George W. Bush

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What is Your Opinion on George W. Bush?

  • I love the man

  • He's done a decently good job

  • I'm Indifferent and/or Don't Care

  • He's done a bad job

  • The man is a traitor to the United States


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RIP Sgt. Michael Paranzino / RIP CM
What is your opinion on the current president of the USA, George W. Bush?

I for one believe the man is one of the most evil pieces of shit to ever enter politics and is directly responsible for the deaths of more then half a million people in the last couple years, not to mention running our economy into the ground, taking away habeas corpus (the right to a trial if you're imprisoned without charges), making torture legal, breaking the Geneva convention, leading his country into a war based on lies for absolutely no reason, and making it legal to spy on citizens and search them with no warrant or probable cause. IMO the man should be put to trial as a war criminal and traitor to the United States, and executed.

What do you guys think?
 
George Bush has been nothing but pure evil brought upon the good citizens of America. With all the facts you said the Xfear i agree were coming out of the Bush administration years worse then what when they came into office. The man is too self-centered to pull the troops out as he does not want admit that he had false information to invade Iraq and he was wrong. Worst part is were losing multiple lives everyday in Iraq yet the news doesn't even seem to care its like, "we lost 15 soldiers in Iraq today due to a car bomb...and in further news etc."

Its appalling what he has as he has taken America and made it one of the most hated counties in the world. He just pisses me off.
 
Life in a recession is glorious. I just thank my lucky stars now that I drive a f*cking Geo Prizm that gets great mileage. I remember the days when all I had to worry about was a president who got his knob polished in The White House. Those were the days.
 
why don't you have an option of the man is an absolute Idiot and wonder how he can put on his clothes correctly each morning?

That is actually my opinion of him just expanded out for randomness. I personnally don't like him for the fact that he doesn'tappear to know what direction, he is trying to go in, I saw an episode of the Daily show with John Stewart a couple of weeks ago, that compared first term Bush with second term Bush, he has contradicted himself in terms of what his plan in Iraq was. I am pretty ambivilant when it comes to the War in Iraq because the best outcome in the original plan even if it was a bogus reason was getting Saddam out of power, this was a good thing. I see the continued prescence of the US and British forces in Iraq is a result of the suicide bombers and terrorists, I am certain that by now if there were no security issues the Americans and British would have withdrawn. this is my opinion on Iraq. I have a thing gainst people failing to use proper grammer when they are speaking, which George does quite regularly.
 
I merged those two posts for ya mate, I was like "What?! Mancer just double posted?!" lol

I figured the traitor to America option was good enough for those who believe he's too stupid to dress himself, which I don't doubt.

Although it was damn good to get rid of Saddam...it truly was not necessary in any way. Iraq posed no threat to American safety whatsoever. If we love helping countries from horrible dictators explain why our biggest ally, Saudi Arabia, is the leader in human rights violations (second is Israel conveniently). Not to mention our love of installing dictators in foriegn countries such as Pol Pot, the Shahs of Iran, Chile, Colombia, etc etc etc. This is something I find amusing as well, that less people died in the 25 year reign of Saddam Hussein then have since the war began.

I love Stewart as well, there's a man like Keith Olbermann who actually knows whats going on in the world, and the best way to convey that message is through humor. In his interviews with his guests though he usually always becomes serious and talks serious issues. Last night was great, he made me think of something I never have...

Why do Bush and the rest of the conservatives think that as soon as we leave Iraq, the country is going to be taken over by Al Qaeda(who make up less then 7% of the insurgents) and descend into more chaos and a genocide? If the US military can't take control of the country what makes them think an army roughly 1/1000 the size of the US army can?

I count down the days until this man is finally gone. Hopefully in the future he will be arrested and executed for treason.

On that note, VOTE FOR RON PAUL. He's the only man that really cares where this country is headed..
 
I think we've been screwed the last two elections anyway. We should of had someone like John McCain run in 2000 and win, a very moderate individual.

I despise Al Gore. He spreads all this shita bout Global Warming, and I don't want to get started on that. All i know is in my anthorpological/archaeological studes is, if anyone has picked up a fucking history book, they realize that Global Warming is the biggest fucking scam going in the world today.

Then we have John Kerry, who is the same person as George Bush. Both well off that don't know their own ass from a hole in the ground.

I don't despise Bush, but I don't like the man either. I think the media in this country has a shit load to blame on themselves. 4 years ago when this all started they were all on the bandwagon to turn Iraq into a golf course. Hell, everyone was on board. Bush fabricated the reasoning, and we all know, he was just finishing Daddy's war. Bush's approval rating at the time was insane, wasn't it close to the 90% range. The man could do no wrong.

The fact of the matter is, we're stuck in Iraq, and we're stuck there for a long time. I'm in the minority that feel that if we pull out, we'll be back there in 20 years cleaning the mess up later. We abandoned the Iraqi's after the first Gulf war, and we left the people that supported the US to the hands of Saddam, and the people that were are allies despise us now, and justifiably so. We screwed them 15 years ago.

I'll get my heat shield on now, because the flames are coming. Last time I checked, no one has held a gun to any of the troops in the US Army right now. This is a volunteer service. Everyone that is there is because they signed on the line and volunteered to go. Every death is tragic, but come on, 3500 US deaths in 4 years is minimal in the grand scheme of war. This country couldn't stomach another World War, were you had thousands dying a day.

The simple thing is, the people in the middle east, and this will sound extremly racist, and I get it, have been killing one another for centuries. It is the way of life they are used to. The second we took Saddam out, we created a power vaccuum that the next Dictator asshole is trying to fill. And when that guy gets in power, he's going to kill thousands of more. It's a propaganda war we are fighting now. If the United States leaves, we don't only abandon people that believe in us over there, we give terrorist a huge propaganda victory.

Going to Iraq was a mistake, but leaving now would only be worse. Bush is an idiot, no doubt, but him retaliating in Afghanistan is justifiable, not in Iraq. This whole damn problem would have been adverted if the previous administration took care of the Bin Laden problem in 98, instead of worrying about getting his dick sucked in office. The response to blowing up two American embassies was throwing a couple missiles blindly into the desert.

I see Bush in two lights, in his first Term, he'll go down as one of the most popular presidents ever. No doubt after 9/11, he had the solid support of the country, and he did no wrong. It was cheap heat like a Mick Foley pop, anyone that had his position would be known for that. Bush's second term is going to be remembered as a man that just didn't have any direction and chased his own tail for four years.
 
I'm in disbelief....did you really just contrast George Bush to Mick Foley?! lol

I understand completely where your coming from Shocky, I just disagree is all. Considering we're friends I'm sure we can have an intelligent discussion about the matter. I just don't understand the logic that yes the reasons for war were wrong but we need to stay there. To me that's like punching somebody in the face for no reason and saying yes you're right I'm sorry I did that I shouldn't have, and then you continue punching them in the face. Not a very good analogy, I know, but you get the gist of the idea. I mean yes, Saddam was terrible, that's not up for debate, but there have been much, much worse dictators in history that we not only didn't do anything about, but put in power and supported fully(financially as well). Look at the US with Cambodia in the 70s when Pol Pot, the Cambodian maniac was killing two million of his own people through ethnic genocide and god knows how many more from starving his country. And we not only put the guy in power we supported him fully, lobbying year after year to put Cambodia on the UN permanently.

The thing is to me, and I don't mean to sound cruel, but there is nothing we can do to help the people in Iraq or the Middle East. They do not want our help and the few that do end up getting killed in some way usually. If anything our troops should be in Darfur, Sudan right now stopping that genocide, another thing we've been completely ambivilent towards even after all of the lessons that the world thought had been learned from Rwanda. That is a situation we could stop, by simply gutting out the tribal Islamic militias that are committing the genocide.

And once again I don't want to sound hostile, but you're completely ignoring the death toll in Iraq for the Iraqis, not just the US troops. People are people to me no matter what badge they wear or what color their skin is, all equal. Excess of 650,000 dead Iraqis in the last four years alone from this war. Compare that to the 700,000 dead under Saddam over a period of 25 years.

That's a rate of 28,000 killed per year under Saddam, and 162,500 killed per year since the Iraq war began. That is astoundingly high. The sad fact is, that Iraq was a much safer nation for it's citizens under Saddam Hussein then it is now that our occupation has created a civil war and has given Al-Qaeda a reason to go to Iraq in the first place.

When one admits a mistake, you can't just continue doing that mistake over and over and over and over without people demanding change. Once again all I will say is if you've never heard of the man, look into Senator Ron Paul, who was the winner of the recent Republican debates as shown by every single online poll out there. He's the last hope I fear for our great country after such mistakes in the past ever since JFK was assassinated, from the Vietnam War to selling Iraq all of the weapons they used on their own people, to sitting by and twiddling our thumbs while 10 people were killed on average every minute in Rwanda in 1994, to deciding to once again play the World Police role (even after the monumental failure it provided us with last time we tried to play World Police--Vietnam) and start an entirely new conflict to go along with the Palestinian-Israeli one as well. Don't hold your breath for either of them to end anytime soon.
 
I'm in agreement, the reasons we are there are wrong, but you've said it yourself, 650,000 people dead. If we leave, there isn't a centralized government strong enough to keep the killings from continuing.

Imagine if we weren't there, how bad it would get. If they are killing each other with our presence there at that high of a rate, it could grow exponentially. The death toll is not United States related, it's Iraqi vs. Iraqi violence. The one good thing, I guess you could say about Saddam, is that he scared the shit out of everyone enough to make them live together.

The big thing I'm worried about in Iraq if we leave, is just how many more people are going to die in the power struggle to reach the top. No one gives a damn or respects the Iraqi government over there anyway. Part of me says, let them kill each other, it's not our problem, but that's wrong imo. I just think that we started the mess in Iraq, in some way shape or form, we have to be responsible for who dies over there, and putting an end to this war. We made the mess, I think we have to clean it up.

The main problem is, and you eluded to it, the Middle east is used to blowing the shit out of each other. The reason why you don't have European countries getting up in arms, is because they've lost everything that they had. WW2 wiped out most of Europe, and no one wants to lose that again. The Mid-East has never been glorious like that. Most of the people have been poverty stricken, and lived under strict religous doctrine and dictator like rule. It's a bad situation all together, you don't want to leave, because the killing is just going to get insane, but on the other hand, they're going to do it to each other even with we're there or not.
 
This all goes back to 1992. His daddy ignored Iraq and then tried to tell everyone that we were alright. To sort of get off subject, 9/11 was always going to happen. We didn't know what day, or when it would happen. Nobody wants a WW3 and that's for damn sure. Another World War could truly wipe out half of the World. George Bush isn't that stupid....is he?

It's simple that George Bush has made plenty of mistakes. More than an average President. Obviously, our last president didn't have to ''fuck around'' with Iraq or Terrorists, he was perfectly fine in his comfty little chair. But seriously, are we kidding ourselves? No offense to any other country, but I don't think anybody is seriously close to America when it comes to World Leadership. The Soviet Union tried to de-throne us, and look where they ended up.

I dislike George Bush, and his ways. Sure, at first, I was with him. But wasn't everybody? Isn't everybody supposed to be for war when you attack the two biggest buildings in your country? Bush was in a very sweet spot in 2001 and 2002. He had the country's support and a huge army compared to Iraq. Mission one? Find Osama Bin Laden. We couldn't find him. So what do we do? We go after the 2nd biggest terrorist as a cover-up. The terms I put it in may be a bit harsh considering that Huessin killed all those people. What he did was cruel, and he should've paid. But Bush doesn't realize that he's doing the same thing. Sure, he can say he's doing it for the right reasons, but is there a correct reason to kill somebody? I don't think so.

The United States are arguably on top of the World right now. Nobody holds any other country in such a high respect, no matter who our President is. Nobody leaves the US to go back to Sweden. But do people leave Sweden to come to the US? Yes. It's that simple IMO. People leave their countries to come to ours. Granted, Bush hasn't exactly been a role model, but what are the chances that the US Army would all of a sudden start losing? What are the chances? With a whole bunch of suicide bombers, it's not like they're going to get very far.

In a country with over 300 million people, and another country with about 10 million people, which will win? Especially after most of those 10 million are suicide bombers. I respect that they would die for their country, but to kill others to do it is just plain wrong. George Bush is not as good as his father, not that his father was great either. Bush is an idiot, and has almost died already. I'm sure Americans wouldn't mind if we could take back a few votes. I know I wouldn't.
 
Im going to be controversial her and say that the war on terror is WW4. Even going against Einstein's quote of "I know not what weapons WW3 will be fought with, But WW4 will be fought with sticks and stones." My view as well as some prominant Historians (which I am not.....Yet) is that the Cold War was World War III, this would make the War on Terror, World War IV.

But I have made my opinion on Bush known, I don't even live in the States so I can't say from experince what it is like to live under an administration like that. I can however look at it objectively from outside. But remember the question that George Bush asked that seems apt on these boards because I am wondering with the posting on this board by some people "Is our Children Learning?" Is they indeed learning.
 
Very good points as usual from Ace and Shadow, I'm glad we can actually have a discussion on politics online without it resorting to bickering and name calling.

I'd have to disagree on a few of your points though Ace. I for one was never with Bush, from the day he announced his candidacy in 99/2000. Alot of people supported him because of what he said on his campaign trail, about making new jobs and running this country like a business. But not many people actually took the time to do some research into the man's past to see that at best he was a homicidal imbecile. Be it his adamnant support of executing mentally challenged people when he was governor of Texas, the fact that Texas executed more people under his watch then in it's history, or the fact that the Bush family has deep, deep ties to the Saudi royal family, he had already shown his true colors if people had taken the time to look into it. When 9/11 happened I too was completely in shock and absolutely thirsty for revenge. Our invasion of Afghanistan(though we did bomb many civilian towns in the beginning if you watched the nightvision CNN live "America Bombs the Shit out of Afghanistan" show)was something that I for one did support. Because the Taliban had been involved in 9/11, and had been huge supporters of Al-Qaeda(though once again all I can say is who was it that trained, funded, armed and kept in existence Al-Qaeda? The US).

I'd also have to HUGELY disagree about the "suicide bombers" not having a chance against our army. People seem to have a selective memory, and forget another war that was under very similiar circumstances in which the enemy army also used suicide bombing, car bombs and guerilla/terrorist tactics: Vietnam. And who won that one? We got the shit kicked out of us last time we decided to meddle in another country that hadn't threatened us in any way and try to take it over for the "good of the people". There is no military analyst, professor, or any military commander that honestly thinks we can win this war. We had a chance of victory in the beginning after Saddam fell, but we fucked that chance up royally by letting Shia and Shiite clerics take control of local militias, thus leading to the current civil war between the two sects. I won't even get into the reasons for war which were all lies and the fact that this war is one of the biggest mistakes in US history.

I'm not going to get into my beliefs and the factual scientific evidence of 9/11, because more then likely I'll be called a conspiracy theory nutwing. The only thing I'll say on the matter is look into World Trade Center building 7. It's collapse was impossible. Also take into account no other steel structured buildings have ever collapsed in the history of architecture from fire alone.

So thats my morning rant. :D
 
The only thing I'll say on the matter is look into World Trade Center building 7. It's collapse was impossible. Also take into account no other steel structured buildings have ever collapsed in the history of architecture from fire alone.

So thats my morning rant. :D

A fire yes, but 10,000 galls of jet feul burning on the corners of a building, no. I hate getting into 9/11 conspiracy theories, because thats all they are, theories. Anything you read now to or for Conspiracy theories is completly slanted and trying to prove a point one way or another, much like global warming.
 
C'mon now Shocky, no need to get hostile about something I believe in. The fact of the matter is that most groups that are saying these so called "conspiracy theories" have no political agenda and are comprised of dozens, sometimes even hundreds of scientists, professors and experts on things such as building architecture, steel structures, etc.

A great example would be the following website Scholars for 9/11 Truth

The fact of the matter is that the jet fuel, all 10,000 gallons of it, has a maximum burning temperature of 1700 degrees Fahrenheit. Throw in all of the desks, carpets, furniture, paper and any other fuel source could've added another three hundred degrees Fahrenheit max. That's 2000 degrees Fahrenheit.

Steel however only begins to bend and deteriorate at a temperate of 2800 degrees Fahrenheit. Throw in the fact that molten metal and thermate (a chemical used exclusively to destroy steel) were found in the debris, it makes hard to believe a report that says the exact opposite.

Unfortunately most people just dismiss any sort of alternative theory as being from insane people when many times its from the same people who've proven time and time again that these "conspiracy" theories were very true. Be it the Gulf of Tonkin false fire incident that spurred the Vietnam war, the JFK assassination, or the American led coups in countries such as Chile and Iran among others.

And I'd have to ask mate, why do you think global warming is a scam? I'm not very well read into global warming to be honest, but from everything I have read and seen about the topic it seems as though almost all scientists and professors agree that global warming is real and a large threat. Plus I mean what happened to all the lakes that are disappearing and species of animals that are going extinct? Once again I don't know alot about global warming, so perhaps you could give me some links or something?
 
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I think that about sums it up
 
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Not hostile at all, computer doesn't show emotion, so sorry about that. The only thing I'll say on the 9/11 conspiracy is this. If George Bush pulled that off, then he is the most brilliant mother fucker alive. I honestly wouldn't say another bad thing about the man, because I would be afraid to disapear and never be seen again. I'm all for conspiracy theories, but saying that Bush was responsible for 9/11 gives him godlike powers. That's some Emperor Palpatine shit if he pulled it off.

I'll get a whole thing on Global Warming later. I'll pull up some websites, but the main thing is this, the earth goes through natural warming and cooling cycles. There have been multiple ice ages and dry spells. We are currently in a warming age, which has nothing to do with pollutants put into the air. It's a naturally occuring event. Global Warming is this decades hole in the Ozone Layer. The hole that was supposed to get bigger and cause all sorts of stuff, but it actually has gotten smaller.

An inconvenient Truth may have been the worst, most slanted movie ever. People are worried about Iceshelves being melted after they were frozen for 45,000 years. So where was that ice the other 4,999,955,000 years in the history of the planet. An ice shelf melting is a hiccup in the history of the earth. The pseudo-scientist that are studying it are being funded by people that want global warming to be true. Don't get me wrong, a green earth with us using more reliable and reusable means of energy is great, but Global Warming is just propaganda to further expediate that process.
 
I'm doing my dissertation at university on this...the following makes some interesting reading...

do? For Bush, there were
two fundamental things that had to happen. First the US had to be strong. America had looked
weak in the 1990s. We did not finish the war against Saddam or remove Saddam. I was in the
government then and I thought it was a big mistake at the time and morally problematic too, to
encourage the rebellion and then just leave them there. We did not remove Saddam, however,
for various reasons having to do with UN authorization, and perhaps having to do with our
belief that a weak Saddam would encourage stability in the region. In retrospect, however,
it looked weak; you are a dictator, you invade your neighbor, you kill and slaughter lots of
people; you get kicked out – and you are still in power. What kind of a lesson is that?

In the Balkans, Milosevic took that lesson right away – that you could get away with ethnic
cleansing and murder, and we didn’t do anything there in 1991 or 1992 either. In Somalia, we
were kicked out by a small group of terrorists and thugs. In October 1993, we retreated aer
suffering 19 casualties. Then, of course, we did not intervene in Rwanda in 1994, and we did
nothing about the terrorist takeover of Afghanistan in 1996. We threatened Saddam in 1998 but
we did not move against him; we were threatened in Africa by Al-Qaeda in 1998, and the USS
Cole was aacked in Yemen in October 2000. We carried out a few lile air strikes aer some
of those aacks, but basically we did not look powerful. As Osama Bin-Laden said in one of
his video-tapes, “The US is a weak horse, not a strong horse.” He was wrong, thank God, and
the US turned out to be a stronger horse than he expected and the American people turned out
to be willing to pay the price of going aer terror, of going into Afghanistan and going into
Iraq.
Bush’s first decision was that the US had to be strong. The mistake of the 1990s, with all the
talk about US Wilsonianism, American empire, American overreaching and the mistakes aer
the end of the Cold War, was not that America was too strong, or intervened too much or too
early, or that America imposed democracy all over the world. The mistake of the 1990s was
that we did nothing in the Balkans, we did nothing in Rwanda, we were late in dealing with
terror, and we did not remove Saddam. Bush decided we would be strong, and we would act
more quickly and we would not continue to let it appear we were weak and unable to act.
Secondly, Bush decided we needed to change our strategy in the Middle East; we needed
to be serious about promoting democracy, about insisting that regimes not tolerate terror. We
all knew this to be a very complicated process which could not happen overnight, but we
took heart from what happened in Asia, where people said Taiwan, Korea and the Philippines
were not ready for democracy, and from what happened in Eastern Europe where people
said Poland, Slovakia, Romania and countries like that were not ready for democracy; and
Bush thought it was reasonable to begin pushing toward liberal democracy in the Middle
East: if not now – when? That does not mean that Bush is a Wilsonian who thinks he can snap
his fingers and transform the whole region and ignore its culture and history. But what was
the alternative – to bet on the next generation of Mubaraks, or the next generation of Assads
and prop up these dictators who were increasingly weak and increasingly erratic, and whose
countries were increasingly becoming hotbeds of anti-Americanism and extremism, either
because the dictators fostered it or because, by reacting to the dictators, popular movements
became anti-American because America looked as though it was propping up dictators?"

Quite interesting really

And I totally do not believe that 9-11 was a conspiracy theory at all.
 
You fail to recognize the fact the US has always propped up and supported dictators 100% as long as they're doing what the US wants. People seem to forget that we were the ones who funded, armed and built Al-Qaeda into what it is today, we were the ones who sold all of the weapons to Iraq that we were so "horrified" when they had used them, we were the ones that sold weapons to Iran and Iraq and gave eachother satellite maps of where eachother's bases were in the Iran-Iraq war that killed millions. We're the ones that imposed the Shah's and dictators in Iran and Iraq in the first place that killed so many of their own people leading to the people wanting any change, even if it was for a group like the Taliban of Khomeini in Iran. We're the ones that overthrew democratically elected governments in places like Chile and Cambodia and installed brutal dictators in their place that went on to kill thousands. We're the ones that funded all of the Sandinistas and drug cartels in Colombia in order for them to fight the war on socialism in S. America as well as abroad.

If not now push towards democracy in the middle east when? When they're ready, that's when! That's one of the most ridiculious things I've ever read. The fact is George W. Bush DID ignore all of the region's history and what the people would do. He didn't do shit when Shiite and Sunni militias started arming themselves around insane clerics, he was too focused on cracking down on the minute number of Al-Qaeda in Iraq (roughly 5% of all fighters in Iraq are Al-Qaeda), who only came to Iraq after we did. This idea that we had to go over there and help out Saddam's people is bullshit. We've proven we could care less when nations of people are slaughtered if theres no money in it for us. No, but theres a ton of money in Iraq. Be it the oil pumped into Israel everyday or the military industrial business thriving at the highest in all of history, many people are making millions and millions of dollars off of this war.

People say they don't believe in conspiracy theories, but if you believe that 9/11 was done by Al-Qaeda alone and that the buildings collapsed just from those two planes you're buying into a conspiracy theory. The definition of a conspiracy is a plan made to do something by more then one people before it happens. Under any definition it was a conspiracy.

Trust me Shock, I'm not saying that Bush was the emperor who orchestrated this whole thing, he is far too stupid to pull off something like this. But has he ever really been the man behind all of his words? Bush is nothing but a puppet for men like his father, Karl Rove, Cheney, and at one time Rumsfeld before he was exposed to the point where if he didn't retire there'd be investigations into him. People seem to think it would take an alliance of hundreds of people to pull this off, but its really not true. All it would take is people in high positions of authority to make contact with some foriegn agents to bring together this.

Besides, what was the direct aftermath of 9/11 and Afghanistan? Iraq. What did Iraq have to do with 9/11? Nothing at all. What did Iraq have to do with Al-Qaeda? Nothing at all. Saddam and Osama hated eachother with a passion, and Saddam was far too power hungry and crazy to ever let a terrorist group like Al-Qaeda take a foothold into his country and usurp even the tiniest amount of power from him. He was like Stalin in that sense.

People believe that governments wouldn't do this to their own people, but they have many times in the past. Search for example for a plan devised by the CIA in the 1970s that has been released into the national archives after its time of statues ended, called "Operation Northwoods". In it a plan is outlined to have MAJOR attacks on US cities targeting civilians with things such as planes and bombs and to blame the attacks on Cuba in order to justify another invasion of the country. It's one of the oldest tricks in the book. You attack yourself and blame it on someone else to rally support and justify any action you take against them. Same thing happened when US ships destroyed other US ships in the Gulf of Tonkin, spurring the Vietnam war, same thing happened when Hitler burned down the German parliament building and blamed it on the communists(the "terrorists" of the old days), thus leading to his country suspending civil liberties and giving all power to him, and we all know where those two incidents led.

Another example: Rwanda in 1994, when the Tutsi rebels and Hutu president of the country signed a peace treaty, and when the President was flying back to Rwanda, the Rwandan military shot his plane down and blamed it on the Tutsis, thus spurring the genocide of 2 million people in 100 days.

People dismiss alternative theories so easily without even doing any unbiased research. Think for yourselves people! Go out there and read both sides of every argument and decide for yourself what makes more sense: Science and Physics, or a 9/11 Report that was funded with 1/5 of the amount of money that was spent to investigate whether Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky ever had sex.
 
It was always Bushes aim to oust sadam hussein, read the project for the new american century. However I do not belive 9-11 was by anyone other than Al Qaeda check out debunking 9-11 and I want to say I buy into a lot of conspiracy theories (MLK, the fake moon landings among others) but I in no way believe that 9-11 is one
 
I've read Debunking 9/11, the Popular Mechanics book and I've read the article in the magazine, both are nothing but lies and a biased hit piece. Check out this website to see exactly how full of shit that book and that magazine is:
Debunking Popular Mechanics

The book and the magazine address only the theories that even serious 9/11 Truth advocates know are full of shit, such as the pods on the planes and the remote control boeing theories, despite the fact that those theories have been proven wrong countless times by 9/11 Truth groups themselves. The book and magazine cherry pick which theories to address, and then completely lie about some of it.

If you believe that it was always Bush's aim to oust Saddam Hussein, wouldn't the most oppurtune way be to rally the country around him to support the invasion? And what would give them unrelenting support? Why an attack on the USA would of course.

I don't want to offend anyone, but if you look objectively and seriously into the matter, you'll find nine out of ten times that these "conspiracy" theories are actually logic, science, and the laws of physics. To put it simply, two planes could not take down those two towers just by crashing into them. End of story, it is physically impossible.
 
It has been proven that it was a communist that burnt down the Riechstag, not the NSDAP. But all the 9-11 stuff is Conspiracy theories, it is possible for a building to collapse after a fire of the kind that buckles steel. I fall into the category of it is Osama that did the World Trade Center, on the other hand it is completely possible for the administration to have done the Pentagon. But I thought this was a discussion about George Bush not 9/11 conspiracies.
 
True but when do we ever have a politcal debate on these forums seriously? I think we can let a bit of off topic posting slide in this thread personally.

Where has it been proven that a communist burnt down the Reichstag? Everything I've ever read on the subject has always said that it was simply a false flag attack by the Nazis and they blamed it on the communist Van der Lubbe.

Anyways, it really isn't possible though Shadowmance, no other steel structured building in the history of Earth has ever collapsed from fire damage, even buildings who came under much MUCH worse fire damage then the towers did on 9/11. Take into account also the fact that the twin towers engineers who devised the building built it specifically to withstand fire damage to the structure of the building as well.

I just don't understand how people think that physics just decided to take the day off on 9/11 and have the buildings collapse when it was clearly impossible. I won't even get into WTC building 7 which collapsed despite having incredibly dismal and minimal fire damage to it(the building was three blocks away from the towers).

Anyways, that's the last I'll post on the topic because either A: People are going to call me crazy and ignore all logical evidence or B: Flame the hell out of me.

Back to Bush though I guess...I've really said all I can I think on YouTube, the arguments there are ridiculious. If the world were just he'd be sitting in a jail cell awaiting a hanging just like Saddam did.
 
Its proven by some Historians, I heard it in my German History lecture this semester. But I never said that a steel girder melted but it buckled it doesn't matter if it didn't melt if it buckles enough due to the Heat, and the weight of the building above it It will most likely fall. I can't be bothered asking my engineering mates about it right now, but I am pretty certain that thats what happened. Im not going against the laws of Physics but im going on my knowledge of how stuff reacts to heat and pressure.
 
Yeah but why would the steel buckle from fire? They stood fine after the initial crashes from the planes. Steel doesn't buckle under fire, and even if it did the steel beams were easily strong enough to withstand any fire "buckling". Besides, if thats what happened then why is that to this day the gov still says that the towers collapsed from melted steel beams.

Also even if the beams had buckled and fallen, the building would of collapsed outwards, not inwards in the same exact same fashion that buildings being demolished do.
 
I'm sick of George Bush. I've had it up to here with his whole way of thinking. This is not the way to attack terrorists. Do you honestly think that everyone is going to stop bombing each other because Saddam died? That was one of many terrorists in the World. Sure, he was one of the most dangerous, but people are still dying. I hate how the US just HAS to be the good country. If they see a small country getting bombed, they have to help. It's B.S. Why the US? Why not the UK? or Canada? or Mexico? It has to be the fucking United States.

It's not our fault is it? We have to protect Canada in all their wars. Mexico probably still dislikes us because we took Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California, and all those other states. Everyone else is either an ally that doesn't want to interfere, or an Enemy. It's a f***ing disgrace too. Bush is stupid enough to fall for it. I don't think anybody in America cared about how our country was pertained in the 90's. I honestly thought that the 90's were when we put away the Soviet Union for good. War is always going to be here. It'll never be peaceful for long.

I'm also tired of the goddamn 9/11 Conspiracy talk. Why would someone purposely drive two planes into the Twin Towers? It makes no sense and there's no purpose. I doubt it was Bush. Unless, of course, he wants to kill thousands of his people. I really believe that 9/11 was planned for a long, long time. The government had a long time to prepare too. The government failed IMO. George Bush was the wrong President to lead the country after all this happened. Rudy Guiliani did more for the US than George Bush. I haven't liked Bush since 03. The Hurricane Katrina thing made it obvious to me that he doesn't know what the hell he's doing. He's not an OK President either. He hasn't improved, and he hasn't done anything to help the country positively.

George Bush should be impeached. Bring back Clinton. Going back to Vietnam and Korea, we had no business going there. Why did we have to help out? It's total bullshit. Especially because nobody else helped out in a major way. At a time where we need reinforcements, and we're getting our asses handed to us, nobody helps out, but when they need help, we HAVE to help. It sucks being the leading country of the World.
 
I don't think anyone is bashing anyone on here yet. It could break down into it, but it seems most of the kids stay in the wrestling forums and stay out of this side of the forum.

There's no telling what kinda damage was done to the building. You have to consider the size and the speed of the planes that hit. How many floors were taken out. The Second plane smashed into the corner of the building. I don't care how strong the building is, the building was going down. Like shadow said, the fire didn't have to be strong enough to melt a steal beam, just strong enough to weak it. The second one of those beams go, the strength of the whole building is compromised. You have to consider, maybe four floors of the building were taken out in the initial hit. You had 10,000 gallons of jet fuel burning, theres no telling how many floors starting collapsing on each other internally. The buildings did fall outwards. It wasn't a perfect implosion like a controlled implosion.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, I simply don't buy a 9/11 Conspiracy. Bin Laden has targeted the WTC for a long time, he was hell bent on bringing those towers down. I will listen to the Pentagon Missile theory though, that seems to make more sense then the WTC. I imagine if you ask more people in the midwest, like me, we don't by the Conspiracy theory, but if you go more to the coasts, more people except it. It's just the way that we are raised. It's more conservative here, so therefore, we tend to think more conservatively. X you live in the Northeast, which is very liberal, so you'll have access and more exposure to things that are anti-bush. It's not saying either of us are right, we're both just products of were we live.

Bottomline, Bush is a monumental failure. He has failed on No Child Left Behind, He has Failed on making stricter Border/Immigration laws. No Child Left behind is good in theory, but how they hell do you take funding away from schools for undereducated children, because they didn't pass test. So you're going to take away money from already underfunded schools, and then expect the schools to get better? What kinda ass backwards thinking is that.

Then you have immigration. We are going to give amnesty to 12 million illegals in this country. How the hell does that work? I'm sorry, my great grandparents came here the right way. They got in a line, and waited until they were allowed into the country. The United States already lets more people legally into this country then all of the other countries in the world combined, yet if we don't grant amnesty to 12 million illegals, then we are wrong. I don't get it. People want to complain about illegal children being left here without their parents, I'm sorry, but the parents shouldn't have been here to begin with. If they werent here, then you wouldn't have any children born here, simple as that. The United States is very tolerant towards are Southern Neighbor, moreso tolerant that what Mexico is to people from Guatemala trying to go North into their country. Bush has failed on getting anything solidly done on this.

I'll give Bush a break on Hurricane Katrina. He has gotten a ton of shit for something he didn't deserve. 1. The city is built below sea level, so the citizens there are morons to begin with. I'm sorry, but i don't feel to comfortable looking up at water. 2. People had a week to get the hell out of the way, and they refused to go. They let their personal greed and worried too much about superficial stuff, and wanted to stay with their belongings. I will give a break to the people in the Superdome, they thought it was a safe place, and it ended up not being that. 3. The Hurricane was the size of the Gulf of Mexico, and I remember 20 years ago hearing about the Levees in New Orleans couldn't handle a Hurricane above Category 3. This was a category 5 Hurricane at one time, and people still didn't live. The Military had to be evacuated out of the immediate storm area, so of course it was going to take time for the military to get back to the city. The simple and easy solution to the New Orleans/Katrina situation was, get the fuck out of the city. Listen to people when they tell you to leave. Don't Stay. Katrina was not Bush's fault.
 
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