Has the WWE killed "Pro Wrestling"?

It's called evolution. I understand why many people here would not recognize what that is.

The WWE- like most entertainment companies- is constantly trying new things as the old things strike people as boring. If you want to know what happened to "pro wrestling", it's in a high school gym wrestling under the "Ring of Honor" banner. An ROH-sized crowd is what 'professional wrestling' brings in these days, because no one really wants to see professional wrestling, and haven't for years now. People want stories, they want drama, they want characters. The nWo wasn't so successful because Kevin Nash and Scott Hall kept ripping off 5-star match after 5-star match.

It's absolutely nothing new; it's changing a company focus in response to a changing media environment
 
First, I reject the idea that pro wrestling is dead. You have two brands that you can watch on cable...WWE and TNA. If you follow indy promotions, you've still got ROH putting on PPVs. You may not like the choices, and there may be less choices out there, but there are choices out there. Pro wrestling as it was run prior to the 1980s was a product of its times, and it was inevitable that there would be consolidation.

Pro wrestling has always been a business, and the WWF/WWE excelled at it.
They broke out of the regional promotion mindset, created a brand, nationalized it, and then globalized it. WCW was viable and thrived for a number of years, before imploding due to its own management. ECW was viable and thrived for a short time, before imploding due to its own management. You can blame part of it on the WWF/WWE, but competition is competition. Deal with it. The void of those companies allowed others like TNA and ROH to start.
 
I think with the wwe they have so much time with the 3 hr raw that we aren't getting the match qualities we want but the quality of wrestling isn't horrible there are some great entertainers in Daniel Bryan the shield orton even Kane right now the problem is they keep repeating matches and you can't have the same match over and over again we have seen big e Langston and del rio for 2 weeks straight it's very tedious I think the idea of quality would be better if they mix things up more then keep repeating
 
No, they haven't "killed" it, but what WWE has done is over-saturate the market with it. This is something many American products and institutions have practiced: when you find something good, give the public more and more until they're sick of it. Of course, the risk is that the people often do get sick of it.... and this is what has happened with many of the folks who faithfully followed pro wrestling.

A good, though, unfortunate example of this is John Cena. I think he's the greatest thing going as an asset for WWE....in terms of his work in the ring and his marketability outside it. Yet, after 10 years, there seem to be plenty of people who are sick to death of him and boo their heads off when he's on screen. Honestly, I think a lot of them are booing because they hear others doing it (many of these folks being the same ones who would jump off skyscrapers to their deaths if they thought it was the "in" thing to do). Still, I think it short-sighted because the man has the kind of charisma you just can't teach: it's either there or it isn't. (I get a kick out of people discussing whether Phil Brooks is "bigger" than Cena in WWE. It isn't even a valid question. Ask WWE's director of marketing that question, and when he stops laughing, tell me what he said).

But as long as WWE management is satisfied with the direction things are going, the ratings they're still attaining and the merchandise they're still selling, pro wrestling isn't gonna die because it's still a part of people's lives that they don't want to lose. If there was less WWE programming available, people would clamor for it more.....and as long as they're clamoring, wrestling will stay alive.
 
I actually think "pro wrestling" has killed WWE. What I mean by that is it seems like people now are more obsessed with the actual wrestling aspect (move sets, technical skills, etc) and the "Indy circuits" where it's actually more like "wrestling" than entertainment. I think WWE started out as pro wrestling then it evolved more into entertainment (which is MUCH, MUCH more lucrative). Now, it seems like there's a growing base of fans that are trying hard to push it back towards the "old days" of strict wrestling with very little "clutter."

To elaborate a little more: Why it's killed WWE is because now unless a guy had an indy background or is a technical wrestler with good moveset, he "sucks" no matter how entertaining he is and the converse is true. If a guy has an indy background, can wrestle, but can't talk, he "deserves" a title shot and should be pushed and is the greatest thing since sliced bread. This is causing fans to be unhappy with the product because their guy isn't being pushed when they're failing to see the entertainment aspect of what WWE is about now.
 
I know WWE is sort of viewed as the big bad monster that ate professional wrestling in the eyes of some people. At the same time though, WWE is the obvious & easy target because it's the only big dog left in the game in the minds of most American fans. As a result, it tends to get blamed for all the various woes affecting pro wrestling as a whole. If WCW had won the Monday Night Wars and WWE had gone the way of the dinosaur, if even ECW had somehow risen to great prominence and toppled both titans to become #1, I think we'd almost certainly have the same complaints, griping, criticism and general hate directed towards WCW or ECW.
Its not an easy target and its a target because it earned that. ECW didn't have to rise to the top but if it had been legally left intact after its collapse and Paul Heyman or whoever who got its remains from bankruptcy court had reopened it out of nowhere in say 2008 or 2010 with a lot of the same roster, the same fed name, the same mentality and style it had in the late '90s and of course its open door policy for dimming stars that we seen in the Eastern Championship Wrestling days then it would had been stronger and more stable in the post Attitude Era because it wouldn't have the WWF and WCW who were both at their zenith and prime to compete with. ECW can compete with WWE, the WWF was a different situation.

ECW would get less criticism because be it Todd Gordon or Paul Heyman we know both men either liked wrestling or respected wrestling and had no shame what so ever in promoting it. They always worked with the younger guys and gave the wrestlers some freedom to develop themselves. If ECW had writers, their authority was not iron clad and their logic was never questionable.

As for WCW I was upset with them for holding back guys in the name of older stars and at all costs. Even though it was too little too late I see them begin to reverse that policy c. 2000 like when Benoit won the title. IRONICALLY THE DEATH NAIL FOR WCW was being apart of a conglomerate that had the same attitude towards wrestling that WWE has. Because WCW was Southern fried tv I don't think the people in these parts would had allowed them to move too far away from "rasslin" regardless..

WWE is to wrestling what O.J. Simpson is to the Black Community, he's only apart of it when he needs to be or has to be.. We can't respect WWE if it doesn't respect its heritage and if it doesn't respect its heritage its gonna have to replace fans with viewers who dont know what wrestling is or was. They outsourced fans from other corners of the entertainment world, you don't get mad props for that and making bank still aint gonna get you props for that move.
Like a few others pointed out, there are alternatives to WWE out there on the indy scene. But, to be totally honest, the vast majority of fans in the states don't really give a shit about them. WWE is a company that's had international television exposure and renown for decades. That's the company that springs to mind when the VAST majority of Americans, whether they're fans or not, think of pro wrestling. WWE is viewed as the big time while the others aren't. I see no reason to vilify WWE because other pro wrestling companies are unable to get themselves to that next level.
They aren't alternatives and thats not completely their fault. How do you know the vast majority of fans aren't interested if they don't know they exist or can't find them easily or just watch whats on? ROH for example is on a cable or satellite system that I think serves less then the U.S. so even if they were a ratings success you'd only have the HDNet base to tap.

When the WWF rose through he ranks it was a bit unprecedented in a sport with regional and state strongholds. I think that you think that companies that were in WWE's position in say 1958 or '63 can do what WWE began doing in the '80s but they seized a spot no one held anyway. When they took it they bogarted it. Thats not wrong necessarily. WCW made headway because its forerunner was already on TBS. When Ted Turner took over Mid-Atlantic and turned that into WCW the reason that territory was able to make it to the big time is because they had access to the networks owned by Turner and Turner's personal backing and support. How do you get out of the gym or armory without name recognition? How do you tour on a regional level with a monopoly preying on you? If I put some of these indy feds on a station with national reach like WCW on TBS in 1988, could you tell me with 100 percent confidence that would not jump start or bring their feds out of obscurity? If you can't say that your just using the lopsided power structure WWE has created in wrestling as an easy critique of these smaller companies.
And then you see ECW on TNN being shown at 3am and you see the WWF on TNN getting shown at 9pm.. You probably would still want to make the comparison both were on the same station pushing the same product so there are no excuses for the small company..

The problem is two fold, one WWE is occupying and holding the top spot hostage and at this point they are nothing more then a charlatan.

If you read various statements, such as statements put out by ROH or PWG brass congratulating some of their former wrestlers for signing with WWE, they themselves give the impression that WWE is simply on that next level. A year or so back, I read an interview given by Cary Silkin, former owner & current president of ROH, basically called ROH a training ground for wrestlers to get to that next level.
If they are using an independent company as a training ground when they aren't even apart of the WWE farm system all you have highlighted is a breakdown in leadership. Maybe they also meant they were happy more people knew guys that they were close to? Maybe they were happy alumni now had more financial resources to work with in life? That doesn't even mean that was their intent or that they are happy with the fact their company can take care of its guys like that? Maybe they were happy someone had to struggle less, don't take that out of context.. Thats not a nod of the hat to WWE..
There are various definitions these days in the minds of some as to what "pro wrestling" is. If you're a genuine traditionalist, then there's pretty much nothing left of "pro wrestling" in the modern market. While some fans refer to themselves as "real wrestling fans" because they prefer certain promotions over others, they're forgetting or conveniently ignoring history. When you look at "real wrestling" in my eyes, that was back in the days when you had guys like Frank Gotch and Georg Hackemshmidt wrestling each other for 3 hours. Over the coming decades, professional wrestling was transformed from a legit sport into, for all intents & purposes, mock combat with the outcomes predetermined. From the 40s through much of the 70s, "real wrestling" consisted of greats like Lou Thesz, Vern Gagne, Danny Hodge, Nick Bockwinkel and various others spending 20-60 minutes trading arm bars, side headlocks and spinning toe holds.
There are different camps in all sports who promote a variant of a style or rules or customs. Just because you have divisions doesn't mean every camp is equal or right. I'm interested in seeing real wrestling with random outcomes, the worked styles that existed after that or the '80s style with all the glitz or the '90s style with all the grits. Any combination of those or just one period is fine. I still argue that if booking sets up the right matches based on probable outcomes then the wrestling we seen in the '30s could in theory also have characters and plots we seen in the '90s. Those are all equal schools of wrestling, WWE placing sports entertainment over wrestling isn't. WWE is trying to join in on fads and the mainstream. WWE is trying to be cultural at too great a cost to its history. WWE is attempting to use its wrestlers and wrestling show as an attempt to prome unrelated endeavors like movies, football leagues, social media gadgets, and so on. Instead of being pop culture, WWE attempts to jump on to pre existing pop culture. WWE and the WWF are very divergent in that sense because eventhough the Attitude Era featured followers who werent always into wrestling they were still givin nothing but unabashed wrestling, no fronts, no posing, just the WWF being the WWF which meant wrestling being wrestling with that edge that you had with everything past the early '90s in this country.
I get that some people aren't into WWE anymore. People's tastes can change over the years whether it be the kind of food they eat to the music they listen to or the programs they watch on television. I've never looked at pro wrestling through rose colored glasses because the same perceived problems that plague WWE have plagued pro wrestling as a whole. There's never been a "perfect" era for pro wrestling. There have always been angles, storylines, feuds and matches that simply just don't click with some people. That's how it was 30 years ago and that's how it'll be 30 years from now. As I said, WWE just happens to be the most convenient target, thusly being a convenient scapegoat, to blame for shortcomings that every wrestling company had, has or ever will have one way or another.
WWE shares problems with other companies past and present but has had unique problems too.
You say tastes change but WWE doesn't technically have that hurdle because WWE appeals to a group of small children using a repetitive appeal to a young kids brain that doesn't see things that we see or catch issues that are obvious.
To break it down to YOU ALL AND NOT JUST JACK HAMMER, WWE Universe has a kid slot. I'm not sure if it makes up 50 percent of the fan pop. or more or less. This slot finds certain basic plots or aesthetics appealing. There is no real complexity to that since its easy to get a kid in aww. Because of the basicness of that older fans like us become upset with the product because we see the holes kids can't and we see other complex problems or redundancy. This adult group we are in his divided between those who can walk away after not seeing reform and those who need a wrestling fix period. We here are mostly the latter.

Going back to the kid slot though, you basically have 25 million kids watching it because it stimulates them like Elmo or Dora the Explorer, when these kids who are 5 to 10ish are four or five years into their wrestling experience they may leave, they are then immidietly replaced wih people in their age group who are stimulated by the exact same basic stimuli. The U.S. population basically grows WWE fans, WWE makes use of a kid phase by appealing to that too hard. That hurts the older fans.

If he goes in reverse, he can circumvent this. He appeals to older people, they take pride in it, they stick with it and watch it well into adult hood the way a fan of '60s wrestling would still had been watching in the '80s atleast but maybe longer. When you appeal to this group you can still get the kid slot because kids look up to older siblings, parents may bond with their kids by showing them wrestling or going to events with them, or the kids might have a need to watch mature programming simply because it isn't kid programming. You come out with the same amount of audience in this 2nd dynamic but its less Sesame Street and degrading. Its less of a spectacle in the sports world too. Its annoying seeing kids that are 11 year after year with a Cena shirt then too years later you mention wrestling and they laugh at you because they no longer watch it.. WWE has created those situations and that deserves unequivocal condemnation.
 
I know many on this forum "don't care" or see value in indy wrestling cause you know "lulz, small arenas, spot fests, ring psychology" and all that other generic crap that has been the response since 2006 and probably before, but when you got guys in Ring of Honor (it's not an indy, just go with it), Pro Wrestling Guerrilla, Evolve, Dragon Gate USA, Chikara, Absolute Intense Wrestling, Squared Circle Wrestling and this place, that place and the other place killing themselves every weekend to get that call from the WWE one day like CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, Seth Rollins, Dean Ambrose, Kassius Ohno, Antonio Cesaro, Evan Bourne, El Generico and Luke Harper have gotten, wrestling will never die.

If you watch those companies I don't see why you'd made this contradictory post. I don't watch them because they arent shown here but I am open to it. But the problem with what you said is they are too divergent from their former selves or personas or styles when they reach WWE. Daniel Bryan isn't the same as Brian Danielson.. Alberto del Rio isn't the same as Dos Caras Jr.. D-Bry couldn't even keep his name and it was on his birth certificate. If what they do is valued there why does WWE make them go through its developmental territory? That undoes what they knew to begin with and changes them. Goldberg did not have to go to the farm fed, neither did Lance Storm, Taz, or other names. Its a red flag as far as "indy cred" retention or legitimACY is concerned when you jump ship to another company and they train you like its your first day. When your a ten or seven year vet and your on NXT that's not good. That is negative, it may or may not be the wrestlers fault but eitherway thats negative. If you under go an overhaul that brings you in compliance and conformity how in the name of God do you then assume that the indy guy is going to spicin the soup?! You can't do both at once..

If they were men with brains then they would atleast use any star power gained in WWE to gather with others and attempt to transfer the feds they came from into better and stronger companies. If they built their own feds up with the intent of gaining ground or attacking WWE they might produce a company that has the perk of letting them be themselves.. All that hard work just so you can be assimilated by the borg? didn't they know the borg take everyone anyway? Don't ever be contrary to the point or your mission has been at to great a cost.
 
But the problem with what you said is they are too divergent from their former selves or personas or styles when they reach WWE. Daniel Bryan isn't the same as Brian Danielson..

I gave you some green rep for making a couple good points, but you're wrong here. One, Bryan had two matches in development and spent little under a month there before it was announced he was being featured on the first season of NXT. Two, most of what he does, from the guy who knows a ton of submissions, to the fact the World title went to his head and he turned heel, to the hugging it out shtick were all done on the indies. Same thing with Punk, his promos following the worked-shoot was like tearing pages from old scripts they were that similar and what made him big was basically the same thing, a Summer of Punk. You can change the name all you want, the ideas are being re-done to a larger audience.

When your a ten or seven year vet and your on NXT that's not good. That is negative, it may or may not be the wrestlers fault but eitherway thats negative.

No, it's not. There is a style on the independents that gets most noticed. What's the biggest thing you can do as an indy worker? Get a contract in Japan for a tour or work for Ring of Honor, what styles do both promotions utilize? Strong Style, which has became the norm on the North American indies (or at least the ones with a shred of noteriety) and in Japan puro. If WWE sees something in someone they like solely cause they got to adjust to a style which is not what they were notable for doesn't make them any less of a person.

CM Punk spent over a year in Ohio Valley Wrestling, he didn't even think WWE were going to use him, at all, they were just taking him off the indies to stop a growing fire but Paul Heyman had seen his work and wanted him on the relaunched ECW. So if your logic applies CM Punk's ability is lessened because he spent a year in development, where to his own admittence, he learn't jack and shit, and to those of us who are familiar with his indy style and can compare all he did was remove the Pepsi Plunge, add more kicks and shape himself off Japanese performer KENTA.

If they were men with brains then they would atleast use any star power gained in WWE to gather with others and attempt to transfer the feds they came from into better and stronger companies. If they built their own feds up with the intent of gaining ground or attacking WWE they might produce a company that has the perk of letting them be themselves.. All that hard work just so you can be assimilated by the borg? didn't they know the borg take everyone anyway? Don't ever be contrary to the point or your mission has been at to great a cost.

I have no clue what your talking about - are you talking in riddles or Star Trek language or something, what's this about a borg?! From what I gather you think all the indy companies should come together and form one giant one to try and create a threat to WWE? Yeah, that's stupid and theoretically impossible. If that isn't what you're trying to say, well I don't care anyway.
 
Christopher Nowinski killed pro wrestling. his institute on concussions and head trauma was the first to study the long term affects of head trauma and concussions and the results have been pretty devastating. not just in wrestling, but in football as well. even if ecw or wcw won the Monday night wars, pro wrestling would still be more careful about protecting the wrestlers heads. so yeah, vince added more entertainment to the product, but that was more to protect his people.
 
I think the quality of how WWE writes and produces Raw right now is most comparable to the 1995 cartoon era of WWF. Of course I may be biased, being a Russo fan, but I think what WWE needs right now is a massive kick up the arse.. They had that from WCW in the mid-90's, and it forced them to push Russo up to being head writer and shift the direction of the company completely. If only TNA could be that catalyst to force Vince to change things up, the wrestling industry could have another boom period agian.
 
Totally agree with you, wrestling hasn't been 'wrestling' for a long time. You can argue that WWE is a business that needs to generate money, but first thing is first. You can't rely on having 2 or 3 good wrestlers here and there just to maintain the status of a wrestling show, because for every 5 matches on RAW only 1 of them is a decent wrestling match. I don't think that the advertising needs to stop, I just think that the focus needs to go back on quality matches and storylines. The storylines today are weak as balls, you'd think that with three hours of RAW you'd see more than a good Shield match and maybe a decent main event.
 
I have no clue what your talking about - are you talking in riddles or Star Trek language or something, what's this about a borg?! From what I gather you think all the indy companies should come together and form one giant one to try and create a threat to WWE? Yeah, that's stupid and theoretically impossible. If that isn't what you're trying to say, well I don't care anyway.

What I was saying is as far as their star power was concerned, instead of just being concerned with upgrading to WWE at all costs from their indy feds perhaps they should put planning into post WWE but not post wrestling careers. I meant that if WWE was too unorthodox for them or too worker release-happy they should look into scenarios in which they build their own product and on star power as a means of having something to bring back to their home indy feds. Kinda like stealing some of WWE's juice to have the power to attempt to jump start an ROH or whatever. Let them be in contact and on the same page as former coworkers from the indies. let them work in sync and promote the storylines they do with each other so they can continue to work those same storylines in another fed and allow that momentum for those storylines to transfer to the indy fed. In affect I am saying let them use WWE to their advantage and later on let them try to attempt to build their indy feds into regional promotions then maybe national. The secret end game should be to help the home fed. Even if that means a shoot reference to the home fed if they aren't being utilized or no they are close to a release.

WWE is the borg in the sense that they must assimilate. So I say to indy guys working hard in a certain non WWE style why work hard in the indy style if your going to have to convert to the WWE style? Why bother with that style if the indy guy with the WWE style is getting the same opportunities at the same rate with the same amount of chance?

I never thought about indy feds unifying or running in conjuction but that is a good idea too.

The jist of it all is I think they should use WWE before WWE uses them and I think they need to try to help their home indy fed so that they can have a stable fed and workplace to work for that doesn't make them switch up on the styles and variant of wrestling they believe in. That is what all this hard work should go in to.
 
Christopher Nowinski killed pro wrestling. his institute on concussions and head trauma was the first to study the long term affects of head trauma and concussions and the results have been pretty devastating. not just in wrestling, but in football as well. even if ecw or wcw won the Monday night wars, pro wrestling would still be more careful about protecting the wrestlers heads. so yeah, vince added more entertainment to the product, but that was more to protect his people.
If he protected his guys more it world either be by accident or default. He couldn't even stop a show after one of his wrestlers fell to their death..

Head protection can't be the reason for WWE's issues. Head protection might eliminate pile drivers and Benoit style head butts but I don't think a safety initiative would show visible affects on aesthetics. The over PGness, reliance of part timers, the putting over of part timers over full timers, the merchandise over plugging, bad storylines, lack of logic, inconsistencies, failed forays into other media and other ills aren't related to safety at all.
 
Now read this carefully...

In the past few years, I've personally seen a decline in the overall quality of professional wrestling. It's clear to me that the WWE doesn't set a high priority on actual wrestling and sets higher priorities on using Raw and Smackdown to further agendas like promoting movies, social media apps, and goodwill towards men.

That's all well and good and I understand that the WWE's a public company that has to generate revenue to make investors happy. But at the same time, the tradition of pro wrestling's dying - if it's not already dead.

So what's your opinion on this subject? Has the WWE killed "pro wrestling" as we used to know and love? Has is IMPROVED pro wrestling?

No offense brother, but...... That is the stupidest notion you can get out of today's product. Yes WWE crams plugs for their movies, promo's and toot how good they are to the community and how out of 6 hours of primetime TV a week half of it are recaps of the other half, but at the end of the day there's a reason Wrestlemania generates such a ridiculous amount of income and there's a reason about 14,000 sit down live to watch WWE's TV tapings. The wrestling. Rock vs Cena wouldn't have been a 2 time record setter if it weren't for the wrestling. At the end of the day, wrestling is still the pillar that holds WWE up and without quality wrestling all of the other ventures they plug would go down the toilet.
 
Rock vs Cena wasn't a second round but a rehash. There is a thin line but you should still try to tell the difference. If WWE needed a part timer with star power in hollywood and Attitude Era origins to get the WM machine's cylinders firing.

WWE's other 11 PPVs have to have a consistent boost with WM's.. WWE can't have WM headliners that will be too old for WM XXXV. WM can't be a success if the only reason someone bought it was because they saved so much money from not buying 3 other PPVs.. WM can't be labeled a success just because the WM ora captured attention from people who always gravitate towards the main show or the big show because its the top spectacle..

KJ maybe you don't understand the concept of winning a battle but losing the war?
 
So I say to indy guys working hard in a certain non WWE style why work hard in the indy style if your going to have to convert to the WWE style? Why bother with that style if the indy guy with the WWE style is getting the same opportunities at the same rate with the same amount of chance?

Because unless they appeal to the independent wrestling fanbase they won't get over, they don't get over then they don't get booked for shows, they don't get booked for shows they don't move onto bigger shows, they don't move onto bigger shows then the chances are they'll never get a deal with WWE. Lance Storm said it best in a blog of his a few months ago, thousands of people train to become wrestlers in America every year, he'd trained over 200, how many of them are attaining decent success? Four. That's the reality of pro-wrestling.

Some get lucky. Mike Bennett got lucky because someone in ROH saw that a sports entertainment gimmick would get someone heat in the company so he was brought in because he had a couple contacts and was getting some looks on the indies, but Mike doesn't work for any major indy for a reason, because most don't want him because his style doesn't fit. He fits the regional companies style, he doesn't fit the majority of indies and especially not the big ones.
 
Because unless they appeal to the independent wrestling fanbase they won't get over, they don't get over then they don't get booked for shows, they don't get booked for shows they don't move onto bigger shows, they don't move onto bigger shows then the chances are they'll never get a deal with WWE. Lance Storm said it best in a blog of his a few months ago, thousands of people train to become wrestlers in America every year, he'd trained over 200, how many of them are attaining decent success? Four. That's the reality of pro-wrestling.

Some get lucky. Mike Bennett got lucky because someone in ROH saw that a sports entertainment gimmick would get someone heat in the company so he was brought in because he had a couple contacts and was getting some looks on the indies, but Mike doesn't work for any major indy for a reason, because most don't want him because his style doesn't fit. He fits the regional companies style, he doesn't fit the majority of indies and especially not the big ones.
They are a group of men, all in their prime, we are the smartest creatures on this planet, they need to use their minds. If the business you work for be it wrestling, lawn care, roofing, wtf ever isn't doing as well as it could try to think outside of the box for its sake and your own on how you can improve business.

I don't want to put words in their mouths cause I honestly don't know but I suspect that their style of choice and main preference is the indy style vs the WWE style. I am curious if I could offer then employment in a ROH style promotion on say WCW's level or WWE which they would choose if the pay was equal? I've wondered that.

Now as for Storm's remark, his number is probably correct but I have to ask when you had two or three big companies were there more people doing decent? In the territorial days were there more people doing decent? The same? Less? In the mid-80s when you had medium sized companies like the UWF, AWA, the then WWF, JCP, and World Class did that offer more stability for the workers accross the board?

Monopolies have never really done anyone any good in any dynamic or situation, these guys are going to have to work on their home promotions and quit fantasizing about WWE tv and Vince's cock. Its gonna take longer and its gonna be harder and they are going to need a lot of cunning but they need to build up the place they came from. Its not impossible because Eastern Championship Wrestling did it the same way and they need to take lessons from that.

Thats something I have never like about wrestling, it seems alot of the men doing it are idiots, boobs, or push overs.. It aint just about the here and now its about the future too, they need to think about that..
 
The ball's been dropped creatively for many months. The last legit angle I was into was when the original Nexus came about and destroyed the set and left Cena laying in the middle of the ring. It was amazing. Since then, nothing's came real close to it. And yes the overall talent pool is as good as it's been in years, but that doesn't mean it's as good as it has been overall. Daniel Bryan said himself that the WWE isn't 'wrestling'. Think about that. A major player in the WWE doesn't even consider what he's doing wrestling.

And don't get it twisted - I'm not a WWE hater. I enjoy wrestling and have enjoyed it for a long time, but I don't see the WWE taking the angles, storylines, and characters seriously anymore. Maybe once the Wyatt Family debuts and ends up shocking most of us, then I'll rethink my stance. But as far as the wrestling most of the world loves, the WWE's been decreasing it's focus little by little over the past few years.

Why is that that people who quote DB don't even understand what he was trying to say? The wrestling media grabbed onto that line but all he was trying to say was that the entertainment aspect is more important than the in-ring aspect. Something I happen to disagree with.

With that said, nothing you pointed out has anything to do with the actual in-ring product which I believe is now better than it's been in years. Your issue is with the "Entertainment" aspect so you should have just said that in the first place. If you need to, you may want to re-watch old episodes of RAW from the Attitude era which contained nothing but squash matches and "Dusty" finishes. A run in ended just about every episode. The weekly tv in-ring product is much better now. Even with lesser talent.
 
I would like to point out that WCW used a tried and true old school wrasslin' style, and damn near went out of business before turning to sports entertainment (and doing it better than their opposition) and hitting the freaking jackpot.

ROH is old school (well more Pro-Wrestling than anything else going around) and barely make enough money to keep their company afloat (sure they are a successful indy brand but no one is walking around with rollies and driving a benz).

The old school, Pro-Wrestling mentality is dead, but WWE didn't kill it. We did, the consumer did. Most consumers who are willing to pay for the product, don't care for that old school style. Sure to us hardcore fans, it's great, that's most of what we want to see, but to the common, everyday casual fan, that shit don't sell.

They want to see the Rock, they want to see Stone Cold, they want to see Undertakers, and Sports entertainment, because most casual fans seem to enjoy and be more willing to pay for vignettes, backstage crap and in ring interview then they are willing to pay for actual wrestling.

Pro-Wrestling died a long time ago, all hail Satan... I mean Sports Entertainment... I mean Satan...

Just My Opinion.
 
They have not "killed pro wrestling" in recent years. The WWE have evolved which is essential because otherwise the company would stagnate. Indeed, promoting movies, their app and social media is vital. They need to become even bigger in terms of revenue and status.

If someone is going to tell me that the quality of matches or superstar has fallen than I have to disagree. HOW MANY wrestlers in this current roster can we say that they are both great in the ring and on the mic. The WWE has an extremely talented group of superstars and is trying to move beyond where they currently are. Yes, there are flaws. Some of the actual writing and feuds are awful. There are weaknesses in parts of the tag and diva division but "pro wrestling" is still healthy as is the WWE.
 
I would like to point out that WCW used a tried and true old school wrasslin' style, and damn near went out of business before turning to sports entertainment (and doing it better than their opposition) and hitting the freaking jackpot.
Do you even know what WCW stands for? Thats how little I think you know about WCW. The reason there was a WCW is because Mid Atlantic got such good viewing rates it caught Ted Turner's eye from a business aspect.

The modern WCW collapsed because of being apart of a corporate behemoth that did not get down with wrestling in any aspect.

ROH might make more money when they get on a cable provider that isn't just in 6 states. When you see them on a national channel for all to see and the local stations everyone can just watch for free and people still flip the channel you might have something..

If you switched up on rasslin to get your sports entertainment fix thats all you bro..

Hell if WWE hadn't been the one to definitively expose kayfabe I would jad advised indys like ROH to just have legit matches and just draw from the general combat sport fan pool instead of the fools in the "IWC" and the WWE "Universe.."
 
The thing that pisses me off is that they extended RAW an hour and still refuse to let matches run long. Can't we get a half hour main event quality mach once in a while? Doesn't even have to be the main event.
 

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