous. Keep in mind before it happened we didn’t know that match would have been an instant classic. HBK vs. Taker could have been held off until WM26. I never really cared for their back to back mania matches anyway. I think with the build, the drama, the emotion, and the talent, HBK and JBL could have given us something great at mania. Even if you don’t think the match should have taken place at mania I’d like to hear your general thoughts on the angle.

HBK v Taker saved Wrestlemania 25. It was worthy of match of Wrestlemania history, or one of them. As for JBL he has never had a mat classic in his life so im sure HBK would have provided that. But my question is that who would have Taker faced at Mania 25 instead of HBK? Everyone was busy in angles at the time. MITB match maybe??

 

[J.J.]

I was never fond of the angle and just wrote it off as a card filler. Had HBK been a severant to JBL longer, helping him with leverage in victories I would've enjoyed it more. Unfortunately it was over and done with too soon. JBL was one of the better heels, behind Jericho and Orton at the time. It was worthy of a Mania match simply because HBK would undoubtedly put on a great show.

 

[#hamler]

I think seeing another side of HBK is what made the angle intriguing. Sure the old HBK wouldn’t care about finances as much, but this wasn’t the old HBK. This HBK had a wife and kids and was in his 40s. He had to swallow his pride and think about his family’s future. After years of being the cocky HBK it was interesting to see Shawn in another role.

I hated it. The entire year was filled with the same kind of Shawn Michaels. Ever since Wrestlemania 24, Shawn seemed too damn emotional for my liking. His feud with Ric Flair, Batista and Chris Jericho showed us enough of the emotional side of Michaels and by early 2009, I wasn't exactly intriguing anymore. I understand that it was needed for these types of feuds but I cannot get myself around to liking that kind of Shawn. I guess the comparison could be made between Shawn and Hogan. Although Shawn never turned heel, his character completely changed from what most of us grew up with and I didn't like it.

I completely understand people not liking the angle but I think if we accept the initial premise and if it got the mania build and blow off it would be remembered as one of the better angles of the past few years.

I guess that's the problem. Looking back, the feud felt too rushed to seem like it was anything significant. On paper, it looked like a long feud. But starting in December, nothing happened until The Royal Rumble when JBL lost against Cena. Then it was over with by No Way Out to make room for The Undertaker. I completely understand what you're saying but part of the reason I disliked the feud is because it took time away from Undertaker and Shawn Michaels. Then it made the Undertaker/HBK build fill rushed. That's is one of the major flaws I have with the Undertaker's and Shawn's match at Wrestlemania 25 and that could've been avoidable by postponing the JBL feud until after Wrestlemania. There's no reason the JBL/HBK couldn't have been saved for Summerslam after Wrestlemania where it could've had a proper ending instead of rushing it.

Had the match actually ended at Wrestlemania, I'm sure I would've been alot happier. I'm sure Vladimir Koslov would still be relevant today had Shawn not ended his undefeated streak so quickly (irrelevant I know). With a proper blow off match and a longer time period, it probably could have saved it for me.

 

[The Brain]

HBK v Taker saved Wrestlemania 25. It was worthy of match of Wrestlemania history, or one of them. As for JBL he has never had a mat classic in his life so im sure HBK would have provided that. But my question is that who would have Taker faced at Mania 25 instead of HBK? Everyone was busy in angles at the time. MITB match maybe??

Sure HBK vs. Taker saved WM25, but I’m asking you to look at this question from a pre WM25 point of view. From before we knew what a classic that would be. I’m not saying HBK vs. JBL would have been better than HBK vs. Taker. I just think it could have been a great mania match and was a mania worthy angle. I’m not sure what you mean by mat classic but JBL was more than capable of putting on a great match, especially against Shawn Michaels. If Shawn could get an entertaining match out of Vince McMahon at mania I’m sure he’d do fine with JBL. As for who Taker would have faced, I’d say John Cena would have been a great choice. The triple threat match with Cena, Edge, and Big Show was very underwhelming for mania. That would have been fine for a lesser ppv but for mania it was weak. Even though we’re taking a true classic off the WM25 card picture mania with Triple H vs. Orton, Taker vs. Cena, and HBK vs. JBL. That sounds like it might be a better overall card. Again, I’m not necessarily suggesting this should have happened now that we have the benefit of hindsight (though I’m not saying it shouldn’t have either). I just think at the time, leading up to WM25, this might have been the way to go.

 

[Pedigree1]

I didnt mind the angle i just knew and kinda of went ehh when the whole Wrestling community knew that Shawn Michaels was a multi-millionaire!! Worthy of a Mania match no im glad they ended that angle at i believe at No Way Out!! The part of the lackey should have been someone else i feel not the Icon Shawn Michaels it would have been more believable. The angle in itself though i didnt mind not the best not the worse angle either.

 

[AndThat'sTheBottomLine]

I wasn't a big fan of it. It was a good angle but I hated seeing Shawn that way.Mania worthy? Maybe. JBL was one of my favorite heels and reminded me of a modern day Debiase. I agree that HBK vs JBL, Triple H vs Orton, Cena vs Taker, and Edge vs Show with a MITB match to boot wouldve made for an all around better card. But im glad they stuck with taker and hbk as it and the one after it are two of my all time favorite mania matches.

 

[King of the Words]

I remember hoping this angle would end before mania because i wanted to see HBK and Undertaker fight at the 25th anniversary of Mania. they were and are arguably the 2 best the WWE has ever had so it seemed perfect for the 2 of them to battle at Mania 25. HBK is MR. Wrestlemania and I thought for sure he would be the one to end the streak. But now that he hasn't I don't think anyone deserves to end it if HBK wasn't allowed to. HBK and JBL would have been great, too, and it seemed the story line got rushed at the end, but I'm glad the way it worked out. Although, it would have been a great chance to have undertaker vs. Cena and for undertaker to fight HBK at Mania 26, which he did, but we didn't know that at the time. If Cena vs. Taker had to have happened, I wouldn't have put it passed WWE to let cena end the streak and then we would have probably never seen HBK and Undertaker have a Mania match which would have been a shame.

 

[Cats Pajamas]

This wasn't one of my favorite feuds, to be honest. I don't remember the ins and outs of that feud, but I do remember the feeling of "what is this?" I couldn't believe HBK in that role and I don't recall putting a lot of effort into believing it either.

I really liked seeing a different side to HBK than normal and JBL is one of my favorite heels of all time (an odd choice, I admit) but from week to week, this storyline failed to pick up any notable momentum. Having Michaels in the role of suddenly needing money was a little outta left field, didn't it? So as far as the feud goes, I rate it a solid "meh".

I would've preferred the Mania blowoff. Those two were legit stars (one was a living legend), to put any work into a feud between them then end it so abruptly, it seemed like a waste. The half assed story didn't do anything for them either.

I think the least they could've done was in some way interject JBL into Taker/HBK. In the end, it'd been stupid, but I wish Bradshaw would've cost HBK his 1st Mania match against the Undertaker so he'd have a better reason for challenging him again next year. But, like I said, that'd have been dumb.

 

[Dagger Dias]

I thought it was a very interesting angle. Few heels could generate as much hatred as JBL, especially at that time. Michaels did great in this feud too with getting sympathy from fans. Many of us knew he wasn't truly broke and that him working for JBL was only kayfabe'd. While I'm glad it did not stretch out all the way to Wrestlemania (and was glad at the time too), it could have played out differently if it lasted longer and a number of different things could have happened.

What if Michaels had waited until Wrestlemania itself to stand up to JBL? It means we would have missed out on the HBK VS Taker match that year, but it could have provided an interesting moment during a couple of potential matches. JBL could have kept Michaels under his control up until Wrestlemania, he would be stuck in JBL's corner. Imagine if JBL had challenged Cena for the World Heavyweight Championship and forced Michaels to help him, only for Michaels to hit Sweet Chin Music to help Cena retain instead? Or better yet, if JBL had faced Undertaker and just as JBL is about to end the streak, Sweet Chin Music! Taker wins and HBK is free.

That could have been cool and another interesting way to end the angle. I'm glad things went the way they did though. JBL VS Michaels was Wrestlemania worthy. WWE made the right choice though, making us miss out on Michaels VS Taker would not have been worth extending the JBL angle. It was a very good angle for what it was, though, because just when you thought JBL couldn't be any more hated or Michaels couldn't get any more support, both guys showed how great they were at their respective roles in this feud.