Fortune vs EV2.0 and Hogan - who exactly are we meant to cheer for?

[shattered dreams]

The characters are muddled at the top and it stops you making a connection with them to the point you'd invest emotionally in the product and thus results in less viewership, as is the case, backed by the numbers (that'd be a FACT as Bischoff would say). So because TNA can't work out who they should lean the fans towards cheering, that means I'm incapable of thinking for myself, niiiiiiiiice.

You continue to make the error of assuming TNA wants the situation at the top to be crystal clear. They do not. You continue to assume that you know more than those booking the show, you do not. You are blatantly saying if they do not make it obvious who to cheer for you cannot chose one, that sure sounds like you cannot make up your own mind to me. I was not trying to be insulting. Just stating the fact. What is interesting about this story is that people will be able to invest emotionally on either side depending on their preferences. Others will start of somewhat neutral and pick a side as the story develops. Whenever things are too clear, it is too predictable and the product suffers.

Austin came out, posed for the fans, led them in chants, lived out everyones dream of beating their boss up because he pisses him off and to hell with the consequences, yeah, I'd say he was a pretty clear-cut face. Maybe not in the classic Hogan sense of the word, but as clear-cut a face as you can get in a period where cursing and the like were king.

Yep, Austin came out flipped everyone off and hit his finisher on other faces randomly at will while being practically incapable of creating any teamwork with anyone. Sure that is a clear face. Why Austin got so big is that he was the evolution of the face role. It was something fresh from the "clear-cut babyfaces" of the past. That is why it worked.

 

[RD_21]

You continue to make the error of assuming TNA wants the situation at the top to be crystal clear. They do not. You continue to assume that you know more than those booking the show, you do not. You are blatantly saying if they do not make it obvious who to cheer for you cannot chose one, that sure sounds like you cannot make up your own mind to me. I was not trying to be insulting. Just stating the fact. What is interesting about this story is that people will be able to invest emotionally on either side depending on their preferences. Others will start of somewhat neutral and pick a side as the story develops. Whenever things are too clear, it is too predictable and the product suffers.

And you make the error of assuming that we care what TNA wants, we are talking about what WE want here. You see it's a PROVEN formula and it always worked like that even in movies, you need a bad guy for people to hate and boo so you can rally behind the face that will kick his ass and shut his mouth, thus creating an emotional investment by your fans and followers. Then you have your big face or faces that people really like and want to see wins.

I know that TNA may be going for the everything is grey, pick a side and chose who you side and having a split audience could work for TNA but we all know that they don't have that luxury in the Impact zone. They have the tourist that go watch a free wrestling show and you have those smarks that chant for EV 2.0 and then cheer for Fortune who ambush them. If you could get enough people invested in your product then the smark in the front row wouldn't even be that big of a deal but now you have people who don't care about the product that much and it hurt the overall presentation on TV. If you want to break the 1.0 in ratings you need to have stories that people can relate to and invest their emotions and time in.

Yep, Austin came out flipped everyone off and hit his finisher on other faces randomly at will while being practically incapable of creating any teamwork with anyone. Sure that is a clear face. Why Austin got so big is that he was the evolution of the face role. It was something fresh from the "clear-cut babyfaces" of the past. That is why it worked.

Austin was still a clear cut face. When you have Stone Cold stun the faces it was ok because of two reason, it fitted his character and he was the #1 face, but if the face Rock was attacking him it was more touchy. Like if Cena attack Orton he would get boo because it doesn't fit his character, but Orton can RKO the shit out of who he wants. I think you are confusing the character with the reaction he get, a face can have a bordeline heel character and still be a clear cut face in term of reaction he is getting and the way he is portrayed in the storyline.

 

[CyDeez]

Yeah it's pretty contradictory and funny.

In the big picture of it all...

EV 2.0 guys like Raven, Dreamer, Foley, Sabu....

Ok the whole damn crew except for RVD and probably Team 3-D are washed up. MUCH MUCH more washed up then someone like Sting is. Nash is basically done compared to his earlier days, even his earlier days in TNA. But that being said, if I had to choose, I would rather watch Sting, Nash and guys they are calling old at the moment. Then to watch Raven, Dreamer, and Sabu in their fucking primes!

If anything Ev 2.0 is getting in the way of Fortune! Fortune is a group of up and comers. They will now defend their company, and defend their spot in the company, against guys that haven't really ever been Main Stream Relevant! And are trying to get a final moment in the sun! If you can count being looked at as riff raffs and punks, as being a shining moment.

But it just all feels backwards. I will 100% be behind Fortune, against EV 2.0. I wouldn't mind Fortune eventually being known as the guys who got rid of the EV 2.0 guys.

 

[shattered dreams]

And you make the error of assuming that we care what TNA wants, we are talking about what WE want here. You see it's a PROVEN formula and it always worked like that even in movies, you need a bad guy for people to hate and boo so you can rally behind the face that will kick his ass and shut his mouth, thus creating an emotional investment by your fans and followers. Then you have your big face or faces that people really like and want to see wins.

Why should TNA book their product to the likings of people who do not like TNA? If it is so proven then how did it happen that the best match in WWE in a long time happened in a match where the audience did not have a clear person to cheer and boo. In fact the same match with the same "issue" headlined wrestlemania this year.

Austin was still a clear cut face. When you have Stone Cold stun the faces it was ok because of two reason, it fitted his character and he was the #1 face, but if the face Rock was attacking him it was more touchy. Like if Cena attack Orton he would get boo because it doesn't fit his character, but Orton can RKO the shit out of who he wants. I think you are confusing the character with the reaction he get, a face can have a bordeline heel character and still be a clear cut face in term of reaction he is getting and the way he is portrayed in the storyline.

Actually I think you are confusing reaction with someone being a clear-cut whatever. To me the description is about the type of character they portray not the crowd reaction. Was Cena suddenly a heel and HHH a face just because the crowd was cheering opposite? No. Clear-cut means the character fits the mold. Austin did not fit the mold. He got the reaction but his character was not a "clear-cut" face as you admit here. Stone Cold was the anti-hero and people really got into it and they made him more and more of a faceish in storylines. Somewhat ironic to think about if stone cold was coming up now in tna you would be making a thread chastising the fans for cheering him and the management for booking that way. The mold still works but variety is more key than ever. Only telling stories one way is a great way to fail IMO.

 

[aphazel1]

No, I do not see the current EV2/Fortune storyline as flawed. I'm less worried about ridiculously narrow sets of boundaries on what a storyline "should or should not be." I'm more concerned with how it is....and damnit I've enjoyed how the story has unraveled so far. I like the shades of grey & the rapidly changing scenarios put on by TNA. The fact that there are a bit of good & evil in each group is far more entertaining....not to mention the suspense of a greater purpose that Tommy Dreamer keeps mentioning....Narrow dichotomies like "good guys & bad guys" were great in the 80's, but I like something a bit different.....It seems like there is still a lot of stuff still to learn about this one, I think I'll just sit back & enjoy the ride.

 

[hatehabsforever]

Simple fact of the matter is, I'm not sure even the people at TNA know who we are "supposed" to cheer for. As I see it, it is typical incoherent TNA booking. Put together a bunch of guys, a bunch of factions, several convoluted illogical storylines, throw in a false surprise or two, and see what sticks. If people cheer for the EV2.0 faction, let's run with it (at least for this week). If they instead get behind Fourtune, hell, let's run with this instead. Young guys, old guys, TNA originals or WWE cast-offs, let's put it all out there and see what catches on. If something catches on immediately, all steam ahead. If not, never mind patience or storyline progression, let's just shuffle the cards and start over. And over. And over again.

Classic TNA1 01.

 

[RD_21]

Why should TNA book their product to the likings of people who do not like TNA? If it is so proven then how did it happen that the best match in WWE in a long time happened in a match where the audience did not have a clear person to cheer and boo. In fact the same match with the same "issue" headlined wrestlemania this year.

Yeah but if you book only for the people who like your product you can't grow and reach people who don't like it and you are stuck in a niche.

Sure Taker vs HBK was great but that was one match not the whole federation, you have to admit that because of the smark there's not one TRUE face in the company that generates passion of the fan and make them want to see him win, just like there's not one TRUE heel that people hate except if it has to do with his sexual orientation.

You can have tweener but your whole federation can't be made of tweener or you will fail to generate the passion.

 

[mr.davidson]

I believe it is team flair and Hogan combined vesus everyone else.


If you recall the Nash Sting interview wheer Hogan and JJ wre in the ring.

Whne the lights came on Hogan and JJ laid there while Nash and Sting where getting there asses kicked.

It is made 4 u 2 believe that Hogan is against Flair. but i believe they are 2gether

 

[shattered dreams]

Yeah but if you book only for the people who like your product you can't grow and reach people who don't like it and you are stuck in a niche.

Sure Taker vs HBK was great but that was one match not the whole federation, you have to admit that because of the smark there's not one TRUE face in the company that generates passion of the fan and make them want to see him win, just like there's not one TRUE heel that people hate except if it has to do with his sexual orientation.

You can have tweener but your whole federation can't be made of tweener or you will fail to generate the passion.

Not necessarily true. If you book it for the people that like it and do a good job of that style you keep your audience and have a potential to grow. If you book the whole product to the likings of people that are unlikely to watch anyway then that is foolish because you never know if you are going to grow the audience more than you will lose. I never said HBK-Taker was the whole federation. I said it received the best universal reaction of anything WWE has done in years and thus your idea that that people do not like picking their own side seems to be false. I said you cannot book your whole product one way period. WWE has variety and so does TNA. This storyline is not the whole product. I do not think WWE has a clear heel right now anyway and not sure if Cena is somehow not a babyface by your logic because smarks have it out for him. I think TNA does not have that one face but they do have wrestlers that clearly are faces right now. Hardy and Angle, before that RVD. I do not see what TNA not having something that is hard to find has to do with this storyline anyway. Passion is an emotional response, it is hard to elicit passion from cookie cutter storylines. At least if your audience is adults.

 

[I_got_bant_for_idiocy]

Hogan promises a surprise, invites the ECW guys out and says nice things, leaves and they get demolished. Which part was the surprise? You never know. .

true hogan was in the ring praising the ecw guys, than the lights went out and came back on and hogan was gone i forgot if hogan left before or if he was still in the ring when the lights went off???, and last week when nash sting hogan and jeff were in the ring, lights went off all 4 were down but nobody attacked hogan after the lights came back on, they just attacked sting,nash and jeff.. not a single kick to hogan..... hogan joins fortune and goes to war with all the old ppl in this company thats how i seee this storyline going... and we are ment to cheer for the ecw guys cuz dixie is backing them up...

 

[RD_21]

Not necessarily true. If you book it for the people that like it and do a good job of that style you keep your audience and have a potential to grow. If you book the whole product to the likings of people that are unlikely to watch anyway then that is foolish because you never know if you are going to grow the audience more than you will lose. I never said HBK-Taker was the whole federation. I said it received the best universal reaction of anything WWE has done in years and thus your idea that that people do not like picking their own side seems to be false. I said you cannot book your whole product one way period. WWE has variety and so does TNA. This storyline is not the whole product. I do not think WWE has a clear heel right now anyway and not sure if Cena is somehow not a babyface by your logic because smarks have it out for him. I think TNA does not have that one face but they do have wrestlers that clearly are faces right now. Hardy and Angle, before that RVD. I do not see what TNA not having something that is hard to find has to do with this storyline anyway. Passion is an emotional response, it is hard to elicit passion from cookie cutter storylines. At least if your audience is adults.

Cena is a face even if the smark boo him, he has a face character and all. The problem in TNA is that half the audience don't care and the rest is the front row smark, so the smark kind of dictate the way your product goes. And since smarks love the talent of a guy more than his gimmick, they cheer for everyone because everyone or so is good wrestling wise in TNA, that's why I think they need heel who insult the fans and smarks. Like I said have AJ and flair say that they have to stay in this federation because of their contract but can't wait till they are free to go to the WWE and see the reaction they get. Sure Angle and Hardy are face but they don't have a real heel to fight against, to elevate them. I don't want them to book to children, but it's possible to make face and heel to adult, I just showed one way they could do it but there's more.

 

[King Patrick Star]

After yesterday’s episode, I have come to the conclusion that TNA is in fact doing the Federation / Alliance Invasion angle. Take a look at the sides.

TNA – Fourtune – made up of TNA Originals, including Abyss to a certain extent
WWE – Hogan’s Fatal Four – made up of ex-WWE Stars
WCW – Wolfpac – made up of Sting and Nash, but I have a feeling there will be more joining the Black and Red, maybe Jarrett.
ECW – EV 2.0 – made up of ECW Originals

Now I know it’s pretty much everyone vs. Fourtune, but in the WWF Invasion angle, it was everyone vs. the Home Team. It’s not a straight up us vs. them storyline, which makes it so much better. I like where this is going and the dynamic of having somewhat of a 4 sided war really interests me. The fact that the lines are blurred is what makes this intriguing.

Now, the question of who we are meant to cheer for. That would depend on what kind of a fan you are. Are you a TNA fan, a WWE fan, a WCW fan, or an ECW fan?? I think that’s how TNA is trying to portray it.

 

[johnbragg]

But it just all feels backwards. I will 100% be behind Fortune, against EV 2.0. I wouldn't mind Fortune eventually being known as the guys who got rid of the EV 2.0 guys.

Logic would indicate that, after Fourtune runs EV2 out of TNA, they start clashing with the Old Lions of (mostly) WCW, the guys who are "hanging on too long" but who were, in fact, once huge stars--Nash, Jarrett (pretend), Sting, and Hogan. The Old Lions want to teach these young punks some Respect for the Business, the Young Guns want to take over and make their own names. Mix in the element that a lot of the Young Guns have been in TNA for longer than Hogan, Bischoff, Flair, RVD and Hardy and you have the basis for mildly complex storytelling.

The best villains have a point, have something that makes them either sympathetic or, in a twisted way, right. Luthor isn't completely wrong--Superman COULD wipe out humanity. Magneto isn't completely wrong--mutants are misunderstood and often persecuted. Dr Doom seeks power, largely as a means to the end of rescuing his gypsy mother from the demons who she had to sell her soul to to save her boy.

More to the point, Mr McMahon (at his best) does what he has to do to build the company that keeps us all entertained and his wrestlers all out of high school gyms and fairgrounds.

Vince Russo somehow thinks he can book Impact! like he's writing a cheap Quentin Tarantino knock-off screenplay.

The problem with that analogy is that Tarantino doesn't leave plot elements unresolved, saying "Fuck it, it's just a movie." Russo often seems to have the attitude, "Fuck it, it's only wrestling. It doesn't have to make sense."

 

[johnbragg]

I know that TNA may be going for the everything is grey, pick a side and chose who you side and having a split audience could work for TNA but we all know that they don't have that luxury in the Impact zone.

They could do it in the Impact Zone, if they did it in a way that made any sense. The whole key to shades-of-grey is you have to have an axis of conflict to replace/compete with straight heel/face, good/evil. They hinted at that with EV2 vs Fourtune, with the conflict axis being "Longtime TNA Originals vs Old ECW Veterans." Both sides have a legitimate point--EV2.0 claims to have paid the dues in blood to get where they are, Fourtune counters that Fourtune built TNA and EV2 paid dues somewhere else that closed down, and that this is AJs'/Beer Money's/Morgan's/Samoa Joe's house. That has all the ingredients for a company-wide theme, New Blood vs Old Veterans mixed with Invaders vs Our Guys

A family wandering into the Impact Zone could grasp that conflict and decide where they stood pretty quickly. WWE Refugees like Angle, Hardy, and Anderson could be "tweeners" in that conflict--they're not TNA Originals, obviously, but they didn't come to TNA to take over, blah blah blach.

The problem is that at the same time, you have a Jarrett-Hogan vs Sting-Nash feud. The only vague reason is that Sting and Nash want to hold on to spotlight while Jarrett and Hogan want to move on to support the younger guys. (Is that even what Sting is doing?)

Except that Hogan is very supportive of RVD and, by association, EV2. So Sting and Nash should take a step back and let, er, Tommy Dreamer and Sabu shine?

If they wanted to play Hogan as the old-time face, he could be the one suspending Fourtune, "more in sorrow than in anger" "you guys have a valid point, but you made it the wrong way," like a high school principal who has to suspend the star quarterback for getting in a fight defending his girlfriend.

And exactly WTF is Abyss doing?

Are you a TNA fan, a WWE fan, a WCW fan, or an ECW fan?? I think that’s how TNA is trying to portray it.

Are you a TNA fan,

Then you like Fourtune. Since this is TNA TV, they should logically be the faces, defending their turf and their company from money-grubbing, spotlight-hogging interlopers.

a WWE fan,

Then you're cheering for John Cena and Rey Mysterio. By this logic, Angle Hardy Anderson and maybe Pope should all be clear cut heels, giving promos like Nash's "I'm here for the money" gimmick or Foley's "Forgive Me Uncle Eric" ECW work.

a WCW fan,

TNA has been wheeling out Nash, Sting and now Hogan for a long time now, and "WCW Fan" has not been heard from. HAving a faction of ex-WCW stars take over TNA is not a new idea--it was called the Main Event Mafia, and even then it needed Kurt Angle to be watchable.

OK, the Angle thing was a cheap shot. But the idea that a WCW faction will help TNA grow its audience has been tried, and tried, and tried. It's not happening.

or an ECW fan??

I think that even diehard ECW fans realize that their heroes aren't top notch talent anymore. And how many serious ECW fans are out there, as opposed to Johnny-come-lately wannabes (like me)? Gerweck.net's ratings archive seems to be shot, but ECW on TNN didn't get much better ratings than TNA, and that was 10 years, a great reunion show in 2005, a good followup and an attempt at an ECW rebirth ago. Dreamer and Raven beating each other with sticks is not a main event attraction in 2010, no matter how awesome and well-crafted the story was 10-15 years ago.

 

[Mr Jones]

One word sums up Bischoff and Hogan: LAZY!

Those two operate from the "old world" mentality of doing business in wrestling, where they assumed that they just get in the ring and let their "people" handle their business, which is not only lazy but it's also bad for business.

Look, there are only 3 companies that distribute wrestling on a mass international level, with the pickings being that slim, wrestlers have to realize that regardless how LEGENDARY or ICONIC like they might perceive themselves to be, to the company they're just another "wrestler", and wrestlers come a dime a dozen.

I think it's fucking hilarious that it took the TNA roster years to realize that the company is becoming a rest haven for ex-WWE wrestlers, ex-WCW wrestlers, and are currently pushing the ECW OGs. If Dixie had stopped with her "look at me" attitude and paid attention to what the WWE was doing by pushing their homegrown and young talent, they might not be in the situation that she and so many of the TNA Originals find themselves in....................DISCONTENT, DYSFUNCTIONAL CAREERS.

While Hogan and Bischoff laugh their way to the bank.